Zimmerman - Guilty of Murder or Self Defense

[BLS 314]

FYI - This was my ORIGINAL post regarding this case when it first came out.

 

 

Bad shoot and likely should be prosecuted.

 

 

 

Just a simple poll.

 

To me, it's obvious the evidence suggests he was beaten to the point he feared for his life.

He has cuts and a broken nose, etc.

 

Martin has bloody knuckles; Zimmerman did not (pictures are out there on the web if you wanna search)

 

Every piece of evidence backs Zimmerman's story (IMO).

 

But I realize some don't share my opinion. So in this thread, just vote...is he guilty of murder or not?

 

If you want to give a supporting argument, feel free.

 

NOTE: I'm not saying whether he'll be found guilty or not...that's a different story entirely.

[IGotWorms 4,059]

I think this would be a better pole at the end of trial.

 

Also the pole should probably include a less-than-murder option. Manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter.

[OldMaid 2,133]

Just a simple poll.

 

To me, it's obvious the evidence suggests he was beaten to the point he feared for his life.

He has cuts and a broken nose, etc.

 

Martin has bloody knuckles; Zimmerman did not (pictures are out there on the web if you wanna search)

 

Every piece of evidence backs Zimmerman's story (IMO).

 

But I realize some don't share my opinion. So in this thread, just vote...is he guilty of murder or not?

 

If you want to give a supporting argument, feel free.

 

NOTE: I'm not saying whether he'll be found guilty or not...that's a different story entirely.

 

I'm not sure I can justify shooting someone over a broken nose. Plenty of guys can take an asswhooping without the need to shoot someone.

[BLS 314]

I'm not sure I can justify shooting someone over a broken nose. Plenty of guys can take an asswhooping without the need to shoot someone.

 

Well, that's understandable. I'm simply asking if you think he's guilty of murder or not.

[BLS 314]

I think this would be a better pole at the end of trial.

 

Also the pole should probably include a less-than-murder option. Manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter.

Well, I kind of wanted to do it now before all of the evidence is out, so we can sort of see where it goes as more comes forward.

 

Duly Noted. Will add 'Manslaughter' as an option.

[IGotWorms 4,059]

BTW, here's what prosecutors had to say in opening statements:

 

5. There is no evidence that Martin actually attacked Zimmerman. Despite Zimmerman’s injuries — he had cuts on his head and a broken, bloodied nose — none of his blood or DNA was on Martin. “He didn’t have bruised knuckles. He didn’t have swollen hands. The only injury to his hand that was capable of being photographed was a small abrasion on his left ring finger. Trayvon Martin was right handed. That was the only injury to his hands.” Guy said.

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/06/24/trayvon-martin-trial-the-prosecution-opens/#ixzz2XNySXfHt

 

 

We'll have to see if the evidence actually backs that up though.

[OldMaid 2,133]

Well, that's understandable. I'm simply asking if you think he's guilty of murder or not.

Not premeditated murder... maybe some lesser charge, though. But then again, I'll admit to not knowing the entire story. I just know what I've read here.

[5-Points 3,578]

I think he acted in self defense. Was deadly force necessary? IDK.

[IGotWorms 4,059]

Not premeditated murder... maybe some lesser charge, though. But then again, I'll admit to not knowing the entire story. I just know what I've read here.

 

He was not charged with premeditated murder. He was charged with Murder Two, AKA "depraved heart" murder. Florida law defines it as:

 

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree

 

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

 

 

Back in the day of common law, murder two was a killing without premeditation but evincing an "abandoned and malignant heart". Depraved-heart murder is basically the same idea.

[Voltaire 5,322]

Zimmerman seems like a good guy but even if his story holds up, he handled the situation poorly all around and as a result killed an innocent kid. You shouldn't get to walk away from that.

 

I would love to know for sure who's voice it was on that 9/11 call but what the experts presented didn't rise to the judge's standards of what constitute's conclusive proof.

[SUXBNME 1,521]

Guilty of being an idiot that through his own actions put himself in a position that no good could come from.

[OldMaid 2,133]

He was not charged with premeditated murder. He was charged with Murder Two, AKA "depraved heart" murder. Florida law defines it as:

 

 

 

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

 

 

Back in the day of common law, murder two was a killing without premeditation but evincing an "abandoned and malignant heart". Depraved-heart murder is basically the same idea.

