Self Defense Killing in Florida...Geeks got an opinion?

[nikki2200 4]

Photo of Zimmerman's bloody head released. Looks like your conviction may be overturned.

 

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/investigators&id=8626632

 

That link is to a story on a pre-paid debit card scam.

[Strike 3,979]

That link is to a story on a pre-paid debit card scam.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg

 

http://gma.yahoo.com/warning-graphic-photo-possible-evidence-shows-george-zimmermans-050145810--abc-news-topstories.html

[IGotWorms 3,315]

If I was getting beat up so bad that I had to kill a man to save myself, I expect that I would need immediate medical care. Zimmerman did not.

 

We're talking about taking a man's life here. As William Munny would say, you're taking away all he's ever had and all he's ever gonna have. It's not something a person should do unless they absolutely have to.

[parrot 789]

If I was getting beat up so bad that I had to kill a man to save myself, I expect that I would need immediate medical care. Zimmerman did not.

 

 

He was treated at the scene according the police reports.

[TimmySmith 2,782]

There is no question that having wounds that are consistent with his statement to the police helps Zimmerman's case. The statement from the investigator that they had no evidence that contradicted that is even worse. I still don't think that it is enough to say that there is enough for "reasonable doubt". You have to wait until all testimony is given.

There is not going to be a trial. Right now the prosecutor is going to the defense on her knees and begging them to take a plea. My guess is it will be assault with a deadly weapon, no jail time.

[Strike 3,979]

He was treated at the scene according the police reports.

 

He also apparently went to the doctor's the next day. His lawyer offered up medical reports at the hearing today. They should be telling.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

There is not going to be a trial. Right now the prosecutor is going to the defense on her knees and begging them to take a plea. My guess is it will be assault with a deadly weapon, no jail time.

 

I think involuntary manslaughter is the minimum.

[Strike 3,979]

If I was getting beat up so bad that I had to kill a man to save myself, I expect that I would need immediate medical care. Zimmerman did not.

 

 

Oh please. When you're in a fight you don't know how badly you're hurt.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

He also apparently went to the doctor's the next day. His lawyer offered up medical reports at the hearing today. They should be telling.

 

Of course he went the next day. It was a CYA move. Any defense attorney on the planet would tell his client to do that.

 

But I am interested to see what the medical reports say. My guess is the wounds were not at all severe but we'll have to wait and see.

[TimmySmith 2,782]

He was treated at the scene according the police reports.

Everything post of his/hers is factless. I find it interesting that he/she claims to be a lawyer.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

Everything post of his/hers is factless. I find it interesting that he/she claims to be a lawyer.

 

Was there a bandage on Zimmerman's head when he arrived at the police station?

[parrot 789]

But I am interested to see what the medical reports say. My guess is the wounds were not at all severe but we'll have to wait and see.

 

So, if, in fact, a guy is beating your head off the sidewalk, how severe do you have to let the injuries get before you defend yourself? I guess you're supposed to wait until you're concussed or maybe unconscious?

[Strike 3,979]

Was there a bandage on Zimmerman's head when he arrived at the police station?

 

This is from 3 minutes after the shooting:

 

http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg

[IGotWorms 3,315]

So, if, in fact, a guy is beating your head off the sidewalk, how severe do you have let the injuries get before you defend yourself? I guess you're supposed to wait until you're concussed or maybe unconscious?

 

Well if I feel the need to produce a deadly weapon and the other guy starts begging for his life, I'd probably assume that it was over and that point and walk away. But a person blinded by rage might pull the trigger anyway even though the supposed aggressor is subdued, which is what Zimmerman likely did.

[Strike 3,979]

Well if I feel the need to produce a deadly weapon and the other guy starts begging for his life, I'd probably assume that it was over and that point and walk away. But a person blinded by rage might pull the trigger anyway even though the supposed aggressor is subdued, which is what Zimmerman likely did.

 

Wouldn't you call this statement speculative, in pretty much every way?

[parrot 789]

Well if I feel the need to produce a deadly weapon and the other guy starts begging for his life, I'd probably assume that it was over and that point and walk away. But a person blinded by rage might pull the trigger anyway even though the supposed aggressor is subdued, which is what Zimmerman likely did.

 

Nonresponsive. You sure gave up on the relevancy of the severity of the injuries in a hurry, so maybe that's progress.

[Mungwater 588]

Well if I feel the need to produce a deadly weapon and the other guy starts begging for his life, I'd probably assume that it was over and that point and walk away. But a person blinded by rage might pull the trigger anyway even though the supposed aggressor is subdued, which is what Zimmerman likely did.

 

You forgot the part where he made a speech before ahooting him then saying "see you in hell" then shoot him. Did he out his sunglasses on and walked away slowly?

[IGotWorms 3,315]

Wouldn't you call this statement speculative, in pretty much every way?

 

How so?

 

We know with reasonable certainty that the voice screaming for help is not Zimmerman. So unless you think there was a third person that means it was Martin.

