They kneeled for the National Anthem and stood for the Brit anthem.

[IMMensaMind 459]

I've seen that video and like what Williams did. Still is irrelevant to the NFL's situation.

How is it irrelevant? It's perfectly relevant. You think all these players protesting the flag are fully educated on the purpose of the Anthem?

 

I would like to ask if you are. What is the purpose of the Pledge, and the Anthem? In your view?

 

Trump needs better advisors. Or, he just needs to start listening to the ones he has. He couldn't have possibly done more to further the players' movement on this. This was dying out. Only 6 players in the entire league knelt last week. Trump can't seem to get out of his own way.

 

I think you're wrong. This wasn't "dying out", and it wasn't Trump's goal to tacitly sit and do nothing while another step is taken to reduce our sense of US pride. The protest of the flag on such a prominent stage was another step in the long-trend conditioning of the American public to release their love of country in favor of a no borders world. That's what this is. This issue could not speak more directly to one of the core reasons why Trump was ELECTED. His election sounded the public's disgust of manipulated cronyist Government, where elements of both parties - the element which RUNS both parties - seems to be in collusion (some call it "The Establishment/shadow government/deep state/whatever). The accusation resonated, and still does - and I find it impossible to deny its existence; evidence of it saturates our politics.

 

Polls demonstrate that Congress has the worst approval ratings in its history because these shenanigans continue; the globalist/Establishment agenda is being pulled to the surface to be dealt with head on - and that's what Trump is doing. Complaining that it is a 'conspiracy theory' is just an attempt to muzzle the debate.

 

Trump's conscious action is akin to bringing a boil to a head so that it can be popped; so the issue can be addressed head on. This agenda doesn't want to be overt and and naked; it wants to slink around and subtly influence our hearts and minds over a very long period of time.

 

That's how propaganda works.

 

There are two kinds of people in this world: people who will settle for an uneasy peace and people who wish for the real thing. The latter fight and die for their principles. The former fight only for themselves.

 

The latter are the kind who pick up the US Flag when it falls in battle. The former cover their ass in a hole until others have fought for them. The latter love their country and others before themselves. The former love only themselves, and will cast off everyone else in favor of themselves.

 

What kind are you? Do you pick up the flag when it falls in battle?

[IMMensaMind 459]

People in this country are nuts. Under Obama's administration, Canadian fans were protesting the American National anthem during Hockey games, people in this country bashed them. Now, under Trump, we're doing it ourselves.

 

People are too emotional today. Not enough logic. Everyone is a victim anymore. Give me a break.

The "if it feels good, do it" started this. It is part of a decades long effort to replace critical thought with feelings. You're exactly correct.

[IMMensaMind 459]

Mensa, when there is racial motivation to denounce a movement, it's fair to call those people racists. It's not an ad-hominem. It's critical reasoning.

You used an ad hom against me, and you did it immediately. And claiming that the reason for denouncing a movement on racial grounds is absolutely unfair at its core, as it establishes a reality where any group of one particular color can do whatever it wishes with impunity, knowing it cannot be criticized without calling the critics racist.

 

So: when there is a hole in your logic that large, what is behind it is not critical reasoning. It is dishonest.

 

 

This thread was literally started with racist, ad-hominem attacks in it...not by me.

You lose your right to complain about such things if you engage in it yourself. I entered the debate late, and wasn't engaging in anything like that, but you chose the exact same tactic with me, and did so immediately.

 

So how, exactly, are you any better than those about whom you're now complaining? It isn't legit to say "others did it, and that justifies why I did it too".

 

Take your double talk and mental hoops elsewhere.

Is this discussion taxing your abilities too greatly? I'm not engaging in double talk. I'm being very clear, and attempting to be very patient. You, though, continue to wish that I stop speaking instead of appreciating a test to your own viewpoint.

 

A viewpoint that cannot endure scrutiny is not a strong one, and can only be defended with illegitimate debate tactics. Like ad hominems, and diversion.

 

On that note: what is the purpose of Pledging Allegiance to the Flag? Is the purpose just?

 

This thread could have easily by a couple yes/no questions. Do the players have a right to protest? Do the owners have a right to not punish them?

/thread

Every other argument mentioned is irrelevant.

No, they are not irrelevant. All free speech is not equal. Were that not true, there would be no right and wrong. One side of a debate can be right; the other wrong, but your proclamation seeks to grant the WRONG equal footing with the RIGHT.

 

That, too, is dishonest. No, this conversation doesn't end merely because someone has a right to do something. There is a whole other angle to pursue: were they right in doing so? What responsibilities do they and we have?

[BTL99 34]

What a load of garbage.

Not smart enough to understand it huh?

[LOD01 191]

People in this country are nuts. Under Obama's administration, Canadian fans were protesting the American National anthem during Hockey games, people in this country bashed them. Now, under Trump, we're doing it ourselves.

 

People are too emotional today. Not enough logic. Everyone is a victim anymore. Give me a break.

 

This is what happens when dumb people are allowed uncontrolled breeding. It's only taken a couple of decades and here we are. Smart people realize they can only afford so many offspring, however a dumbass breeds uncontrolled because the govt will give them free stuff at the working class's expense. It's only going to get worse.

[IMMensaMind 459]

You are preaching that these protests undermine the fabric of unity that is woven into the American flag while at the same time stating that there is a right and wrong way of protesting. These protests aren't meant to make you comfortable. They're meant to force open people's eyes to things they wouldn't normally be subjected to.

Who isn't constantly subjected to this form of protest? It's everywhere.

 

I have stated it before; I'll state it again. We can all decide to delve into the nature of the protest; the legitimacy of it; it's underlying purpose. If the goal is #unity, as has been stated ad nauseum by the Twittersphere, how could one possibly further #unity by protesting the very symbol of that unity?

 

Can you answer that?

 

 

What you are so blind to is that the American flag stands for exactly what these players are doing, having every right/freedom to express themselves and the injustices they feel are being inflicted to specific groups. The only people I see trying to undermine anyone is people like you.

Oh, I'm not blind at all, and I can prove it by observing your answer to the above question I asked. You state that the flag stands for exactly what these players are doing. As should be obvious to you, I must agree, as the core of my question revolves around it.

 

Why are they protesting the very thing that gives them the right to protest? Do you see an elegant harmony in that, or lunacy?

 

I see equal parts ignorance and dishonesty in it. Agendas interested in undermining our sense of #unity are applauding these demonstrations. They understand what you do not: while our Constitution grants a player's right to engage in this sort of protest doesn't mean that they SHOULD, and certainly doesn't mean that they shouldn't be subject to harsh criticism WITHOUT the convenient cover of being called racists in the process.

 

What happens if we suddenly find ourselves at war on multiple fronts, and the Government has to institute a draft? Do you think these people who were spitting on the flag on Wednesday will suddenly find themselves under fire on a battlefield on Saturday rushing to pick up a flag dropped by a shot fellow American? Or would chaos - and defeat - rule instead?

 

What is the purpose of citizenship to the US if one cannot also honor and respect the symbol of that which unifies us as Americans?

 

And there you have it: those who oppose my point of view do not care about citizenship to the US. That's the very thing they're fighting.. They, instead, wish to be citizens of the world. They wish, without a fight, to forfeit the thing that nearly every one of them had ancestors spill their blood to protect.

[IMMensaMind 459]

Disturbing to see so many people referring to our flag as "a piece of cloth".

 

Apparently, many have no idea how many thousands of gallons of blood have been spilled to keep her aloft, including on the night of Sept. 14, 1814, the night our national anthem was penned. Francis Scott Key witnessed the British naval bombardment of Fort McHenry, as he was being detained aboard a British ship, while trying to negotiate the release of a captured Washington doctor named Beanes. That foggy/rainy night, the Fort was pounded with 1,800 bombs, rockets, and shells...400 of them landing inside. When dawn arrived, Key fully expected to see the Fort destroyed and the soldiers inside either dead or retreated. Instead, he saw the battered and tattered flag still aloft, waving defiantly. He was so shocked and moved by the tenacity and courage of these soldiers in the name of freedom, that he penned the words to our anthem on an envelope. He and the prisoners were sent ashore, and the British fleet withdrew.

