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Ukraine - Doomsday

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12 hours ago, fandandy said:

The Petrodollar is a thing of the past sooner rather than later.  That is a fact.  Then what?  How many Trillions in debt are "we".

The USA could sh1t the bed when it not even laying in the bed.  

Putin is smart.  He single-handedly lifted his nation from the morass. 

Hate on him all you guys want.

Many here seem to lack the ability to think long term.  

 

How do you think the average Russian lives compared to the average American?  Use your head.

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14 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

One thing liberals don’t understand about the rest of the world is that most of it looks at western culture and the trajectory that liberals have put it on and are disgusted by it and want no part of it. There was a time when the rest of the world saw  the Beatles , girls in bikinis and convertibles and wanted a piece of that. Now they see chicks with diks, 50 cent and the Kardashians and say not only do we not want a part of that , we want to destroy it. 

And when they saw the Beatles and girls in bikinis, a good portion of them thought it was godless hedonism. Such is the way of history :dunno:

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3 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Don’t believe everything you’re told about what’s going on there. There have already been plenty of lies told by both sides. Also, any story whose source is “western officials” needs to be dismissed. As we found out during the Trump administration, consistent anonymous sources are a red flag.  

You know, it’s funny, you guys on the right, you’re not necessarily wrong on the issues, you just draw all the wrong conclusions from them.

Yes, in war you can’t really trust much of anything. But fundamentally, we know that Russia was the aggressor here, that it was totally unprovoked in any literal sense, and that we have a case of an authoritarian regime invading and attempting to subjugate a western democracy, albeit a newer one.

So there’s only one viable side here, unless you do not like democracy and support wars of aggression. Hence, there’s really no need to get caught up in the minutiae of what specific stories coming out of the war are true or not. Your side is with the Ukraine and that’s it, it’s really quite simple.

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12 hours ago, Voltaire said:

They could have used his help but Putin brings a huge amount of other problems with him. Let's hope that Le Pen wins the French election and see if the European people can't wake up and cure themselves of what the coporatist globalist elite are inflicting on them. I heard a poll csm out thst had LePen above Macron in a head to head runoff, so it seems she has a decent shot. Italy looks poised to swing to the people too, hopefully.

You’re cheering on authoritarian fascism. Do you not realize that, or are you just okay with it?

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14 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

You know, it’s funny, you guys on the right, you’re not necessarily wrong on the issues, you just draw all the wrong conclusions from them.

Yes, in war you can’t really trust much of anything. But fundamentally, we know that Russia was the aggressor here, that it was totally unprovoked in any literal sense, and that we have a case of an authoritarian regime invading and attempting to subjugate a western democracy, albeit a newer one.

So there’s only one viable side here, unless you do not like democracy and support wars of aggression. Hence, there’s really no need to get caught up in the minutiae of what specific stories coming out of the war are true or not. Your side is with the Ukraine and that’s it, it’s really quite simple.

Yeah. I side with Ukraine over Putin, of course. I’m just. Not giving a free pass to the Ukraine government and the west. Both are possible and not the wrong conclusion. It’s the 100 pct right one. Framing it as good vs evil is the wrong conclusion. It’s not that good vs evil. 

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13 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

You’re cheering on authoritarian fascism. Do you not realize that, or are you just okay with it?

Is she a fascist like Trump was a fascist? 

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1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Is she a fascist like Trump was a fascist? 

Will she try to overthrow the government if she loses? Time will tell

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1 minute ago, IGotWorms said:

Will she try to overthrow the government if she loses? Time will tell

Who stopped him from overthrowing the government? How did they do it? 

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1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Who stopped him from overthrowing the government? How did they do it? 

Many republican members of Congress fortunately wouldn’t go along with it, Mike Pence as well. Also state officials in Georgia, Arizona, Pennsylvania, etc. 

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24 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

You know, it’s funny, you guys on the right, you’re not necessarily wrong on the issues, you just draw all the wrong conclusions from them.

Yes, in war you can’t really trust much of anything. But fundamentally, we know that Russia was the aggressor here, that it was totally unprovoked in any literal sense, and that we have a case of an authoritarian regime invading and attempting to subjugate a western democracy, albeit a newer one.

