u.k. 9 Posted November 16, 2023 Israel continues to destroy hospital in Gaza, no evidence of command center or underground tunnels. They just killing civilians. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/16/what-has-israel-found-in-gazas-al-shifa-hospital Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
League Champion 1,896 Posted November 16, 2023 1 minute ago, u.k. said: They just killing civilians. Just like the Palestinians are? It's WAR, war sucks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,148 Posted November 16, 2023 1 hour ago, u.k. said: Israel continues to destroy hospital in Gaza, no evidence of command center or underground tunnels. They just killing civilians. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/16/what-has-israel-found-in-gazas-al-shifa-hospital Wake me up when Hamas releases the 200+ Hostages. Until then GFY. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nobody 2,557 Posted November 16, 2023 Yeah I'm sure israel is just like "screw it, let's just start blowing up hospitals for fun." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,148 Posted November 16, 2023 1 minute ago, nobody said: Yeah I'm sure israel is just like "screw it, let's just start blowing up hospitals for fun." There is a statistically significant portion of people who think Israel “let” Hamas in, made up the whole October 7th stuff just to give them a reason to retaliate. Sandy Hook stuff. These people are retarded and ignorant. Terrible combination. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RLLD 4,143 Posted November 16, 2023 18 minutes ago, KSB2424 said: There is a statistically significant portion of people who think Israel “let” Hamas in, made up the whole October 7th stuff just to give them a reason to retaliate. Sandy Hook stuff. These people are retarded and ignorant. Terrible combination. I do not think Israel knew.....at least I have heard and seen nothing to support that....yet.... I DO believe that that USA knew......and purposely said nothing. I have heard and seen plenty to suggest that is true. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryskids 6,549 Posted November 16, 2023 2 hours ago, RLLD said: In the mind of the leftist any action they choose is "justified", this is something they share with terrorists..... Its an immature view, but no one has apparently stepped up in their lives to teach them anything other than hate. So when your position is that YOU are good.....and those who do not conform to your world view are evil.....anything you choose to do to harm your opponents is therefore fine. And then anything THEY do....is the worst evil possible....even if they are doing they very act you just completed. Its really is a terrible way to think, but this is the modern liberal doctrine. It's a religious fervor, like the jihadists, which is described in that Sam Harris pod I linked. When you believe, truly believe, that you are on the side of good and the other is the side of evil, you gladly strap a bomb to your chest and blow yourself up in a crowd. Any Muslims who die will achieve the eternal joy of heaven; any infidels will suffer eternal misery in hell. There is no bad outcome from such an attack. I cannot emphasize this enough: no bad outcome. No collateral, unnecessary deaths. Allahu Akbar! Now obviously, our Left hasn't reached that level of zealotry, but as you say, it is this underlying conviction which makes it OK for others to rape and burn women and children, then hide behind their own hospitals and schools, then blame the victims of the raping and burning for not providing enough fuel in their donation to, ultimately, the people who raped and burned their women and children. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,148 Posted November 16, 2023 3 minutes ago, jerryskids said: It's a religious fervor, like the jihadists, which is described in that Sam Harris pod I linked. When you believe, truly believe, that you are on the side of good and the other is the side of evil, you gladly strap a bomb to your chest and blow yourself up in a crowd. Any Muslims who die will achieve the eternal joy of heaven; any infidels will suffer eternal misery in hell. There is no bad outcome from such an attack. I cannot emphasize this enough: no bad outcome. No collateral, unnecessary deaths. Allahu Akbar! Now obviously, our Left hasn't reached that level of zealotry, but as you say, it is this underlying conviction which makes it OK for others to rape and burn women and children, then hide behind their own hospitals and schools, then blame the victims of the raping and burning for not providing enough fuel in their donation to, ultimately, the people who raped and burned their women and children. Completely spot on. I can’t believe the sheer lunacy I’m seeing here in America and even on this here board in regards to this issue. Unbelievable stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 4,057 Posted November 16, 2023 12 hours ago, HellToupee said: She’s cute when she’s angry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 4,057 Posted November 16, 2023 37 minutes ago, RLLD said: I do not think Israel knew.....at least I have heard and seen nothing to support that....yet.... I DO believe that that USA knew......and purposely said nothing. I have heard and seen plenty to suggest that is true. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 4,057 Posted November 16, 2023 1 hour ago, nobody said: Yeah I'm sure israel is just like "screw it, let's just start blowing up hospitals for fun." You used to be a smart fella. But you’ve gone way down the rabbit hole and now I guess I have to explain things to you like you’re a toddler It is, indeed, highly doubtful that Israel is attacking hospitals just to do it. Much more likely is that they are targeting Hamas either in the hospital or in tunnels right underneath. However, obviously, there will be significant collateral damage when you target right under a hospital. So the question is what is the acceptable risk there? Israel says we don’t care, it’s not our problem, Hamas built the tunnels under there on purpose so it’s their fault. But there is a counter, which is that regardless of what Hamas has done or their purposeful use of civilians as human shields, Israel still has an obligation not to blow up hospitals where civilians are being treated. Now I don’t even know where I, personally, come down on this, because I do see both sides here. But to pretend like it’s not even a question for debate is either extremely silly or ridiculously stupid. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardcore troubadour 14,910 Posted November 16, 2023 I think we need to open our doors and bring more Palestinians here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryskids 6,549 Posted November 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, IGotWorms said: You used to be a smart fella. But you’ve gone way down the rabbit hole and now I guess I have to explain things to you like you’re a toddler It is, indeed, highly doubtful that Israel is attacking hospitals just to do it. Much more likely is that they are targeting Hamas either in the hospital or in tunnels right underneath. However, obviously, there will be significant collateral damage when you target right under a hospital. So the question is what is the acceptable risk there? Israel says we don’t care, it’s not our problem, Hamas built the tunnels under there on purpose so it’s their fault. But there is a counter, which is that regardless of what Hamas has done or their purposeful use of civilians as human shields, Israel still has an obligation not to blow up hospitals where civilians are being treated. Now I don’t even know where I, personally, come down on this, because I do see both sides here. But to pretend like it’s not even a question for debate is either extremely silly or ridiculously stupid. What's "ridiculously stupid" is your unicorn middle ground. I explained early on that there is no middle ground, I'm not going to rehash it in detail. But if you don't support the elimination of the cockroaches, and that requires the destruction of their homes, you support them regrouping and committing more acts like 10/7. Which they told you is their plan the week after 10/7. This "well, they could do a more surgical..." yeah, if they could have done that, they would have done it a decade ago. Sheesh, crawling thru sewers trying to one-off cockroaches with Uzis... It's like Biden saying cops should shoot suspects in the leg, only way dumber. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,148 Posted November 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, IGotWorms said: You used to be a smart fella. But you’ve gone way down the rabbit hole and now I guess I have to explain things to you like you’re a toddler It is, indeed, highly doubtful that Israel is attacking hospitals just to do it. Much more likely is that they are targeting Hamas either in the hospital or in tunnels right underneath. However, obviously, there will be significant collateral damage when you target right under a hospital. So the question is what is the acceptable risk there? Israel says we don’t care, it’s not our problem, Hamas built the tunnels under there on purpose so it’s their fault. But there is a counter, which is that regardless of what Hamas has done or their purposeful use of civilians as human shields, Israel still has an obligation not to blow up hospitals where civilians are being treated. Now I don’t even know where I, personally, come down on this, because I do see both sides here. But to pretend like it’s not even a question for debate is either extremely silly or ridiculously stupid. Hamas committed atrocities in October 7th knowing / wanting a retaliation would come. They threaten and keep against their will citizens in Gaza from leaving. Instead of building a prosperous state which has beautiful coast lines, they build rockets and underground tunnels the kind of the NYC subway system would be proud. It’s a proven fact they store themselves and munitions with and below schools and hospitals. Stop with the “both” sides fence riding. There are people who just want to live in peace and then there are Radical Islamic Terrorists (Hamas) who’s only goal is to eradicate every Jew alive, and then when that’s done, they come for the West. Some of you are clowns. Y’all think this is like Russia vs Ukraine and just another war over land. Idiots. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 4,057 Posted November 16, 2023 3 minutes ago, jerryskids said: What's "ridiculously stupid" is your unicorn middle ground. I explained early on that there is no middle ground, I'm not going to rehash it in detail. But if you don't support the elimination of the cockroaches, and that requires the destruction of their homes, you support them regrouping and committing more acts like 10/7. Which they told you is their plan the week after 10/7. This "well, they could do a more surgical..." yeah, if they could have done that, they would have done it a decade ago. Sheesh, crawling thru sewers trying to one-off cockroaches with Uzis... It's like Biden saying cops should shoot suspects in the leg, only way dumber. Evidently, you can’t read Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 4,057 Posted November 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, KSB2424 said: Hamas committed atrocities in October 7th knowing / wanting a retaliation would come. They threaten and keep against their will citizens in Gaza from leaving. Instead of building a prosperous state which has beautiful coast lines, they build rockets and underground tunnels the kind of the NYC subway system would be proud. It’s a proven fact they store themselves and munitions with and below schools and hospitals. Stop with the “both” sides fence riding. There are people who just want to live in peace and then there are Radical Islamic Terrorists (Hamas) who’s only goal is to eradicate every Jew alive, and then when that’s done, they come for the West. Some of you are clowns. Y’all think this is like Russia vs Ukraine and just another war over land. Idiots. Your first paragraph is exactly what I acknowledged The rest is childish. Yes Hamas needs to be eradicated. Yes lots of civilians are being killed by Israel. Yes there is a tension there. HTH And then to invoke Russia invading Ukraine? While claiming I am not sufficiently defending the West?? Putin’s whole thing is to try to beat the West, you dummy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryskids 6,549 Posted November 16, 2023 3 minutes ago, IGotWorms said: Evidently, you can’t read What did I get wrong, Matlock? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 4,057 Posted November 16, 2023 9 minutes ago, jerryskids said: What's "ridiculously stupid" is your unicorn middle ground. I explained early on that there is no middle ground, I'm not going to rehash it in detail. But if you don't support the elimination of the cockroaches, and that requires the destruction of their homes, you support them regrouping and committing more acts like 10/7. Which they told you is their plan the week after 10/7. This "well, they could do a more surgical..." yeah, if they could have done that, they would have done it a decade ago. Sheesh, crawling thru sewers trying to one-off cockroaches with Uzis... It's like Biden saying cops should shoot suspects in the leg, only way dumber. The bolded is completely false. The rest isn’t what I said. I flat-out told you I don’t know what the answer is. Simply that, yes, lots of civilians are being killed in Gaza, and yes, that is an issue. Of course it’s an issue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,148 Posted November 16, 2023 Worms is all over the place. Pretty sure he has ADHD. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Real timschochet 6,391 Posted November 16, 2023 1 minute ago, KSB2424 said: Worms is all over the place. Pretty sure he has ADHD. Or maybe, just maybe, this is a complex subject and black and white viewpoints don’t apply and aren’t really helpful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
u.k. 9 Posted November 16, 2023 1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said: Or maybe, just maybe, this is a complex subject and black and white viewpoints don’t apply and aren’t really helpful. Anyone who says "there is no middle ground" is not a critical thinker. These types of people are the death of civilization. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardcore troubadour 14,910 Posted November 16, 2023 15 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said: Or maybe, just maybe, this is a complex subject and black and white viewpoints don’t apply and aren’t really helpful. Now do Ukraine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Real timschochet 6,391 Posted November 16, 2023 4 minutes ago, u.k. said: Anyone who says "there is no middle ground" is not a critical thinker. These types of people are the death of civilization. Death of civilization? Well I wouldn’t go that far. But it’s a distinctly conservative trait to look at events in terms of black and white, good and evil. This can be a great strength: sometimes it helps to have moral clarity and liberals often get confused about this: the college students who sympathize with Hamas struggle from a lack of moral clarity IMO. It’s an admirable trait and it has always caused me to admire and like most conservatives I know. But on the other hand it can also be a weakness particularly as you move beyond the general outlines of a situation and into the details and that’s what the problem is here. Moral clarity is not so good if it causes you to make snap judgments based not on the specific details of an event, but instead that aligns with your world view. Simply put, many here have decided that Israel is the good guy in this affair and will therefore find justification for anything Israel does- because Hamas is so evil (which is true.) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,148 Posted November 16, 2023 13 minutes ago, u.k. said: Anyone who says "there is no middle ground" is not a critical thinker. These types of people are the death of civilization. What middle ground do you think Hamas would permanently accept? I’m all ears Einstein. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardcore troubadour 14,910 Posted November 16, 2023 “Listen, my starting position is we want you wiped off the face of the earth, but let’s find some middle ground “. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RaiderHaters Revenge 4,236 Posted November 16, 2023 6 minutes ago, KSB2424 said: What middle ground do you think Hamas would permanently accept? I’m all ears Einstein. death to all jews is middle ground to them death to all infidels would be their extreme Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Real timschochet 6,391 Posted November 16, 2023 4 minutes ago, KSB2424 said: What middle ground do you think Hamas would permanently accept? I’m all ears Einstein. None. Hams is evil and needs to be eradicated. There is no middle ground there. But he wasn’t referring to that. In terms of HOW Hamas should be destroyed, how Israel should behave, how the USA should behave, what strategic and tactical moves make the most sense in this situation- all of that has PLENTY of middle ground. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
League Champion 1,896 Posted November 16, 2023 There is absolutely NO MIDDLE GROUND. These animals are taught from birth to hate, they're BRED TO HATE. So what do you do??? You let them into the US, give them free Obama Phones, schooling, welfare, housing, healthcare and a Democrat Registered Voter Card. Easy peasy! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RLLD 4,143 Posted November 16, 2023 1 hour ago, KSB2424 said: Completely spot on. I can’t believe the sheer lunacy I’m seeing here in America and even on this here board in regards to this issue. Unbelievable stuff. When we consider this, and then couple it with common liberal beliefs....and notably those espoused here in this forum.....we can see how easy it is to indoctrinate people..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 4,057 Posted November 16, 2023 46 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said: Now do Ukraine. Ok. Putin is an enemy of western democracy and would like to destroy western democracies in Eastern Europe (and probably beyond, but that’s fanciful for now). He has attacked a western democracy and ally in the Ukraine and is right on the doorstep of other western democracies and nato members in Romania, Finland, Poland etc. So we need to support the Ukraine and thwart Russia’s aims. This is not debatable. Just like it *shouldn’t* be debatable that we need to support Israel (this is where I disagree with the anti-Semitic far left and, to some extent, far right). However, it is fair to ask what the aim is. Ukraine actually winning the war? Holding its ground as it is now? Gaining back Donbas? Gaining back Donbas and even Crimea from back in 2014? This is where the reasonable debate can be. It’s also fair to say we’re at a stalemate for now, at least. So if the goal is simply for Ukraine to hold what it currently controls, and it doesn’t seem like they can take back any land, then perhaps we should be looking at an agreement to end the war. It’s odorous but perhaps we do need to let Russia keep what it has taken and end this thing. However, that is very bad for Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty and perhaps not a compromise we should force them to make. Were the shoe on the other foot and people were saying “hey, just let Russia have the east coast, Florida, Alabama and Texas and call it good,” I’m pretty sure Americans would not stand for that, ever. So personally I say keep feeding them. It is essentially an indefinite engagement, and I do understand that many are uncomfortable with that, but I think it’s strategically the best decision for the US and I think it’s the right thing to do. But I do see the other side on this and think it’s reasonable to ask, is this the time we force Ukraine into accepting an end to this war, and if not now, then when? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,148 Posted November 16, 2023 49 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said: None. Hams is evil and needs to be eradicated. There is no middle ground there. But he wasn’t referring to that. In terms of HOW Hamas should be destroyed, how Israel should behave, how the USA should behave, what strategic and tactical moves make the most sense in this situation- all of that has PLENTY of middle ground. B.S. those are ancillary topics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
u.k. 9 Posted November 16, 2023 1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said: None. Hams is evil and needs to be eradicated. There is no middle ground there. But he wasn’t referring to that. In terms of HOW Hamas should be destroyed, how Israel should behave, how the USA should behave, what strategic and tactical moves make the most sense in this situation- all of that has PLENTY of middle ground. Take it a step further, how did we get to where we are today? History. Learn it. Why does Hamas attack Israel? Because they just woke up on Oct 7 and decided to attack for fun? Because their religion tells them to? Or because there is a long history of violence that only escalates? And if you stick with the conservative black/white thought process, they will see this line of thinking as "YOUR EXCUSING THE RAPING AND KILLING OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN!". No. There is no "excuse" for violence, but there are reasons why it happens, and there are things we can learn from history, and try and make changes to lesson the violence. It is true that Hamas is probably too far gone and needs to be eradicated, but what then? We tried to eradicate the Taliban, how did that work out? Are we to simply murder people that disagree with us before they murder us? Isn't that the same thing that the enemy is thinking? When does it end? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,148 Posted November 16, 2023 8 minutes ago, u.k. said: Take it a step further, how did we get to where we are today? History. Learn it. Why does Hamas attack Israel? Because they just woke up on Oct 7 and decided to attack for fun? Because their religion tells them to? Or because there is a long history of violence that only escalates? And if you stick with the conservative black/white thought process, they will see this line of thinking as "YOUR EXCUSING THE RAPING AND KILLING OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN!". No. There is no "excuse" for violence, but there are reasons why it happens, and there are things we can learn from history, and try and make changes to lesson the violence. It is true that Hamas is probably too far gone and needs to be eradicated, but what then? We tried to eradicate the Taliban, how did that work out? Are we to simply murder people that disagree with us before they murder us? Isn't that the same thing that the enemy is thinking? When does it end? Is this supposed to be an enlightening post? This is written like a 12 year old. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 4,057 Posted November 16, 2023 29 minutes ago, u.k. said: Take it a step further, how did we get to where we are today? History. Learn it. Why does Hamas attack Israel? Because they just woke up on Oct 7 and decided to attack for fun? Because their religion tells them to? Or because there is a long history of violence that only escalates? And if you stick with the conservative black/white thought process, they will see this line of thinking as "YOUR EXCUSING THE RAPING AND KILLING OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN!". No. There is no "excuse" for violence, but there are reasons why it happens, and there are things we can learn from history, and try and make changes to lesson the violence. It is true that Hamas is probably too far gone and needs to be eradicated, but what then? We tried to eradicate the Taliban, how did that work out? Are we to simply murder people that disagree with us before they murder us? Isn't that the same thing that the enemy is thinking? When does it end? This veers into apologizing for Hamas. There is no excusing Hamas, period. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
u.k. 9 Posted November 16, 2023 1 minute ago, IGotWorms said: This veers into apologizing for Hamas. There is no excusing Hamas, period. You obviously can't read, I said there is no excuse for Hamas's attack, but that doesn't mean we can't understand why they did it. We do this all the time, with all kinds of crimes. We need to understand the past to change the future. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,148 Posted November 16, 2023 21 minutes ago, u.k. said: We need to understand the past to change the future. Breathtaking analysis here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardcore troubadour 14,910 Posted November 16, 2023 25 minutes ago, u.k. said: You obviously can't read, I said there is no excuse for Hamas's attack, but that doesn't mean we can't understand why they did it. We do this all the time, with all kinds of crimes. We need to understand the past to change the future. Oh. So we need to understand. Then what? What’s the fix? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryskids 6,549 Posted November 16, 2023 21 minutes ago, u.k. said: You obviously can't read, I said there is no excuse for Hamas's attack, but that doesn't mean we can't understand why they did it. We do this all the time, with all kinds of crimes. We need to understand the past to change the future. They did it because they hate the Jews and want to destroy them all. They have told you this but you won't listen (whoever you are) because I presume the cognitive dissonance conflicts with your liberal desire to think "well if they did that, the other guys must have done something really, really bad to cause them to behave like that." Classic oppressor/oppressed marxism. It is in the Koran. It is in the chronicles of Mohammed. Hamas has 100% moral clarity in their actions. China or Russia, you can negotiate with. There is no negotiation with Hamas. To think there is is childish. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardcore troubadour 14,910 Posted November 16, 2023 As I understand, Hamas wants Israel back and Jews destroyed. Am I close, or is there some nuance I’m missing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
u.k. 9 Posted November 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, jerryskids said: They did it because they hate the Jews and want to destroy them all. They have told you this but you won't listen (whoever you are) because I presume the cognitive dissonance conflicts with your liberal desire to think "well if they did that, the other guys must have done something really, really bad to cause them to behave like that." Classic oppressor/oppressed marxism. It is in the Koran. It is in the chronicles of Mohammed. Hamas has 100% moral clarity in their actions. China or Russia, you can negotiate with. There is no negotiation with Hamas. To think there is is childish. OK, so if Israel kills everyone in Hamas, then there will be peace? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites