dogcows 1,030 Posted July 5, 2023 4 hours ago, WhiteWonder said: imagine people choosing to borrow money, knowing they may not be able to afford to pay it back or that it may be tight, choosing to do so anyway and then being told "oh, hey, don't worry about it"... it's a great way to teach fiscal responsibility. handouts do nothing but perpetuate poor decision making. No one forces a person to take out a student loan. You have the choice to go somewhere less expensive or maybe not go at all. If you choose to borrow money, you should expect to pay it all back under the terms of your loan. This is the real world. Is it sometimes a shame? absolutely. That's why the focus should be on the real issue.... crooked universities and the insane rising tuition. Loan forgiveness is/was nothing more than an attempted vote grab. Solves no issues. Simply designed to make a certain group of people happy You didn’t refute a single thing I said. You just decided to go on a rant about “poor decision making” and “fiscal responsibility” as if you are some financial guru. A Silicon Valley engineer said it better than me when it comes to people criticizing degrees: Quote To many people, school is about preparing learners for "21st century jobs." Yet, there is no way that we can know what those jobs are. 10 years ago, I could not have described my job. It didn't exist. It is the heights of hubris and arrogance to think that we know what the jobs of 15 years from now will be. . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dogcows 1,030 Posted July 5, 2023 4 hours ago, WhiteWonder said: tightening lending policies directly addresses the problem. giving handouts (loan forgiveness) makes some people happy but fixes nothing. In fact, it only helps show people there are no consequences for their actions. Sure, banks were lending to anyone and everyone but the individual homeowners were still the ones putting pen to paper, knowing full well they couldn't really afford those loans. So giving billions in free money to banks, but not mortgage holders, was a good thing? Tell that to the years-long recession. And you still didn’t acknowledge that handouts DID happen … as did tightening of lending policies. The former was needed in the short term, the latter in the long term. Stop acting like they are mutually exclusive. All I was saying was that the former would have been more effective if that money benefitted mortgage borrowers, and not just lenders. Who knows more about finance? Professional bankers or people buying their first home? You seem to like to act superior to others, saying they are idiots for taking bad loans. It’s a smart-ass statement, and not an actual argument of what would or wouldn’t work in the economy. We gave billions in free money to people whose JOB it is to know better. But you go on a rant against average people trying to get by and buy a house. Not sure what your mental malfunction is, but people from BOTH parties saw through that thinking, at least for a while during the Occupy Wall Street movement. I guess you forgot those lessons and it’s back to the stupid “handouts” tropes from the 1980s. You’re a rube if you support handouts to billionaires but not to your neighbors. A complete and utter useful idiot for the oligarchs running the country. They love idiots like you. The starving serf who kisses the king’s arse when he comes to visit their dilapidated village, thinking he’s superior to his neighbors while in no better shape than they are. If this is typical of Republican thinking, it’s no wonder the economy is always in free fall by he end of every GOP President’s stay at the White House. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dizkneelande 1,093 Posted July 5, 2023 3 hours ago, dogcows said: So giving billions in free money to banks, but not mortgage holders, was a good thing? Tell that to the years-long recession. And you still didn’t acknowledge that handouts DID happen … as did tightening of lending policies. The former was needed in the short term, the latter in the long term. Stop acting like they are mutually exclusive. All I was saying was that the former would have been more effective if that money benefitted mortgage borrowers, and not just lenders. Who knows more about finance? Professional bankers or people buying their first home? You seem to like to act superior to others, saying they are idiots for taking bad loans. It’s a smart-ass statement, and not an actual argument of what would or wouldn’t work in the economy. We gave billions in free money to people whose JOB it is to know better. But you go on a rant against average people trying to get by and buy a house. Not sure what your mental malfunction is, but people from BOTH parties saw through that thinking, at least for a while during the Occupy Wall Street movement. I guess you forgot those lessons and it’s back to the stupid “handouts” tropes from the 1980s. You’re a rube if you support handouts to billionaires but not to your neighbors. A complete and utter useful idiot for the oligarchs running the country. They love idiots like you. The starving serf who kisses the king’s arse when he comes to visit their dilapidated village, thinking he’s superior to his neighbors while in no better shape than they are. If this is typical of Republican thinking, it’s no wonder the economy is always in free fall by he end of every GOP President’s stay at the White House. Who bailed out the banks in 2008 sh!thead? 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dogcows 1,030 Posted July 5, 2023 50 minutes ago, Dizkneelande said: Who bailed out the banks in 2008 sh!thead? George W Bush, shithead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GutterBoy 2,898 Posted July 5, 2023 1 minute ago, dogcows said: George W Bush Dizkneelande might be the dumbest person here. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RLLD 4,180 Posted July 5, 2023 The move is more or less a perfect fit for Democrats....nothing is ever anyones fault, we are all (except white people of course) victims of a system that works only to harm. This lie of course gets tons of traction with those of lesser productivity. Anyone who embraces risk, the entreprenurial spirit or simpy works hard and has something to show for it is evil. If you can get behind this, you are already on your way to being a liberal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryskids 6,662 Posted July 5, 2023 5 hours ago, dogcows said: So giving billions in free money to banks, but not mortgage holders, was a good thing? Tell that to the years-long recession. And you still didn’t acknowledge that handouts DID happen … as did tightening of lending policies. The former was needed in the short term, the latter in the long term. Stop acting like they are mutually exclusive. All I was saying was that the former would have been more effective if that money benefitted mortgage borrowers, and not just lenders. Who knows more about finance? Professional bankers or people buying their first home? You seem to like to act superior to others, saying they are idiots for taking bad loans. It’s a smart-ass statement, and not an actual argument of what would or wouldn’t work in the economy. We gave billions in free money to people whose JOB it is to know better. But you go on a rant against average people trying to get by and buy a house. Not sure what your mental malfunction is, but people from BOTH parties saw through that thinking, at least for a while during the Occupy Wall Street movement. I guess you forgot those lessons and it’s back to the stupid “handouts” tropes from the 1980s. You’re a rube if you support handouts to billionaires but not to your neighbors. A complete and utter useful idiot for the oligarchs running the country. They love idiots like you. The starving serf who kisses the king’s arse when he comes to visit their dilapidated village, thinking he’s superior to his neighbors while in no better shape than they are. If this is typical of Republican thinking, it’s no wonder the economy is always in free fall by he end of every GOP President’s stay at the White House. This seems like a false dichotomy -- I don't recall people here singing the praises of corporate bailouts back when they happened. I recall criticism of government-backed programs which basically absolved lenders of financial responsibility for lending to unqualified people. If you have links to the contrary I'm open to reading them. Regardless, the issue at hand isn't whether or not the forgiveness was a good thing to do. The issue is if the POTUS can arbitrarily give a half trillion dollars to a group of people "just 'cause". The answer is, thankfully, regardless of the party in power: no. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dizkneelande 1,093 Posted July 5, 2023 1 hour ago, GutterBoy said: Dizkneelande might be the dumbest person here. Who was president in 2009 when we gave banks another bailout sh!thead? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dizkneelande 1,093 Posted July 5, 2023 1 hour ago, dogcows said: George W Bush, shithead Yeah he sucked we agree although you probably likes him because he was a neocon. Why did Obama give the banks billions? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dizkneelande 1,093 Posted July 5, 2023 1 hour ago, GutterBoy said: Dizkneelande might be the dumbest person here. Everyone here laughs at you. Why did you blame republicans when it was Obama who could have stopped the bailouts? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dizkneelande 1,093 Posted July 5, 2023 1 hour ago, GutterBoy said: Dizkneelande might be the dumbest person here. What party was responsible for the recent bank bailouts? See this is why you suck. You just want to blame Republicans for everything and the Dems get no fault when most of us hate both parties. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardcore troubadour 15,137 Posted July 5, 2023 Senator Obama came off the campaign trail with McCain to vote yes for TARP. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GutterBoy 2,898 Posted July 5, 2023 People like Dizkneelande are what's wrong with America. Everything is always the other guys fault. OBAMA BAILED OUT THE BANKS! DEMOCRATS SUCK! Actually bro it was George Bush that signed TARP, $700B bailout. YEAH BUT BUSH WAS A NEOCON. And? WELL OBAMA COULD HAVE STOPPED IT BUT HE DIDN'T! SEE, DEMOCRATS!!!! BIDEN CAUSED INFLATION WITH HIS $2T IN SPENDING!!! Well Trump spent $4T the years prior WELL HE HAD TO CAUSE COVID Covid was still around when Biden took office WELL THE $4T WAS EXACTLY WHAT WAS NEEDED, BUT THE EXTRA $2T WAS TOO MUCH, CAUSED INFLATION! DEMOCRATS! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GutterBoy 2,898 Posted July 5, 2023 7 minutes ago, Dizkneelande said: What party was responsible for the recent bank bailouts? See this is why you suck. You just want to blame Republicans for everything and the Dems get no fault when most of us hate both parties. Pot. Kettle. Also you're completely wrong, I blame everyone and think they both suck. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dizkneelande 1,093 Posted July 5, 2023 15 minutes ago, GutterBoy said: Pot. Kettle. Also you're completely wrong, I blame everyone and think they both suck. you’re a Democrat rumpswab own it sh!tlib 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dizkneelande 1,093 Posted July 5, 2023 1 hour ago, GutterBoy said: People like Dizkneelande are what's wrong with America. Everything is always the other guys fault. OBAMA BAILED OUT THE BANKS! DEMOCRATS SUCK! Actually bro it was George Bush that signed TARP, $700B bailout. YEAH BUT BUSH WAS A NEOCON. And? WELL OBAMA COULD HAVE STOPPED IT BUT HE DIDN'T! SEE, DEMOCRATS!!!! BIDEN CAUSED INFLATION WITH HIS $2T IN SPENDING!!! Well Trump spent $4T the years prior WELL HE HAD TO CAUSE COVID Covid was still around when Biden took office WELL THE $4T WAS EXACTLY WHAT WAS NEEDED, BUT THE EXTRA $2T WAS TOO MUCH, CAUSED INFLATION! DEMOCRATS! Show where I’ve defended Republicans? You can’t. We can point to 30,000 posts of you defending the Dems. You’re a loser. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WhiteWonder 2,708 Posted July 5, 2023 7 hours ago, dogcows said: You didn’t refute a single thing I said. You just decided to go on a rant about “poor decision making” and “fiscal responsibility” as if you are some financial guru. A Silicon Valley engineer said it better than me when it comes to people criticizing degrees: . I never criticized degrees. I don't disagree at all with what this silicon valley engineer says. I've heard this sentiment many many times and I agree completely. Nothing in my posts is critical of college degrees. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WhiteWonder 2,708 Posted July 5, 2023 7 hours ago, dogcows said: So giving billions in free money to banks, but not mortgage holders, was a good thing? Tell that to the years-long recession. And you still didn’t acknowledge that handouts DID happen … as did tightening of lending policies. The former was needed in the short term, the latter in the long term. Stop acting like they are mutually exclusive. All I was saying was that the former would have been more effective if that money benefitted mortgage borrowers, and not just lenders. Who knows more about finance? Professional bankers or people buying their first home? You seem to like to act superior to others, saying they are idiots for taking bad loans. It’s a smart-ass statement, and not an actual argument of what would or wouldn’t work in the economy. We gave billions in free money to people whose JOB it is to know better. But you go on a rant against average people trying to get by and buy a house. Not sure what your mental malfunction is, but people from BOTH parties saw through that thinking, at least for a while during the Occupy Wall Street movement. I guess you forgot those lessons and it’s back to the stupid “handouts” tropes from the 1980s. You’re a rube if you support handouts to billionaires but not to your neighbors. A complete and utter useful idiot for the oligarchs running the country. They love idiots like you. The starving serf who kisses the king’s arse when he comes to visit their dilapidated village, thinking he’s superior to his neighbors while in no better shape than they are. If this is typical of Republican thinking, it’s no wonder the economy is always in free fall by he end of every GOP President’s stay at the White House. This post makes zero sense. Not a coherent thought in it. Please show me where I claimed that bailing out the banks was a good thing, I'll wait........... Who said I agree with any of that? I am fairly certain I used the example of the mortgage crisis to say that we needed to tackle the root of the problem which was poor lending habit. By and large, that was accomplished over the next few years. So why not tackle the real issue when it comes to student loans? Loan forgiveness is a band-aid "fix" and not even really a fix at all. How is pointing out a fact considered acting superior to others? Who called anyone an idiot for taking a loan? Do you disagree that taking a loan is a responsibility and people should be prepared for it? Do you disagree that individuals have the ability to determine if they are stretching themselves too financially thin? The average person trying to "get by and buy a house" could still do that. Maybe they need to not go for the house that is more than they can realistically afford, just because someone is willing to give them a loan they can't afford.... The banks and lenders were to blame for allowing them to do so, but a lot of people have the common sense to know better. Also, I'm not a republican. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dogcows 1,030 Posted July 5, 2023 1 hour ago, WhiteWonder said: I never criticized degrees. I don't disagree at all with what this silicon valley engineer says. I've heard this sentiment many many times and I agree completely. Nothing in my posts is critical of college degrees. True enough, my bad. But college loans are basically a necessity these days if one wants a degree. It used to be “accepted wisdom” that the degree would pay for itself with the increased salary over your life, and you’d be able to easily repay the loan. Sadly, that no longer seems to be the case; it’s more of a crapshoot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RLLD 4,180 Posted July 5, 2023 6 minutes ago, dogcows said: True enough, my bad. But college loans are basically a necessity these days if one wants a degree. It used to be “accepted wisdom” that the degree would pay for itself with the increased salary over your life, and you’d be able to easily repay the loan. Sadly, that no longer seems to be the case; it’s more of a crapshoot. Yes, but there are alternatives available. If you attend a school such as say...Florida, Michigan, others....you are going to over pay. But if you instead opt for a D3 in state school, you can do it far more cost effectively. You might still need some loans, but they will be far smaller. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dogcows 1,030 Posted July 5, 2023 7 minutes ago, RLLD said: Yes, but there are alternatives available. If you attend a school such as say...Florida, Michigan, others....you are going to over pay. But if you instead opt for a D3 in state school, you can do it far more cost effectively. You might still need some loans, but they will be far smaller. I agree for a person entering into this today, with their eyes wide open. But people who bought into the promise of a college degree years ago, and took the loans with that in mind? I can’t blame them for believing the accepted wisdom at the time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RLLD 4,180 Posted July 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, dogcows said: I agree for a person entering into this today, with their eyes wide open. But people who bought into the promise of a college degree years ago, and took the loans with that in mind? I can’t blame them for believing the accepted wisdom at the time. Perhaps. If they took on the obligation then that is on them, that is life.....just like the person who shunned school and instead sought loans for tens of thousands of dollars of equipment to start their own business. We are all making decisions, and sometimes we make bad ones. You bad decisions are not my problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dogcows 1,030 Posted July 5, 2023 3 hours ago, jerryskids said: Regardless, the issue at hand isn't whether or not the forgiveness was a good thing to do. The issue is if the POTUS can arbitrarily give a half trillion dollars to a group of people "just 'cause". The answer is, thankfully, regardless of the party in power: no. Funny, the court allowed Trump in 2020 to take money from various agencies to do wall construction. Congress refused to give Trump the money, so he just did what he wanted... and the court rubber-stamped that shite. https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-07-31/supreme-court-trump-border-wall-construction Quote Early last year, Trump demanded $5.7 billion for the border wall, but the House of