So there’s only one viable side here, unless you do not like democracy and support wars of aggression. Hence, there’s really no need to get caught up in the minutiae of what specific stories coming out of the war are true or not. Your side is with the Ukraine and that’s it, it’s really quite simple.

You are historically illiterate.     Not meaning that your illiteracy is at historic levels, meaning that you have not even a basic understanding of the history of that region and ours and NATO's involvement there and with Russia.    

And speaking of "wrong conclusions" - that the only possible acceptable stance is "Ukraine = unequivocal support form us.   Russia = Hitler".     You can say that the invasion was wrong and should be opposed but also think we should be very, very careful about how deep we get in bed with the Ukrainians and how hard we go after the Russians on this. 

You know, you guys on the left not only are wrong on the issues but you also wrong in your conclusions. . .

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5 minutes ago, Masshole said:

You are historically illiterate.     Not meaning that your illiteracy is at historic levels, meaning that you have not even a basic understanding of the history of that region and ours and NATO's involvement there and with Russia.    

And speaking of "wrong conclusions" - that the only possible acceptable stance is "Ukraine = unequivocal support form us.   Russia = Hitler".     You can say that the invasion was wrong and should be opposed but also think we should be very, very careful about how deep we get in bed with the Ukrainians and how hard we go after the Russians on this. 

You know, you guys on the left not only are wrong on the issues but you also wrong in your conclusions. . .

You're basing this on the lie that the Ukraine was a threat to Russia, which is being repeated in the Russian media and the alt right websites you follow.

Of course you don't have the mental capacity to understand this, but the rest of us do.  I'm sorry.

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38 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

You know, it’s funny, you guys on the right, you’re not necessarily wrong on the issues, you just draw all the wrong conclusions from them.

Yes, in war you can’t really trust much of anything. But fundamentally, we know that Russia was the aggressor here, that it was totally unprovoked in any literal sense, and that we have a case of an authoritarian regime invading and attempting to subjugate a western democracy, albeit a newer one.

So there’s only one viable side here, unless you do not like democracy and support wars of aggression. Hence, there’s really no need to get caught up in the minutiae of what specific stories coming out of the war are true or not. Your side is with the Ukraine and that’s it, it’s really quite simple.

Every now & then....pearls of wisdom. 

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15 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

Many republican members of Congress fortunately wouldn’t go along with it, Mike Pence as well. Also state officials in Georgia, Arizona, Pennsylvania, etc. 

Yeah but how did he attempt to overthrow it?

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17 minutes ago, Masshole said:

You are historically illiterate.     Not meaning that your illiteracy is at historic levels, meaning that you have not even a basic understanding of the history of that region and ours and NATO's involvement there and with Russia.    

And speaking of "wrong conclusions" - that the only possible acceptable stance is "Ukraine = unequivocal support form us.   Russia = Hitler".     You can say that the invasion was wrong and should be opposed but also think we should be very, very careful about how deep we get in bed with the Ukrainians and how hard we go after the Russians on this. 

You know, you guys on the left not only are wrong on the issues but you also wrong in your conclusions. . .

Yeah okay, NATO had the temerity to foster democracy in former “soviet territory.” If you’re with democracy, this really shouldn’t be an issue for you. But even if you’re not, doesn’t change the fact that this was an unprovoked war of aggression. It’s not like NATO was lobbing missiles into Russia from the Ukraine or anything :wacko:

 

But you are about one thing: how far we go is a legit question. Thus far we haven’t done much, spent some money on equipment, agreed to take some refugees, put in place some sanctions that hurt Europe a lot more than us. And I’m okay with that. There comes a point you have to respond to authoritarianism but we aren’t there yet, and obviously it’s a huge, HUGE risk in modern times versus a nuclear-armed opponent.

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22 minutes ago, vomit said:

You're basing this on the lie that the Ukraine was a threat to Russia, which is being repeated in the Russian media and the alt right websites you follow.

Of course you don't have the mental capacity to understand this, but the rest of us do.  I'm sorry.

No, not even close.    But that's a nice strawman you've got there. 

