Guns Guns Guns

[BuckSwope 654]

13 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

School shootings? How many killed in the past 10 years? 

So....crime?

Statistically not that many deaths.  

No, not general crime, as this is a gun thread. 

[seafoam1 1,879]

2 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Statistically not that many deaths.  

No, not general crime, as this is a gun thread. 

Gun crimes are a part of crime. 

[BuckSwope 654]

18 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Gun crimes are a part of crime. 

Yes they are

[BuckSwope 654]

38 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

We've always had a lot of guns in the US but mass shootings increased over the last 30 years.  It wasn't the guns that changed over the last 30 years, it was our culture.  Fix our culture and stop trying to change our rights.  Fix the real problem.

What specifically about our culture has changed in the last 30 years, and what would your solution be if you were in charge?  

 

[BuckSwope 654]

54 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

Stop drugging up your kids because they're hyper and can't pay attention. Make them run it off like we used to back when we didn't shoot up our schools because we got teased. 

ETA: This would kill two birds with one stone. It would likely drastically reduce both school shootings and childhood obesity. 

That didn't answer my question. 

[Hawkeye21 1,855]

4 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

What specifically about our culture has changed in the last 30 years, and what would your solution be if you were in charge?  

 

We seem to have a major issue with mental health.  I think our young generation is more stressed out than ever and they don't know how to deal with it.  People are more medicated than ever.  We are trending towards people having less and less personal responsibility.  There's more but I would think you're already aware of it all.

I'm not sure how exactly we fix it.  I think personal responsibility needs to improve a great deal though.

[BuckSwope 654]

Just now, Hawkeye21 said:

We seem to have a major issue with mental health.  I think our young generation is more stressed out than ever and they don't know how to deal with it.  People are more medicated than ever.  We are trending towards people having less and less personal responsibility.  There's more but I would think you're already aware of it all.

I'm not sure how exactly we fix it.  I think personal responsibility needs to improve a great deal though.

Great you can admit that.   I mostly agree, and this is largely why I have landed on the stance I am at.   No matter how we cut it- gun deaths, murders, mass shootings, etc- there are multiple types.  Mental health matters little when we are talking gang violence, but a much more if we are talking school shootings.  Similar to meds, etc.  

[5-Points 2,732]

15 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

That didn't answer my question. 

The right has protected our constitutional rights from constant attack by the left. Which is what they were elected to do. 

[BuckSwope 654]

1 minute ago, 5-Points said:

The right has protected our constitutional rights from constant attack by the left. Which is what they were elected to do. 

Lol.  So nothing to address this specific problem.  It would have probably been easier just say that and admit neither party is doing fock all, and this is not just life in the USA. 

[Hawkeye21 1,855]

7 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Great you can admit that.

I've never said I knew how to fix it but I do know that we've had a large number of guns for a very long time in the US.  The guns haven't changed, our society has.

[5-Points 2,732]

1 hour ago, BuckSwope said:

Lol.  So nothing to address this specific problem.  It would have probably been easier just say that and admit neither party is doing fock all, and this is not just life in the USA. 

First of all, the right isn't clamoring for more gun control and outright bans as a starting point towards preventing illegal firearms use. The left needs to take the gun bans and further restrictions off the table if they want to have any meaningful discussion about violence prevention. 

Secondly, the NRA provides grants for school safety. I think we can safely say that more conservatives than liberals are NRA members, so saying the right hasn't done "fock all" isn't exactly accurate. 

 

[BuckSwope 654]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I've never said I knew how to fix it but I do know that we've had a large number of guns for a very long time in the US.  The guns haven't changed, our society has.

Sure, but you also seem to be telling others to fix something that you also have no ideas how to tackle either.   I

[BuckSwope 654]

10 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

First of all, the right isn't clamoring for more gun control and outright bans as a starting point towards preventing illegal firearms use. The left needs to take the gun bans and further restrictions off the table if they want to have any meaningful discussion about violence prevention. 