Since I wasn't there, it's kinda hard to make a determination. My instinct is that Zimmerman might have overreacted, as per what I stated earlier. But then again... at what point is it ok if you're getting your ass whooped to use deadly force?

[IGotWorms 4,059]

Since I wasn't there, it's kinda hard to make a determination. My instinct is that Zimmerman might overreacted, as per what I stated earlier. But then again... at what point is it ok if you're getting your ass whooped to use deadly force?

 

My case for manslaughter, or perhaps involuntary manslaughter, is that he instigated the confrontation by following Martin, even when he was told by neighborhood watch training people that he shouldn't and by the 911 operator in this particular instance that "we don't need you to do that." I think Martin really would have wanted to kill or seriously injure Zimmerman in order for him to be able to use deadly force without culpability, and I don't buy Zimmerman's story that Martin said "you're going to die tonight" and so forth. It isn't credible in my mind and we'll have to see how he holds up on the stand (if he takes the stand, which he almost certainly should not).

 

The case for murder two really hinges on whose voice it is on the tape and who had the upper hand at the time of the shot. I still think it was Zimmerman but the evidence is not such that it is beyond a reasonable doubt. With no expert testimony on voice recognition I think you're left with plenty of doubt on the tape. The eyewitnesses who said Zimmerman was on top were shaky at best and were impeached pretty well by the defense.

 

The other evidence the prosecution has is that Zimmerman did not follow suspicious people before, knowing that it wasn't a good idea, but that he did follow Martin in this instance because he was frustrated of people getting away before and so he "had it in" for Martin in this case. Again, it's not enough to get beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

So ultimately, at this point, I am expecting a conviction on manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter. However I would not be surprised by an acquittal, and also we haven't even heard from the defense yet which could change things. Also I suppose it's possible the prosecution introduces some really compelling ballistics evidence, though I think we would have heard about it if it was out there.

[Voltaire 5,322]

Well, I kind of wanted to do it now before all of the evidence is out, so we can sort of see where it goes as more comes forward.

 

Duly Noted. Will add 'Manslaughter' as an option.

I was going to hold off on voting, but I now see that defeats your intent so I'll roll with murder for now. I like that the option of manslaughter is there though as I may change later.

 

I doubt I'd let Zimmerman walk away with anything lighter than that. Even if the kid hid and jumped him, the kid had done nothing wrong and was being stalked by some stranger for no good reason.

 

I can understand Martin wanting to beat Zimmerman's ass. I'd feel the same way if someone was stalking me. Meanwhile, I can't understand Zimmerman. He doesn't know if the kid is guilty or innocent, he took himself too seriously, caused a confrontation and killed an unarmed innocent kid over a massive misunderstanding of his own creation.

 

In the end, he could have pointed the gun and given the kid a chance to back down, he didn't need to pull the trigger. We don't know who was screaming on the tape, but if it was Zimmerman, (which I seriously doubt) there was no hesitation between the screaming ending and the gunshot firing. So even assuming Zimmerman's story holds up, there was no option for Martin to back down.

[BLS 314]

Since I wasn't there, it's kinda hard to make a determination. My instinct is that Zimmerman might have overreacted, as per what I stated earlier. But then again... at what point is it ok if you're getting your ass whooped to use deadly force?

 

My gut says Zimmerman screwed up somewhere along the line. He either confronted the kid, or lost his awareness and was blind-sided.

 

Regardless of whether you believe me or not, I'm somewhat of an expert in the legal aspects of self defense.

Getting your asswhooped is not grounds for use of deadly force, however, if you fear for your life, you can escalate force to lethal levels.

Of course, you will be burdened to prove that fear of life (or great bodily harm....which usually equates to permanent or long-term disfigurement).

 

While Zimmerman's post-shooting status doesn't look like fear of death or great bodily harm, you do NOT have to wait until you are near death to use lethal force.

 

Considering Martin had NO damage to him other than the gunshot wound, it's pretty obvious he was kicking Zimmerman's ass.

If you're bouncing my head off the pavement (which Zimmerman states, and evidence supports), you're getting shot because one strong enough hit puts me out.