 

The screams go on for several seconds before The shot. Do you think Martin was screaming for his life while mercilessly attacking Zimmerman? That would be stupid. So it folows that Martin was subdued for at least several seconds before Zimmerman chose to take his life.

 

Only way I see Martin still being justified is if Martin went for the gun. From those bone-chilling screams of helpless terror on the tape, it sure didn't sound to me like he was going to make an aggressive move at that point.

[DankNuggs 305]

Wouldn't you call this statement speculative, in pretty much every way?

its not what you know, its what you can prove...

[IGotWorms 3,315]

Nonresponsive. You sure gave up on the relevancy of the severity of the injuries in a hurry, so maybe that's progress.

 

How was my answer "nonresponsive"? You asked at what point I would feel the need to myself. I said the need to defend myself with fatal force would surely end when the supposed attacker was subdued. Question answered.

[Strike 3,979]

How so?

 

We know with reasonable certainty that the voice screaming for help is not Zimmerman. So unless you think there was a third person that means it was Martin.

 

The screams go on for several seconds before The shot. Do you think Martin was screaming for his life while mercilessly attacking Zimmerman? That would be stupid. So it folows that Martin was subdued for at least several seconds before Zimmerman chose to take his life.

 

Only way I see Martin still being justified is if Martin went for the gun. From those bone-chilling screams of helpless terror on the tape, it sure didn't sound to me like he was going to make an aggressive move at that point.

 

We don't know anything you've just stated. A news organization had a voice analysis done. That's your evidence???? You sound like the investigator that testified this morning.

[Strike 3,979]

its not what you know, its what you can prove...

 

Not really sure where you're going with this. Nothing Worms has posted is either known or provable, as far as I can tell.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

Worms is just an idiot pretending to be an attorney on a lightly trafficked FFB messageboard.

 

Sad.

[Voltaire 4,562]

All I ever wanted was a trial so we can see the evidence for ourselves. You can't just follow and shoot a "suspicious looking" kid and then walk away without raising eyebrows.

 

Anyone can get away with murder by using the same method that Uncle Jimbo pioneered for getting around hunting laws.

[DankNuggs 305]

 

Only way I see [Zimm] sic still being justified is if Martin went for the gun. From those bone-chilling screams of helpless terror on the tape, it sure didn't sound to me like he was going to make an aggressive move at that point.

the threshold isn't your own moral compass, its whether he had a right to be there, was acting within the law, and reasonably felt his life was in danger... That doesn't require reaching for guns

[DankNuggs 305]

Not really sure where you're going with this. Nothing Worms has posted is either known or provable, as far as I can tell.

Just that it requires facts and evidence, not putting together a story based on fragments you get through the media.

 

I don't see the facts as presented to us thus far getting to any conviction.

[MDC 5,893]

I'm glad this is going to trial, even though the delay pretty much insures it will be a farce.

 

I haven't read much about this recently but I'd like to know whether based on the evidence / Martin's corpse it looked likely that the gun was fired while Zimmerman was on the ground? Because if it was self-defense as he claimed I'd expect the shot to occur while he was getting pummelled, not afterward.

 

I suspect he initiated the confrontation, got roughed up and fired the shot in anger more than self-defense. I also think he'll likely get convicted of manslaughter.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

the threshold isn't your own moral compass, its whether he had a right to be there, was acting within the law, and reasonably felt his life was in danger... That doesn't require reaching for guns

 

So if someone takes a swing at you you can shoot him dead? Jesus Christ, whatever happened to an old-fashioned fist fight? These days people can't stand to get their ass beat even after they initiate a fight so they kill the person. And you people can't wait to call it "self defense"

[IGotWorms 3,315]

I'm glad this is going to trial, even though the delay pretty much insures it will be a farce.

 

I haven't read much about this recently but I'd like to know whether based on the evidence / Martin's corpse it looked likely that the gun was fired while Zimmerman was on the ground? Because if it was self-defense as he claimed I'd expect the shot to occur while he was getting pummelled, not afterward.

 

I suspect he initiated the confrontation, got roughed up and fired the shot in anger more than self-defense. I also think he'll likely get convicted of manslaughter.

 

Yes we do need some forensic evidence. What was the position of the parties when the gun was fired? How close to each other were they at the time?

 

I sure hope the cops bothered to collect this evidence at the scene.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

All I ever wanted was a trial so we can see the evidence for ourselves. You can't just follow and shoot a "suspicious looking" kid and then walk away without raising eyebrows.

 

Anyone can get away with murder by using the same method that Uncle Jimbo pioneered for getting around hunting laws.

 

I can agree with this. Look, the pro-Zimmerman crowd has a point about waiting until the evidence comes out to convict him. But they sure seem just as eager to acquit him before the evidence is heard.

[parrot 789]

How was my answer "nonresponsive"? You asked at what point I would feel the need to myself. I said the need to defend myself with fatal force would surely end when the supposed attacker was subdued. Question answered.

 

No, the question was not answered. You said you were curious to see more about the severity of the injuries. I asked how severe the injuries have to be before you're allowed to defend yourself? You then started talking about a purely speculative turn of events where you would have no need to defend yourself, and said nothing at all about injuries. You brought up the severity of the injuries. I want to know how severe those injuries have to be before self-defense is allowable? The point being, if you wait until you have severe injuries, the self-defense window can close pretty fast, particularly when your head is involved.

[DankNuggs 305]

So if someone takes a swing at you you can shoot him dead? Jesus Christ, whatever happened to an old-fashioned fist fight? These days people can't stand to get their ass beat even after they initiate a fight so they kill the person. And you people can't wait to call it "self defense"

You are mad that the law exists, which i don't necessarily dissagree with... However this case is about the application of that law based on specific criterion.

 

Was he legally allowed to be there - yes

was he acting within the law - yes

did he reasonably fear his life was in danger - questionable

 

 

I saw Ivan Drago kill Apollo in a fist fight...

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

I saw Ivan Drago kill Apollo in a fist fight...

 

That was a boxing match with gloves on, not a fist fight. It was in all the papers.

[DankNuggs 305]

No, the question was not answered. You said you were curious to see more about the severity of the injuries. I asked how severe the injuries have to be before you're allowed to defend yourself? You then started talking about a purely speculative turn of events where you would have no need to defend yourself, and said nothing at all about injuries. You brought up the severity of the injuries. I want to know how severe those injuries have to be before self-defense is allowable? The point being, if you wait until you have severe injuries, the self-defense window can close pretty fast, particularly when your head is involved.

its like saying the NHL should base suspension length off of injuries.

 

So if you get punched in the face you can protect yourself if your orbital bone is broken, but not for something more superficial.

 

Seems oxymoronic to say you aren't allow to defend yourself until an injury threshold that renders you unable to defend yourself...

[IGotWorms 3,315]

No, the question was not answered. You said you were curious to see more about the severity of the injuries. I asked how severe the injuries have to be before you're allowed to defend yourself? You then started talking about a purely speculative turn of events where you would have no need to defend yourself, and said nothing at all about injuries. You brought up the severity of the injuries. I want to know how severe those injuries have to be before self-defense is allowable? The point being, if you wait until you have severe injuries, the self-defense window can close pretty fast, particularly when your head is involved.

 

I understand that and were it not for the obvious lull before Zimmerman shot him I would probably agree that this was self defense even if maybe fatal force wasn't absolutely necessary in an objective sense. I realize that in the heat of the moment a person maybe cannot objectively judge the precise moment when fatal force becomes necessary.

 

But there was a lull where Martin was desperately pleading for his life. You say this is speculative but what other explanation is there for that tape? Nobody has offered a single competing interpretation that makes any sense. You guys just prefer to ignore its existence.

[DankNuggs 305]

Jesus Christ, whatever happened to an old-fashioned fist fight?

Tell Cletus that fist fights aren't any way to solve a dispute, and protecting Cletus's right to a good ole fashioned fist fight isn't in the constitution...

 

 

You have no right to harm people...

[MDC 5,893]

Yes we do need some forensic evidence. What was the position of the parties when the gun was fired? How close to each other were they at the time?

 

I sure hope the cops bothered to collect this evidence at the scene.

 

Yep. There's a big difference to me between Zimmerman drawing a gun and firing while he's being beaten vs. getting roughed up, standing, drawing a gun and shooting Martin. I suspect the latter is what happened but I guess we'll find out in time.

 

The pro-Zimmerman crowd are pro-gun and anti-black. They'll also use any excuse to get angry at Obummer. How many times has Corky Pilot repeated the "does he look like Obummer's son?" line? You can tell that really pixxed him off. These folks have got full BudBro and aren't thinking like sane people.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

Tell Cletus that fist fights aren't any way to solve a dispute, and protecting Cletus's right to a good ole fashioned fist fight isn't in the constitution...

 

 

You have no right to harm people...

 

"Cletus"? Wtf are you babbling about here?

[DankNuggs 305]

"Cletus"? Wtf are you babbling about here?

Your irrational need to protect the ability to commit assault on each other without fear of the victim pulling out a gun and blowing yuor head off...

 

Maybe your beer muscles contract a little knowing you are taking your life in your hands, and thats probably a good thing

[DankNuggs 305]

Yep. There's a big difference to me between Zimmerman drawing a gun and firing while he's being beaten vs. getting roughed up, standing, drawing a gun and shooting Martin. I suspect the latter is what happened but I guess we'll find out in time.

Very true

 

The pro-Zimmerman crowd are pro-gun and anti-black. They'll also use any excuse to get angry at Obummer. How many times has Corky Pilot repeated the "does he look like Obummer's son?" line? You can tell that really pixxed him off. These folks have got full BudBro and aren't thinking like sane people.

Meh, not buying into the racial bs means 'anti black' Any reasonable person would reject that...