Representatives, under Democratic control, refused, triggering a partial government shutdown that lasted 35 days. The impasse ended when Trump signed a new spending bill that did not include the border wall funding he sought. But a day later, he declared a national emergency and ordered the Pentagon to transfer $2.5 billion to pay for border wall projects. The administration said the new barriers, extending up to 130 miles, were designed to prevent “drug smuggling.” Later, Trump ordered the transfer of another $3.6 billion for new border barriers in Texas. The Constitution says, “No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury but in Consequence of Appropriations made by law.” “regardless of the party in power” - NOPE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dogcows 1,030 Posted July 5, 2023 1 minute ago, RLLD said: Perhaps. If they took on the obligation then that is on them, that is life.....just like the person who shunned school and instead sought loans for tens of thousands of dollars of equipment to start their own business. We are all making decisions, and sometimes we make bad ones. You bad decisions are not my problem. Business loans are dischargeable through bankruptcy if the business fails. If your degree doesn’t get you a good job, it doesn’t matter - college loans cannot be gotten rid of, even if you declare bankruptcy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerDodger 797 Posted July 5, 2023 Just now, dogcows said: Business loans are dischargeable through bankruptcy if the business fails. If your degree doesn’t get you a good job, it doesn’t matter - college loans cannot be gotten rid of, even if you declare bankruptcy. Geez how much do you owe bro? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dogcows 1,030 Posted July 5, 2023 Just now, RogerDodger said: Geez how much do you owe bro? $0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RLLD 4,180 Posted July 5, 2023 6 minutes ago, dogcows said: Business loans are dischargeable through bankruptcy if the business fails. If your degree doesn’t get you a good job, it doesn’t matter - college loans cannot be gotten rid of, even if you declare bankruptcy. And if they took out the loan and did not understand that distinction, then that is on them. It is the pursuit of the loans that helps drive the costs up. They are participating in the fraud. I do not have any sympathy for them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dogcows 1,030 Posted July 5, 2023 Just now, RLLD said: And if they took out the loan and did not understand that distinction, then that is on them. It is the pursuit of the loans that helps drive the costs up. They are participating in the fraud. I do not have any sympathy for them. Why should somebody with a business loan be allowed bankruptcy protection, but not student loans? It’s not about who you have sympathy for... it’s just an honest question. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryskids 6,662 Posted July 5, 2023 8 minutes ago, dogcows said: Funny, the court allowed Trump in 2020 to take money from various agencies to do wall construction. Congress refused to give Trump the money, so he just did what he wanted... and the court rubber-stamped that shite. https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-07-31/supreme-court-trump-border-wall-construction “regardless of the party in power” - NOPE Was that challenged and found constitutional? If so you may have the point. However, there is also a question of scale (about 100X), and justification -- a wall is easily defended as a matter of national defense, whereas IIRC the justification for the forgiveness was Covid, which proved to be very weak sauce. Unfortunately we've reached a point where presidents from both parties seem to try to one-up each other with executive orders; hopefully this sets us down the path of reducing that practice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RLLD 4,180 Posted July 5, 2023 1 minute ago, dogcows said: Why should somebody with a business loan be allowed bankruptcy protection, but not student loans? It’s not about who you have sympathy for... it’s just an honest question. Then let the students declare bankruptcy as well. I mean, they get the loans because of the government backing....something that tradesman does not have. So let it come back to them in THAT way. The world offers no free rides. You do not get to promise something and then not stand up to your onligation....in the words of KJP... Quote If you buy a car, you are expected to pay the monthly payments," Jean-Pierre answered. She continued, "If you buy a home, you are to pay the mortgage every month. That is the expectation. That is the spending that you put forth or spending that you may have done before. And now you're playing every month. If you do not pay your car payment, if you do not pay your mortgage payment, then your credit is going to be bad. It's going to hurt your credit." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardcore troubadour 15,137 Posted July 5, 2023 1 hour ago, dogcows said: Business loans are dischargeable through bankruptcy if the business fails. If your degree doesn’t get you a good job, it doesn’t matter - college loans cannot be gotten rid of, even if you declare bankruptcy. And take a guess who is responsible for student loans not being allowed to be discharged in bankruptcy? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloaca du jour 2,148 Posted July 5, 2023 Ill take bait and switch...take 2 for 100 Alex Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dogcows 1,030 Posted July 5, 2023 2 hours ago, jerryskids said: Was that challenged and found constitutional? If so you may have the point. However, there is also a question of scale (about 100X), and justification -- a wall is easily defended as a matter of national defense, whereas IIRC the justification for the forgiveness was Covid, which proved to be very weak sauce. Unfortunately we've reached a point where presidents from both parties seem to try to one-up each other with executive orders; hopefully this sets us down the path of reducing that practice. Congress allocated funds in a specific way in the NDAA. Trump took money that was specifically for certain things in the DoD and spent it OUTSIDE the DoD. So you have an Executive order using funds not specifically authorized by Congress... 5-4 in favor of Trump, then add a Trump justice, and the next one goes 6-3 against Biden. Even better? When the Trump case came up, SCOTUS said “oh keep taking money from DoD and building your wall until we rule.” But with Biden “Hold your horses, don’t do anything until we rule!” Also, Trump started “Title 42” as an executive order. Biden should have been able to simply de-authorize it through his own executive order, correct? Nope. SCOTUS blocked it. This is a blatantly obvious double standard, and sure - you can try and justify some way to explain it away if you want. But let’s get real. Conservative judges let Trump do what he wanted, and denied Biden in very similar circumstances. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seafoam1 2,867 Posted July 5, 2023 Liberals are so stupid. They keep proving it with every word spoken or written. Dang, they are dumb. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dizkneelande 1,093 Posted July 5, 2023 This puke is comparing half a trillion to 5 billion, something the government should have never got involved in if not for Democrats (student loans) vs. something the federal government is directly responsible for (border security) and, private sector bankruptcies that only affect private sector banks vs. US taxpayers most of which didn’t get the opportunity to go to college. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardcore troubadour 15,137 Posted July 5, 2023 I’m with Nancy Pelosi on the student debt issue. She had it right. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WhiteWonder 2,708 Posted July 6, 2023 5 hours ago, dogcows said: True enough, my bad. But college loans are basically a necessity these days if one wants a degree. It used to be “accepted wisdom” that the degree would pay for itself with the increased salary over your life, and you’d be able to easily repay the loan. Sadly, that no longer seems to be the case; it’s more of a crapshoot. ... and you think this has nothing to do with the insane rising costs of tuition? hence my entire point. Get to work reforming the system. Student debt relief doesn't change the broken system. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dogcows 1,030 Posted July 6, 2023 9 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said: ... and you think this has nothing to do with the insane rising costs of tuition? hence my entire point. Get to work reforming the system. Student debt relief doesn't change the broken system. We could do both. Some states (like Minnesota) are offering free tuition to state schools, depending on parents’ income. It will take more than that to fix this, but it’s a step in the right direction. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seafoam1 2,867 Posted July 6, 2023 7 minutes ago, dogcows said: We could do both. Some states (like Minnesota) are offering free tuition to state schools, depending on parents’ income. It will take more than that to fix this, but it’s a step in the right direction. Depending on parent's income. Liberals are so stupid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gepetto 1,329 Posted July 6, 2023 Homes, cars, and education are overpriced because of loans. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites