DeSantis and his stupid laws

[BuckSwope 654]

9 hours ago, jerryskids said:

Throat cancer -- specifically, squamous cell carcinoma of the hypopharynx.  Laryngectomy 09/20, radiation rest of year, metastasis to lungs anyway, chemo and immunotherapy, been on immuno-only for about 15 months.  I should be dead or dying, but the immuno seems to be working well for me, knock on wood.  I'll never be given a clean bill of health, with current technology anyway; I'll always be one bad scan away from the beginning of the end.

But hey, I feel good, I was financially able to retire, I love my wife and kids and they love me, what more can you want? 

I've chronicled my journey here, if you've got a day or two to kill:  

 

Wow, thank for sharing that - I will for sure read more about your story.   Sounds like quite a battle, and I wish you all the luck going forward.  

[BuckSwope 654]

9 hours ago, jerryskids said:

Or, Florida doesn't trust that every teacher from the ultra-left educational complex will be like Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society and encourage dissenting views from the woke borg ideology.  That same ideology which you repeatedly tell us is a fait accompli.  

I think the point trying to be made is that when states go to these measures, they are also saying they don't trust ANY teacher to deliver a balanced lesson.   It removes the option, which is what I am against no matter what side of the aisle it come from.  

That is one of the core things that I take issue with in a lot of these debates - the framing of teachers as a whole in such a negative light.   Be it in these discussions about race, or the LGTBQ issues, the tone from way too many people posting is that teachers are Leftie groomers trying to indoctrinate our kids to hating their skin color.  I know I've never met a teacher that strikes me as anything near that.   Bad teachers?  Sure.  Apathetic teachers?  Definitely.     I guess either WI chases those teachers away, they are just so adept at keeping their intentions a secret, or more likely they are just as a whole people trying their best to teach our kids and do their jobs.   

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

51 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

I think the point trying to be made is that when states go to these measures, they are also saying they don't trust ANY teacher to deliver a balanced lesson.   It removes the option, which is what I am against no matter what side of the aisle it come from.  

That is one of the core things that I take issue with in a lot of these debates - the framing of teachers as a whole in such a negative light.   Be it in these discussions about race, or the LGTBQ issues, the tone from way too many people posting is that teachers are Leftie groomers trying to indoctrinate our kids to hating their skin color.  I know I've never met a teacher that strikes me as anything near that.   Bad teachers?  Sure.  Apathetic teachers?  Definitely.     I guess either WI chases those teachers away, they are just so adept at keeping their intentions a secret, or more likely they are just as a whole people trying their best to teach our kids and do their jobs.   

No.   The the outline and required reading for the course  was posted. It’s garbage. Completely biased, untruthful propaganda. Perhaps you should have read it? 

[The Real timschochet 2,943]

5 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

No.   The the outline and required reading for the course  was posted. It’s garbage. Completely biased, untruthful propaganda. Perhaps you should have read it? 

I have challenged several people to explain what’s untruthful. I challenge you as well. So far, nobody has been able to offer a good example. 

[craftsman 1,045]

1 hour ago, TimHauck said:

18?  African American history is inappropriate for people under 18?  Lol you’re insane

Why do you keep asking me the same questions?

And I get it. You liberals want to put all your sick lies into the heads of children. That has already been established.

[The Real timschochet 2,943]

4 minutes ago, craftsman said:

Why do you keep asking me the same questions?

And I get it. You liberals want to put all your sick lies into the heads of children. That has already been established.

What lies??

[Dizkneelande 839]

14 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I have challenged several people to explain what’s untruthful. I challenge you as well. So far, nobody has been able to offer a good example. 

You’ve been challenged to show what’s factual about the 1619 project. Even the edited version. Why the dodge? Regardless, most of the syllabus was approved. Florida did not ban AP African Studies. It denied the program from teaching an updated version of the program that included CRT. The program is still allowed to be taught as it is now.

Here’s an excerpt from Topic 4.29 - Leslie Kay Jones “everyday, black people produce an unquantifiable amount of content for the same social media corporations that reproduce the white supremacist super structures that oppress us.”

Whats truthful about that? Nothing. You just suck. 

[jerryskids 5,206]

1 hour ago, BuckSwope said:

I think the point trying to be made is that when states go to these measures, they are also saying they don't trust ANY teacher to deliver a balanced lesson.   It removes the option, which is what I am against no matter what side of the aisle it come from.  

That is one of the core things that I take issue with in a lot of these debates - the framing of teachers as a whole in such a negative light.   Be it in these discussions about race, or the LGTBQ issues, the tone from way too many people posting is that teachers are Leftie groomers trying to indoctrinate our kids to hating their skin color.  I know I've never met a teacher that strikes me as anything near that.   Bad teachers?  Sure.  Apathetic teachers?  Definitely.     I guess either WI chases those teachers away, they are just so adept at keeping their intentions a secret, or more likely they are just as a whole people trying their best to teach our kids and do their jobs.   

I generally don't like legislating from the extremes; take for instance the example we often hear of a 10 year old girl raped by her dad needing an abortion, therefore everyone should get a free abortion at any point in the pregnancy. But I digress.

That being said, what is the extreme in this case? I propose that the vast majority of teachers for this class will be graduates/educated in African American studies -- the university complex increasingly spits out such degrees, similar to DEI, and we need to employ these people somewhere, right?  Anyway, coming from the far-left educational complex, with a far-left degree, I further propose that these people will not in general be the pinnacles of objective exploration on these topics, at least without some structure around them.  Perhaps Wisconsin gets all of the good teachers, maybe they like cheese and cold weather?  But the rest of us would like a check and balance.

I guess your position is similar to Tim's, so in the end we'll just agree to disagree.  I would welcome a class which truly explores all angles of this topic.  I don't believe that the teachers of such a class, and the general woke environment of our current education system, encourages this.  I believe that the actions of Florida will help to make the class more like what we both desire.

[TimHauck 1,801]

1 hour ago, craftsman said:

Why do you keep asking me the same questions?

And I get it. You liberals want to put all your sick lies into the heads of children. That has already been established.

Just trying to make sure I understand your idiocy in apparently claiming that African American history should not be taught until college.

[Reality 2,710]

More info here:

 

[BuckSwope 654]

26 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

I generally don't like legislating from the extremes; take for instance the example we often hear of a 10 year old girl raped by her dad needing an abortion, therefore everyone should get a free abortion at any point in the pregnancy. But I digress.

That being said, what is the extreme in this case? I propose that the vast majority of teachers for this class will be graduates/educated in African American studies -- the university complex increasingly spits out such degrees, similar to DEI, and we need to employ these people somewhere, right?  Anyway, coming from the far-left educational complex, with a far-left degree, I further propose that these people will not in general be the pinnacles of objective exploration on these topics, at least without some structure around them.  Perhaps Wisconsin gets all of the good teachers, maybe they like cheese and cold weather?  But the rest of us would like a check and balance.

I guess your position is similar to Tim's, so in the end we'll just agree to disagree.  I would welcome a class which truly explores all angles of this topic.  I don't believe that the teachers of such a class, and the general woke environment of our current education system, encourages this.  I believe that the actions of Florida will help to make the class more like what we both desire.

The bolded is probably the crux of our disagreement as well.   We just have different opinions on the type of education as a whole we still have in the US.  

That's OK, and like you said we can agree to disagree.  I just like to be clear where I believe the difference in opinion is.   It's not that I am OK with lopsided teaching of things, I just believe big picture of things, teachers are still capable of teaching our kids in a way both of us could agree on.   That's why I disagree that blocking a class like this is a good move, not that I have so bizzare lefty agenda like others around here try to hard to frame my positions as.  

[craftsman 1,045]

13 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Just trying to make sure I understand your idiocy in apparently claiming that African American history should not be taught until college.

