If Jesus was a Jew

[MTSkiBum 1,594]

Lent is ~40~ days long even though there is 46 days between Ash Wednesday and Easter.

 

@jerryskids At ~40~ years old I managed to ski double black's all day long the last time I went skiing. I am in better shape right now than at any point in the last 10 years. I managed to keep my Lenten promise.

 

Double whammy, suck that @posty

[Hardcore troubadour 12,631]

If Worms was a Jew he’d be a successful lawyer. 

[IGotWorms 3,310]

FTR, I have nothing against religion. I am personally agnostic, was raised somewhat Episcopalian but not overly seriously, and I’m just not sure what to believe. But I do believe in something, call it “spirituality” or whatever, and I certainly don’t presume to say that anyone’s beliefs are false, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc

[IGotWorms 3,310]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

If Worms was a Jew he’d be a successful lawyer. 

Hey that’s a pretty good one!

[Voltaire 4,557]

52 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

FTR, I have nothing against religion. I am personally agnostic, was raised somewhat Episcopalian but not overly seriously, and I’m just not sure what to believe. But I do believe in something, call it “spirituality” or whatever, and I certainly don’t presume to say that anyone’s beliefs are false, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc

I was raised Catholic but am an atheist now. I figured out early on, as a kid in desperate need of help, that prayer never works. Now, since I both learned the lesson that if God does exist, he doesn't listen to me, and don't need anything anymore anyway, I don't pray. Also, there's a string of logical fallacies that simply never made any sense. Saves me some money.

But I still respect the teachings on how to live your life and how to treat others and so I follow those principles. I still conduct myself like it's real, even though I'm relatively certain that it isn't. I also miss the community aspects of the church. I'm thinking that I may have messed up in not raising my kids as Catholic, to get those cultural values instilled in them and know the biblical references if they come across them in a Sunday school sort of setting, although that would have been really hard to do in China. Especially with a lack of conviction and motivation on my part. I'd rather they have that moral anchor. At least they're turning out alright anyways with the underlying Confucian family values of the culture here.

[Baker Boy 1,485]

2 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

I was raised Catholic but am an atheist now. I figured out early on, as a kid in desperate need of help, that prayer never works. Now, since I both learned the lesson that if God does exist, he doesn't listen to me, and don't need anything anymore anyway, I don't pray. Also, there's a string of logical fallacies that don't make any sense. 

God doesn’t do things on your time frame and it seems everything worked out for you.

[Voltaire 4,557]

10 minutes ago, Baker Boy said:

God doesn’t do things on your time frame and it seems everything worked out for you.

Yes things worked out for me because I did that myself. God did zippo, nothing. When I was a kid I could have used some help.... prayed a lot for it... none ever came and I happened to notice God's 0-fer-5000 prayer requests fulfilled. God never lifted a finger. As I got older, I realized the reason he didn't help me is because he's not real. 

 

[TBayXXXVII 2,116]

On 4/16/2022 at 12:31 PM, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

God isn’t real and all religions are made to control the masses

I agree with this.  I will add this though... I have no problem with others believing in it.  Have at it.  I think people who try to force their religion on others are douche bags as are people who mock the religious for believing.

[Baker Boy 1,485]

7 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

Yes things worked out for me because I did that myself. When I was a kid I could have used some help.... prayed a lot for it... none ever came and I happened to notice God's 0-fer-5000 prayer requests fulfilled. As I got older, I realized the reason he didn't help me is because he's not real.

 

Like I said, prayers are not answered on your time frame.

[Voltaire 4,557]

13 minutes ago, Baker Boy said:

Like I said, prayers are not answered on your time frame.

Or nor at all. The expiration date for answering them ended when I joined the Army. It would have been nice to not have been a miserable, suicidal teenager but those are the breaks.

Since then, I've lived my life knowing no help is coming and I'll have to do it all myself. I don't need help so I don't ask for any. I still do remember how when I needed help, I didn't get any, so it would be pointless to ask now anyway. God put me on ignore for six years, seventeen actually, but six bad one. I've put him on ignore ever since.

[TBayXXXVII 2,116]

11 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

Yes things worked out for me because I did that myself. God did zippo, nothing. When I was a kid I could have used some help.... prayed a lot for it... none ever came and I happened to notice God's 0-fer-5000 prayer requests fulfilled. God never lifted a finger. As I got older, I realized the reason he didn't help me is because he's not real. 

