Matt Walsh update? *UPDATE*

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Let's be clear on this...there are two separate issues here...yes, Belicheat admitted that he taped signals, he had to, since there were tapes that proved it to be so. However, he still lied that he misinterpreted the rules AND he lied about not using them in same game. It was clear from memo's sent to all teams previously that NO TAPING of opposing coaches was allowed AND there is absolutely no benefit to taping an AFC conference championship game "for future scouting". That was and is a lie. This whole Walsh waste of time just served to allow those lies to stand and not bring to light any new lies.

 

Who said that they used it in the same game? I don't think that they were able to take the tapes, compile them and then do something in that game. Did that come out today or did I miss this in the past?

[surferskin 30]

Andy Pettite admitted to doing steroids " a couple of times" no one believes him, but they are glad he was honest about doing it all.

 

Why is it enough for him but not BB?

 

People say if Clemens had done the same thing as Pettite he wouldn't be in the mess he is in.

Sorry, I don't have a clue what you're trying to say.

[jgcrawfish 232]

Who said that they used it in the same game? I don't think that they were able to take the tapes, compile them and then do something in that game. Did that come out today or did I miss this in the past?

 

Was never said, but again, the idea of taping a conference championship game for "future scouting" lends to the idea that they were used for more than just that function. And the NFL would probably be loathe to let something like that come out, because allowing doubt as to the integrity of the 2nd biggest game(s) of the season casts doubt on the whole product. I just believe that the rabbit hole ran deeper than was exposed, but what's done is done, time to move on.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Was never said, but again, the idea of taping a conference championship game for "future scouting" lends to the idea that they were used for more than just that function. And the NFL would probably be loathe to let something like that come out, because allowing doubt as to the integrity of the 2nd biggest game(s) of the season casts doubt on the whole product. I just believe that the rabbit hole ran deeper than was exposed, but what's done is done, time to move on.

 

Gotcha. So you extrapolated and presented them as facts. I just wanted to make sure that I had not missed something.

[jgcrawfish 232]

Gotcha. So you extrapolated and presented them as facts. I just wanted to make sure that I had not missed something.

 

I never said "facts"...the facts are that Goodell does not believe Belicheat's explanation of the cheating and taping someone "for scouting purposes" that you're not going to face again during that season, or perhaps even the next season, is math that doesn't add up.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

I never said "facts"...the facts are that Goodell does not believe Belicheat's explanation of the cheating and taping someone "for scouting purposes" that you're not going to face again during that season, or perhaps even the next season, is math that doesn't add up.

 

From what was shown on the tapes, including the "offensive signals", it appears that they used it to determine player personnel based upon down-and-distance and to match it up with plays called from the legitimate tapes. To speculate that they could take a tape in the first half, compile it (including watching it), decipher the fake signals with the real ones, and then educate the staff on what it all means during halftime or even by the end of the game is a leap of biblical proportions.

 

Further more, the 2002 AFC Championship game would not need to have value just in that game considering that the Patriots knew that they were playing the Steelers in the upcoming season. The fact that they played them in the first game of the 2002 regular season only adds to its value.

[NewbieJr 540]

Pats walk away with even older linebackers, more despised, and sit back atop their lonely pedistal of champions that no one really takes seriously.

 

Fixed.

[GettnHuge 1]

From what was shown on the tapes, including the "offensive signals", it appears that they used it to determine player personnel based upon down-and-distance and to match it up with plays called from the legitimate tapes. To speculate that they could take a tape in the first half, compile it (including watching it), decipher the fake signals with the real ones, and then educate the staff on what it all means during halftime or even by the end of the game is a leap of biblical proportions.

 

Further more, the 2002 AFC Championship game would not need to have value just in that game considering that the Patriots knew that they were playing the Steelers in the upcoming season. The fact that they played them in the first game of the 2002 regular season only adds to its value.

 

When the camera focker was busted in the Jets game, he was on his way to deliver the tape.

And it was just before halftime.

[DankNuggs 305]

Gotcha. So you extrapolated and presented them as facts. I just wanted to make sure that I had not missed something.

well said....

[DankNuggs 305]

Fixed.

I'll keep my team, you you can keep yours...LOL.... cowboys right?

[cbfalcon 824]

Was never said, but again, the idea of taping a conference championship game for "future scouting" lends to the idea that they were used for more than just that function. And the NFL would probably be loathe to let something like that come out, because allowing doubt as to the integrity of the 2nd biggest game(s) of the season casts doubt on the whole product. I just believe that the rabbit hole ran deeper than was exposed, but what's done is done, time to move on.

 

This should put the rest the debate about using the info in the same game.

 

ESPN

Trey Wingo and Co. devoted significant time during the SportsCenter special trying to figure out whether the Patriots could've gained any benefit in the same games they were illegally taping. Goodell quickly brushed away that line of questioning when he said that Walsh told him that the tapes were turned over to Bill Belichick's reclusive assistant Ernie Adams after games.

[CornKobb 48]

time to let this all go and focus on football imo.......fantasy or not lets not live in the past.

 

its good it was addressed and the pats lost a pick but its over....

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

When the camera focker was busted in the Jets game, he was on his way to deliver the tape.

And it was just before halftime.

 

Not even close. He was still taping and it was the first quarter.

 

Aren't you the same one who thinks that Bush set up 9/11?

[CornKobb 48]

Not even close. He was still taping and it was the first quarter.

 

Aren't you the same one who thinks that Bush set up 9/11?

 

patriot non fan here and agree with u...... Jets need to try and win a game or two and stfu.

 

this is a non issue now.....

[redtodd 7]

Was never said, but again, the idea of taping a conference championship game for "future scouting" lends to the idea that they were used for more than just that function. And the NFL would probably be loathe to let something like that come out, because allowing doubt as to the integrity of the 2nd biggest game(s) of the season casts doubt on the whole product. I just believe that the rabbit hole ran deeper than was exposed, but what's done is done, time to move on.

 

Good job making sh!t up.

[ed_jones 0]

This should put the rest the debate about using the info in the same game.

 

ESPN

 

 

 

QUOTE

Trey Wingo and Co. devoted significant time during the SportsCenter special trying to figure out whether the Patriots could've gained any benefit in the same games they were illegally taping. Goodell quickly brushed away that line of questioning when he said that Walsh told him that the tapes were turned over to Bill Belichick's reclusive assistant Ernie Adams after games.

 

 

Not true, I'll try and find a link but they said on Sportcenter today right after the Goodell press con. that they know of atleast one of the tapes being handed in just before halftime. This stinks of a cover up. The Pats are the most popular team in the NFL right now and Goodell will do anything to make sure that does'nt get damaged.

 

He's such a joke of a Commish, I want Tags back.

[jgcrawfish 232]

From what was shown on the tapes, including the "offensive signals", it appears that they used it to determine player personnel based upon down-and-distance and to match it up with plays called from the legitimate tapes. To speculate that they could take a tape in the first half, compile it (including watching it), decipher the fake signals with the real ones, and then educate the staff on what it all means during halftime or even by the end of the game is a leap of biblical proportions.

 

Further more, the 2002 AFC Championship game would not need to have value just in that game considering that the Patriots knew that they were playing the Steelers in the upcoming season. The fact that they played them in the first game of the 2002 regular season only adds to its value.

 

Right, value if you're cheating...

[edjr 5,585]

Matt Walsh said he never handed over a tape until the end of a game.

 

of course, you'll believe anything bad he said, but nothing good.

[Franknbeans 46]

Dead issue.

[cbfalcon 824]

Not true, I'll try and find a link but they said on Sportcenter today right after the Goodell press con. that they know of atleast one of the tapes being handed in just before halftime. This stinks of a cover up. The Pats are the most popular team in the NFL right now and Goodell will do anything to make sure that does'nt get damaged.

 

He's such a joke of a Commish, I want Tags back.

 

Yes, I would like to see that link please.

 

I have a sense you would believe anything damaging about the Pats, but anything that minimizes their misdeeds is a lie or cover up in your opinion. I may be incorrect in my interpretation however.

