Why do we have a vaccine against a virus?

[jerryskids 6,790]

1 minute ago, TimHauck said:

 

So neither the vaccine nor natural infection provide immunity against Omicron infection, correct?

Can we just get to your big reveal?  This is tiring.   

[TimHauck 2,858]

5 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Can we just get to your big reveal?  This is tiring.   

I've already said it.  In the age of Omicron, the vaccine and the virus provide about the same level of "immunity."  You can quibble about how "immunity" is defined, and say either both give you "immunity" or neither give you "immunity," but you can't say you get "immunity" from the virus but not the vaccine.

[KSB2424 3,148]

People were blatantly misled about the efficacy of the Covid vaccines by our government and health professionals.  They told us it was extremely effective, they told us if you were vaccinated you couldn’t give it to Grandma.  All of that was FALSE. Period. Full Stop. 

Maybe that was because the trials were rushed, maybe (more likely) it was because they treated the public like children and told little white lies because they thought it was in our best interests.  

But you don’t get to rewrite history this time; we were all there and lived it.  Play all the semantics games you want, keep moving the goal posts. Doesn’t matter, we were there.  

[jerryskids 6,790]

1 minute ago, TimHauck said:

I've already said it.  In the age of Omicron, the vaccine and the virus provide about the same level of "immunity."  You can quibble about how "immunity" is defined, and say either both give you "immunity" or neither give you "immunity," but you can't say you get "immunity" from the virus but not the vaccine.

OK.  I'm not sure I've ever said you get immunity from the virus.  People clearly have gotten Covid multiple times.

[TimHauck 2,858]

5 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

OK.  I'm not sure I've ever said you get immunity from the virus.  People clearly have gotten Covid multiple times.

Sorry didn't just mean "you" specifically

[jerryskids 6,790]

1 minute ago, KSB2424 said:

People were blatantly misled about the efficacy of the Covid vaccines by our government and health professionals.  They old us it was effective, they told us if you were vaccinated you couldn’t give it to Grandma.  All of that was FALSE. Period. Full Stop. 

Maybe that was because the trials were rushed, maybe (more likely) it was because they treated the public like children and told little white lies because they thought it was in our best interests.  

But yiy don’t get to rewrite history this time; we were all there and lived it.  

I don't think this is a fair assessment.  Here is how I see it:

1. Vaccines provided immunity for the initial strain, alpha, maybe delta? (Honestly I don't recall at this point.)

2. At some point they stopped providing immunity for a mutation (Omicron?) but the gubment kept with the protecting grandma message, that is where the lies were in full force.  They do however provide some therapeutic relief which helps especially with the elderly and infirmed.  But young/healthy people should not have been pushed to get it.

3. The insistence on vaxing healthy young children was diabolical and the people who did that should be drawn and quartered.  I can only presume it was to appease teachers' unions who were afraid older teachers might get it and die (but, see #2 above).  

4. Early on, I and some other super smartz people here predicted that this would become like the annual flu shot.  And here we are.  

[GutterBoy 2,899]

1 minute ago, KSB2424 said:

People were blatantly misled about the efficacy of the Covid vaccines by our government and health professionals.  They old us it was effective, they told us if you were vaccinated you couldn’t give it to Grandma.  All of that was FALSE. Period. Full Stop. 

Maybe that was because the trials were rushed, maybe (more likely) it was because they treated the public like children and told little white lies because they thought it was in our best interests.  

But yiy don’t get to rewrite history this time; we were all there and lived it.  

I don't see anyone trying to rewrite history, but we do have to get one fact straight.

The clinical trials for the Pfizer vaccine showed 90% efficacy against Covid.  Then the virus mutated, and what we saw in the real world was not as good, and it didn't last more than a few months.

In hindsight, they would probably have been better off without the warp speed honestly.  Because now we have a whole segment of the population that doesn't trust the govt or pharma companies or vaccines, and they don't have the capacity to understand what warp speed means and how things change.

[jerryskids 6,790]

1 minute ago, GutterBoy said:

I don't see anyone trying to rewrite history, but we do have to get one fact straight.

The clinical trials for the Pfizer vaccine showed 90% efficacy against Covid.  Then the virus mutated, and what we saw in the real world was not as good, and it didn't last more than a few months.

In hindsight, they would probably have been better off without the warp speed honestly.  Because now we have a whole segment of the population that doesn't trust the govt or pharma companies or vaccines, and they don't have the capacity to understand what warp speed means and how things change.

Warp Speed made sense when we were facing a potential existential crisis.  If the option was to take a shot which grows a third eye or face a 99% chance of death, you take the third eye.  The overriding problem IMO is that the government didn't call off the dogs once the crisis reduced.

I also find it interesting, and I'm sure I said it here before, that the same people who say "oops it didn't last as long as we thought" will say with confidence that there are no/minimal long term effects.  Kinda by definition we proved that we didn't know what the vax would do 6 months out (i.e., stop being effective), yet we know that long term there are no negative impacts?  Those are the things you miss out on for a Warp Speed.  But again, the crisis determines the tradeoffs.

[KSB2424 3,148]

15 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

I don't think this is a fair assessment.  Here is how I see it:

1. Vaccines provided immunity for the initial strain, alpha, maybe delta? (Honestly I don't recall at this point.)

2. At some point they stopped providing immunity for a mutation (Omicron?) but the gubment kept with the protecting grandma message, that is where the lies were in full force.  They do however provide some therapeutic relief which helps especially with the elderly and infirmed.  But young/healthy people should not have been pushed to get it.

3. The insistence on vaxing healthy young children was diabolical and the people who did that should be drawn and quartered.  I can only presume it was to appease teachers' unions who were afraid older teachers might get it and die (but, see #2 above).  

4. Early on, I and some other super smartz people here predicted that this would become like the annual flu shot.  And here we are.  

Well sure, you just typed more nuanced words.  

I am pro vaccines (in general) and think they are one of medicines greatest inventions to be quite honest. 

I have a natural distrust of politicians but generally <mostly> trusted the CDC, FDA, ect.  That was pre-Covid.  I have zero doubt they deliberately withheld data and misled the American public about Covid Vaccines.  The mandates, the anti-vax rhetoric, the public shaming for even QUESTIONING the shots I will never forget nor forgive.  I too, distinctly remember questioning early on *would* these vaccines be like the flu shot?  Where it’s a guesstimate on strains / variants and you have to get one every year.  That was labeled “disinformation”

That happened, we don’t get to white wash it now.  
 

[GutterBoy 2,899]

6 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Warp Speed made sense when we were facing a potential existential crisis.  If the option was to take a shot which grows a third eye or face a 99% chance of death, you take the third eye.  The overriding problem IMO is that the government didn't call off the dogs once the crisis reduced.

I also find it interesting, and I'm sure I said it here before, that the same people who say "oops it didn't last as long as we thought" will say with confidence that there are no/minimal long term effects.  Kinda by definition we proved that we didn't know what the vax would do 6 months out (i.e., stop being effective), yet we know that long term there are no negative impacts?  Those are the things you miss out on for a Warp Speed.  But again, the crisis determines the tradeoffs.

Yeah but how did we know the crisis was reduced?  What if there was another mutation that was more deadly?

Hindsight is always 20/20.  The truth is humans are not perfect.  Mistakes were made, we learned, that's science, that's life.  But instead we have people arguing about the definitions of words.

[TimHauck 2,858]

On 8/12/2023 at 9:46 AM, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

Yes natural immunity exists. Covid vaccine immunity doesn’t 

Exhibit A to my earlier point.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

12 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Exhibit A to my earlier point.

So if you get the vaccine you can’t get Covid. We’re back to this point. Yet you refuse your boosters  

[jerryskids 6,790]

18 minutes ago, GutterBoy said:

Yeah but how did we know the crisis was reduced?  What if there was another mutation that was more deadly?

Hindsight is always 20/20.  The truth is humans are not perfect.  Mistakes were made, we learned, that's science, that's life.  But instead we have people arguing about the definitions of words.

Again, it's a risk management analysis.  Heck, some new super deadly could show up tomorrow, should we isolate now?  Of course not, the risk doesn't justify the reward.

Honestly it is quite naive of you to look back on what happened and chalk it all up to mistakes, learning, science, that's life.  There was some of that of course, but there was also a whole lotta intentional lies as time went on.  I suppose that you could say that the powers that be were afraid that if they took the pedal off the gas, they could never regain traction again, so let's just keep keeping on with it, and call that a "mistake."  

[TimHauck 2,858]

33 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

So if you get the vaccine you can’t get Covid. 

Where did I say that?

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

18 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Where did I say that?

I dunno you decided to quote me for some reason. Not like I sit and read all the nonsense you post 

[TimHauck 2,858]

7 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

I dunno you decided to quote me for some reason. Not like I sit and read all the nonsense you post 

The argument going on here is whether or not the covid vaccine gives immunity.

I was saying that whether or not you believe it does, that would be the same yes or no for natural infection giving immunity as well.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

7 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

The argument going on here is whether or not the covid vaccine gives immunity.