Secondly, the NRA provides grants for school safety. I think we can safely say that more conservatives than liberals are NRA members, so saying the right hasn't done "fock all" isn't exactly accurate. 

 

Well, I at least agree about the bans.  

[Hawkeye21 1,855]

1 hour ago, BuckSwope said:

Sure, but you also seem to be telling others to fix something that you also have no ideas how to tackle either.   I

Of course. There are lots of things that need to be done that I don’t know how to do. No different than the rest of you. 

[BuckSwope 654]

39 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Of course. There are lots of things that need to be done that I don’t know how to do. No different than the rest of you. 

Lol, OK.  So when you and others fail to provide answers and solutions, you shouldn't have issue with others moving forward with their ideas, since they actually have some even if you don't like them.  I guess, unless you aren't really that concerned about the issue in the first place. 

[seafoam1 1,879]

Ban cars!!!! 

Ban fat!ty food!!

Ban sugar!!!

Let's all work harder to vote people in to control our lives. 

[BuckSwope 654]

25 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Ban cars!!!! 

Ban fat!ty food!!

Ban sugar!!!

Let's all work harder to vote people in to control our lives. 

Wtf are you talking to? 

 

[dogcows 1,029]

5 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

We've always had a lot of guns in the US but mass shootings increased over the last 30 years.  It wasn't the guns that changed over the last 30 years, it was our culture.  Fix our culture and stop trying to change our rights.  Fix the real problem.

This is wrong in multiple ways. We have more than 2x as many guns as we did 30 years ago. Assault weapons were banned for a decade, and since the ban ended, the number of them sold has skyrocketed. The only defenses the gun humpers seem to have are either denying the problem, or lying about basic facts like how many guns there are. There is no honest defense.

I see ALL the same talking points defending gun rights in this thread. They haven’t changed, even though gun violence is much higher than 30 years ago, and way higher than in any other country. Worthless, and they simply don’t give a crap how many kids die as long as they get as many guns as they want.

[BuckSwope 654]

Honestly, the funniest thing of today's conversation was somebody trying to convince me that the right is doing something about the issue because a fraction of the money some of them give to the organiztion who spends most of their time making sure as many guns get into the hands of as many people possible is can be used for security cameras and new windows  (if I'm reading the info right) for when people show up to the school with guns.  Again, the guns that they lobby to make sure everybody gets.   

Victory!!  

[5-Points 2,732]

2 hours ago, BuckSwope said:

Honestly, the funniest thing of today's conversation was somebody trying to convince me that the right is doing something about the issue because a fraction of the money some of them give to the organiztion who spends most of their time making sure as many guns get into the hands of as many people possible is can be used for security cameras and new windows  (if I'm reading the info right) for when people show up to the school with guns.  Again, the guns that they lobby to make sure everybody gets.   

Victory!!  

That's more reasonable action than anything the left has done or even suggested. 

Why don't democrat politicians siphon off some of that Ukraine money and do something to make schools safer? Why is it gun bans or nothing with them? 

Answer: Because it isn't about keeping kids safe. 

[5-Points 2,732]

2 hours ago, dogcows said:

This is wrong in multiple ways. We have more than 2x as many guns as we did 30 years ago. Assault weapons were banned for a decade, and since the ban ended, the number of them sold has skyrocketed. The only defenses the gun humpers seem to have are either denying the problem, or lying about basic facts like how many guns there are. There is no honest defense.

I see ALL the same talking points defending gun rights in this thread. They haven’t changed, even though gun violence is much higher than 30 years ago, and way higher than in any other country. Worthless, and they simply don’t give a crap how many kids die as long as they get as many guns as they want.

 

[BuckSwope 654]

48 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

That's more reasonable action than anything the left has done or even suggested. 

Why don't democrat politicians siphon off some of that Ukraine money and do something to make schools safer? Why is it gun bans or nothing with them? 

