Hall of Fame

[Cruzer 1,996]

Who in the fock voted for Aaron Sele????

[Mike Honcho 5,435]

 

When I vote for a player I am upholding him for the highest individual honor possible. My vote is an endorsement of a career, not part of it, and how it was achieved. Voting for a known steroid user is endorsing steroid use. Having spent too much of the past two decades or so covering baseball on the subject of steroids -- what they do, how the game was subverted by them, and how those who stayed away from them were disadvantaged -- I cannot endorse it.

 

 

Based on past statements, such a dismissal is also obvious to many former players, including Hank Aaron, who has said no steroid users should go into the Hall ("The game has no place for cheaters"), Andre Dawson ("Individuals have chosen the wrong road, and they're choosing that as their legacy"), Goose Gossage ("Cheaters should absolutely not be in the Hall of Fame"), Todd Zeile ("Why doesn't anybody see that it's cheating and it's wrong?"), David Wells ("To me, if you've cheated as a player, that's as bad as being a scab") and Dale Murphy ("Everyone understood that it was against the law . . . It was also against the spirit of the game. That's why everybody did it in secret. I have a hard time endorsing that, because there were a lot of guys who decided, 'I'm not going to do that.'")

 

 

Where are all the former players arguing for known steroid users to be in the Hall? Anybody?

 

 

 

Why I'll never vote for a known steroid user.

[NewbieJr 541]

I'd be in favor of letting all the cheaters into the Hall of Fame, with one provision....all those records that were broken and made meaningless are gievn back to their rightful owners.

 

Aaron is the still the home run king until someone legit breaks it. Maris' 61 home runs is till the record. Take away enough of Clemens' Cy Young awards so that he no longer holds the record.

 

Because those cheaters put up such crazy numbers, not only are the true all-time greats no longer in teh record books, but the disgraceful cheaters will hold those 'records' forever.

 

So erase the cheater's names and make the records legit again. And then we can let the scumnbags into the Hall and we can move on.

[posty 2,809]

I'd be in favor of letting all the cheaters into the Hall of Fame, with one provision....all those records that were broken and made meaningless are gievn back to their rightful owners.

 

Aaron is the still the home run king until someone legit breaks it. Maris' 61 home runs is till the record. Take away enough of Clemens' Cy Young awards so that he no longer holds the record.

 

Because those cheaters put up such crazy numbers, not only are the true all-time greats no longer in teh record books, but the disgraceful cheaters will hold those 'records' forever.

 

So erase the cheater's names and make the records legit again. And then we can let the scumnbags into the Hall and we can move on.

 

What a really stupid idea...

 

Do you know for sure that Aaron was clean? How about Maris? You don't...

[Mike Honcho 5,435]

I'd be in favor of letting all the cheaters into the Hall of Fame, with one provision....all those records that were broken and made meaningless are gievn back to their rightful owners.

 

Aaron is the still the home run king until someone legit breaks it. Maris' 61 home runs is till the record. Take away enough of Clemens' Cy Young awards so that he no longer holds the record.

 

Because those cheaters put up such crazy numbers, not only are the true all-time greats no longer in teh record books, but the disgraceful cheaters will hold those 'records' forever.

 

So erase the cheater's names and make the records legit again. And then we can let the scumnbags into the Hall and we can move on.

 

Along those lines, what pisses me off is unless someday steroids become legal in baseball, we will never see a HR chase again. No player without juicing will ever hit 74 HR's. It might be possible to chase down the HR record, Ruth and Aaron both went over 700, but breaking 73...not going to happen. That's got to suck for players too, knowing...yeah I might hit a lot of dingers this year, but I'm not breaking any records.

[KSB2424 3,173]

I don't think me or Jayson Srark or anybody saying these guys should be inducted to the HOF are actually proud of the Steroid Era or like what a mess its made. Yes it sucks the 'records' aren't what they used to be. Yes it all feels tainted.

 

However the court of public opinion already srikes the sentence for those folks. Just because Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens has a place in Cooperstown will not change history or the publics perception/rememberence of them.

 

It's not that we are looking past steroids, its that we are simply accepting the reality of the situation. We are not pretending that we can truely judge with any certainty who really was using. It's very possible both Piazza and Biggio used at some point. Hell, Greg Maddux may have tried it once or twice (i.e. Pettite). It was rampant in clubhouses back then. Its simply the reality of the time.

 

To pretend we can just wish it away is foolish. Just as pretending we can pick and choose players from that era is as well.

[NewbieJr 541]

What a really stupid idea...

 

Do you know for sure that Aaron was clean? How about Maris? You don't...

You're a focking idiot.

 

I also believe Wayne Gretzgy was clean. I also believe Joe Montana was clean.

I'm not going to use some bullsh!t excuse that everyone who ever played the game 'could' have been taking PEDs, just so I can justify an era where some players were so juiced up that they were turning century old records into jokes.

 

Open your focking eyes. If these scumbags want to be in the HAll, then let 'em. But put the record books back to how they should be.

[posty 2,809]

You're a focking idiot.

 

You are such a hoot...

[NewbieJr 541]

Along those lines, what pisses me off is unless someday steroids become legal in baseball, we will never see a HR chase again. No player without juicing will ever hit 74 HR's. It might be possible to chase down the HR record, Ruth and Aaron both went over 700, but breaking 73...not going to happen. That's got to suck for players too, knowing...yeah I might hit a lot of dingers this year, but I'm not breaking any records.

Exactly. Unless they legalize steroids, the scummy guys like Bonds and McGuire will forever be in the record books.

[TD Ryan2 316]

Why Bonds and Clemens received so many more votes than Sosa, McGuire and Palmero makes no sense to me either.

not saying this is the absolute right answer but this is the thinking, and I do agree with it:

 

Clemens and Bonds were great before the steroids era.

Before the late 90s, when everyone puffed up, when everyone hit homeruns, and when every old guy was rejuvinated, Clemens and Bonds were all-time greats.

They were dynamic "5 tool" or "4 pitch" type players.

As skinny rookies and early in their careers, Bonds and Clemens were special.

 

McGuire was a nice power hitter for the A's but wasn't all that dynamic. A first baseman that hit for power and started breaking down physically pretty easily.

 

Who was Sammy Sosa before the steroids ers?

 

And both McGuire and Sosa only became great when they became ballooned up, numbers wrecking hitters. Just like Clemens and Bonds became ballooned up, numbers wrecking machines.

Poing being, Clemens and Bonds were great before they ballooned up.

 

Believe me, Clemens and Bonds disgust me. I don't like them at all. I don't think they are good people.... they appear to me to be lying, cheating, self-centered, ego-maniacal, prima-donnas.

But there is no denying how great they were at the game.

[cribdog 0]

 

 

Why Bonds and Clemens received so many more votes than Sosa, McGuire and Palmero makes no sense to me either.

 

 

 

Maybe because Bonds and Clemens are much, much better than the rest of those guys?

[Voltaire 5,491]

Totally disagree with the Starks article. No HOF for steroided cheaters and record breakers. You don't get honored for steroid use. Accepting them condones it and tells the next wannabe that you can make the HOF too if you cheat hard enough.

 

They got their money. They don't get respect.

[Stewburtx8 67]

Totally disagree with the Starks article. No HOF for steroided cheaters and record breakers. You don't get honored for steroid use. Accepting them condones it and tells the next wannabe that you can make the HOF too if you cheat hard enough.

 

They got their money. They don't get respect.

 

 

How do you know who cheated? Do we only keep out the guys who were absolutely caught? What about the ones who their is speculation about? What about the players that cheated but were fortunate enough to not get caught? What if they vote in a player to the Hall of Fame and we find out down the road that they used steroids? Do we now remove them? We already have guys in the Hall of Fame that have "cheated" in ways other than steroids.

 

Just seems like your solution to this just creates more problems, and we end up having a Hall of Fame where very few players from this era can get voted in to the Hall of Fame due to being guilty by association. Should we just forget the steroid era ever happened? Is it not a part of the history of baseball?

[TD Ryan2 316]

Totally disagree with the Starks article. No HOF for steroided cheaters and record breakers. You don't get honored for steroid use. Accepting them condones it and tells the next wannabe that you can make the HOF too if you cheat hard enough.

 

They got their money. They don't get respect.

This is the perfect moral ground and position to take.

But as Stewburt mentions above - it just isn't that cut and dry and as just as feeling thus way is it would be unjust (and unfair) to proceed this way.

 

The only defense may be that the players union collectively blocked testing and therefore allowed the cheating. They all stood as one - they all fall as one. They certainly all watched their paycheck s increase.

[Mile High Drunk 13]

Ridiculous they didn't vote anyone in. You can speculate on everyone who did and did not use the juice in the last 30 years or even into the future. There will always be ways to mask steroid use.

 

Bonds, Biggio, McGuire, Clemens and Piazza into this class. Hell, you could have put in the full "guilty" roid class of Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and Palmeroid and called it good.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

No Lance Armstrong???

 

[southcarolina 166]

Ridiculous they didn't vote anyone in. You can speculate on everyone who did and did not use the juice in the last 30 years or even into the future. There will always be ways to mask steroid use.

 

Bonds, Biggio, McGuire, Clemens and Piazza into this class. Hell, you could have put in the full "guilty" roid class of Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and Palmeroid and called it good.

 

And give them their own Steroid Wing so the purists dont even have to look at the exhibit.