 

I'm not religious at all, but I don't for one second know for a fact that I'm right.  I believe that there's a chance I'm wrong. 

Because of that, I can openly accept both sides.  How do you know for a fact that what you did for yourself wasn't instilled in you by God?  How do you know for a fact that God didn't place those obstacles in front of you in order for you to become the person you have become?  I think you assume it was all you and none him because you didn't get instant gratification.

To note, I don't know for a fact that your wrong.  You very well may be right.  But I don't know either side as fact.  You're an atheist because you believe your side to be a fact, but you can't prove any of it outside of saying "I did it".  You can't prove that God had no influence in what you did.

 

3 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

Or nor at all. The expiration date for answering them ended when I joined the Army. It would have been nice to not have been a miserable, suicidal teenager but those are the breaks.

Since then, I've lived my life knowing no help is coming and I'll have to do it all myself. I don't need help so I don't ask for any. I still do remember how when I needed help, I didn't get any. 

How do you know for a fact that it wasn't God who led you to the Army?

 

[Voltaire 4,557]

25 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

I'm not religious at all, but I don't for one second know for a fact that I'm right.  I believe that there's a chance I'm wrong. 

Because of that, I can openly accept both sides.  How do you know for a fact that what you did for yourself wasn't instilled in you by God?  How do you know for a fact that God didn't place those obstacles in front of you in order for you to become the person you have become?  I think you assume it was all you and none him because you didn't get instant gratification.

To note, I don't know for a fact that your wrong.  You very well may be right.  But I don't know either side as fact.  You're an atheist because you believe your side to be a fact, but you can't prove any of it outside of saying "I did it".  You can't prove that God had no influence in what you did.

 

How do you know for a fact that it wasn't God who led you to the Army?

 

i'm not an atheist because I believe my side is fact. You can't disprove a fallacy. I can't disprove God just like I can't disprove Zeus or Odin or Vishnu or Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster or that ghosts aren't hiding in my bathroom. It's the people that make a claim that have to come up with evidence, not the people who don't. If God showed himself to you, fine, but he had the chance to show himself to me and didn't take it. The only time I finally got peace of mind on the matter was when I gave up and stopped looking. My own lived experience of reaching out to God and getting no answer would indicate that if God does exist, he doesn't care about me.  I guess technically, I'm an agnostic since I don't actually know, but I go with "atheist" because I've done enough searching, I've seen no evidence, and so I'm not curious nor wondering nor interested in bothering to look anymore.

[TimmySmith 2,782]

37 minutes ago, Baker Boy said:

Like I said, prayers are not answered on your time frame.

God answers all prayers.  But we have such a preconceived notion of what we think the answer should look like, we generally miss it.  We are very simple creatures. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,116]

12 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

i'm not an atheist because I believe my side is fact. You can't disprove a fallacy. I can't disprove God just like I can't disprove Zeus or Odin or Vishnu or Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster or that ghosts aren't hiding in my bathroom. It's the people that make a claim that have to come up with evidence, not the people who don't. If God showed himself to you, fine, but he had the chance to show himself to me and didn't take it. The only time I finally got peace of mind on the matter was when I stopped looking. My own lived experience of reaching out to God and getting no answer would indicate that if God does exist, he doesn't care about me.  I guess technically, I'm an agnostic since I don't actually know, but I go with "atheist" because I've done enough searching, I've seen no evidence, and so I'm not curious nor wondering nor interested in bothering to look anymore.

Religion is a "belief".  You choose to atheist (agnostic), because you don't "believe".  That doesn't mean you're right.  That's all I'm saying.  Your definition of God isn't the definition of the God that Christian's believe in.  What you want, is called a Sugar Daddy.  They're not the same thing.

Personally, I am an atheist.  But that's because I don't believe in the existence of any God in the hereafter.  It's not because I didn't get the answer that I wanted, when i wanted them, as a kid.  Being truthful, the answers that I wanted at the time, were rather foolish and ignorant.  If I were to be totally honest, that would lead me more to believe that God does exist, than that he doesn't.  But, I just don't believe he exists just because I think religion was just an man-made fairy tale to keep people in line... not just anger because I didn't get my way.