Answer: Because it isn't about keeping kids safe. 

Answer: for either side.   It's not- it's about profit and lobbies.  

The answer to your questions are the same as above- $.   Why does the right give tax breaks to Wallstreet instead of making schools safe? 

It's not bans or nothing- come on.  I've seen proposals for longer wait times, higher age limits, clip size, adjustments to red flag laws, yes- in addition to bans.  All shot down most of the time.  

Isn't a bit sad that since something as awful as school mass shootings started spiking, the only thing we've come up with being done is the NRA has some grants set aside to help us protect kids from the event they help make easier to occur?  

As I said, as a country we seem to have decided these mass shootings are just taking the bad with the good.  

[5-Points 2,732]

35 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Answer: for either side.   It's not- it's about profit and lobbies.  

The answer to your questions are the same as above- $.   Why does the right give tax breaks to Wallstreet instead of making schools safe? 

It's not bans or nothing- come on.  I've seen proposals for longer wait times, higher age limits, clip size, adjustments to red flag laws, yes- in addition to bans.  All shot down most of the time.  

Isn't a bit sad that since something as awful as school mass shootings started spiking, the only thing we've come up with being done is the NRA has some grants set aside to help us protect kids from the event they help make easier to occur?  

As I said, as a country we seem to have decided these mass shootings are just taking the bad with the good.  

That is utter nonsense. The NRA does more for firearms safety than any entity in the country and probably the world. 

Parents need to parent better if we want kids to stop shooting up other kids. That is first and foremost. Infringing the rights of everybody because an infinitesimal number of shitstains haven't learned how to handle disappointment is not the answer. Perhaps a resurgence in corporal punishment is in order. Teach these morons that embarrassment isn't the end of the world by spanking them when they act up, in public if necessary. 

We've tried the left's version of child rearing for a few decades now and it has led to a less civil, disrespectful, shameless and more dangerous society wherein people have such little respect for human life that they indiscriminately shoot innocent, unarmed people because they had a bad day. 

Parent better and lay off the pharmaceuticals. Watch things improve dramatically. 

[BuckSwope 654]

The left! the left!     

Have a good weekend, man! 

[5-Points 2,732]

41 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

The left! the left!     

Have a good weekend, man! 

The right has plenty of culpability. They've done nothing to combat the left turn this country has taken. They sat back and let it happen because they were afraid of being called names. 

[dogcows 1,029]

Bad parents only exist in America. Mental health issues only exist in America. Pharmaceuticals only exist in America.

When pro-gun partisans blame these issues for the ungodly number of gun deaths, this is what they would have you believe. Why? Because they have a near-religious faith that the American gun violence problem could never, ever be due to us having more guns than people. It’s truly getting to flat-earther level at this point.

[Nomad99 411]

Every large media outlet has armed guards at their facility, yet they push an anti gun agenda. It's sickening to watch them spout off.....safe in their castles. Mention the same safeguards at a school & they flip out.

[GobbleDog 816]

God bless yall who still debate gun-righters. Yer fighting the good fight. I gave up. Articulate, stat-backed, logical arguments...  deaf ears. Political identity trumps reason.

And I'm Republican. One who doesn't always agree the party. Rare in these parts. 

[5-Points 2,732]

45 minutes ago, Nomad99 said:

Every large media outlet has armed guards at their facility, yet they push an anti gun agenda. It's sickening to watch them spout off.....safe in their castles. Mention the same safeguards at a school & they flip out.

Yup. They're more concerned with school aesthetics than school safety. 

[5-Points 2,732]

When anti-gun zealots complain about the illegal use of firearms in this country they never want to admit that .00001% of the guns in this country are ever used to commit murder. Because admitting that fact would destroy their entire argument that guns are the problem. 

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

1 hour ago, GobbleDog said:

God bless yall who still debate gun-righters. Yer fighting the good fight. I gave up. Articulate, stat-backed, logical arguments...  deaf ears. Political identity trumps reason.

And I'm Republican. One who doesn't always agree the party. Rare in these parts. 

 

 

Saagar Enjeti of Breaking Points brings up the core issue here IMHO. 

When you have a government that is functioning properly and serving the greater good of the people, particularly the working class, they will be more apt to surrender "some rights"

However if you fail the working class again and again, they won't trust you and they have figured out they are on their own. You can't enable the kind of crime, Defund The Police, "bail reform", identity politics above all else and the rioting/looting/burning of 2020 and not make people uneasy about the future. You can't make it easier for American citizens to be targets and prey and then simultaneously attempt to disarm them. 

Governor Kathy Hochul is a Democrat in New York. She has a full time security detail, that is armed and highly trained, paid for with our tax dollars. Easy for her to talk about taking everyone's guns. The rest of us, however, are on our own. 

There are lots of people who own guns that I don't want to own guns, if I am being honest about it. But I also recognize that "No One Else Is Coming To Save Me Or The People I Love" if something goes bad. 

Pushing stats does little for most people. This was the argument that Team Blue used in Loudoun County. That the bathroom rape was not widespread and not a common occurrence. By the numbers, that's true. However parents don't think that way. They don't accept even a tiny amount of threat to their kid's safety. To cite numbers and try to push the "it's not statistically significant" angle is actually insulting to those parents. 

My take is the same. The Founding Fathers gave us all the 2nd Amendment. For better or worse, it's here. I would prefer there would be some practical compromise in gun regulation. I don't believe an 18 year old should be able to buy an AR-15 off the shelf. However I also understand Team Blue is not looking for compromise, like Hochul, they just want to grab all the guns. 

You and others have to make a decision on what it takes for you to keep your family safe. That's your choice and your freedom. I'll do the same for mine. I won't tell you to have a gun. I don't want you to tell me to not have a gun. 

Your "logical arguments" apply to you. They don't have to apply to everyone else. Until the law changes, this is what we have. More women, single mothers, working class minorities, elderly and even LGBT are buying guns more than ever before in the last three years. We are talking record rates never seen before in American history. "New Gun Ownership" in the pandemic age is quite diverse. The majority of them when interviewed cite the need for personal safety given the current political/social/cultural climate, especially in larger cities. 

Team Blue wants our guns? Then give the working class something to believe in and trust. 

The Nazis didn't purge all the Jews in WW2 wholesale to start. They got rid of the gypsy types, the grifters, the soft criminals, the vagrants, those on the fringes. In some cases, the still powerful Jewish elite and leaders supported some of this. Cleaning the streets out. But they didn't see that what was being removed were the elements best suited for asymmetrical warfare. And were naturally inclined to form a resistance. 

Taking guns might sound reasonable to start to some here. But what happens when it becomes unreasonable? Our Founding Fathers risked being hanged for wanting the freedom to disagree. No wonder they wanted to keep their guns. 

You can only ask for submission by removing all context. But the context always matters. 

[GobbleDog 816]

17 minutes ago, Blue Horseshoe said:

Saagar Enjeti of Breaking Points brings up the core issue here IMHO. 

When you have a government that is functioning properly and serving the greater good of the people, particularly the working class, they will be more apt to surrender "some rights"

However if you fail the working class again and again, they won't trust you and they have figured out they are on their own. You can't enable the kind of crime, Defund The Police, "bail reform", identity politics above all else and the rioting/looting/burning of 2020 and not make people uneasy about the future. You can't make it easier for American citizens to be targets and prey and then simultaneously attempt to disarm them. 

Governor Kathy Hochul is a Democrat in New York. She has a full time security detail, that is armed and highly trained, paid for with our tax dollars. Easy for her to talk about taking everyone's guns. The rest of us, however, are on our own. 

There are lots of people who own guns that I don't want to own guns, if I am being honest about it. But I also recognize that "No One Else Is Coming To Save Me Or The People I Love" if something goes bad. 

Pushing stats does little for most people. This was the argument that Team Blue used in Loudoun County. That the bathroom rape was not widespread and not a common occurrence. By the numbers, that's true. However parents don't think that way. They don't accept even a tiny amount of threat to their kid's safety. To cite numbers and try to push the "it's not statistically significant" angle is actually insulting to those parents. 

My take is the same. The Founding Fathers gave us all the 2nd Amendment. For better or worse, it's here. I would prefer there would be some practical compromise in gun regulation. I don't believe an 18 year old should be able to buy an AR-15 off the shelf. However I also understand Team Blue is not looking for compromise, like Hochul, they just want to grab all the guns. 

You and others have to make a decision on what it takes for you to keep your family safe. That's your choice and your freedom. I'll do the same for mine. I won't tell you to have a gun. I don't want you to tell me to not have a gun. 

Your "logical arguments" apply to you. They don't have to apply to everyone else. Until the law changes, this is what we have. More women, single mothers, working class minorities, elderly and even LGBT are buying guns more than ever before in the last three years. We are talking record rates never seen before in American history. "New Gun Ownership" in the pandemic age is quite diverse. The majority of them when interviewed cite the need for personal safety given the current political/social/cultural climate, especially in larger cities. 

Team Blue wants our guns? Then give the working class something to believe in and trust. 

The Nazis didn't purge all the Jews in WW2 wholesale to start. They got rid of the gypsy types, the grifters, the soft criminals, the vagrants, those on the fringes. In some cases, the still powerful Jewish elite and leaders supported some of this. Cleaning the streets out. But they didn't see that what was being removed were the elements best suited for asymmetrical warfare. And were naturally inclined to form a resistance. 

Taking guns might sound reasonable to start to some here. But what happens when it becomes unreasonable? Our Founding Fathers risked being hanged for wanting the freedom to disagree. No wonder they wanted to keep their guns. 

You can only ask for submission by removing all context. But the context always matters. 

Old me would've wasted energy refuting all that.

New me says there's no point, so let's banana dance. 

[BuckSwope 654]

8 hours ago, 5-Points said:

When anti-gun zealots complain about the illegal use of firearms in this country they never want to admit that .00001% of the guns in this country are ever used to commit murder. Because admitting that fact would destroy their entire argument that guns are the problem. 

It doesn't, though.  You have a point about the low number of guns that are used for ill intent.   It is true and a valid point that the raw numbers don't mean as much when you think of them because a large number of the guns are owned by a small number of the population.   

That is NEVER my point when I talk about more regulation or that guns are part of the issue.  My point is that when a person decides to commit a heinous crime (or attempt suicide) the use of a gun and access to a gun over most other things makes the event MORE DEADLY.  

I'm not an anti-gun zealot, as I won't talk about gun backs and fully back people having them in their house for defense, but you seem to have issue with even my positions so I thought it was fair to answer.  

[5-Points 2,732]

1 hour ago, BuckSwope said:

It doesn't, though.  You have a point about the low number of guns that are used for ill intent.   It is true and a valid point that the raw numbers don't mean as much when you think of them because a large number of the guns are owned by a small number of the population.   

That is NEVER my point when I talk about more regulation or that guns are part of the issue.  My point is that when a person decides to commit a heinous crime (or attempt suicide) the use of a gun and access to a gun over most other things makes the event MORE DEADLY.  

I'm not an anti-gun zealot, as I won't talk about gun backs and fully back people having them in their house for defense, but you seem to have issue with even my positions so I thought it was fair to answer.  

In my opinion, it does. You can't point at an astronomically low percentage of something happening and claim that  THAT something is the main issue. The percentage of guns used for ill intent is so low as to be statistically insignificant. Especially when compared to the estimated 1 million + instances of defensive gun use in this country annually.

Clearly, I wasn't referring to you as an anti-gun zealot. I may disagree with some of your positions but I don't have an issue with you. You, at least, appear to be willing to discuss the issue in good faith. Which is more than can be said for some. 