It's been proven that what liberals want to teach kids about bkack people is false. And you have proven through your posts that you don't have the intelligence to refute that.

[Dizkneelande 839]

11 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Just trying to make sure I understand your idiocy in apparently claiming that African American history should not be taught until college.

That’s not what is happening here but we know the left has to obfuscate everything. They just got rid of the white man is evil, the systems are racist, blacks built America and whitey needs to pay reparations parts. Teaching reverse racism, perpetual victimhood and hate is not worthy of any course, never mind and ap class. 

They should go even further and actually investigate these schools for using public resources to promote racism and racial divisions. Seems like a 14th amendment violation. 

[BuckSwope 654]

1 hour ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

No.   The the outline and required reading for the course  was posted. It’s garbage. Completely biased, untruthful propaganda. Perhaps you should have read it? 

Like I posted with jerry - a big difference of opinion is our trust in teachers as a whole.    

The reading materials are a piece of the puzzle.  A teacher could teach a history class where Mein Kampf was assigned as reading for the class.   Does that automatically mean that they are pro-Hitler and going to teach the class from that POV? Or could MAYBE, just maybe they be able to discuss the negatives of the ideas that came out of that book.    I say blocking a class that assigns that, just because it does is stupid.   Similar concept here - you post as though you are under the impression that any teacher in charge of this class is incapable of doing anything but brainwash kids to some far left agenda.    

I just find it weird that people who rightfully complain when campuses shut down lectures and classes because of their perceived message and political lean seem perfectly comfortable shutting down the discussion when it's something they don't agree with.  

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

21 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Like I posted with jerry - a big difference of opinion is our trust in teachers as a whole.    

The reading materials are a piece of the puzzle.  A teacher could teach a history class where Mein Kampf was assigned as reading for the class.   Does that automatically mean that they are pro-Hitler and going to teach the class from that POV? Or could MAYBE, just maybe they be able to discuss the negatives of the ideas that came out of that book.    I say blocking a class that assigns that, just because it does is stupid.   Similar concept here - you post as though you are under the impression that any teacher in charge of this class is incapable of doing anything but brainwash kids to some far left agenda.    

I just find it weird that people who rightfully complain when campuses shut down lectures and classes because of their perceived message and political lean seem perfectly comfortable shutting down the discussion when it's something they don't agree with.  

What does the overthrow of capitalism have to do with AA studies? 

[cmh6476 756]

 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

37 minutes ago, Reality said:

More info here:

 

Anyone still arguing that this isn’t leftists trying to indoctrinate after reading this is a Marxist themselves. 

[TimHauck 1,801]

35 minutes ago, Dizkneelande said:

That’s not what is happening here but we know the left has to obfuscate everything. They just got rid of the white man is evil, the systems are racist, blacks built America and whitey needs to pay reparations parts. Teaching reverse racism, perpetual victimhood and hate is not worthy of any course, never mind and ap class. 

They should go even further and actually investigate these schools for using public resources to promote racism and racial divisions. Seems like a 14th amendment violation. 

If “here” is this specific instance of this proposed Florida AP class, correct.  But crapsman is clearly saying African American history should not be taught to high schoolers.

[The Real timschochet 2,943]

1 hour ago, Dizkneelande said:

You’ve been challenged to show what’s factual about the 1619 project. Even the edited version. Why the dodge? Regardless, most of the syllabus was approved. Florida did not ban AP African Studies. It denied the program from teaching an updated version of the program that included CRT. The program is still allowed to be taught as it is now.

Here’s an excerpt from Topic 4.29 - Leslie Kay Jones “everyday, black people produce an unquantifiable amount of content for the same social media corporations that reproduce the white supremacist super structures that oppress us.”

Whats truthful about that? Nothing. You just suck. 

I have a very strong feeling that the quote is either taken way out of context or, more likely, Leslie Kay Jones is one of the writers who will be brought up in the course and Florida discovered an extreme example of her writing. Or both. 
 

White supremacy is, IMO, a worthy topic of discussion in an AP class about black studies.

[BuckSwope 654]

16 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

What does the overthrow of capitalism have to do with AA studies? 

I don't know, I am not a teacher of that class nor designed the curriculum.   

Again, that's not the point - the reaction should be to ask those questions, talk to the teacher/school board, things like that - ask them what the overthrow of capitalism has to do with AA studies.   Hell, maybe take that part out of the course- not shut it down without discussion or giving the teacher the benefit of the doubt.   JMO, but it's better to have those discussions than to assume their intentions or how the kids taking the class with react to the information.   

Do you people really believe that your kid would take that class and become "brainwashed" by it's information?  

 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 2,521]

18 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Anyone still arguing that this isn’t leftists trying to indoctrinate after reading this is a Marxist themselves. 

I wonder what the reaction would be if we replaced the word "Black" with the word "White" in those curriculums?

Tip for you Lefties: If after replacing the words you find it reprehensible then you know it shouldn't belong anywhere in any curriculum.  That should be your "go-to" test when discussing any matters of race:  If it sounds terrible with the word "White" instead of "Black" then you know you have a problem.

[The Real timschochet 2,943]

7 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Anyone still arguing that this isn’t leftists trying to indoctrinate after reading this is a Marxist themselves. 

I guess I am a Marxist then- if so, I’m the first capitalist Marxist ever! 
 

That article is flawed because it begins with a false premise. The purpose of the course is not to indoctrinate but to expose. It’s very telling that the writer acknowledges that his concern is with the last 25% of the course which focuses on current issues. This is in keeping with the general conservative argument that institutionalized racism ended in our society in 1964 and that in current times there ARE no racial issues. 
 

The article names content and writers in the course, and yes some of it is very radical. But this is what many people are arguing today! Are we to pretend that these radical thoughts don’t exist, just shut them out? That’s what Florida wants. it shouldn’t be what most thoughtful people want.

Personally I disagree with most of the radicalism and yes, some of it appalls me. But there is also some of it that offers room for thought, and there is, IMO, a small amount of it that makes sense to me. But it’s not false, it’s not lies, as so many people have claimed here without any evidence. It’s a different way of looking at things. A way that our best students shouldn’t be prevented from being exposed to. 

[Fnord 1,141]

10 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Do you people really believe that your kid would take that class and become "brainwashed" by it's information?  

This is what gets me. A large group of people (group A) consumes a specific type of media, complains that the oppositional group (B) is brainwashed by the media that they (group B) consume, and contends that they themselves (group A) are not subject to the same, as their choice of media is the objective truth. Righteous indignation reigns among group A, who is obviously being discriminated against at every level due to the inability of group B to think for themselves.  

Group A's solution to this? Remove anything that might require freedom of choice or independent thought, as it's obvious that group B is too dumb to realize what's going on, and Group A doesn't want to bother to think about anything that doesn't fall in lockstep with them and the media that they consume.

Same people b!tching about cancel culture and infringement upon their almighty rights also want to ban books! And don't even realize how ironically stupid that line of thinking is. SMDH.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

8 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

I don't know, I am not a teacher of that class nor designed the curriculum.   

Again, that's not the point - the reaction should be to ask those questions, talk to the teacher/school board, things like that - ask them what the overthrow of capitalism has to do with AA studies.   Hell, maybe take that part out of the course- not shut it down without discussion or giving the teacher the benefit of the doubt.   JMO, but it's better to have those discussions than to assume their intentions or how the kids taking the class with react to the information.   

Do you people really believe that your kid would take that class and become "brainwashed" by it's information?  

 

If you read that article Desantis told them to rework the curriculum and resubmit it. I doubt he wants them to take out the history of slavery and Jim Crow etc. 

[The Real timschochet 2,943]

1 minute ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

I wonder what the reaction would be if we replaced the word "Black" with the word "White" in those curriculums?