I was saying that whether or not you believe it does, that would be the same yes or no for natural infection giving immunity as well.

Since the vaccine never gave any immunity and Covid gave some it’s not comparable 

[TimHauck 2,858]

1 minute ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

Since the vaccine never gave any immunity and Covid gave some it’s not comparable 

The clinical trials and multiple pre-Omicron studies beg to differ

[nobody 2,667]

1 hour ago, GutterBoy said:

Yeah but how did we know the crisis was reduced?  What if there was another mutation that was more deadly?

Hindsight is always 20/20.  The truth is humans are not perfect.  Mistakes were made, we learned, that's science, that's life.  But instead we have people arguing about the definitions of words.

It wasn't hindsight.  A lot of people saw what was obvious in real time.

[nobody 2,667]

1 hour ago, jerryskids said:

Again, it's a risk management analysis.  Heck, some new super deadly could show up tomorrow, should we isolate now?  Of course not, the risk doesn't justify the reward.

Honestly it is quite naive of you to look back on what happened and chalk it all up to mistakes, learning, science, that's life.  There was some of that of course, but there was also a whole lotta intentional lies as time went on.  I suppose that you could say that the powers that be were afraid that if they took the pedal off the gas, they could never regain traction again, so let's just keep keeping on with it, and call that a "mistake."  

I remember when all those kids went down to Florida for spring break, and during interviews the party goers correctly indicated covid was less severe for young people.

That's when the media jumped into overdrive highlighting every young person that got a severe case of vid, staying they were going to kill grandma, lying that everyone was going to be on ventilators, and trying to cancel anyone that dared question whether we should tank the economy.

Then the lies carried over through the covid shots.

Once again, the politicians fock us over because they wanted to be right instead of getting it right.  And, of course, the covidians lapped it all up.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

1 hour ago, TimHauck said:

The clinical trials and multiple pre-Omicron studies beg to differ

uh huh cool, nobody was immune from covid, never no time at all zero

[TimHauck 2,858]

33 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

uh huh cool, nobody was immune from covid, never no time at all zero

If by “immune” you mean it was possible to be infected, then this statement would also include those naturally infected

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

6 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

If by “immune” you mean it was possible to be infected, then this statement would also include those naturally infected

yep just like you can always get the sniffles after you had them, however your body does create antibodies, something the "vaxx" never did, so immunity was never achieved from it

 

[TimHauck 2,858]

6 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

yep just like you can always get the sniffles after you had them, however your body does create antibodies, something the "vaxx" never did, so immunity was never achieved from it

 

Well now you’re just lying, but what else is new

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

2 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Well now you’re just lying, but what else is new

how am I lying, how come everyone I know got the Rona after the vaxx?

either it stopped the Rona or it didnt, and it didnt

 

[TheNewGirl 1,489]

8 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

yep just like you can always get the sniffles after you had them, however your body does create antibodies, something the "vaxx" never did, so immunity was never achieved from it

 

Where does it say the vaccine NEVER created antibodies? I'd like to read more about that. 

[TimHauck 2,858]

2 minutes ago, TheNewGirl said:

Where does it say the vaccine NEVER created antibodies? I'd like to read more about that. 

He made it up 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

7 minutes ago, TheNewGirl said:

Where does it say the vaccine NEVER created antibodies? I'd like to read more about that. 

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) discourages antibody testing for assessing immunity after getting the vaccine. A vaccinated person is very likely to get a negative result from a serology test, even if the vaccine was successful and protective.Mar 29, 2021

and for the last few years the narrative changed to it never stopped the spread to it prevents sever illness same as the flu shot. Nothing more 

but I’m sure Tim can post some sweet tweets sponsored by big pharma 

[TheNewGirl 1,489]

1 minute ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) discourages antibody testing for assessing immunity after getting the vaccine. A vaccinated person is very likely to get a negative result from a serology test, even if the vaccine was successful and protective.Mar 29, 2021

That doesn't say it's because the vaccine doesn't create antibodies, just that the serology tests might not show any. 

Now, I did read that people who are immunocompromised STILL have a greater chance of getting Covid after being vaccinated than a normal immune system. Simply because the medications they are on for being compromised counteracts and their bodies won't produce antibodies. The vaccine is only about 50% effective (or less) in people who are immunocompromised. I found that interesting as they touted that those are the people we should try and protect and should get the vaccine ASAP. 

 

Where is the full link/text to what you posted here? 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

4 minutes ago, TheNewGirl said:

That doesn't say it's because the vaccine doesn't create antibodies, just that the serology tests might not show any. 