With your massive mental capacity, why don't you go research the history of our agreements with the Russians about where the borders of NATO would stop after the collapse of the Soviet Union and see for yourself how many times we've violated that.    And then use your big brain to put yourself in the Russians perspective on these moves and then think of how you would see the overtures to get Georgia and Ukraine into NATO and our support of the "color revolutions" in those places.     And then after you've rested your big brain for a bit, do some research into how the Ukrainians treated Russian speaking Ukrainians after 2014.     Let me know after your big brain has digested all that - I'll give you some more homework to do.  

It says a lot that you can't even see nor understand anything beyond the most simplistic interpretation of events that you've been fed by MSM/Dems like a baby seagull eating a barfed up fish from its mother. 

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7 hours ago, vomit said:

Asked if you feel bad for ukranians being murdered, your response, BIDEN.

that says it all

Because I care more about the US right now than anyone overseas.

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3 hours ago, Masshole said:

No, not even close.    But that's a nice strawman you've got there. 

With your massive mental capacity, why don't you go research the history of our agreements with the Russians about where the borders of NATO would stop after the collapse of the Soviet Union and see for yourself how many times we've violated that.    And then use your big brain to put yourself in the Russians perspective on these moves and then think of how you would see the overtures to get Georgia and Ukraine into NATO and our support of the "color revolutions" in those places.     And then after you've rested your big brain for a bit, do some research into how the Ukrainians treated Russian speaking Ukrainians after 2014.     Let me know after your big brain has digested all that - I'll give you some more homework to do.  

It says a lot that you can't even see nor understand anything beyond the most simplistic interpretation of events that you've been fed by MSM/Dems like a baby seagull eating a barfed up fish from its mother. 

Hey retard, NATO never promised not to move eastward.  Jim Baker allegedly said this but it was never policy.  Again, you're citing Russian propoganda because you can't think for yourself

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24 minutes ago, vomit said:

Hey retard, NATO never promised not to move eastward.  Jim Baker allegedly said this but it was never policy.  Again, you're citing Russian propoganda because you can't think for yourself

Go Russia!!!

You call everything you don't like Russian propoganda. You sound like a liberal. 

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16 minutes ago, Utilit99 said:

Go Russia!!!

You call everything you don't like Russian propoganda. You sound like a liberal. 

Has nothing to do with what I like or don't like.

Its about what's true and false

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12 minutes ago, vomit said:

Has nothing to do with what I like or don't like.

Its about what's true and false

I'm just saying not everything is Russian propaganda. :dunno:

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Remember when they said there were no western funded bio labs in Ukraine? That was a lie. 

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NATO's response to a drone (6 ton) bomb flying through Romania, Hungary, Croatia and crashing March 11 in the Croatian Capitol was nothing. 

 

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37 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Remember when they said there were no western funded bio labs in Ukraine? That was a lie. 

Remember when they said that the bio labs were creating covid to unleash in Russia?  That was a lie

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7 hours ago, IGotWorms said:

You know, it’s funny, you guys on the right, you’re not necessarily wrong on the issues, you just draw all the wrong conclusions from them.

Yes, in war you can’t really trust much of anything. But fundamentally, we know that Russia was the aggressor here, that it was totally unprovoked in any literal sense, and that we have a case of an authoritarian regime invading and attempting to subjugate a western democracy, albeit a newer one.

So there’s only one viable side here, unless you do not like democracy and support wars of aggression. Hence, there’s really no need to get caught up in the minutiae of what specific stories coming out of the war are true or not. Your side is with the Ukraine and that’s it, it’s really quite simple.

 I'm usually i agreement with these guys rather than you, but on this page I've given you two likes, including this one. I am having trouble wrapping my head around their position myself for the reasons you outline: the aggressor is clear and democracy spreading anywhere in the world is a good thing when it develops organically, not via US military intervention. 

In fairness though, I can understand going into this both the hostility towards Ukraine as well as some semblance of affinity towards Putin. In regards to Ukraine, Ukraine had been investigating a dubiously ethical oil company Burisma, Burisma put Hunter Biden on the board who in turn (apparently) got his dad, the former vice president, to pressure the Ukrainians to get the prosecutor fired. When President Trump wanted this investigated, the Democrats impeached him over it. So people are pissed about that. My own take is that Ukraine caved because they preferred taking the aid money over pissing off former Vice President Biden and the big money from the globalists in the EU.

As for Putin, every word of criticism of western culture and decadence that comes out of his mouth rings true. It's entirely accurate and being knee deep in this cultural suicidal stupidity, I love the outside perspective. Frankly I find his diagnosis of what ails the west rather Tocqueville-like. Not hyperbole. I've posted a link before, I can do so again to show what I mean if you want me to dig up a link. But that admiration comes to screeching halt at that point. He knows our problems well but his solutions for his own country are awful and not worthy of admiration. This is not Putin's first invasion, it's his fifth and most aggressive. His expansionary tendencies are well documented. Plus his hostility towards democracy, jailing of dissidents, ordering hits on opponents even outside his own country. You have to be willing to overlook a lot of bad sh*t to admire Putin and I never boarded that train, I just noticed some good points he was making and agreed with them. 

Anyway, I think if you take that, and mix in hostility to the news media and the EU, and Biden*, you can maybe formulate the groundwork for some semblance of affinity/hostility... but not me. This is just brute aggression of a tyrannical despot against a weak democracy neighbor. The lines should be very clear.

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2 hours ago, vomit said:

Hey retard, NATO never promised not to move eastward.  Jim Baker allegedly said this but it was never policy.  Again, you're citing Russian propoganda because you can't think for yourself

You are so one dimensional.     NATO was originated and purposed to oppose the Soviet Communists.      After the collapse of the Soviet system, what was NATO's purpose?     And why would we have added 14 countries to NATO since the Soviet Union collapsed     We fuked over the Russians after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then shoved NATO straight up their a$$ too.    They emerged from the Yeltsin years and embraced a nationalist dictator.     Our response to that is to toy with putting NATO right on their border and in countries with significant Russian speaking populations?   And to co-opt those local govts to western influence - which is done by turning a fire hose of money onto them that the Russians have no chance of competing with.    And then we act dumfounded when that country/dictator reacts by invading these border countries?     We've been pushing our luck for years and pushing the borders of NATO east, we chose to gamble and then act surprised when someone goes all-in?   And why the hell are we treaty binding (or trying to treaty bind) ourselves to defend countries in an area that's been involved in almost non stop conflict for thousands of years?    What the fuk are we doing?  

None of this justifies the Russians actions, but a little more humility in the face of this crisis, which we and NATO had a hand in causing, is definitely warranted.   Especially since a big reason why we are in this spot is because we were trying to "be tough" with Russia.    You know, just like the chicken-hawks are advocating now.   

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8 hours ago, IGotWorms said:

You’re cheering on authoritarian fascism. Do you not realize that, or are you just okay with it?

 We live with a mainstream media that lies constantly. One where words morph in meaning such that they don't know what a "woman" or a "racist" are. A media that sling around and self flagellates to words like "toxic masculinity," "Nazi", "patriarchy," "far right," and others... I don't take them seriously.

So, yes. I have heard the smear marketing from her opposition. Yes, it's also true that "authoritarian fascist" is a word that should give me pause that that I don't want to be associated with. But words have meaning. When the boy who cries "wolf" cries "wolf" for the 13503459469547th time,  I tune out. Real Americans fought authorities fascism while useless leftoids sh*t their pants, hid under their beds with 4F deferments, and took over the Institute of Foreign Research at Columbia University where they could indoctrinate the children of those real Americans who were dying on the beaches of Normandy.

Seems to me that Maurine Le Pen is looking out for the French people, French culture, and French ideals against AmeriKan-style wokeness and the corporatist globalist EU overlords who couldn't care less about the French people, their customs, their traditions, or their heritage. I hope the French people look at what she says, what Macon says, and make up my on mind. I imagine the MSM there is in spin overdrive to keep the rich parasites in charge. Macron, in fairness, has made some decent policy shifts in the later half of his presidency, but he's still a member of, and servant to, the monied interest of the globalists. Before entering politics, his career was in international banking.

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32 minutes ago, Masshole said:

You are so one dimensional.     NATO was originated and purposed to oppose the Soviet Communists.      After the collapse of the Soviet system, what was NATO's purpose?     And why would we have added 14 countries to NATO since the Soviet Union collapsed     We fuked over the Russians after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then shoved NATO straight up their a$$ too.    They emerged from the Yeltsin years and embraced a nationalist dictator.     Our response to that is to toy with putting NATO right on their border and in countries with significant Russian speaking populations?   And to co-opt those local govts to western influence - which is done by turning a fire hose of money onto them that the Russians have no chance of competing with.    And then we act dumfounded when that country/dictator reacts by invading these border countries?     We've been pushing our luck for years and pushing the borders of NATO east, we chose to gamble and then act surprised when someone goes all-in?   And why the hell are we treaty binding (or trying to treaty bind) ourselves to defend countries in an area that's been involved in almost non stop conflict for thousands of years?    What the fuk are we doing?  

None of this justifies the Russians actions, but a little more humility in the face of this crisis, which we and NATO had a hand in causing, is definitely warranted.   Especially since a big reason why we are in this spot is because we were trying to "be tough" with Russia.    You know, just like the chicken-hawks are advocating now.   

Blame America First.

Used to be the province of liberals, now the right-wingers have taken it and run with it—straight to treasonous territory :o 

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29 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

 We live with a mainstream media that lies constantly. One where words morph in meaning such that they don't know what a "woman" or a "racist" are. A media that sling around and self flagellates to words like "toxic masculinity," "Nazi", "patriarchy," "far right," and others... I don't take them seriously.

So, yes. I have heard the smear marketing from her opposition. Yes, it's also true that "authoritarian fascist" is a word that should give me pause that that I don't want to be associated with. But words have meaning. When the boy who cries "wolf" cries "wolf" for the 13503459469547th time,  I tune out. Real Americans fought authorities fascism while useless leftoids sh*t their pants, hid under their beds with 4F deferments, and took over the Institute of Foreign Research at Columbia University where they could indoctrinate the children of those real Americans who were dying on the beaches of Normandy.

Seems to me that Maurine Le Pen is looking out for the French people, French culture, and French ideals against AmeriKan-style wokeness and the corporatist globalist EU overlords who couldn't care less about the French people, their customs, their traditions, or their heritage. I hope the French people look at what she says, what Macon says, and make up my on mind. I imagine the MSM there is in spin overdrive to keep the rich parasites in charge. Macron, in fairness, has made some decent policy shifts in the later half of his presidency, but he's still a member of, and servant to, the monied interest of the globalists. Before entering politics, his career was in international banking.

She’s a right wing fascist. I understand what you’re saying and the left takes some of that stuff too far, you’re right about that. Doesn’t mean you just toss it all out the window and support fascists like Le Pen and Orban.

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2 hours ago, vomit said:

Remember when they said that the bio labs were creating covid to unleash in Russia?  That was a lie

I don’t remember that. Was that on D anon or something? But I’m sure it’s not true.  But they were cooking up something in them, and it wasn’t pimple cream. 

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7 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

She’s a right wing fascist. I understand what you’re saying and the left takes some of that stuff too far, you’re right about that. Doesn’t mean you just toss it all out the window and support fascists like Le Pen and Orban.

Orban is such a fascist he keeps getting re- elected. 

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8 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

She’s a right wing fascist. I understand what you’re saying and the left takes some of that stuff too far, you’re right about that. Doesn’t mean you just toss it all out the window and support fascists like Le Pen and Orban.

What makes her a fascist? Please, lay it out for us.  

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20 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

She’s a right wing fascist. I understand what you’re saying and the left takes some of that stuff too far, you’re right about that. Doesn’t mean you just toss it all out the window and support fascists like Le Pen and Orban.

No she's not.  You're a mainstream media gulping guppy.

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41 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

She’s a right wing fascist. I understand what you’re saying and the left takes some of that stuff too far, you’re right about that. Doesn’t mean you just toss it all out the window and support fascists like Le Pen and Orban.

Orban has had three full terms, this new one will be his forth.

In that time, his death count is zero and the number of countries he's invaded has been zero. The man hasn't even set up a single gas chamber yet! What a fascist slacker. This guy is as dangerous as the Gingerbread Man.

Yeah, let's take the scary word that applies to Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco,  apply it to politicians we don't like in Orban and Le Pen, and then tell people to get upset at Orban and Le Pen. Let's pretend we haven't seen that exact thing done thousands of times in various forms already to every politician the corporate globalist overlords doesn't like and doesn't march in lock step to the western oligarch uniparty's tune.

What?!?!? They won't bend the knee and collect their money and positions of influence from the powers that be? They appeal to voters' interests instead? They speak for the concerns of ordinary people and appeal to them for votes? It's because they are far right fascists!

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2 minutes ago, Gepetto said:

No she's not.  You're a mainstream media gulping guppy.

She wants to increase cost of living payments for seniors. Right out of the Mussolini playbook. 

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8 hours ago, IGotWorms said:

Blame America First.

Used to be the province of liberals, now the right-wingers have taken it and run with it—straight to treasonous territory :o 

Can you point to one thing, anything I said that could possibly considered "treasonous"?    That's a pretty bold slander to be throwing out there, you must have a clear reason.   

Now that "racist" has become so used, abused, and played out - the left needs a new smear to use against those who don't toe the line.   

The "Bush lied" crowd now is the "send a trillion dollars worth of weapons and throw any Russians out of the symphony" crowd.    If you live long enough - you'll see it all.

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8 hours ago, Voltaire said:

Orban has had three full terms, this new one will be his forth.

In that time, his death count is zero and the number of countries he's invaded has been zero. The man hasn't even set up a single gas chamber yet! What a fascist slacker. This guy is as dangerous as the Gingerbread Man.

Yeah, let's take the scary word that applies to Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco,  apply it to politicians we don't like in Orban and Le Pen, and then tell people to get upset at Orban and Le Pen. Let's pretend we haven't seen that exact thing done thousands of times in various forms already to every politician the corporate globalist overlords doesn't like and doesn't march in lock step to the western oligarch uniparty's tune.

What?!?!? They won't bend the knee and collect their money and positions of influence from the powers that be? They appeal to voters' interests instead? They speak for the concerns of ordinary people and appeal to them for votes? It's because they are far right fascists!

"Right wing facism", is a complete failure.  Left wing fascism however is a highly successful killing machine. 

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11 hours ago, Masshole said:

You are so one dimensional.     NATO was originated and purposed to oppose the Soviet Communists.      After the collapse of the Soviet system, what was NATO's purpose?     And why would we have added 14 countries to NATO since the Soviet Union collapsed     We fuked over the Russians after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then shoved NATO straight up their a$$ too.    They emerged from the Yeltsin years and embraced a nationalist dictator.     Our response to that is to toy with putting NATO right on their border and in countries with significant Russian speaking populations?   And to co-opt those local govts to western influence - which is done by turning a fire hose of money onto them that the Russians have no chance of competing with.    And then we act dumfounded when that country/dictator reacts by invading these border countries?     We've been pushing our luck for years and pushing the borders of NATO east, we chose to gamble and then act surprised when someone goes all-in?   And why the hell are we treaty binding (or trying to treaty bind) ourselves to defend countries in an area that's been involved in almost non stop conflict for thousands of years?    What the fuk are we doing?  

None of this justifies the Russians actions, but a little more humility in the face of this crisis, which we and NATO had a hand in causing, is definitely warranted.   Especially since a big reason why we are in this spot is because we were trying to "be tough" with Russia.    You know, just like the chicken-hawks are advocating now.   

You're correct that none of this justifies Russia actions, however I disagree that the US or NATO share any blame for this crisis.  The sole blame for causing this is Russia, and to say otherwise is really sh!tty.  You think you're enlightened, but you're just lost.

What you fail to acknowledge is this Putin and Russia's attempt to take back control of the former soviet union for power and money, that's all it is.  Is this other BS about how Russia feels threatened is their propaganda.  No reasonable and educated person actually believes any of it.

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10 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I don’t remember that. Was that on D anon or something? But I’m sure it’s not true.  But they were cooking up something in them, and it wasn’t pimple cream. 

It was on this board, Cdub I believe.

So tell me, what was the purpose of the biolabs and does it justify the russian invastion?

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2 hours ago, Masshole said:

Can you point to one thing, anything I said that could possibly considered "treasonous"?    That's a pretty bold slander to be throwing out there, you must have a clear reason.   

Now that "racist" has become so used, abused, and played out - the left needs a new smear to use against those who don't toe the line.   

The "Bush lied" crowd now is the "send a trillion dollars worth of weapons and throw any Russians out of the symphony" crowd.    If you live long enough - you'll see it all.

Maybe that the US is at fault for the invasion.

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