Tip for you Lefties: If after replacing the words you find it reprehensible then you know it shouldn't belong anywhere in any curriculum.  That should be your "go-to" test when discussing any matters of race:  If it sounds terrible with the word "White" instead of "Black" then you know you have a problem.

This question gets asked a LOT in discussions about race in our society, and it’s always irrelevant and always absurd. Black people are a minority in our culture who have suffered a long history of terrible mistreatment and suffering. You can’t ever substitute a white person when discussing matters of race. 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 2,521]

10 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

I don't know, I am not a teacher of that class nor designed the curriculum.   

Again, that's not the point - the reaction should be to ask those questions, talk to the teacher/school board, things like that - ask them what the overthrow of capitalism has to do with AA studies.   Hell, maybe take that part out of the course- not shut it down without discussion or giving the teacher the benefit of the doubt.   JMO, but it's better to have those discussions than to assume their intentions or how the kids taking the class with react to the information.   

Do you people really believe that your kid would take that class and become "brainwashed" by it's information?  

 

Normally I find you pretty fair on some things, but this feigned ignorance you're displaying here really bothers me.  You don't know?  Really?

You see, it's this minimization of the problem and pretending that it's not an issue.  It clearly is.  None of this belongs in a curriculum.  How is that not so obvious to you?

[EternalShinyAndChrome 2,521]

3 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

This question gets asked a LOT in discussions about race in our society, and it’s always irrelevant and always absurd. Black people are a minority in our culture who have suffered a long history of terrible mistreatment and suffering. You can’t ever substitute a white person when discussing matters of race. 

It doesn't f'n matter if they are a minority or not.  You don't get to allow racism for one group because of their history.  The point is to remove racism completely, not excuse it.

Discussing history of said group is not the problem but replacing the words is EXACTLY the litmus test we should have when talking about race.

"Black Power!" and "White Power!" BOTH sound reprehensible, no?  But in your case, you're saying "Black Power" is perfectly okay.  It's not.

[The Real timschochet 2,943]

2 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

If you read that article Desantis told them to rework the curriculum and resubmit it. I doubt he wants them to take out the history of slavery and Jim Crow etc. 

They will never be able to resubmit it in a manner he would accept. 
If you want to discern DeSantis’ true motive, just read Craftsman in this thread- at least he’s honest about it. Craftsman doesn’t want African-American studies taught to high school students. He doesn’t find it to be an appropriate subject matter. This, I believe, is how DeSantis feels as well. 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 2,521]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

They will never be able to resubmit it in a manner he would accept. 
If you want to discern DeSantis’ true motive, just read Craftsman in this thread- at least he’s honest about it. Craftsman doesn’t want African-American studies taught to high school students. He doesn’t find it to be an appropriate subject matter. This, I believe, is how DeSantis feels as well. 

You make a lot of assumptions that are incorrect.

Also "They will never be able to resubmit it in a manner he would accept." sounds pretty applicable to today's Democrats.

[The Real timschochet 2,943]

2 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

It doesn't f'n matter if they are a minority or not.  You don't get to allow racism for one group because of their history.  The point is to remove racism completely, not excuse it.

Discussing history of said group is not the problem but replacing the words is EXACTLY the litmus test we should have when talking about race.

It will take decades, perhaps centuries, to remove racism completely. Certainly it’s not possible in our lifetimes. What we need to do is acknowledge it when it exists and look for means to compensate for it. 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 2,521]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

It will take decades, perhaps centuries, to remove racism completely. Certainly it’s not possible in our lifetimes. What we need to do is acknowledge it when it exists and look for means to compensate for it. 

We've been acknowledging and compensating it for over at least 60 years already - to the point where we now basically REVERSE discriminate.

WTF?  I thought you were a student of history?  Were you just born yesterday?

[BuckSwope 654]

Just now, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

You make a lot of assumptions that are incorrect.

Also "They will never be able to resubmit it in a manner he would accept." sounds pretty applicable to today's Democrats.

