Israel attacks Iran UPDATE: Trump claims a cease fire among all countries

[Hardcore troubadour 15,265]

I’ll say it again. They don’t get peace if they don’t surrender or whatever term you desire to use. Israel ain’t going for it. So there is no “peace” negotiation going on. There are terms. It’s that simple. Black and white have you. I used to do nuance. It’s mostly A BS word liberals use to cover up the facts and experience that show their shitty ideas don’t work. 

[Gepetto 1,353]

Did Trump really threaten to Nuke Iran?

[zsasz 368]

3 hours ago, Cdub100 said:

My objection is Israel is the ONLY state that gets to lobby our politians as if they are not a foreign entity.

I object to Jews being over represented in all aspects of our lives from, government, media, education, etc...

I object that during the NYC race for mayor a candidate was grilled because he said he would stay in NYC and not go pay fealty to Israel. That every presidents first trip is to go put on a tiny hat and stand next to a wall.

I object Jews can commit crimes here and then race off to Israel for protection.

And I object to Israel trying to drag us into another stupid war nobody wants any part of. Other than warhawk GOP, defense contractors and jews

 

I don't disagree with some of your points; but at the end of the day, I'm a firm believer in the idea(s) that if Fundamentalist Islam put down their weapons...Israel would have peace but if Israel put down their weapons....they'd cease to exist AND I've never really seen an Israeli or Jew chant "Death to America".  

[Sandy Loam 43]

 

[jerryskids 6,726]

2 hours ago, Ron_Artest said:

We were at war with Japan.  They attacked us first.  We're not at war with Iran.  They have nothing to surrender.

Are you for real?

They have their nuclear development capability to surrender.  Surely you know this.   

[Ron_Artest 1,330]

10 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

They have their nuclear development capability to surrender.  Surely you know this.   

That's not a surrender.  That's the US giving them a demand otherwise we will attack them.

Chicken hawk.

I swear it's like people forgot Iraq.

[jerryskids 6,726]

1 minute ago, Ron_Artest said:

That's not a surrender.  That's the US giving them a demand otherwise we will attack them.

Chicken hawk.

Peace through strength.  Strength might require a MOAB or two.  

Your solution is to continue cuddling Iran's nut sack until they develop nukes and give them to their terrorist proxies.

Thank goodness you are not in charge of this.

[Ron_Artest 1,330]

2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Peace through strength.  Strength might require a MOAB or two.  

Your solution is to continue cuddling Iran's nut sack until they develop nukes and give them to their terrorist proxies.

Thank goodness you are not in charge of this.

Murdering Iranians is not peace.

There is a middle ground between slaughter and sack cuddling but it's too nuanced for you to understand.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,265]

Iraq was always about boots on the ground.  And we led the charge.  It’s like Gutterboy forgot Iraq

[Hardcore troubadour 15,265]

You know what’s Fuucking hilarious? The ones saying I wished rape on people are talking about nuance. I love the lack of self awareness this place offers.  Thanks for the laugh shitt heads. 

[Ron_Artest 1,330]

3 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Iraq was always about boots on the ground.  And we led the charge.  It’s like Gutterboy forgot Iraq

What's the plan for Iran?

[Ron_Artest 1,330]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

You know what’s Fuucking hilarious? The ones saying I wished rape on people are talking about nuance. I love the lack of self awareness this place offers.  Thanks for the laugh shitt heads. 

What's the nuance about telling someone you wish their kid gets raped?

[Hardcore troubadour 15,265]

Just now, Ron_Artest said:

What's the nuance about telling someone you wish their kid gets raped?

You’re right, none.  Carry on with your gotcha. I like it.  

[Mark Davis 387]

27 minutes ago, Ron_Artest said:

What's the plan for Iran?

There has always been a belief that if you bomb, you have to have a plan for the regime collapsing, whether that's helping a new government or rebuilding the society.  I submit to you the idea that Afghanistan is in the place today that it would be had we simply bombed them until Bin Laden fled and then just left it as it was.  We didn't need to spend fortunes and lives in a hopeless effort to turn their society into something it isn't.  It's up to the Iranians to determine their society.  The only reason I give a moment's care to whether their leader lives or dies is the nuclear program.  It's becoming pretty obvious that if he gives it up, for the time being the window is open for him to stay in power.  If he fails to do so, that site will be bombed by the U.S. or be subject to an Israeli commando raid, at the end or simultaneously with either the Ayatollah will cease to breathe.

I simply don't think Trump is the old standard in where he much cares what happens to that country after he deems our direct interests are met.  It would have served us well in Afghanistan and maybe would have helped us stay out of Iraq.  I still have extreme anger towards Bush/Cheney for getting us into that mess.  Part of the reason Iran had to be dealt with now is that removed the counter-weight to their power in the region when we toppled Saddam.  When you have two bad actors that hate one another, let them constantly fight and weaken the other and it also keeps them from turning their attention to you.

[The Real timschochet 6,636]

1 minute ago, Mark Davis said:

There has always been a belief that if you bomb, you have to have a plan for the regime collapsing, whether that's helping a new government or rebuilding the society.  I submit to you the idea that Afghanistan is in the place today that it would be had we simply bombed them until Bin Laden fled and then just left it as it was.  We didn't need to spend fortunes and lives in a hopeless effort to turn their society into something it isn't.  It's up to the Iranians to determine their society.  The only reason I give a moment's care to whether their leader lives or dies is the nuclear program.  It's becoming pretty obvious that if he gives it up, for the time being the window is open for him to stay in power.  If he fails to do so, that site will be bombed by the U.S. or be subject to an Israeli commando raid, at the end or simultaneously with either the Ayatollah will cease to breathe.

I simply don't think Trump is the old standard in where he much cares what happens to that country after he deems our direct interests are met.  It would have served us well in Afghanistan and maybe would have helped us stay out of Iraq.  I still have extreme anger towards Bush/Cheney for getting us into that mess.  Part of the reason Iran had to be dealt with now is that removed the counter-weight to their power in the region when we toppled Saddam.  When you have two bad actors that hate one another, let them constantly fight and weaken the other and it also keeps them from turning their attention to you.

You make good points here. But I think your overall position is too isolationists. There are things we want and don’t want: 

We want: 

A nuclear free, democratic Iran, willing to peacefully trade with their neighbors and the rest of the world. That is the ideal. (Since this would radically improve the lives and prosperity of almost all Iranians, they should want this too.) 

We don’t want: 

Iran retaliating to our strike by closing the Strait of Hormuz (make no mistake that would force us to invade Iran.) Or sending terrorists around the world or here to strike at the USA or Americans. 
 

As I wrote earlier there are serious risks either way here and this is a tough decision. 

[Mark Davis 387]

9 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

You make good points here. But I think your overall position is too isolationists. There are things we want and don’t want: 

We want: 

A nuclear free, democratic Iran, willing to peacefully trade with their neighbors and the rest of the world. That is the ideal. (Since this would radically improve the lives and prosperity of almost all Iranians, they should want this too.) 

We don’t want: 

Iran retaliating to our strike by closing the Strait of Hormuz (make no mistake that would force us to invade Iran.) Or sending terrorists around the world or here to strike at the USA or Americans. 
 

As I wrote earlier there are serious risks either way here and this is a tough decision. 

We do want a democratic and peaceful Iran.  The problem is we don't get to make that decision.  We tried that in Afghanistan and Iraq.  We at the very least aided such an effort in Libya.  We have zero track record for successfully achieving that and in my mind make it even worse when we try to stipulate who leads those nations.

Nobody wants terrorists striking around the globe or the Strait of Hormuz closed, but if we capitulate to the possibility that Iran may do this, then where does that leave us when it comes to North Korea, China, any other foe?  There's a difference between being peaceful and trying to avoid foreign entanglements and cowering from those who threaten you.

I prefer we don't strike, as that would leave the unintended consequences out of the equation.  I'm glad Trump is giving this a chance to play out and hope they either give up the program or the regime is toppled from within.  I don't think either is the likely outcome, but we need to give it a chance.  But if all else fails, I agree we should not let them have nukes.  At least with the North Korean regime they are self interested and use them as a threat to stay in power.  In Iran, you are dealing with religious zealots who don't care if they die as long as they take us with them.

[jerryskids 6,726]

1 hour ago, Ron_Artest said:

Murdering Iranians is not peace.

There is a middle ground between slaughter and sack cuddling but it's too nuanced for you to understand.

Murder? You aren't a serious poster.  Israel could bomb any population center they want, but they don't. They also warn a city if they are taking out a military target near there.

Iran is indiscriminately launching missiles at cities.

Acknowledge this or I'm done. You havent said a bad thing about Iran in all this.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,265]

Iran was responsible for the 1983 bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut that killed 241 of our guys. You can forget that if you want, but some of us don’t. I still don’t forgive Reagan for pussing out after that. 

[Ron_Artest 1,330]

13 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Murder? You aren't a serious poster.  Israel could bomb any population center they want, but they don't. They also warn a city if they are taking out a military target near there.

Iran is indiscriminately launching missiles at cities.

Acknowledge this or I'm done. You havent said a bad thing about Iran in all this.

Iran is a state sponsor of terror.  Please don't go there with the "you love Iran" BS.  Not even part of the equation.  The decision is do we start a war with Iran.  I'm against that.  I hope trump is against that as well.  We need less war.

