wiffleball 4,645 Posted March 15, 2018 So, the first time a nine-year-old brings an unloaded gun or a toy gun to school and Captain Braveheart puts 17 rounds into the kid the debate will be why the hell are teachers armed? Or, the first time one of the kids gets ahold of the teachers gun, yada yada yada. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patriotsfatboy1 1,432 Posted March 15, 2018 So, the first time a nine-year-old brings an unloaded gun or a toy gun to school and Captain Braveheart puts 17 rounds into the kid the debate will be why the hell are teachers armed? Or, the first time one of the kids gets ahold of the teachers gun, yada yada yada. This reeks of embellishment and exaggeration. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MDC 5,893 Posted March 15, 2018 I actually agree with almost everything you said. There are a lot of issues to be concerned with, and I fully agree it should be a volunteer scenario, not mandated. And yes, training is very important. I appreciate that. And in these gun discussions I thought no responsible well trained gun owners like yourself get unfairly maligned. If I thought every teacher with a gun in schools would be a BLS Id be all for it but I know thats not reality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mobb_deep 917 Posted March 15, 2018 I appreciate that. And in these gun discussions I thought no responsible well trained gun owners like yourself get unfairly maligned. If I thought every teacher with a gun in schools would be a BLS Id be all for it but I know thats not reality. Exactly. We're not talking about people shooting IDPA every other weekend and running training programs. Any donk with basic gun knowledge can get a CC in most states. The idea of some teacher, who hits the range a few times a year, pulling out his glock 19 to protect a bunch of kids from a maniac with an AR-15 is laughable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardcore troubadour 12,656 Posted March 15, 2018 Exactly. We're not talking about people shooting IDPA every other weekend and running training programs. Any donk with basic gun knowledge can get a CC in most states. The idea of some teacher, who hits the range a few times a year, pulling out his glock 19 to protect a bunch of kids from a maniac with an AR-15 is laughable. Your 120 pound female teacher isn't hitting anything with a glock 19 under pressure. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penultimatestraw 473 Posted March 15, 2018 Do you think it might have helped in Florida if there had been a few teachers who were packing and had appropriate training? Maybe, maybe not. They may have panicked like the security officer, or picked off a few innocent kids while trying to stop the shooter. And when the real cops arrived, they may have mistaken the vigilantes for the bad guys. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penultimatestraw 473 Posted March 15, 2018 Shutting down the debate over something you’re just POSITIVE about is pretty arrogant, wouldnt you say? Like “I know I could safely carry a sidearm in school, because I know I’m better than you” kind of arrogant. Strike is 100% correct on his assertion: schools which have teachers who have volunteered to be armed - and have fulfilled the requirement to do so - are far more safe. It works in Israel, where it has been common practice for years, and it is working in multiple states now, including Ohio, where it has been in place the longest, iirc. On another note: did anyone hear about the school that a kid attempted to bomb? Not widely reported - and by “not widely”, I mean nearly not at all. Because it clashes with the narrative being attempted atm. Banning guns will make us less safe, not more. If you want the kind of “safe” the gun banners want, I suggest you simply turn off the TV. It will net the same effect: the moment these creeps succeed in banning guns, any and all incidents with guns will cease to be covered, and you’ll never be the wiser. Just like you are now. Since there seems to be definitive evidence somewhere that schools with armed teachers are far more safe, can you provide some links to prove it? My google must be broken. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IMMensaMind 459 Posted March 16, 2018 Since there seems to be definitive evidence somewhere that schools with armed teachers are far more safe, can you provide some links to prove it? My google must be broken. I’m sure it’s not broken. My guess is you need a new prescription; I’d suggest something more conservative. Israel has been arming their teachers for years. Heard of a mass shooting in an Israeli school? There are 77 guns per 100 citizens in Israel. The US also has schools which arm teachers. Heard of a mass shooting in any of them? What other evidence would satisfy you? Shootings take place in unarmed “gun free zone” schools. But none anywhere else with armed teachers. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penultimatestraw 473 Posted March 16, 2018 Im sure its not broken. My guess is you need a new prescription; Id suggest something more conservative. Israel has been arming their teachers for years. Heard of a mass shooting in an Israeli school? There are 77 guns per 100 citizens in Israel. The US also has schools which arm teachers. Heard of a mass shooting in any of them? What other evidence would satisfy you? Shootings take place in unarmed gun free zone schools. But none anywhere else with armed teachers. There also are a lot of schools in the US and abroad with no armed teachers, yet no shootings. And there have been shootings with armed personnel on campus in the US. A few people have been shot accidentally by their guns too. If you think more guns Per Capita is the solution, the US already tops the world at 101. More than Israel (which has far fewer than you quoted BTW. Plus theyve banned assault rifles and restrict ammunition purchases). How many more armed citizens do we need? One more thing: the whole idea that shootings occur preferentially in gun free zones is flawed. They occur in all sorts of places, usually those with which the shooter(s) have a personal vendetta. And since youre into international comparisons, why arent shootings occurring in gun free zones abroad? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BLS 313 Posted March 16, 2018 There also are a lot of schools in the US and abroad with no armed teachers, yet no shootings. And there have been shootings with armed personnel on campus in the US. A few people have been shot accidentally by their guns too. If you think more guns Per Capita is the solution, the US already tops the world at 101. More than Israel (which has far fewer than you quoted BTW. Plus theyve banned assault rifles and restrict ammunition purchases). How many more armed citizens do we need? One more thing: the whole idea that shootings occur preferentially in gun free zones is flawed. They occur in all sorts of places, usually those with which the shooter(s) have a personal vendetta. And since youre into international comparisons, why arent shootings occurring in gun free zones abroad? 74% of mass shootings happen in gun free zones and 85% of shooting deaths occur in gun free zones. Soft targets are easier to kill. Mass shooting is all about the numbers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patriotsfatboy1 1,432 Posted March 16, 2018 74% of mass shootings happen in gun free zones and 85% of shooting deaths occur in gun free zones. Soft targets are easier to kill. Mass shooting is all about the numbers. What percentage of areas where large numbers of people congregate are gun-free zones? That is sort of an important part of the statistic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parrot 789 Posted March 16, 2018 74% of mass shootings happen in gun free zones and 85% of shooting deaths occur in gun free zones. Got any cites for these numbers? I find that second one especially hard to believe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IMMensaMind 459 Posted March 16, 2018 There also are a lot of schools in the US and abroad with no armed teachers, yet no shootings.Thats your counter? Youre boiling your argument down to the claim that unless EVERY school without any armed presence has gun incidents, we dismiss the fact ONLY schools that have no guns present are the sites of mass murder? And there have been shootings with armed personnel on campus in the US.This is nearly as goofy an argument. What shootings on a university campus would you like to specifically address? University campuses are not nearly as controllable an environment as K-12 schools, as I would hope would be obvious - and thats why I want to see which shooting(s) youd like to cite. By armed personnel, do you mean a mile away? Was the armed personnel able to intervene? A few people have been shot accidentally by their guns too.Do NO accidental shootings have to be the reality before you wont think banning is appropriate? If you think more guns Per Capita is the solution, the US already tops the world at 101.I never said that. I do know that as gun ownership in this country has increased, crime has dropped nearly 50% from prior highs - so clearly guns dont cause crime. This isnt binary: just because I am posting in opposition to your desire to ban guns doesnt mean that I automatically mean that we need more. We simply need to allow more freedom to carry, and in places where they will provide the most deterrence and protection. We have plenty of guns already to do that. Beyond that, I know that the Jewish people would LOVE to revisit history in Germany pre-WWII, and stoop Hitler from disarming them. Before he slaughtered them. More than Israel (which has far fewer than you quoted BTW. Plus theyve banned assault rifles and restrict ammunition purchases).77 per 100. That was cited in an article I referenced right before posted my first response. Ill repost it, after this response (dont want to switch tabs and have my iPad eat this post). How many more armed citizens do we need?Non sequitur. It isnt how many. Its WHERE. We need them in gun free zones. Its the only place there is a problem. One more thing: the whole idea that shootings occur preferentially in gun free zones is flawed. They occur in all sorts of places, usually those with which the shooter(s) have a personal vendetta.They happen nearly exclusively in gun free zones. Even Fort Hood doesnt allow weapons carried freely. And since youre into international comparisons, why arent shootings occurring in gun free zones abroad?ALL shootings abroad are taking place in gun free zones. Did you already forget about the slaughter in Paris? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wiffleball 4,645 Posted March 16, 2018 74% of mass shootings happen in gun free zones and 85% of shooting deaths occur in gun free zones. Soft targets are easier to kill. Mass shooting is all about the numbers. 100% of school shootings occur in school zones. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardcore troubadour 12,656 Posted March 16, 2018 74% of mass shootings happen in gun free zones and 85% of shooting deaths occur in gun free zones. Soft targets are easier to kill. Mass shooting is all about the numbers. So, Baltimore and Chicago are gun free zones? Or do the bad guys all meet at the gun free zone and have a duel? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wiffleball 4,645 Posted March 16, 2018 74% of mass shootings happen in gun free zones and 85% of shooting deaths occur in gun free zones. Soft targets are easier to kill. Mass shooting is all about the numbers. Amazingly, virtually 100% of the murders that occur during mass shootings are in zones that deem such murders illegal. These so-called murder free zones are not effective. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyclone24 1,814 Posted March 16, 2018 You guys get so hung up on whether it's a gun-free zone or not as if someone that has a gun is going to stop a mass shooter anyway. We've covered this countless times. A mass shooting is when four or more have been killed. Unless you are a former or current police military or security.. you're not stepping in to stop it. Gun-free zone or not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