Now, I did read that people who are immunocompromised STILL have a greater chance of getting Covid after being vaccinated than a normal immune system. Simply because the medications they are on for being compromised counteracts and their bodies won't produce antibodies. The vaccine is only about 50% effective (or less) in people who are immunocompromised. I found that interesting as they touted that those are the people we should try and protect and should get the vaccine ASAP. 

 

Where is the full link/text to what you posted here? 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/overview-COVID-19-vaccines.html#protein-subunit

here it creates a protein that may help your body fight off future infection, however does not provide immunity

which is what I have said all along. get it if you want, all 25

[TimHauck 2,858]

21 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

how am I lying, how come everyone I know got the Rona after the vaxx?

either it stopped the Rona or it didnt, and it didnt

 

It didn’t “stop” infection, but once again neither did prior natural infection.  But the antibodies produced by both vaccination and natural infection helped prevent severe illness.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

2 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

It didn’t “stop” infection, but once again neither did prior natural infection.  But the antibodies produced by both vaccination and natural infection helped prevent severe illness.

whatever I never got it again, around tons of people who were sick with it

its like the surgeon general said, the only way to stop it is once everyone has it 

 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,414]

Trump said the vaccine is working and if you do get Covid it will be minimized. Biden said you won’t get it. 

[TimHauck 2,858]

6 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

whatever I never got it again, around tons of people who were sick with it

Cool anecdote, other people did, even @lod001 who once claimed it was impossible to be reinfected posted a study literally showing it was possible.  Lol, what an idiot that guy is.

[TheNewGirl 1,489]

FWIW, I've had three shots (two first ones and just one booster). I've had CoVid twice, each time the experience was different as well. First time I basically lost taste and smell for a while, no other symptoms. Second time felt like a cold/flu combo; I just felt like cr@p for a week or so. 

Did my shots help? I will never know. 

My family only got the first two vaccines, they've all had Covid once. I'm the only one who's had it twice in our household. 

[TimHauck 2,858]

Pretty good summary right here:

 

 

[TimHauck 2,858]

On 8/30/2023 at 3:51 PM, TBayXXXVII said:

If it makes you happy, I can pretend you are correct.

 

On 8/30/2023 at 3:55 PM, TimHauck said:

Only at the Geek Club would someone think a program called "Operation Warp Speed" wouldn't have any responsibility if safety issues were missed.   @BuckSwope I know you commented when I brought up this general argument in a different thread, this is what we're dealing with here.

 

On 8/30/2023 at 4:01 PM, TBayXXXVII said:

Yeah, I know it's hard for people like you to discuss things with common sense and logic.

 

LOL, are you really saying you're using logic by saying that it makes sense to say Trump should get some credit if the vaccine is a success, but no blame if it's bad?  At least some righties are somewhat consistent with their covidvax-hating, although they of course don't mention the name of the guy that led Operation Warp Speed:

 

 

(I understand that the pharmaceutical companies having no liability was set up before Trump, but he's still the main one that pushed for the faster approval process)

[TBayXXXVII 2,545]

47 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

(I understand that the pharmaceutical companies having no liability was set up before Trump, but he's still the main one that pushed for the faster approval process)

Right, something that someone else put in place and was the working plan... Trump used it and NO ONE in Congress said "WAIT!!!", but it's Trump's fault.  Got it.

By the way, here's your "Operation Warp Speed":
 

"Operation Warp Speed (OWS)—a partnership between the Departments of Health and Human Services (HHS) and Defense (DOD)—aimed to help accelerate the development of a COVID-19 vaccine. GAO found that OWS and vaccine companies adopted several strategies to accelerate vaccine development and mitigate risk."

 

Trump listened to the people's who's job it was to understand the situation and enacted their recommendation.  If you want people to blame if things eventually don't plan out, go to look to the HHS and DoD.

[TimHauck 2,858]

3 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Right, something that someone else put in place and was the working plan... Trump used it and NO ONE in Congress said "WAIT!!!", but it's Trump's fault.  Got it.

 

No, it's not Trump's fault that people aren't getting compensated for legitimate vaccine injuries.   But it would be partly his fault if there are a significant # of injuries in the first place (which I don't think there are).  Operation Warp Speed was his plan.

[TBayXXXVII 2,545]

5 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

No, it's not Trump's fault that people aren't getting compensated for legitimate vaccine injuries.   But it would be partly his fault if there are a significant # of injuries in the first place (which I don't think there are).  Operation Warp Speed was his plan.

Gotchya.  In the link I gave you which explains Operation Warp Speed... an NO POINT mentions Donald Trump's name.  Yet, you'll still find a way to blame him.  Like I said at the very beginning... "Good for you".