DeSantis and his stupid laws

[RLLD 3,455]

6 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

No, they shouldn't.   Having each parent have that much control and sign off on what Timmy and Mary are learning in public school is a bonkers idea.  I can't even imagine that headache for teachers and administrators as parents dissect every line of a syllabus.  What if :gasp: something is taught but on in the syllabus and got your pre-approval?  

Are you guys that afraid your kid gets exposed to a POV or idea that you don't agree with?  

 

Whooaaaa….

I am assiduously opposed to your premise here.

That MY kid, I have a say in what they learn….

When they leave public school they are still mine, and my responsibility….not the moderately educated kid in there teaching them

[jonmx 1,593]

9 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

No, they shouldn't.   Having each parent have that much control and sign off on what Timmy and Mary are learning in public school is a bonkers idea.  I can't even imagine that headache for teachers and administrators as parents dissect every line of a syllabus.  What if :gasp: something is taught but on in the syllabus and got your pre-approval?  

Are you guys that afraid your kid gets exposed to a POV or idea that you don't agree with?  

 

You see parents are the taxpayers. Teachers are the servants.  This modern leftist tips our government on its head and makes the government lords over the people.  That is tyranny and has lead to hundreds of millions of people being slaughtered at the hands of their masters every time it is practiced.   The modern day leftist view is evil.

[jonmx 1,593]

4 minutes ago, RLLD said:

Whooaaaa….

I am assiduously opposed to your premise here.

That MY kid, I have a say in what they learn….

When they leave public school they are still mine, and my responsibility….not the moderately educated kid in there teaching them

Nope...not your kid.  Your kid belongs to the state.  That is where we are headed with this theory.  

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

28 minutes ago, RLLD said:

So long as they are optional then who cares what they offer?

I mean honestly, if a parent wants to expose their child to elements of learning then so be it.

Personally I would not want my kid to be in any class where people are being impugned based on their skin color for actions they never conducted and such. 
 

But if that is what someone wants in their kids head, have at it…..of course that kid would likely end up in jail or asking my kid if they want fries with their order 

It is optional. No one says it can’t be taught.  It’s just a matter of when and where. 

[RLLD 3,455]

8 minutes ago, jonmx said:

Nope...not your kid.  Your kid belongs to the state.  That is where we are headed with this theory.  

Agree. But the state is wrong, and luckily my kids are out of public school now….or I would be in trouble 

[The Real timschochet 2,946]

There are some fundamental disagreements between many of us on this topic. One of the biggest is the issue of lies. Several of you have stated that anyone who takes this course will be fed lies about our history and culture. I do not believe this is the case and I would like those of you who have made this claim to be more specific: what, exactly, are the lies that will be told? And what in your opinion is the truth that SHOULD be told? Please try to avoid generalities and vagueness. 

[avoiding injuries 1,220]

24 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

No, they shouldn't.   Having each parent have that much control and sign off on what Timmy and Mary are learning in public school is a bonkers idea.  I can't even imagine that headache for teachers and administrators as parents dissect every line of a syllabus.  What if :gasp: something is taught but on in the syllabus and got your pre-approval?  

Are you guys that afraid your kid gets exposed to a POV or idea that you don't agree with?  

 

I can’t imagine why we didn’t need to have conversations like this before recently. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

23 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

No, they shouldn't.   Having each parent have that much control and sign off on what Timmy and Mary are learning in public school is a bonkers idea.  I can't even imagine that headache for teachers and administrators as parents dissect every line of a syllabus.  What if :gasp: something is taught but on in the syllabus and got your pre-approval?  

Are you guys that afraid your kid gets exposed to a POV or idea that you don't agree with?  

 

Are you? How about a class on just white History? It would be optional. 

[The Real timschochet 2,946]

1 minute ago, avoiding injuries said:

I can’t imagine why we didn’t need to have conversations like this before recently. 

It’s mainly because with the fact that soon the white population in this country will become a minority, many of you have gotten paranoid. 
 

That’s at the root of the matter. It’s behind the anti-woke movement, behind the MAGA movement and Trump’s election in 2016, behind modern day white conservatism, xenophobia, and nativism. It’s all based on the fear of minority status. 

[The Real timschochet 2,946]

2 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Are you? How about a class on just white History? It would be optional. 

That’s already happening. Nearly every  history course in primary school through high school is focused on white history. And none of it is optional. 

[BuckSwope 654]

21 minutes ago, RLLD said:

Whooaaaa….

I am assiduously opposed to your premise here.

That MY kid, I have a say in what they learn….

When they leave public school they are still mine, and my responsibility….not the moderately educated kid in there teaching them

Here is more what I am saying:

I am all for full disclosure of the syllabus, what is in the class, etc.    That should be available before your kid decides to take a class (again, I am more talking about HS because this is what we are currently talking with with relation to the AP class).    Sure, express your concerns, maybe have your kid take a differnet class, etc..   IMO that is how reasonable adults handle this issue.  

What I am 100% against is banning classes from existing in the first place, removing books, all the other crap we see going on and gaining popularity.   I am also not for what I took AI's postion to be of micromanaging what the teacher teaches to my kid.    Yes, you should have say in your kids education - no, you shouldn't be making those decisions for others which is what banning and removing things does.  

[BuckSwope 654]

9 minutes ago, avoiding injuries said:

I can’t imagine why we didn’t need to have conversations like this before recently. 

My cynical response is that parents largely weren't as in the know about their kids classes until COVID hit and they were stuck at home with them as they learned virtually.    IMO that is just as much on the parents as it is the schools.   I don't think these things and ideas just magically appeared in classes in the last 2 years.  

[craftsman 1,045]

Just now, BuckSwope said:

My cynical response is that parents largely weren't as in the know about their kids classes until COVID hit and they were stuck at home with them as they learned virtually.    IMO that is just as much on the parents as it is the schools.   I don't think these things and ideas just magically appeared in classes in the last 2 years.  

That's a lie. I knew what classes my daughter was taking in grade school and high school. I sent her to private schools and was very much a part of knowing what they were teaching. 

I agree that lazy liberal parents who don't give a shlt what their is being taught probably never knew what their kids were being taught.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

12 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

That’s already happening. Nearly every  history course in primary school through high school is focused on white history. And none of it is optional. 

I learned about American history and world history. Blacks included.  So you’re wrong. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

10 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Here is more what I am saying:

I am all for full disclosure of the syllabus, what is in the class, etc.    That should be available before your kid decides to take a class (again, I am more talking about HS because this is what we are currently talking with with relation to the AP class).    Sure, express your concerns, maybe have your kid take a differnet class, etc..   IMO that is how reasonable adults handle this issue.  

What I am 100% against is banning classes from existing in the first place, removing books, all the other crap we see going on and gaining popularity.   I am also not for what I took AI's postion to be of micromanaging what the teacher teaches to my kid.    Yes, you should have say in your kids education - no, you shouldn't be making those decisions for others which is what banning and removing things does.  

What books that have been removed are you against? It’s kind of important to know. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

And to be equal, we’re going to need a lot more optional history classes. Gay history, Asian History, Latino/ Hispanic history, Native American/ Pacific Islander history. Right? 

[BuckSwope 654]

Just now, craftsman said:

That's a lie. I knew what classes my daughter was taking in grade school and high school. I sent her to private schools and was very much a part of knowing what they were teaching. 

I agree that lazy liberal parents who don't give a shlt what their is being taught probably never knew what their kids were being taught.

  Even lazy parenting is exclusive to the left.  You really are a piece of work.   

I'd love to hear your explanation of why all of a sudden it's huge deal in the last 2 years.   You guys just ignore my links to people like Rufo and the crusade against CRT.   It's easy to link that and Christian groups to anti-lgbtq stuff, but then you'd have to admit that your media is just as biased and agenda driven as the left's is.   That's a big reason.   I can't tell you how many times in the last 2-3 years I hear or read something like "can you believe that X is being taught in the schools?".   My thoughts always went to wondering why they didn't know what was in their kids classes before that.  

It's a perfect storm of:  Examples of kooky teachers and schools pushing some b.s. (this 100% happens) + people like Rufo and media like Fox amplifying these examples for $, clicks, and agenda.   Parents see this all over their SM/media then they start scouring the syllabus for questionable stuff or start hovering by their computers during online classes for remote learning and storm the school board meetings.    

[BuckSwope 654]

6 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

What books that have been removed are you against? It’s kind of important to know. 

I have been against any example I've seen of a book removed from a HS or public library.   If you are that interested, you can look at the examples of the most banned and challenged books each year.   

[craftsman 1,045]

12 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Here is more what I am saying:

I am all for full disclosure of the syllabus, what is in the class, etc.    That should be available before your kid decides to take a class (again, I am more talking about HS because this is what we are currently talking with with relation to the AP class).    Sure, express your concerns, maybe have your kid take a differnet class, etc..   IMO that is how reasonable adults handle this issue.  

What I am 100% against is banning classes from existing in the first place, removing books, all the other crap we see going on and gaining popularity.   I am also not for what I took AI's postion to be of micromanaging what the teacher teaches to my kid.    Yes, you should have say in your kids education - no, you shouldn't be making those decisions for others which is what banning and removing things does.  

Yeah. We should have 2A classes that teach kids how to shoot guns which includes them, if they pass, put onto a path of gun ownership upon graduation. 

They should also have classes about how black people are refusing to take advantage of their equality in this country in modern day America.

They should also have classes on how to avoid black neighborhoods at all costs because of the violence associated in those communities is real.

They should also have classes on how conservative capitalism is the only proper successful form of government for a country of our size.

 

[craftsman 1,045]

3 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

  Even lazy parenting is exclusive to the left.  You really are a piece of work.   

I'd love to hear your explanation of why all of a sudden it's huge deal in the last 2 years.   You guys just ignore my links to people like Rufo and the crusade against CRT.   It's easy to link that and Christian groups to anti-lgbtq stuff, but then you'd have to admit that your media is just as biased and agenda driven as the left's is.   That's a big reason.   I can't tell you how many times in the last 2-3 years I hear or read something like "can you believe that X is being taught in the schools?".   My thoughts always went to wondering why they didn't know what was in their kids classes before that.  

It's a perfect storm of:  Examples of kooky teachers and schools pushing some b.s. (this 100% happens) + people like Rufo and media like Fox amplifying these examples for $, clicks, and agenda.   Parents see this all over their SM/media then they start scouring the syllabus for questionable stuff or start hovering by their computers during online classes for remote learning and storm the school board meetings.    

It's what we should be teaching our kids in school AP classes.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

11 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

I have been against any example I've seen of a book removed from a HS or public library.   If you are that interested, you can look at the examples of the most banned and challenged books each year.   

I was asking what ones you were opposed to of the ones that were. For some reason that’s a difficult question for you to answer. 

[RLLD 3,455]

44 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

It’s mainly because with the fact that soon the white population in this country will become a minority, many of you have gotten paranoid. 
 

That’s at the root of the matter. It’s behind the anti-woke movement, behind the MAGA movement and Trump’s election in 2016, behind modern day white conservatism, xenophobia, and nativism. It’s all based on the fear of minority status. 

That is an odd supposition, and it suggests a rather nasty broad brush across white people….

I might encourage you to reconsider such application of your thoughts as it implies a subconscious racist mentality 

[BuckSwope 654]

9 minutes ago, craftsman said:

Yeah. We should have 2A classes that teach kids how to shoot guns which includes them, if they pass, put onto a path of gun ownership upon graduation. 

They should also have classes about how black people are refusing to take advantage of their equality in this country in modern day America.

They should also have classes on how to avoid black neighborhoods at all costs because of the violence associated in those communities is real.

They should also have classes on how conservative capitalism is the only proper successful form of government for a country of our size.

 

Why would they need a whole class about 1/2 these ideas?  

Also, the answer for me is not to have 2-3 different classes that only teach one side of issues.  That's not what I'd want.   I'd be fine with well rounded AA class that included articles or discussions about what things the black community can do to improve their situation as well.  That's what we should strive for - not just having only one side of things, especially for classes like history, social studies, current events.    What we are lacking is empathy and healthy debate, and that is not solved by the ideas in your post.  

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

1 minute ago, BuckSwope said:

Why would they need a whole class about 1/2 these ideas?  

Also, the answer for me is not to have 2-3 different classes that only teach one side of issues.  That's not what I'd want.   I'd be fine with well rounded AA class that included articles or discussions about what things the black community can do to improve their situation as well.  That's what we should strive for - not just having only one side of things, especially for classes like history, social studies, current events.    What we are lacking is empathy and healthy debate, and that is not solved by the ideas in your post.  

Yeah, that would go over well, whitey. 

[BuckSwope 654]

4 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I was asking what ones you were opposed to of the ones that were. For some reason that’s a difficult question for you to answer. 

I answered.  I am opposed to the idea of banning and removing books, so ALL OF THEM.  I don't care if it's Harry Potter, To Kill a Mockingbird, or Gender Queer.    Again, I specifically said HS and public libraries.  

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

Just now, BuckSwope said:

I answered.  I am opposed to the idea of banning and removing books, so ALL OF THEM.  I don't care if it's Harry Potter, To Kill a Mockingbird, or Gender Queer.    Again, I specifically said HS and public libraries.  

Have you read gender queer? 

[dogcows 1,029]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

• Long after you are gone, your children and grandchildren will be woke deep in their souls. 

Post of the year…

[craftsman 1,045]

6 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

I answered.  I am opposed to the idea of banning and removing books, so ALL OF THEM.  I don't care if it's Harry Potter, To Kill a Mockingbird, or Gender Queer.    Again, I specifically said HS and public libraries.  

As long as Gender Queer is rated R and is labeled as fictional comedy. 