[Gepetto 1,454]

What a focking joke

[SUXBNME 1,595]

Maybe because Bonds and Clemens are much, much better than the rest of those guys?

Thank you.

 

Windycityguy isn't very bright

[Voltaire 5,491]

How do you know who cheated? Do we only keep out the guys who were absolutely caught? What about the ones who their is speculation about? What about the players that cheated but were fortunate enough to not get caught? What if they vote in a player to the Hall of Fame and we find out down the road that they used steroids? Do we now remove them? We already have guys in the Hall of Fame that have "cheated" in ways other than steroids.

 

Just seems like your solution to this just creates more problems, and we end up having a Hall of Fame where very few players from this era can get voted in to the Hall of Fame due to being guilty by association. Should we just forget the steroid era ever happened? Is it not a part of the history of baseball?

 

None of the steroids era players should get into the HOF, the ones that cheated don't belong and they squeezed the limelight and the stats from the ones that didn't. This is my generation of players- I graduated HS in 1989 with them, they're the same age I am but fock them.

 

There's ways to handle the "history of baseball" aspect without honoring these turds with a bust and a plaque. Set up a "steroids era" section with no plaques and no busts where it's described what these players did to so many of baseball's most cherished records. Make it a more somber exerience with darker colors and sad commentary that contrasts with the glory and praise heaped on the other players recieve. No highlights except maybe congressional testimony.

 

As for "other guys cheated" - Bullsh*t. Gaylord Perry's cheating occured in full view in front of the cameras, the umpires, the fans, and the other focking team. Not secretly off the field in the back rooms. It doesn't compare at all. It was entertaining, you payed for a ball game and got a magic show to go with it. How the fock did he do that? Nobody figured him out.

[windycityguy 1]

Maybe because Bonds and Clemens are much, much better than the rest of those guys?

 

I certainly agree with that. We all know Sosa did steroids but there is nothing that I am aware of to prove that.

 

I just expected them to all pretty much be treated the same. Either your going to let these guys in or not. Cherry picking which cheaters deserve to be in makes no sense.

[Mile High Drunk 13]

None of the steroids era players should get into the HOF, the ones that cheated don't belong and they squeezed the limelight and the stats from the ones that didn't. This is my generation of players- I graduated HS in 1989 with them, they're the same age I am but fock them.

 

There's ways to handle the "history of baseball" aspect without honoring these turds with a bust and a plaque. Set up a "steroids era" section with no plaques and no busts where it's described what these players did to so many of baseball's most cherished records. Make it a more somber exerience with darker colors and sad commentary that contrasts with the glory and praise heaped on the other players recieve. No highlights except maybe congressional testimony.

 

As for "other guys cheated" - Bullsh*t. Gaylord Perry's cheating occured in full view in front of the cameras, the umpires, the fans, and the other focking team. Not secretly off the field in the back rooms. It doesn't compare at all. It was entertaining, you payed for a ball game and got a magic show to go with it. How the fock did he do that? Nobody figured him out.

It was a part of baseball. You cannot ignore what happened or pretend it didn't happen. Let the best of the best in.

[Voltaire 5,491]

It was a part of baseball. You cannot ignore what happened or pretend it didn't happen. Let the best of the best in.

The only one ignoring or pretending it didn't happen is you. I'm telling the cheaters to go fock themselves so it would seem I'm fully aware of what happened. And further, cheaters are not the best of the best anyways.

 

Fock 'em. And I'm glad the baseball writers agree with me. Sadly, there are enough people that flush their votes on steroid junkies that they are preventing other legitimate players from entering the Hall. Nobody got into the Hall this year and nobody will until these fockers eligability expires in fourteen years.

[Chronic Husker 86]

Glad nobody got in today.

[Voltaire 5,491]

Glad nobody got in today.

These junkies ruined Jack Morris' candidacy.

[Mike Honcho 5,435]

I certainly agree with that. We all know Sosa did steroids but there is nothing that I am aware of to prove that.

 

I just expected them to all pretty much be treated the same. Either your going to let these guys in or not. Cherry picking which cheaters deserve to be in makes no sense.

 

Cept his name being on the anonymous drug test back in 2004.

[southcarolina 166]

Sadly, there are enough people that flush their votes on steroid junkies that they are preventing other legitimate players from entering the Hall.

 

There is no limit to how many people the BBWA members can put on his ballot. In other words, if a writer wants to vote for 15 guys, he can. HOF enshrinement requires being named on 75% of ballots. Players named on a ballot are not weighted. A player is either on the ballot, or not. A vote for Bonds or Clemens didnt take a spot from Morris or Biggio. Here is a list of who voted for whom:

 

http://bbwaa.com/13-hof-ballots/

 

Guys like Morris and Biggio will get in or not get in based on their own merit. They arent being squeezed out by less deserving steroid users. I suppose the argument could be made that steroid users stats make the clean guys look paler in comparison, but i think if a person is capable of making the decision to not vote for a Bonds or Clemens based on steroid use, those same people ought to be savvy enough to vote for a guy like Biggio with a clean reputation, even if its just to thumb their nose at the "cheaters". The fact that he Biggio didnt get in shows that the BBWA members value the idea of "first ballot inductee" above all else.

[southcarolina 166]

OK i was wrong. There is a limit....10 players per ballot. I still think that that is plenty of space for guys like Biggio and Morris to not get squeezed out. Plenty of guys on that list i posted voted for all the "cheaters" and still had room for Biggio, Morris, Raines, Trammell, etc.

[Stewburtx8 67]

 

As for "other guys cheated" - Bullsh*t. Gaylord Perry's cheating occured in full view in front of the cameras, the umpires, the fans, and the other focking team. Not secretly off the field in the back rooms. It doesn't compare at all. It was entertaining, you payed for a ball game and got a magic show to go with it. How the fock did he do that? Nobody figured him out.

 

 

At least your stance is that NONE of them get in. Because treating this on a case by case basis would just create a even bigger mess. I respect your stance, just disagree with it, because I'm not sure when we could start voting players in the Hall of Fame again if we just wipe out the steroids era. And what about guys like Griffey, Maddux, and Frank Thomas? Do they not get in because they played at a time when steroids were prevelant?

 

As for the paragraph above, I disagree completely. Everyone in baseball KNEW steroids were a problem. They didn't care. The commishioner, owners, front offices, managers, players union, agents, other players, etc., all knew steroids were being used, they just looked the other way. This wasn't some big secret that only the players that were using knew about. When McGwire/Sosa were having their epic home run battle and "saving" baseball after the strike, everyone gushed about how great they were.

 

If they were so worried about their sacred records, they would of forced/agreed to drug testing LONG before they did. The owners and front offices also wouldn't have built these much smaller ballparks which also led to an increase in home runs around the same time. Not to mention that many people believe that the baseballs were harder or "juiced" after the strike as well to increase scoring/attendance during that time. Steroids weren't the only problem. And if you have a pitcher on steroids facing a hitter on steroids, who benefits more? Does anyone? No one really knows.

[posty 2,809]

When McGwire/Sosa were having their epic home run battle and "saving" baseball after the strike, everyone gushed about how great they were.

 

I wonder how many writers did not vote for the "steroid" users because they were "cheaters" but wrote accolades about them when they were succeeding...

[Greedo 13]

I'm happy with the number that got in.

 

Biggio will get in eventually, as will Piazza and a few of the others.

[Mile High Drunk 13]

The only one ignoring or pretending it didn't happen is you. I'm telling the cheaters to go fock themselves so it would seem I'm fully aware of what happened. And further, cheaters are not the best of the best anyways.

 

Fock 'em. And I'm glad the baseball writers agree with me. Sadly, there are enough people that flush their votes on steroid junkies that they are preventing other legitimate players from entering the Hall. Nobody got into the Hall this year and nobody will until these fockers eligability expires in fourteen years.

So do we just not ever have another guy go into the HOF because of the possibility of steroids? How do you know Jack Morris wasn't juicing?

[southcarolina 166]

So do we just not ever have another guy go into the HOF because of the possibility of steroids? How do you know Jack Morris wasn't juicing?

 

Mediocre career numbers?

 

 

 

 

 

[tikigods 76]

The Hall of Fame is a joke until they let in Pete Rose.

[Mile High Drunk 13]

Mediocre career numbers?

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe that's how he became mediocre

[Mile High Drunk 13]

The Hall of Fame is a joke until they let in Pete Rose.

Agreed, he needs to be in as well.

[southcarolina 166]

Maybe that's how he became mediocre

 

Sounds like he should have done some juicin'

[Mile High Drunk 13]

Sounds like he should have done some juicin'

Then he might have been a hall of famer

[tikigods 76]

Agreed, he needs to be in as well.

 

Rose is a dirtbag but so was Cobb. Just because the guy bet on baseball in no way tarnishes what he accomplished as a ball player. Keep him out as a manager, which he was terrible as anyway, but he needs to be in the Hall.

 

I'm still in shock Jim Rice got in there. He was the biggest dooshbag in baseball.

 

Why didn't Biggio get in? Was he ever implicated in PEDs? 3,000 hits is pretty much a ticket punch to the Hall. If he doesn't get in then I have to question why Mazeroski gets in. Biggio had a higher fielding % .985 to Maz at .983 and had nearly 1,000 more hits than him. He also had nearly 100 more homers.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

The Hall of Fame is a joke until they let in Pete Rose.

....and Lance Armstrong.