You just said above that "none of this belongs in a curriculum"   

Do you think that is a post that displays a willingness to discuss and resubmit tweaks to the proposed curriculum? 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

Just now, BuckSwope said:

You just said above that "none of this belongs in a curriculum"   

Do you think that is a post that displays a willingness to discuss and resubmit tweaks to the proposed curriculum? 

Then that’s on them. If their goal is to teach AA history then they should resubmit. We can argue about it if they do. But your assumptions mean nothing without seeing the resubmitted course. 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 2,521]

5 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

You just said above that "none of this belongs in a curriculum"   

Do you think that is a post that displays a willingness to discuss and resubmit tweaks to the proposed curriculum? 

When I say "none of this", I'm not talking about the actual American History we were taught (slavery, jim crowe, etc...).  I'm talking about the Marxist propaganda being tied to it under the guise of "history" that is quite clear from the link.

If you resubmit the same garbage but worded differently you will continue to get rejected.

I mean, the Democrats in Congress never accept anything from the Republicans but you never complain about that.  I suspect you're coming from a "as long as my side is in power, it's okay" angle.

[The Real timschochet 2,943]

Just now, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

We've been acknowledging and compensating it for over 100 years already - to the point where we now basically REVERSE discriminate.

WTF?  I thought you were a student of history?  Were you just born yesterday?

You’re expressing a very specific point of view. One that I happen to strongly disagree with. I don’t believe that we have compensated nearly enough for racism, and I don’t believe that “reverse discrimination” is a real issue of concern in our society. 
 

Nonetheless your point of view is legitimate in that it is shared by a lot of people. If there was a high school honors course devoted to exploring your POV on this subject, I have no doubt that some radical leftists would try their best to shut down or ban such a course. But I would be as strongly opposed to that as I am to this ban. 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 2,521]

Just now, The Real timschochet said:

You’re expressing a very specific point of view. One that I happen to strongly disagree with. I don’t believe that we have compensated nearly enough for racism, and I don’t believe that “reverse discrimination” is a real issue of concern in our society. 
 

Nonetheless your point of view is legitimate in that it is shared by a lot of people. If there was a high school honors course devoted to exploring your POV on this subject, I have no doubt that some radical leftists would try their best to shut down or ban such a course. But I would be as strongly opposed to that as I am to this ban. 

Fair enough. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

15 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

They will never be able to resubmit it in a manner he would accept. 
If you want to discern DeSantis’ true motive, just read Craftsman in this thread- at least he’s honest about it. Craftsman doesn’t want African-American studies taught to high school students. He doesn’t find it to be an appropriate subject matter. This, I believe, is how DeSantis feels as well. 

Craftsman = Desantis now.  Ok. And you think you’re actually making a point. 

[Dizkneelande 839]

4 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Craftsman = Desantis now.  Ok. And you think you’re actually making a point. 

All these disingenuous leftists are walking contradictions. We quickly went from “CRT is not taught in public k-12” to, “so what it’s a good thing and righties are racist for not tolerating their reverse racism.”

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

39 minutes ago, Dizkneelande said:

All these disingenuous leftists are walking contradictions. We quickly went from “CRT is not taught in public k-12” to, “so what it’s a good thing and righties are racist for not tolerating their reverse racism.”

Right.  We reject BLM, a Marxist, violent, corrupt organization, so we are racists, but then what are the many black people that also reject BLM? 

[jerryskids 5,206]

59 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

They will never be able to resubmit it in a manner he would accept. 
If you want to discern DeSantis’ true motive, just read Craftsman in this thread- at least he’s honest about it. Craftsman doesn’t want African-American studies taught to high school students. He doesn’t find it to be an appropriate subject matter. This, I believe, is how DeSantis feels as well. 

You make very convenient presumptions.  You presume the above, yet you feel it is unreasonable to believe that the contribution from CRT anti-racism zealots to the curriculum might center around CRT and anti-racism.

Tim World is a very convenient place.