And why do I need to have my kid talk how to help black communities when they should be teaching that black communities won't help themselves so don't bother trying to help them?

[BuckSwope 654]

2 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Yeah, that would go over well, whitey. 

No, dumb ideas and statements like "avoid black neighborhoods at all costs" wouldn't and shouldn't go over well.   

A reasonable class and teacher could present similar discussion about why and how black neighborhoods are the way they are that includes multiple POVs and reasons.   

[jonmx 1,593]

50 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

There are some fundamental disagreements between many of us on this topic. One of the biggest is the issue of lies. Several of you have stated that anyone who takes this course will be fed lies about our history and culture. I do not believe this is the case and I would like those of you who have made this claim to be more specific: what, exactly, are the lies that will be told? And what in your opinion is the truth that SHOULD be told? Please try to avoid generalities and vagueness. 

 

You can start with the whole 1619 premise big lie that the Revolutionary War was fought primarily to maintain slavery.  

[RLLD 3,455]

40 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Here is more what I am saying:

I am all for full disclosure of the syllabus, what is in the class, etc.    That should be available before your kid decides to take a class (again, I am more talking about HS because this is what we are currently talking with with relation to the AP class).    Sure, express your concerns, maybe have your kid take a differnet class, etc..   IMO that is how reasonable adults handle this issue.  

What I am 100% against is banning classes from existing in the first place, removing books, all the other crap we see going on and gaining popularity.   I am also not for what I took AI's postion to be of micromanaging what the teacher teaches to my kid.    Yes, you should have say in your kids education - no, you shouldn't be making those decisions for others which is what banning and removing things does.  

Thank you for that clarification. I agree to a large extent.

I think much has been made of CRT and what it appears to deliver.

Any curriculum that teaches hate, even under the auspices of “this is your history and you need to know” is going to find some opposition. If the information could be presented in a way that leans toward unity and understanding vs guilt or the pointing of fingers I think it would get more support

[craftsman 1,045]

2 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Post of the year…

Why, because your like fictional?

[BuckSwope 654]

4 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Have you read gender queer? 

No, have you?  

I don't need to read every single book to be against removing them from libraries.    I have read many of the books on these challenged/banned lists though.  

[craftsman 1,045]

1 minute ago, BuckSwope said:

No, dumb ideas and statements like "avoid black neighborhoods at all costs" wouldn't and shouldn't go over well.   

A reasonable class and teacher could present similar discussion about why and how black neighborhoods are the way they are that includes multiple POVs and reasons.   

It's a smart idea. A pair of black cops told me the same thing when my friend's car broke down in an all black neighborhood once. The cops stopped and said, what the hell are you two doing here? You need to get a tow truck and get out immediately. We'll drive around this area until you are gone.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

1 minute ago, BuckSwope said:

No, have you?  

I don't need to read every single book to be against removing them from libraries.    I have read many of the books on these challenged/banned lists though.  

That’s brilliant.  Don’t judge a book by its cover. 

[BuckSwope 654]

3 minutes ago, craftsman said:

As long as Gender Queer is rated R and is labeled as fictional comedy. 

And why do I need to have my kid talk how to help black communities when they should be teaching that black communities won't help themselves so don't bother trying to help them?

Are you for a rating system for all books?  

 

[BuckSwope 654]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

That’s brilliant.  Don’t judge a book by its cover. 

Well, I already know you are fine banning things you have not bothered reading or watching or can't put in context.     We've been down this road before - you seem to be for censorship in these situations, and I am strongly against that.  

[craftsman 1,045]

1 minute ago, BuckSwope said:

Are you for a rating system for all books?  

 

I for banning lies about there being more than 2 sexes, lies about blacks not having the same opportunities (or even more) than whites. 

I'm against teaching lies. All of which you are for. 

[craftsman 1,045]

4 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Well, I already know you are fine banning things you have not bothered reading or watching or can't put in context.     We've been down this road before - you seem to be for censorship in these situations, and I am strongly against that.  

You are for the censorship of the truth. 

Whenever you teach a lie, that is censoring a truth.

[BuckSwope 654]

7 minutes ago, RLLD said:

Thank you for that clarification. I agree to a large extent.

I think much has been made of CRT and what it appears to deliver.

Any curriculum that teaches hate, even under the auspices of “this is your history and you need to know” is going to find some opposition. If the information could be presented in a way that leans toward unity and understanding vs guilt or the pointing of fingers I think it would get more support

IMO anybody who is being honest and rational about this has to wrestle with examples IRL of the bolded happening AND with quotes from people like Rufo who clear as day admit their purpose is to label any dumb ass idea as CRT.    Both things are going on, and I've seen examples of both.