posty 2,296 Posted March 16, 2018 How many schools are there in the United States? Around 100,000 or so? These school shootings are not an epidemic... One hundred school shootings is only 0.1% of the schools... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strike 3,979 Posted March 16, 2018 How many schools are there in the United States? Around 100,000 or so? These school shootings are not an epidemic... One hundred school shootings is only 0.1% of the schools... Yep. Obviously, we'd like to minimize or eliminate them as much as possible but it's amazing how people like Pen get so upset about shootings in general when the odds of any individual being involved in one is almost nil, especially when you remove the gang/inner city statistics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IMMensaMind 459 Posted March 16, 2018 You guys get so hung up on whether it's a gun-free zone or not as if someone that has a gun is going to stop a mass shooter anyway. We've covered this countless times. A mass shooting is when four or more have been killed. Unless you are a former or current police military or security.. you're not stepping in to stop it. http://thefreethoughtproject.com/concealed-carrier-stops-mass-shooting/Gun-free zone or not. Untrue, but doubtless you arrive at this opinion because the MSM hasn’t conditioned you to accept it via actually reporting the times when that very thing happens. IE, as just one recent example: remember when the NRA member stopped the shooter in South (IIRC) Carolina? Confirmed: it was South. I’ll include a rather pathetic equivocation from Snopes to “explain away” the validity of how a legally CCW holder averted more severe consequences: http://thefreethoughtproject.com/concealed-carrier-stops-mass-shooting/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/06/30/concealed-carrier-prevents-mass-shooting-at-south-carolina-nightclub/ Obviously, plenty of home invasions are stopped merely by brandishing weapons. They aren’t celebrated in the media either, hence building confirmation biases exactly like you’ve just demonstrated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IMMensaMind 459 Posted March 16, 2018 You guys get so hung up on whether it's a gun-free zone or not as if someone that has a gun is going to stop a mass shooter anyway. We've covered this countless times. A mass shooting is when four or more have been killed. Unless you are a former or current police military or security.. you're not stepping in to stop it. Gun-free zone or not. Name a mass shooting of 8 or more in the US which didn’t take place in a posted gun free zone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BLS 313 Posted March 16, 2018 You guys get so hung up on whether it's a gun-free zone or not as if someone that has a gun is going to stop a mass shooter anyway. We've covered this countless times. A mass shooting is when four or more have been killed. Unless you are a former or current police military or security.. you're not stepping in to stop it. Gun-free zone or not. How can you say that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strike 3,979 Posted March 16, 2018 How can you say that? Yeah, it could NEVER happen!!! http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/08/texas-church-shooting-not-first-time-good-guy-with-gun-takes-down-mass-shooter.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BLS 313 Posted March 16, 2018 Got any cites for these numbers? I find that second one especially hard to believe. https://crimeresearch.org/2014/09/more-misleading-information-from-bloombergs-everytown-for-gun-safety-on-guns-analysis-of-recent-mass-shootings/ https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/gun-free-zones.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyclone24 1,814 Posted March 16, 2018 Yeah, it could NEVER happen!!! http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/08/texas-church-shooting-not-first-time-good-guy-with-gun-takes-down-mass-shooter.html Me and you have a different definition of stopping. I don't call 26 people dying and then the guy leaving stopping Jack crap.FYI... While the guy who showed up did hit him twice the Fatal shot was a self-inflicted Bullet to the Head. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wiffleball 4,645 Posted March 16, 2018 How many schools are there in the United States? Around 100,000 or so? These school shootings are not an epidemic... One hundred school shootings is only 0.1% of the schools... So, casinos have had it far worse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyclone24 1,814 Posted March 16, 2018 Name a mass shooting of 8 or more in the US which didnt take place in a posted gun free zone. Lol...8 or more. I have a feeling I know why you wanted it to be twice would the FBI list is the criteria for a mass shooting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strike 3,979 Posted March 16, 2018 Me and you have a different definition of stopping. I don't call 26 people dying and then the guy leaving stopping Jack crap. FYI... While the guy who showed up did hit him twice the Fatal shot was a self-inflicted Bullet to the Head. Apparently you didn't read the entire article. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyclone24 1,814 Posted March 16, 2018 Apparently you didn't read the entire article. Yes sweetheart and if you would actually do a little more research I stopped after the first two because the principal was a former military person and the church shooting in Colorado Springs was stopped by a former security guard. Thanks for making my point for me. Do more research Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strike 3,979 Posted March 16, 2018 Yes sweetheart and if you would actually do a little more research I stopped after the first two because the principal was a former military person and the church shooting in Colorado Springs was stopped by a former security guard. Thanks for making my point for me. Do more research You didn't even comprehend the little you did read. The CO springs hero wasn't a former security guard but a VOLUNTEER security guard. And what does that have to do with anything anyways? Do you consider security guards to be any more qualified than the average joe? I don't really look at security guards as any kind of savior. But let me help you out some more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/?utm_term=.69c367d67f88 Can't wait for your retort about this article. You know, there's no shame in admitting when you're wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BLS 313 Posted March 16, 2018 Me and you have a different definition of stopping. I don't call 26 people dying and then the guy leaving stopping Jack crap. FYI... While the guy who showed up did hit him twice the Fatal shot was a self-inflicted Bullet to the Head. It stopped him, did it not? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyclone24 1,814 Posted March 16, 2018 You didn't even comprehend the little you did read. The CO springs hero wasn't a former security guard but a VOLUNTEER security guard. And what does that have to do with anything anyways? Do you consider security guards to be any more qualified than the average joe? I don't really look at security guards as any kind of savior. But let me help you out some more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/?utm_term=.69c367d67f88 Can't wait for your retort about this article. You know, there's no shame in admitting when you're wrong. Jesus Christ... Do you Google anything? She was a former police officer Then a volunteer security guard. And most of those examples in the article Don't even qualify as mass shootings. You should probably stop posting for a little while. You're getting your ass kicked Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyclone24 1,814 Posted March 16, 2018 It stopped him, did it not? I don't call killing 26 people and being able to leave stopping anything no. Especially when he shot himself to death. Now I know it what your argument is going to be that he could have gone on to chill more. Yeah and he could have gone to freaking Arby's for all we know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strike 3,979 Posted March 16, 2018 Jesus Christ... Do you Google anything? She was a former police officer Then a volunteer security guard. And most of those examples in the article Don't even qualify as mass shootings. You should probably stop posting for a little while. You're getting your ass kicked You mean all the ones where the shooter was going to kill more people but because of a civilian stopping him they didn't? You're actually discounting the incidents because the perp was stopped BEFORE they could kill more people? You're a focking sick fock. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyclone24 1,814 Posted March 16, 2018 You mean all the ones where the shooter was going to kill more people but because of a civilian stopping him they didn't? You're actually discounting the incidents because the perp was stopped BEFORE they could kill more people? You're a focking sick fock. No you dipshiit... The ones where two people got into a fight and one started shooting and wounded a couple other people. This does not qualify as a mass shooting. Jesus strike I can make a better argument for your case than you can. I think I probably know of a case you could better use. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strike 3,979 Posted March 16, 2018 No you dipshiit... The ones where two people got into a fight and one started shooting and wounded a couple other people. This does not qualify as a mass shooting. Jesus strike I can make a better argument for your case than you can. I think I probably know of a case you could better use. That's one incident. There are a bunch mentioned in the article. Let me remind you of the quote I responded to: A mass shooting is when four or more have been killed. Unless you are a former or current police military or security.. you're not stepping in to stop it. Gun-free zone or not. The articles I posted clearly show non former/current police military or security stopping mass shootings. You can nit pick individual cases if you want but in totality you're wrong and disputing that just makes you look more foolish. It's amazing how many people on this bored refuse to acknowledge being wrong despite definitive evidence that they are. And the name calling is a nice touch. It really shows your ability to have an intelligent discussion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyclone24 1,814 Posted March 16, 2018 That's one incident. There are a bunch mentioned in the article. Let me remind you of the quote I responded to: The articles I posted clearly show non former/current police military or security stopping mass shootings. You can nit pick individual cases if you want but in totality you're wrong and disputing that just makes you look more foolish. It's amazing how many people on this bored refuse to acknowledge being wrong despite definitive evidence that they are. And the name calling is a nice touch. It really shows your ability to have an intelligent discussion. Go through your incidents. Your inability to count to the number for is mind-boggling. Four people have to be killed and then superhero Joe Blow comes in and saves the day. It doesn't happen. Read your own incidents. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parrot 789 Posted March 16, 2018 And the name calling is a nice touch. It really shows your ability to have an intelligent discussion. Didn't you just call him "a focking sick fock"? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyclone24 1,814 Posted March 16, 2018 Didn't you just call him "a focking sick fock"? I'm waiting for the "Mom he started it!" Defense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penultimatestraw 473 Posted March 16, 2018 74% of mass shootings happen in gun free zones and 85% of shooting deaths occur in gun free zones. Soft targets are easier to kill. Mass shooting is all about the numbers. I think those numbers are inaccurate. What percentage of areas where large numbers of people congregate are gun-free zones? That is sort of an important part of the statistic. And this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