[TBayXXXVII 2,116]

1 minute ago, TimmySmith said:

God answers all prayers.  But we have such a preconceived notion of what we think the answer should look like, we generally miss it.  We are very simple creatures. 

This is the belief yes.  It's why when I hear people say that they're atheist, the reason is often like @Voltaire.  He didn't get the answer that he wanted when he wanted it.  That seems rather ignorant of what God is said to be.

[IGotWorms 3,310]

13 minutes ago, TimmySmith said:

God answers all prayers.  But we have such a preconceived notion of what we think the answer should look like, we generally miss it.  We are very simple creatures. 

Well, I understand that viewpoint and it’s your right to have it. But couldn’t this explain everything and anything? And therefore it explains nothing. That’s the problem with the “all part of god’s plan” argument. Not that you have to prove your religion to anyone though

[TBayXXXVII 2,116]

1 minute ago, IGotWorms said:

Well, I understand that viewpoint and it’s your right to have it. But couldn’t this explain everything and anything? And therefore it explains nothing. That’s the problem with the “all part of god’s plan” argument. Not that you have to prove your religion to anyone though

This comes back to the same thing that @Baker Boy (I think... may have been someone else), has noted a million times.  I believe it's "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible."... or something like that.  If people want to believe it, let them.  There's no need to mock them.  It also doesn't mean they're wrong.  After we die, we may find out that they were right all along.

[Voltaire 4,557]

2 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

This is the belief yes.  It's why when I hear people say that they're atheist, the reason is often like @Voltaire.  He didn't get the answer that he wanted when he wanted it.  That seems rather ignorant of what God is said to be.

I'm an atheist because it gives me peace of mind (as a side benefit it also saves me time and money). I use to struggle with disbelief, now I don't. And I'm in a happier mental state for it. I think clearer. At first, I was rather bitter. Then, for a long time I didn't care. Now I'm thinking it was good that I got the moral compass and the family values from the church at a young age and I;ve lived my life with those values intact. I also miss the community aspect too. But the spiritual aspect and the divinity and the mysticism and the praying and concerns over the interpretation of the text are all of no interest.

[TimmySmith 2,782]

2 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

Well, I understand that viewpoint and it’s your right to have it. But couldn’t this explain everything and anything? And therefore it explains nothing. That’s the problem with the “all part of god’s plan” argument. Not that you have to prove your religion to anyone though

It could explain anything and everything. That is where faith comes in.  Once you pray, and you know your prayer is answered, you search for that answer and you will find it. Sometimes it is right in front of you, others it takes reflection. Eventually it becomes clear.  Does for me anyway. 

 

[jerryskids 5,192]

2 hours ago, MTSkiBum said:

Lent is ~40~ days long even though there is 46 days between Ash Wednesday and Easter.

 

@jerryskids At ~40~ years old I managed to ski double black's all day long the last time I went skiing. I am in better shape right now than at any point in the last 10 years. I managed to keep my Lenten promise.

 

Double whammy, suck that @posty

Awesome, good for you!   

[wiffleball 4,639]

If Jesus was a chew, do you think he'd be one of them swedish fishes? Because you know, Jesus Fish. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,579]

4 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

I agree with this.  I will add this though... I have no problem with others believing in it.  Have at it.  I think people who try to force their religion on others are douche bags as are people who mock the religious for believing.

Oh I agree I should add the country would be better if more people had faith 

[Voltaire 4,557]

Opinion | How to Pray to a God You Don’t Believe In - The New York Times (archive.ph) 

Reading this article reminds me of my points made in this thread. This Jewish guy and his son are my kind of people. Not that I'm Jewish, I'm lapsed Catholic, but if I were, I'd be this guy. It's just that I see eye to eye with him in appreciation of the morality lessons, the sense of community, and the grounding aspects of religion. 

The rest though doesn't do it for me. I don't pray because I don't need anything and  prayers never worked when I DID help, I don't feel spiritual, the supernatural is of no interest, and I don't need promises of heaven or threats of hell to behave properly.

Still, I wouldn't mind hanging out with good people.

[jerryskids 5,192]

9 hours ago, Voltaire said:

Opinion | How to Pray to a God You Don’t Believe In - The New York Times (archive.ph) 

Reading this article reminds me of my points made in this thread. This Jewish guy and his son are my kind of people. Not that I'm Jewish, I'm lapsed Catholic, but if I were, I'd be this guy. It's just that I see eye to eye with him in appreciation of the morality lessons, the sense of community, and the grounding aspects of religion. 