[5-Points 3,578]

 

My case for manslaughter, or perhaps involuntary manslaughter, is that he instigated the confrontation by following Martin, even when he was told by neighborhood watch training people that he shouldn't and by the 911 operator in this particular instance that "we don't need you to do that." I think Martin really would have wanted to kill or seriously injure Zimmerman in order for him to be able to use deadly force without culpability, and I don't buy Zimmerman's story that Martin said "you're going to die tonight" and so forth. It isn't credible in my mind and we'll have to see how he holds up on the stand (if he takes the stand, which he almost certainly should not).

 

The case for murder two really hinges on whose voice it is on the tape and who had the upper hand at the time of the shot. I still think it was Zimmerman but the evidence is not such that it is beyond a reasonable doubt. With no expert testimony on voice recognition I think you're left with plenty of doubt on the tape. The eyewitnesses who said Zimmerman was on top were shaky at best and were impeached pretty well by the defense.

 

The other evidence the prosecution has is that Zimmerman did not follow suspicious people before, knowing that it wasn't a good idea, but that he did follow Martin in this instance because he was frustrated of people getting away before and so he "had it in" for Martin in this case. Again, it's not enough to get beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

So ultimately, at this point, I am expecting a conviction on manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter. However I would not be surprised by an acquittal, and also we haven't even heard from the defense yet which could change things. Also I suppose it's possible the prosecution introduces some really compelling ballistics evidence, though I think we would have heard about it if it was out there.

Do you think the Prosecution's "star witness" stating Trayvon called Zimmerman a "creepy ass cracka" shortly before the incident bodes well for their theory that Trayvon was an innocent young man unfairly targeted by a vigilante racist?

[BunnysBastatrds 2,465]

I think two shitheads were I'm the wrong place at the wrong time. Manslaughter.

[OldMaid 2,133]

My gut says Zimmerman screwed up somewhere along the line. He either confronted the kid, or lost his awareness and was blind-sided.

 

Regardless of whether you believe me or not, I'm somewhat of an expert in the legal aspects of self defense.

Getting your asswhooped is not grounds for use of deadly force, however, if you fear for your life, you can escalate force to lethal levels.

Of course, you will be burdened to prove that fear of life (or great bodily harm....which usually equates to permanent or long-term disfigurement).

 

While Zimmerman's post-shooting status doesn't look like fear of death or great bodily harm, you do NOT have to wait until you are near death to use lethal force.

 

Considering Martin had NO damage to him other than the gunshot wound, it's pretty obvious he was kicking Zimmerman's ass.

If you're bouncing my head off the pavement (which Zimmerman states, and evidence supports), you're getting shot because one strong enough hit puts me out.

See, this is where it gets murky, for me. By law, he might have had a justification for shooting Martin, but to me it seems like overkill. No pun intended.

[Voltaire 5,322]

Do you think the Prosecution's "star witness" stating Trayvon called Zimmerman a "creepy ass cracka" shortly before the incident bodes well for their theory that Trayvon was an innocent young man unfairly targeted by a vigilante racist?

I think 'creepy ass cracka' is an accurate description of describing somebody stalking him for mysterious reasons.

[IGotWorms 4,059]

Do you think the Prosecution's "star witness" stating Trayvon called Zimmerman a "creepy ass cracka" shortly before the incident bodes well for their theory that Trayvon was an innocent young man unfairly targeted by a vigilante racist?

 

Ahh, our first poster with a clear axe to grind in this thread.

 

I don't think she was a strong witness, obviously. But no, I don't think she sinks the prosecution's case altogether. The substance of her testimony, if credited by the jury (possibly a big "if"), was that Zimmerman initiated the physical altercation.

[5-Points 3,578]

I think 'creepy ass cracka' is an accurate description of describing somebody stalking him for mysterious reasons.

A neighborhood watch captain keeping watch over a neighborhood isn't mysterious. Obviously, TM wouldn't know who the neighbors were, he wasn't from there. However, that speaks more to TM's state of mind than GZ's at the time in my opinion.

[5-Points 3,578]

 

Ahh, our first poster with a clear axe to grind in this thread.

 

I don't think she was a strong witness, obviously. But no, I don't think she sinks the prosecution's case altogether. The substance of her testimony, if credited by the jury (possibly a big "if"), was that Zimmerman initiated the physical altercation

.

Dude, my first post questioned the use of deadly force.