 

Here is the actual flag that would not be furled that fateful night:

 

https://www.si.edu/encyclopedia_si/nmah/images/banner.jpg

This. This is the core of what makes us American. Without it, we are cannon fodder.

 

Millions have been lured to sleep, now fully convinced that there is no such thing as an enemy to America. There are and continue to be, both foreign and domestic.

[Antiramie 50]

Mensa, comparing your unhinged, conspiracy-theory arguments to Alex Jones is not an ad-hominem. Comparing black protestors to thugs is.

[IMMensaMind 459]

Mensa, comparing your unhinged, conspiracy-theory arguments to Alex Jones is not an ad-hominem. Comparing black protestors to thugs is.

You need to better grasp what an ad hominem is. Nothing I've written is unhinged at all. It is a complete and rationally thought out argument in support of defending our Flag; not insulting it, and the people who have died protecting it.

 

And I have called no protestor a thug, so keep the claim out of your responses to me. I am only responsible for that which I've written; not what everyone else writes.

[IMMensaMind 459]

Mensa is Alex Jones confirmed. JFC you are out of touch with reality.

Requoted for post review. This is the post you claim isn't an ad hominem, Antiramie. I expect that if you felt like you had the upper hand in this debate, you wouldn't have immediately dove for the comfort of insulting someone.

[Antiramie 50]

Requoted for post review. This is the post you claim isn't an ad hominem, Antiramie. I expect that if you felt like you had the upper hand in this debate, you wouldn't have immediately dove for the comfort of insulting someone.

It's not an ad-hominem if there is validity to the comparison.

[IMMensaMind 459]

Taking the long view, there is solace in understanding the following.

 

The moment that millions of Americans who are busy lionizing the idiocy of protesting the very thing that grants them to right to protest realize that they are aligned with all sorts of foreign interests who would like nothing better than to grind America to dust under the heels of their boots, they'll no longer be useful to those interests. They'll have no choice but to fight for their own survival, because they wouldn't have been conditioned to fight for anyone else's.

 

They'll be alone until they realize it, and anything but cohesive. This is how Mother Nature eliminates weakness; culls the herd.

 

Villaneuva certainly understands that, which is why he refused to be part of that herd.

[IMMensaMind 459]

It's not an ad-hominem if there is validity to the comparison.

Every argument has a defender. Yours is that I'm detached from reality. Mine is that I can argue better detached, apparently, than you are able to firmly anchored.

 

Think about that.

[IMMensaMind 459]

I'll revisit the thread later and see if anyone has honestly answered what they believe is the purpose of the Pledge and Anthem, and why it is logical to protest the very symbol that grants the right to protest, and not protest against something else in some other way.

 

Unless, of course, they have been duped into actually attempting to undermine that beautiful freedom.

[Jesus Chrysler 29]

How is it irrelevant? It's perfectly relevant. You think all these players protesting the flag are fully educated on the purpose of the Anthem?

 

I would like to ask if you are. What is the purpose of the Pledge, and the Anthem? In your view?

 

 

I stated in my initial post that I've been against Kaepernick and Bennett all along. I think they're idiots. And I'm glad no team is bothering to deal with the headache that would come with signing Kaep. I'm not on the players' side as far as the movement goes, but I sure as hell am a supporter of free speech. Trump used the phrase Son of a b1tch to describe them. Then wanted to take away their right to make a living. A United States President should understand the constitution. Not sh1t all over it whenever he sees an opportunity to fire up his racist base.

[Gepetto 988]

BLM failed. They're going about it the wrong way. Don't spite the flag and the anthem. You just p!ssed off tens of millions of people who you want to help your cause. Stupid.

[Antiramie 50]

My arguments are anchored by the Constiitution, which is much more of a sturdy foundation than the arbitrary ethers of ideology that you personally interpret from the symbol of the flag.

[IMMensaMind 459]

My arguments are anchored by the Constiitution, which is much more of a sturdy foundation than the arbitrary ethers of ideology that you personally interpret from the symbol of the flag.

Oh? How? You think that everything that is allowed by the Constitution is equally valid?

 

Because that's what you're attempting to say. Your argument literally boils down to "because they're allowed to do it - and the owners are allowed to react by firing them if they wish - that's all that we need to say".

 

And I disagree, and explained why. Why it's important to teach those who are misguided about the purpose of the Flag, and the Pledge to it. Why the national discussion that ensues is an important one to have - for reasons of preservation of country - and why one side is only correct legally, and the other side is both correct legally and morally.

 

As for your 'arbitrary ethers', I'm not sure how you don't find them also equally protected under that same Constitution through which you seem utterly helpless to draw distinctions between poor actions and good ones.

 

You, simply, cannot bring yourself to feel a loyalty to our flag. Why?

[IMMensaMind 459]

I stated in my initial post that I've been against Kaepernick and Bennett all along. I think they're idiots. And I'm glad no team is bothering to deal with the headache that would come with signing Kaep. I'm not on the players' side as far as the movement goes, but I sure as hell am a supporter of free speech. Trump used the phrase Son of a b1tch to describe them. Then wanted to take away their right to make a living. A United States President should understand the constitution. Not sh1t all over it whenever he sees an opportunity to fire up his racist base.

 

As antiramie has posted - correctly - the owners have a right to fire employees for acting like this. Trump - as POTUS or simply as a gasbag billionaire - has a right to muse how nice it would be to witness an NFL owner doing so.

 

So please explain: in what specific way is Trump "shtting all over the Constitution"?

[Voltaire 4,564]

People in this country are nuts. Under Obama's administration, Canadian fans were protesting the American National anthem during Hockey games, people in this country bashed them. Now, under Trump, we're doing it ourselves.

 

People are too emotional today. Not enough logic. Everyone is a victim anymore. Give me a break.

Did they really? I must have missed that, Can you provide a link, please.

 

In the mean time while you're looking, here's something you may have missed. Check out this link of Toronto Maple Leafs fans finishing the US National Anthem when technical difficulties knocked the sound system offline.

 

 

Or if you prefer, Edmonton Oilers fans who did the same thing in similar circumstances

 

[IMMensaMind 459]

Did they really? I must have missed that, Can you provide a link, please.

 

In the mean time while you're looking, here's something you may have missed. Check out this link of Toronto Maple Leafs fans finishing the US National Anthem when technical difficulties knocked the sound system offline.

 

 

I remember that. That was awesome.

 

In so doing, Canadians demonstrate for us the lesson I'm attempting to impart: Anthems knit loyalties. To each other. In that case, you have a neighbor expressly stating that they want to be a neighbor; an ally.

 

And that is what standing up for the Flag is all about. Allegories for this exist throughout our lives, and there are forces attempting to tear them out of us, and split us into as many tiny and put upon victim groups who have no allegiance - or even affection - for each other at all.

 

This is how you strategize to kill a nation, and this is why it must be fought tooth and nail.

[Borat33 17]

This whole thing didn't really seem like a big issue this year until this orange moron decided to throw 50 gallons of gas onto the fire.

[IMMensaMind 459]

This whole thing didn't really seem like a big issue this year until this orange moron decided to throw 50 gallons of gas onto the fire.

 

Funny that you thought it better to bash someone standing up for the flag than the ones pissing on it.

[Antiramie 50]

So some parts of the Constitution are more valid than others? Do explain.

[IMMensaMind 459]

So some parts of the Constitution are more valid than others? Do explain.

I don't have to explain that because I never said that. Read again what I wrote. It was clear. It has nothing to do with the words in the Constitution, but with the feigned equality of actions and speech granted cover by it.

 

Not all free speech is equal. Some is bad; some is good.

[Jesus Chrysler 29]

As antiramie has posted - correctly - the owners have a right to fire employees for acting like this. Trump - as POTUS or simply as a gasbag billionaire - has a right to muse how nice it would be to witness an NFL owner doing so.

 

So please explain: in what specific way is Trump "shtting all over the Constitution"?

The President should be doing all he can to ensure his citizens that they are free to peacefully protest as part of their first amendment rights. Just as he so loves to point out about the rights of white supremacists to protest. Trump's problem is that he has 30% of the country wrapped around his finger. He thinks he's still campaigning and looking for cheers at one of his rallies. He's been elected now. Time to govern instead of campaign.

[seafoam1 1,879]

Mensa, when there is racial motivation to denounce a movement, it's fair to call those people racists.

 

 

Every other argument mentioned is irrelevant.

I denounce their actions. Including the black players, white players, black coaches, white coaches, owners, waterboys, and and any other role or race or sex that did it.

 

Sounds like your argument is irrelevant to hang every criticism or opinion that someone has against peoples actions and labeling them a racist because some black people were included in that criticism. This is what Obama mostly contributed to our country. Racial divide that we haven't seen in years.

 

You are the worst example of a human being next to women who falsely claim rape against a man. Or even Ryan Braun and Lance Armstrong who get people fired to try to hide their drug use.

 

Oh wait, they are white. I must be racist against whites now by your argument logic.

[Antiramie 50]

Not all free speech is equal. Some is bad; some is good.

The differentiation between what free speech is allowed and what isn't is also outlined in the Constitution. So we're in agreement then?

[stonewall 647]

What happens if we suddenly find ourselves at war on multiple fronts, and the Government has to institute a draft? Do you think these people who were spitting on the flag on Wednesday will suddenly find themselves under fire on a battlefield on Saturday rushing to pick up a flag dropped by a shot fellow American? Or would chaos - and defeat - rule instead?

 

 

 

These are the questions that nobody wants to consider. Yet, these are the only questions that really matter in this debate.

 

It is more gratifying and stimulating to mindlessly become enveloped in the latest sensationalized and contrived social media-driven hash-tagged "cause", than to actually internalize the potential nation-altering (or ending) repercussions of this foolish and terminal mindset.

 

We have persisted and, yes, thrived, as a nation on the back of courage. Yet we have forgotten what courage is.

 

I assert that courage is not kneeling during our anthem for the latest perceived injustice, whether real or imagined. Courage is Master Sergeant Roy B. Benavidez.

 

Snap out of your stupor. Read and be humbled.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Benavidez

[Antiramie 50]

Lmao at everyone here wanting to suppress protestors in the name of unity when that is the very thing those people are fighting for. Y'all are the biggest bunch of hypocrites I've ever seen.

[mobb_deep 917]

As antiramie has posted - correctly - the owners have a right to fire employees for acting like this. Trump - as POTUS or simply as a gasbag billionaire - has a right to muse how nice it would be to witness an NFL owner doing so.

 

So please explain: in what specific way is Trump "shtting all over the Constitution"?

 

He might not be sh!tting on the constitution, but he's probably breaking the law.

 

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title18-section227&num=0&edition=prelim

 

§227. Wrongfully influencing a private entity's employment decisions by a Member of Congress or an officer or employee of the legislative or executive branch

(a) Whoever, being a covered government person, with the intent to influence, solely on the basis of partisan political affiliation, an employment decision or employment practice of any private entity-

(1) takes or withholds, or offers or threatens to take or withhold, an official act, or

(2) influences, or offers or threatens to influence, the official act of another,

shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than 15 years, or both, and may be disqualified from holding any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.

( In this section, the term "covered government person" means-

(1) a Senator or Representative in, or a Delegate or Resident Commissioner to, the Congress;

(2) an employee of either House of Congress; or

(3) the President, Vice President, an employee of the United States Postal Service or the Postal Regulatory Commission, or any other executive branch employee (as such term is defined under section 2105 of title 5, United States Code).

(Added Pub. L. 110–81, title I, §102(a), Sept. 14, 2007, 121 Stat. 739 ; amended Pub. L. 112–105, §18(a), Apr. 4, 2012, 126 Stat. 304 .)

[Eddie Kennison 12]

You're speaking of people who misguidedly think their racism and unconditional nationalism is the majority opinion in this country. Many of those same people are experiencing civil rights protests (this, BLM, etc) for the first time in their life. It's a natural reaction to denounce those protests with false reasoning. Remember "Fear is a stinky cologne".

Well said.

[IMMensaMind 459]

The President should be doing all he can to ensure his citizens that they are free to peacefully protest as part of their first amendment rights.

The President should be protecting ALL rights - and that also includes the rights of owners to fire disobedient employees. So nothing that Trump has done is in any way unConstitutional, or damaging to the Constitution. What he did was damaging only to that which Should be damaged: poor arguments and misguided protests.

 

Just as he so loves to point out about the rights of white supremacists to protest.

I don't see him treating this any differently; his declared positions have been utterly consistent with Constitutional principle. These white supremacists that you claim he 'loves' (I see no indication of that) were physically attacked. Trump was defending the right to free speech in public - without being attacked for doing so.

 

Trump's problem is that he has 30% of the country wrapped around his finger. He thinks he's still campaigning and looking for cheers at one of his rallies. He's been elected now. Time to govern instead of campaign.

 

Part of being a President is defending the Flag. I want a President who does so. Don't you?

[IMMensaMind 459]

Well said.

You consider antiramie's post "well said". Ok...defend that. What "false reasoning" is being used to denounce these protests?

[IMMensaMind 459]

F Trump. He's a racist draft dodging POS. Standing behind him doesn't make you more patriotic it makes you a moron.

Oh, bashing Trump has nothing to do with your patriotism or lack thereof. I am in support of his words. Do you have something that you can credibly argue that would cause his words to be somehow illegitimate?

 

What you did, though, was choose to bash Trump before you made your position on flag protests known. Refusing to condemn people for disrespecting the flag has everything to do with our ability to judge you as a patriot or not. As I've stated in detail, and why. Being a citizen comes with some pretty serious responsibilities. You know that, right?

 

Villaneuva understands it; why don't you?

[Antiramie 50]

These players have explicitly stated that they are not protesting nor mean any disrespect to the flag, anthem, or military. So wtf are you upset with Mensa?

[Joey Gladstone 33]

This whole thing didn't really seem like a big issue this year until this orange moron decided to throw 50 gallons of gas onto the fire.

This. JFC...

[Borat33 17]

Oh, bashing Trump has nothing to do with your patriotism or lack thereof. I am in support of his words. Do you have something that you can credibly argue that would cause his words to be somehow illegitimate?

 

The man lies on average about 5 times a day. So yea his credibility is non existent as far as I'm concerned.

[IMMensaMind 459]

The differentiation between what free speech is allowed and what isn't is also outlined in the Constitution. So we're in agreement then?

No, you're brushing past the point being made. Just because someone has a right to express themselves a specific way does not mean that they should, nor does it mean that they're correct/helpful/useful.

 

It could, in fact, mean that they're attempting to do harm.

 

Or are you now going to be forced to say that Russian propaganda engaged in by American citizens is simply free speech, and no harm could have come from that either?

 

These protestors should have their feet held to the fire. They should defend their views; their reasoning for protesting the very thing that granted them the right to protest.

 

The rest of us react in two ways: wondering how credible a protest which claims to want to honor and unify our country could be if the object being protested is the very SYMBOL of that unity, and wondering if these protestors even know what they're really doing.

[IMMensaMind 459]

These players have explicitly stated that they are not protesting nor mean any disrespect to the flag, anthem, or military. So wtf are you upset with Mensa?

Players have explicitly stated that they're not protesting the flag by protesting the flag?

 

I'm no more upset than you. I'm debating, and on a subject I find important - for reasons I clearly explained (most of which have not been touched).

 

Actions speak louder than words. You're claiming that their words are that they are not protesting the flag, and mean no disrespect...and then their actions demonstrate protest towards the flag, and fly in the face of the claims that they've made.

 

If someone pisses on your back and you believe them when they tell you it's raining, that's no one else's problem but yours.