It is my firm belief that the issue isn't a firearms issue, it is a behavioral issue. Behavior is learned and can be unlearned. Rights, once removed, are never returned. Which is why we should exhaust all other possible solutions before submitting to the knee-jerk, feel good reaction to infringe on constitutional rights. Just so we can say we did something. 

 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 2,523]

9 hours ago, GobbleDog said:

Old me would've wasted energy refuting all that.

New me says there's no point, so let's banana dance. 

It's hard to refute the truth's laid out by @Blue Horseshoe with lefty lies and propaganda.

You made the right decision here to not refute because had you done so it would have been bad for you.  You saved face.

[BuckSwope 654]

1 hour ago, 5-Points said:

In my opinion, it does. You can't point at an astronomically low percentage of something happening and claim that  THAT something is the main issue. The percentage of guns used for ill intent is so low as to be statistically insignificant. Especially when compared to the estimated 1 million + instances of defensive gun use in this country annually.

Clearly, I wasn't referring to you as an anti-gun zealot. I may disagree with some of your positions but I don't have an issue with you. You, at least, appear to be willing to discuss the issue in good faith. Which is more than can be said for some. 

It is my firm belief that the issue isn't a firearms issue, it is a behavioral issue. Behavior is learned and can be unlearned. Rights, once removed, are never returned. Which is why we should exhaust all other possible solutions before submitting to the knee-jerk, feel good reaction to infringe on constitutional rights. Just so we can say we did something. 

 

To the first part, it 100% depends specifically on what we are talking about.   If we are debating crime in general and somebody pipes up about a gun problem, then I see your point.  But most of the time these discussions are focused on GUN death or mass SHOOTINGs - so then absolutely the weapon being used needs to be a big part of the focus and discussion.  And the fact that they make death a more likely outcome when used is the core of the issue, at least for me.   

The bolded is a very fair point.  

[BuckSwope 654]

1 hour ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

It's hard to refute the truth's laid out by @Blue Horseshoe with lefty lies and propaganda.

You made the right decision here to not refute because had you done so it would have been bad for you.  You saved face.

1.  Probably not, but it would require reading all that crap and watching the videos. 

2.  HE didn't lay anything out - he copies and pastes other people's thoughts that THEY laid out.  

 

This has to be GG or a clone.  It's just funny to me that people think they are winning the internet because they copy and paste so much sh1t that nobody wants to bother engaging.  But that lack of engagement proves their "thoughts" are ironclad.  Winning!!  

[dogcows 1,029]

14 hours ago, 5-Points said:

When anti-gun zealots complain about the illegal use of firearms in this country they never want to admit that .00001% of the guns in this country are ever used to commit murder. Because admitting that fact would destroy their entire argument that guns are the problem. 

.00001% of 400 million is 40. So you’re saying only 40 guns are responsible for every murder in America? If we can find those 40 guns, we will have solved the problem then. Good job, thanks for the dumbest post on the internet. Yet another gun-humping ammosexual “genius.”

[EternalShinyAndChrome 2,523]

2 hours ago, BuckSwope said:

1.  Probably not, but it would require reading all that crap and watching the videos. 

2.  HE didn't lay anything out - he copies and pastes other people's thoughts that THEY laid out.  

 

This has to be GG or a clone.  It's just funny to me that people think they are winning the internet because they copy and paste so much sh1t that nobody wants to bother engaging.  But that lack of engagement proves their "thoughts" are ironclad.  Winning!!  

He's copying and pasting links to back up his arguments.  Isn't that what you want? 

And it is GG - I'm 100% sure of it. 

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

14 hours ago, GobbleDog said:

God bless yall who still debate gun-righters. Yer fighting the good fight. I gave up. Articulate, stat-backed, logical arguments...  deaf ears. Political identity trumps reason.

And I'm Republican. One who doesn't always agree the party. Rare in these parts.