 

 

ETA: I thought the defense did a pretty good job of bringing her credibility into question by pointing out her numerous lies. Why wouldn't she also lie about TM saying "get off..get off"?

[IGotWorms 4,059]

Dude, my first post questioned the use of deadly force.

 

OK. Well, I don't think Trayvon's friend was a good witness but really the important part is what happened while she was on the phone with him. If the jury thinks she is telling the truth, and they trust her ability to understand and accurately recount what was going on (she didn't seem like any kind of genius, I'm just saying), then I think that is damaging to Zimmerman despite the "cracker" slur.

 

'Course, she is supposed to go back on the stand tomorrow morning, and I would not discount the possibility of a meltdown on her part. It's certainly what the defense attorneys are hoping for and trying to goad her in to.

[BLS 314]

 

In the end, he could have pointed the gun and given the kid a chance to back down, he didn't need to pull the trigger.

 

There is absolutely NO way of knowing that.

[BLS 314]

 

Ahh, our first poster with a clear axe to grind in this thread.

 

I don't think she was a strong witness, obviously. But no, I don't think she sinks the prosecution's case altogether. The substance of her testimony, if credited by the jury (possibly a big "if"), was that Zimmerman initiated the physical altercation.

 

She was a horrible witness for the prosecution. I mean, let's be honest; West got her to ADMIT, on the stand (twice I might add) that she lied during her earlier deposition because she didn't want to waste any more time.

 

Combined with her 'ghetto' speak and general inability to understand a simple line of questioning, I guarantee the jury pretty much dismissed her entire testimony.

[Voltaire 5,322]

 

There is absolutely NO way of knowing that.

Did not the screaming on the 911 tape end the exact moment the trigger was pulled?

[5-Points 3,578]

 

OK. Well, I don't think Trayvon's friend was a good witness but really the important part is what happened while she was on the phone with him. If the jury thinks she is telling the truth, and they trust her ability to understand and accurately recount what was going on (she didn't seem like any kind of genius, I'm just saying), then I think that is damaging to Zimmerman despite the "cracker" slur.

 

'Course, she is supposed to go back on the stand tomorrow morning, and I would not discount the possibility of a meltdown on her part. It's certainly what the defense attorneys are hoping for and trying to goad her in to.

I honestly don't think she did the State any favors today. Like you said, she'll be back on the stand tomorrow (much to her consternation ) but if they can't establish some sort of credibility with her, they're gonna have to hope for a sympathetic jury.

[Voltaire 5,322]

A neighborhood watch captain keeping watch over a neighborhood isn't mysterious. Obviously, TM wouldn't know who the neighbors were, he wasn't from there. However, that speaks more to TM's state of mind than GZ's at the time in my opinion.

No, but you're assuming Trayvon Martin can reads minds and/or was familiar or aware with the neighborhood watch.

 

A conversation that has never taken place in human history: "Son, this community has a neighborhood watch so don't walk home with skittles."

 

Zimmerman's actions wouldn't be mysterious to 80-95% of the neighborhood residents who know him. But he would certainly be mysterious to a visitor he didn't know and was following. If it was me he was following, I don't know I'd respond since I've never been in that situation, but I may well give him the same treatment TM gave him.

[5-Points 3,578]

No, but you're assuming Trayvon Martin can reads minds and/or was familiar or aware with the neighborhood watch.

 

A conversation that has never taken place in human history: "Son, this community has a neighborhood watch so don't walk home with skittles."

 

Zimmerman's actions wouldn't be mysterious to 80-95% of the neighborhood residents who know him. But he would certainly be mysterious to a visitor he didn't know and was following. If it was me he was following, I don't know I'd respond since I've never been in that situation, but I may well give him the same treatment TM gave him.

The prosecution's witness admitted that TM initiated the confrontation by asking GZ "Why you followin' me?" According to her, that was the first contact the two had. Couple that with her testimony that TM referred to GZ as a "creepy ass cracka" and a jury might just decide that TM was looking for a fight.

[IGotWorms 4,059]

The prosecution's witness admitted that TM initiated the confrontation by asking GZ "Why you followin' me?" According to her, that was the first contact the two had. Couple that with her testimony that TM referred to GZ as a "creepy ass cracka" and a jury might just decide that TM was looking for a fight.

 

I think your bias is showing through again. The girl's testimony establishes that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Now whether the jury credits her testimony at all is a different question.

[5-Points 3,578]

I'm not sure I can justify shooting someone over a broken nose. Plenty of guys can take an asswhooping without the need to shoot someone.

Some people have more experience with catching a beat down than others. It may be hard to believe but there are some people that just don't like me. There's been more than one occasion in the past when a group of them decided to express their collective displeasure with my sparkling personality in a less than cordial way. I wouldn't have considered pulling a gun in any of those situations but I didn't feel my life was in danger.

 

Zimmerman on the other hand was described as "soft" by his martial arts instructor. He may not have had the confidence in his own ability to physically defend himself or the blatant disregard for self some people might have. In which case, he may have panicked and fired after the first punch to the nose. If Zimmerman's story is true and there was a struggle for control of the weapon, all bets are off.

[5-Points 3,578]

 

I think your bias is showing through again. The girl's testimony establishes that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Now whether the jury credits her testimony at all is a different question.

I didn't see it that way. Granted, I was at work watching it out of the corner of my eye on my laptop with one ear bud in but I thought she said the first words she heard exchanged between the two was TM saying "why you followin me"? To me that is initiating contact. Things escalated from there.

 

Agreed on her testimony. That had to be tough to watch for the State. It's not looking good for murder 2, but manslaughter is still a definite possibility at this point IMO.

[BLS 314]

Did not the screaming on the 911 tape end the exact moment the trigger was pulled?

 

I don't understand the correlation. My point was you stated he didn't need to pull the trigger, and that he could have pointed it at him and "gave him a chance".

 

My point is you don't know that Martin would have stopped if Zimmerman just showed him the gun.

[phillybear 366]

It's tragic that the court system is putting Zimmerman through this dog and pony show, robbing him of his life. Martin was a monster, a gang member, a thief, a drug user, a pariah on society. Zimmerman did the world a favor by putting that piece of sh!t 6 feet under and saving tax payers the money that Martin's incarceration would have cost. Martin was guilty of attempted murder and Zimmerman did the right thing by shooting him.

[NewbieJr 541]

I think it was self-defense. He was scared and the guy was on top of him. I think this verdict is an important one in letting thug criminals know that they're taking their own life in their hands when they put others at risk.

[RLLD 4,256]

I think he actions provoked a response from the kid, I think the kid was really....REALLY stupid to confront a man in the dark like that who he could tell was essentially stalking him, but some people are simply less intelligent than others.

 

I wish we could truly know just what happened that night, a young kid is dead, and if this guy shot him because he was annoyed or whatever, then he needs to go away for a long time. if he shot the kid because the dumbfock decided to be all tough and get up in his face, still not a good enough reason, but if the kid did come after him, I am good with the outcome.

[BLS 314]

I think it was self-defense. He was scared and the guy was on top of him. I think this verdict is an important one in letting thug criminals know that they're taking their own life in their hands when they put others at risk.

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[phillybear 366]

Turns out 'ole Fatso testified that Martin called Zimmerman a "n*gg*r". Ton of Fun called Zimmerman a "cracker" during her testimony. Being that Fat Ass lied several times during the depositions, which makes her a filthy liar overall, do we believe her as this "star" witness testified as to the racism directed towards Zimmerman.

 

It's becoming so much more clear how this is a total screw job at Zimmerman.

[NewbieJr 541]

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Huh? You don't think a murder conviction sends the signal to thugs that they can attack and the victim can't defend himself with deadly force? A self-defense ruling is a victory for society.

[The Moz 69]

Turns out 'ole Fatso testified that Martin called Zimmerman a "n*gg*r". Ton of Fun called Zimmerman a "cracker" during her testimony. Being that Fat Ass lied several times during the depositions, which makes her a filthy liar overall, do we believe her as this "star" witness testified as to the racism directed towards Zimmerman.

 

It's becoming so much more clear how this is a total screw job at Zimmerman.

You're right it is but I really doubt Zimm's gets off with nothing. People would rather be thought as politically correct than right. From his God awful Lawyer to inner cities around the country being on riot stand-by - there no way Zimmerman is getting a break here. Had he done this to a white guy no one hears about this and he gets off on self defense. This he will be lucky to just serve a few years on Manslaughter.