The rest though doesn't do it for me. I don't pray because I don't need anything and  prayers never worked when I DID help, I don't feel spiritual, the supernatural is of no interest, and I don't need promises of heaven or threats of hell to behave properly.

Still, I wouldn't mind hanging out with good people.

Thanks for posting, that is a great op-ed and very much in line with my thinking.  I was raised Catholic and my 3 kids have all gone through the appropriate Catholic rites through Confirmation, but I'm fairly lapsed at this point.  We tried again this Easter season to get back into it, but our church is so... uninspiring.  I'd say "negative" but that seems too strong.  Just no positivity or energy.  

I don't view prayer as asking God for stuff; rather I view it more in the vein of Eastern religions; meditation and creating positive energy for yourself and those around you.

There is a lot more I can say on this subject but I'll leave it at this for now. 

[Voltaire 4,557]

2 hours ago, jerryskids said:

Thanks for posting, that is a great op-ed and very much in line with my thinking.  I was raised Catholic and my 3 kids have all gone through the appropriate Catholic rites through Confirmation, but I'm fairly lapsed at this point.  We tried again this Easter season to get back into it, but our church is so... uninspiring.  I'd say "negative" but that seems too strong.  Just no positivity or energy.  

I don't view prayer as asking God for stuff; rather I view it more in the vein of Eastern religions; meditation and creating positive energy for yourself and those around you.

There is a lot more I can say on this subject but I'll leave it at this for now. 

I know that Thomas Edison loved fishing, even the days when he didn't catch anything. He just liked the time set aside to be alone outdoors in the fresh air with his thoughts and unwinding. If there was a tug on his line, well, that low level of distraction was about as much as he was willing to tolerate. Maybe I should appreciate the alone down time like that more.

Sadly, I never got into fishing or praying the rosary or other things that calm you down, get away from your problems, and allow you to clear your mind. Instead of allowing myself to fill with awe and inspiration, I always find myself filling with, "this is boring, how much longer do we have to be here?" I wonder if things'd be different now that I'm older.

[BudBro 117]

On 4/16/2022 at 9:44 AM, IGotWorms said:

… why didn’t the Christians just become Jews?

Why the need to found a whole new religion?

He’s your boy and he was a Jew! So why wasn’t Judaism good enough?

 

On 4/18/2022 at 4:08 AM, Hardcore troubadour said:

Just want to point out that Worms wasn’t attempting to have a conversation here.

and the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch; before they were called among themselves, the disciples, brethren, believers, the church, &c. and by others the Nazarenes, and Galilaeans: whether this name of Christians, which comes from Christ, and signifies anointed ones, was given by their enemies, or their friends, by others, or themselves, is not certain, though it is most likely the latter; and it may be they hit upon this general appellation, ...upon the union of the Jews and Gentiles in one Gospel church state, and so happily buried the distinction of Jews and Gentiles, or those of the circumcision that believed, and those of the uncircumcision.  Luke is particular in relating the affairs of this church, he being himself a native of this place. John of Antioch (o) gives an account of this matter in these words;
"at the beginning of the reign of Claudius Caesar, ten years after Jesus Christ, our Lord and God, was ascended up into heaven, Evodus, the first after the Apostle Peter, being chosen bishop of Antioch, the great city of Syria, became a patriarch, and under him they were called Christians: for this same bishop, Evodus, conferring with them, put this name upon them, whereas before the Christians were called Nazarenes and Galilaeans.''
Epiphanius says (p), the disciples were called Jessaeans before they took the name of Christians first at Antioch: they were called Jessaeans, says he, I think, because of Jesse, seeing David was of Jesse, and Mary of David: and so the Scripture was fulfilled, in which the Lord says to David, of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne, &c.--Or else, they were called Jessaeans from the name of Jesus our Lord; and refers the reader to a book of Philo's, written by him, concerning the Jessaeans, whom Epiphanitius takes to be Christians; but those that Philo (q) treats of were not Jessaeans, but Essaeans, and seem to be the same with the Essenes, who were not Christians, but a sect of the Jews. Nor do we ever find that the Christians were called by this name. ~ John Gill