 

[ed_jones 0]

Yes, I would like to see that link please.

 

I have a sense you would believe anything damaging about the Pats, but anything that minimizes their misdeeds is a lie or cover up in your opinion. I may be incorrect in my interpretation however.

 

 

 

Looking for a link now. I'm not a Pat hater, quite the oposite. Moss has been one of my favorite players ever since he was in college and in my only dynasty league I have both Moss and Maroney and had B.Watson last year (kinda sucked so I went for an upgrade).

 

My issue is that they got caught and I see way too many Pat fans (not saying it's you) going around boasting like something great happened. They got caught cheating,is that really something to be proud of? We will likely never know the extent of it, but we know it happened. Hopefully this will be the end of it, they have the talent to win without cheating and as such I hope thats what they go with from now on.

[cbfalcon 824]

Looking for a link now. I'm not a Pat hater, quite the oposite. Moss has been one of my favorite players ever since he was in college and in my only dynasty league I have both Moss and Maroney and had B.Watson last year (kinda sucked so I went for an upgrade).

 

My issue is that they got caught and I see way too many Pat fans (not saying it's you) going around boasting like something great happened. They got caught cheating,is that really something to be proud of? We will likely never know the extent of it, but we know it happened. Hopefully this will be the end of it, they have the talent to win without cheating and as such I hope thats what they go with from now on.

 

I don't think I've seen Pats fans acting like they didn't cheat. The consensus is simply that they have already been punished for any and all things that fall under the scope of videotaping signals.

 

Let me ask you this, had Walsh said he rushed down and gave the tapes to BB before halftime, would you have believed him? My bet is yes. But when he says he did it after the game, you don't believe him.

 

And even if they used the info during the same game, who cares? That still falls under the crime of videotaping signals. The crime is the same. That's what people are punished for. The crime. Not so much how they gained from it.

 

A murderer isn't punished based on what they gained. They are punished for the murder.

[DankNuggs 305]

Looking for a link now. I'm not a Pat hater, quite the oposite. Moss has been one of my favorite players ever since he was in college and in my only dynasty league I have both Moss and Maroney and had B.Watson last year (kinda sucked so I went for an upgrade).

 

My issue is that they got caught and I see way too many Pat fans (not saying it's you) going around boasting like something great happened. They got caught cheating,is that really something to be proud of? We will likely never know the extent of it, but we know it happened. Hopefully this will be the end of it, they have the talent to win without cheating and as such I hope thats what they go with from now on.

I think the boasting is a recognition that this spygate thing was just an angle to hate. It really adds little to no value overall, and it is annoying for the peanut gallery to fixate on such an inconsequential and unfortuante circumstance.

 

Obv wish Spygate never happened because it is pretty useless. Nice to see it resolved and people can move forward to jump on the next media driven circus event.

[Sho Nuff 719]

I think the boasting is a recognition that this spygate thing was just an angle to hate. It really adds little to no value overall, and it is annoying for the peanut gallery to fixate on such an inconsequential and unfortuante circumstance.

 

Obv wish Spygate never happened because it is pretty useless. Nice to see it resolved and people can move forward to jump on the next media driven circus event.

 

So useless and inconsequential that BB probably lied about misinterpreting the rules and the NFL handed out the max fine to the coach and organization and took away a draft pick.

 

This is the attitude that people are talking about.

 

It was not just some nothing...despite your denial, it was cheating...plain and simple...it was not just some made up angle for people to "hate" on the Pats. It was real...it happened...they did it....get over it.

[DankNuggs 305]

So useless and inconsequential that BB probably lied about misinterpreting the rules and the NFL handed out the max fine to the coach and organization and took away a draft pick.

 

This is the attitude that people are talking about.

 

It was not just some nothing...despite your denial, it was cheating...plain and simple...it was not just some made up angle for people to "hate" on the Pats. It was real...it happened...they did it....get over it.

I am over it, you aren't.

 

BB "probably' lied..... why not respond to facts instead of conjecture.... you watching that Rams SB walkthrough tape right now?

[Sho Nuff 719]

I am over it, you aren't.

 

BB "probably' lied..... why not respond to facts instead of conjecture.... you watching that Rams SB walkthrough tape right now?

 

Yeah...so over it you are still defending it and basically living in denial of the impact it had.

 

I am responding to the words of the commish who basically said he did not believe BB in saying that he misinterpreted the rules (and judging by the memos that were sent out...it is highly unlikely that BB did not know what he was doing was against the rules...which was backed up by Walsh).

[ed_jones 0]

I don't think I've seen Pats fans acting like they didn't cheat. The consensus is simply that they have already been punished for any and all things that fall under the scope of videotaping signals.

 

Let me ask you this, had Walsh said he rushed down and gave the tapes to BB before halftime, would you have believed him? My bet is yes. But when he says he did it after the game, you don't believe him.

 

And even if they used the info during the same game, who cares? That still falls under the crime of videotaping signals. The crime is the same. That's what people are punished for. The crime. Not so much how they gained from it.

 

A murderer isn't punished based on what they gained. They are punished for the murder.

 

 

Some good points here, although I will say that one patriot fan (redtodd) has been bouncing around these posts putting up happy faces like he just won a gold medal at the Special Olympics.

 

If you are a Pats fan then I definately say you are one of the good ones. Any arguments over Spygate dont mean anything now, the punishment has been handed down and it is'nt gonna change. I continue to say they are one of the best teams in the league and as such have the talent to win of their own accord and dont need to resort to cheating.

 

Here's to hoping they go out and have a great season and (hopefully) meet my Cowboys in the Superbowl. If my Boys win then I would be happy, if the Pats win then I would still be OK because Moss would get his SB ring.

[The Next Generation 10]

Per Rotoworld:

 

Senator Arlen Specter (R-PA) has called for an independent investigation into the Spygate matter.

 

"It's my judgment that there ought to be an impartial investigation, an outside investigation, like the investigation that baseball had with former Sen. George Mitchell," he said. Specter didn't rule out Congressional involvement. Specter says Matt Walsh told him Patriots offensive players would memorize opposing signals during games and relay them to Charlie Weis. With that in mind, Weis would then instruct Tom Brady on the field. Walsh reportedly estimated it helped the Pats anticipate 75% of the defensive plays being called.

Source: Boston Globe

[edjr 5,585]

Yeah...so over it you are still defending it and basically living in denial of the impact it had.

 

I am responding to the words of the commish who basically said he did not believe BB in saying that he misinterpreted the rules (and judging by the memos that were sent out...it is highly unlikely that BB did not know what he was doing was against the rules...which was backed up by Walsh).

 

That's my problem with this whole thing. No one really knows what impact it had.

 

Numerous coaches have admitted they have done the same thing in the past, so what makes you think it wasn't just evening the playing field?

[Sho Nuff 719]

That's my problem with this whole thing. No one really knows what impact it had.

 

Numerous coaches have admitted they have done the same thing in the past, so what makes you think it wasn't just evening the playing field?

 

Because not one other team was ever caught videotaping signals...nor did those coaches admit to video taping signals as the Pats did.

 

Again...why would BB keep using a practice that gave him no real impact? Such a genius would not waste any time with something like that.

[Thornton Melon 544]

Per Rotoworld:

 

Senator Arlen Specter (R-PA) has called for an independent investigation into the Spygate matter.

 

"It's my judgment that there ought to be an impartial investigation, an outside investigation, like the investigation that baseball had with former Sen. George Mitchell," he said. Specter didn't rule out Congressional involvement. Specter says Matt Walsh told him Patriots offensive players would memorize opposing signals during games and relay them to Charlie Weis. With that in mind, Weis would then instruct Tom Brady on the field. Walsh reportedly estimated it helped the Pats anticipate 75% of the defensive plays being called.

Source: Boston Globe

 

 

May the Founding Fathers rise from the dead and b!tch-slap this dooshbag into oblivion.

[edjr 5,585]

Because not one other team was ever caught videotaping signals...nor did those coaches admit to video taping signals as the Pats did.

 

Again...why would BB keep using a practice that gave him no real impact? Such a genius would not waste any time with something like that.

 

No coaches admitted to it, that means it didn't happen, right?

 

You and no one else has any idea how much impact it had. I'm not saying it had none, I'm saying I have no idea and neither do you. You're assuming it helped them a great deal because that's what you want to believe.

 

If you go to vegas and count cards and lose money and you get caught counting cards, are they still going to throw you out? Why would they throw you out if your cheating doesn't even help you? because you cheated.

[OakHeadFootball 1]

Specter: Walsh indicated Jets taped as well

 

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/hashmarks/0-7-1...ed-as-well.html

 

 

[Sho Nuff 719]

No coaches admitted to it, that means it didn't happen, right?

 

You and no one else has any idea how much impact it had. I'm not saying it had none, I'm saying I have no idea and neither do you. You're assuming it helped them a great deal because that's what you want to believe.

 

If you go to vegas and count cards and lose money and you get caught counting cards, are they still going to throw you out? Why would they throw you out if your cheating doesn't even help you? because you cheated.

 

Nobody is saying it did not possibly happen...but at this point...its just your speculation to defend your Pats with no real substance to back up that claim.

 

I don't know how much impact it had...but enough that BB kept doing it even after warned by the NFL. Im assuming it helped him enough to keep risking the consequences.

[edjr 5,585]

Nobody is saying it did not possibly happen...but at this point...its just your speculation to defend your Pats with no real substance to back up that claim.

 

I don't know how much impact it had...but enough that BB kept doing it even after warned by the NFL. Im assuming it helped him enough to keep risking the consequences.

 

I'm not defending the Patriots. They focked up, big time. They were the only ones caught, that is true. Doesn't mean they were the only ones doing it, that's all I'm saying.

[NewbieJr 540]

See, the problem here is this....Patriot fans want everyone to think they got caught cheating and were punished and it should be a forgotten issue. They will adfmit that the cheating might have helped them win the wekk one Jets game, since that's tyeh game that they got caught taping.

 

The rest of teh league, and its fans, want to know the extent of teh cheating. They want to know if their Super Bowl titles were legit. They want to know if their teams could have possibly won those games on a level playing field. They want to know why Bilichick goes from a horrible coach with the Browns to a 'genius' in New England.

 

There are tons of answers that aren't found, yet. That's why Patriot fans want this over, and the rest of the fans, and some very high-up government officials, think it's worth looking deeper into.

[GhostofMeanMachine99 1]

From what was shown on the tapes, including the "offensive signals", it appears that they used it to determine player personnel based upon down-and-distance and to match it up with plays called from the legitimate tapes. To speculate that they could take a tape in the first half, compile it (including watching it), decipher the fake signals with the real ones, and then educate the staff on what it all means during halftime or even by the end of the game is a leap of biblical proportions.

 

Further more, the 2002 AFC Championship game would not need to have value just in that game considering that the Patriots knew that they were playing the Steelers in the upcoming season. The fact that they played them in the first game of the 2002 regular season only adds to its value.

 

 

This was brough up by Mark Shlereth on ESPN.

 

Why tape those specific teams. I believe the only divisional team they taped was Miami. So why tape the other teams if you don't plan on using that tape the very same day?

 

And who's to say they needed tape to decipher every snap in the first half? Many teams script their first 15 plays, and that script typically contains the plays they use to gameplan in the previous week.

 

So they do gain a definite competitive advantage by obtaining signals for game-planned plays AND tendencies in the first 15 plays, they take that data/film, compile it into a report, and have it ready by halftime (or even sooner).

 

And who's to say that data is not being viewed by another party in the coaches' booth, where assistant coaches tend to call the plays? Most coaches do have headsets linked up to the box. Some may even use a cell phone or walkie-talkie.

 

And if the filming wasn't beneficial, why do it multiple times? Why film the offensive signals along with the defensive signals if they're not helping?

 

Shlereth played at a high level for a long time, and he seems to be a pretty fair guy. He thinks their excuses are complete b/s, and I tend to agree with him.

[cbfalcon 824]

See, the problem here is this....Patriot fans want everyone to think they got caught cheating and were punished and it should be a forgotten issue. They will adfmit that the cheating might have helped them win the wekk one Jets game, since that's tyeh game that they got caught taping.

 

The rest of teh league, and its fans, want to know the extent of teh cheating. They want to know if their Super Bowl titles were legit. They want to know if their teams could have possibly won those games on a level playing field. They want to know why Bilichick goes from a horrible coach with the Browns to a 'genius' in New England.

 

There are tons of answers that aren't found, yet. That's why Patriot fans want this over, and the rest of the fans, and some very high-up government officials, think it's worth looking deeper into.

 

That's fair in theory. But reality is the fans that want to see the Pats go down will settle for nothing less. They won't accept anything that doesn't prove the Pats shouldn't have won those titles.

 

In that if the Pats were proven to have cheated in 30 regular season games, you'd think they must have also cheated in the other 50 plus the playoff games. If they were proven to have taped Super Bowl games, but they didn't use that info during the game, and they just filed it away...well, people would still claim BS and demand proof they used the info in that game.

 

I'm not saying none of that stuff happened. It may have. Probably did in fact. But for you to say people want the truth is a lie. People only want confirmation of the outcome they are already rooting for.

[GhostofMeanMachine99 1]

See, the problem here is this....Patriot fans want everyone to think they got caught cheating and were punished and it should be a forgotten issue. They will adfmit that the cheating might have helped them win the wekk one Jets game, since that's tyeh game that they got caught taping.

 

The rest of teh league, and its fans, want to know the extent of teh cheating. They want to know if their Super Bowl titles were legit. They want to know if their teams could have possibly won those games on a level playing field. They want to know why Bilichick goes from a horrible coach with the Browns to a 'genius' in New England.

 

There are tons of answers that aren't found, yet. That's why Patriot fans want this over, and the rest of the fans, and some very high-up government officials, think it's worth looking deeper into.

 

Exactly. The cheating has ramifications because of the NFL's exempt status. Baseball got the government treatment, too, because of their exempt status. If the government is allowing them to keep their exempt status, and there is known cheating going on, they'll gladly pull it at the drop of a dime.

 

Both sports have been given preferential treatment, and they're both focking it up by cheats and liars.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

This was brough up by Mark Shlereth on ESPN.

 

Why tape those specific teams. I believe the only divisional team they taped was Miami. So why tape the other teams if you don't plan on using that tape the very same day?

 

And who's to say they needed tape to decipher every snap in the first half? Many teams script their first 15 plays, and that script typically contains the plays they use to gameplan in the previous week.

 

So they do gain a definite competitive advantage by obtaining signals for game-planned plays AND tendencies in the first 15 plays, they take that data/film, compile it into a report, and have it ready by halftime (or even sooner).

 

And who's to say that data is not being viewed by another party in the coaches' booth, where assistant coaches tend to call the plays? Most coaches do have headsets linked up to the box. Some may even use a cell phone or walkie-talkie.

 

And if the filming wasn't beneficial, why do it multiple times? Why film the offensive signals along with the defensive signals if they're not helping?

 

Shlereth played at a high level for a long time, and he seems to be a pretty fair guy. He thinks their excuses are complete b/s, and I tend to agree with him.

 

Mark Schlereth was on one of those SB teams (Denver) that was circumventing the salary cap, found to have been cheating, and was punished (much less than the Pats). Funny, that he was not asking for an investigation to determine how much it helped them back then. Mark Schlereth is also the guy who is a shadow of his former self with respect to size and was probably doing steroids. I want to know if he was doing steroids.

 

Your facts are out of whack. The Pats taped the Bills, Dolphins and Jets (every team in their division). They taped people in their conference that they may play down the road. There is no evidence from Walsh or anyone else that the Patriots were able to use those tapes in the same game. Again, to make those leaps are completely baseless.

 

If Congress wants to waste our money on this issue, then I sure hope that they go at it better than they have done everything else in this country. I hope that they get every team for every bit of cheating and not just videotaping. I don't think that the NFL and its fans are going to like what they find.