[HellToupee 1,712]

Iran has attacked US troops 83 times since Biden became president
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/iran-attacks-us-military-iraq-syria-biden/

this is from 2023 . Screw ‘em

[Gepetto 1,353]

Israel can hit ALL of Iran's Nuclear sites per Netanyahu. In that case, I definitely say the US should stay out.

 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,265]

24 minutes ago, Gepetto said:

Israel can hit ALL of Iran's Nuclear sites per Netanyahu. In that case, I definitely say the US should stay out.

 

Nah. They need to know. 

[SUXBNME 1,482]

2 hours ago, jerryskids said:

Murder? You aren't a serious poster.  Israel could bomb any population center they want, but they don't. They also warn a city if they are taking out a military target near there.

Iran is indiscriminately launching missiles at cities.

Acknowledge this or I'm done. You havent said a bad thing about Iran in all this.

We really need a guttercat emoji here..

I can't find the pic anymore

[Frozenbeernuts 2,235]

Weird how the three people who were the most right about bitcoin/crypto are also wary of Israel.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,265]

Hate Israel and Jews all you want. But there is a choice to be made here. Make it. It shouldn’t be difficult. 

[listen2me 23 1,850]

Unless some agreement comes fairly soon the US will strike Iran.  You all understand that right?  I dont believe this is much of a question.  

Whats my position?  I guess im really not sure.  I think Israel should try to take out as many nuclear operations as possible then back off.  But Israel is sort of crazy and you cant blame them.  They have Iran backed terrorists to the north, west, and the Houthis out in the east.  If America had that setup we would be aggressive as well.  But Israel really doesnt fock around and never has.   They dont go do stuff half ass.  When they go they go.  

But my prediction is the US does get involved and I would almost guarantee it unless it plays out much differently than it seems like it will thus far. 

War sucks period.   Perhaps if they didnt chant death to Israel death to America all the time then it wouldnt be as dire.  If Iran had any sense they wouldnt do that and just be the snake in the grass.  When you keep saying you want to wipe Israel off the map and then up enriching your uranium to wild levels that is beyond domestic use, then yea.  People put 2 and 2 together and want to stop it before its too late.  

[MDC 7,285]

If we do strike Iran, the silver lining will be my amusement when the board righties start channeling D1ck Cheney on the need for “regime change.”

[Hardcore troubadour 15,265]

Regime change via bombing the Fock out of them and sending in troops for years is a bit different. Simple Jack’s attempt to sell it as the same is a clumsy attempt at gotcha.  Pathetic. 

[thegeneral 3,121]

Two weeks! There are many more.

[Ron_Artest 1,330]

37 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

Two weeks! There are many more.

Jerry says this is art of the deal

[BrahmaBulls 659]

42 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

Two weeks! There are many more.

Gutter will beat off to this all weekend

[The Real timschochet 6,636]

44 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Regime change via bombing the Fock out of them and sending in troops for years is a bit different. Simple Jack’s attempt to sell it as the same is a clumsy attempt at gotcha.  Pathetic. 

You seem to believe that we can just bomb the crap out of Iran and then it’s over, end of story, end of our involvement and we don’t have to concern ourselves with Iran any longer. That’s incredibly dumb and short sided. 

[Ron_Artest 1,330]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

That’s incredibly dumb and short sided. 

That's Maga

[Hardcore troubadour 15,265]

13 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

You seem to believe that we can just bomb the crap out of Iran and then it’s over, end of story, end of our involvement and we don’t have to concern ourselves with Iran any longer. That’s incredibly dumb and short sided. 

Yeah, the pandering has worked out much better. What’s the opposite of short sighted? That’s what your guys have been doing I guess. Meanwhile Iran does what it wants , including killing our people and our allies. Remember all the talk about allies in Ukraine? I guess that doesn’t rate here. Khaddafi gave up his nukes and Obama still bombed him to death. But that was ok. Care to tell us why he did that? Nah. No need. Your guy is always on the side of good. Short sighted. Obama is the king. 

[Ron_Artest 1,330]

Bro voted for Obama.  Twice!

[Hardcore troubadour 15,265]

5 minutes ago, Ron_Artest said:

Bro voted for Obama.  Twice!

Only you get to change your mind about politicians you voted for. What a moron.

[Ron_Artest 1,330]

2 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Only you get to change your mind about politicians you voted for. What a moron.

Twice!

[GobbleDog 991]

2 hours ago, listen2me 23 said:

Perhaps if they didnt chant death to Israel death to America all the time then it wouldnt be as dire.  If Iran had any sense they wouldnt do that and just be the snake in the grass.  

I don't think that's your average Iranian.  Most Iranians are cultured and educated. Unlike Palestinians, Afganistans, Iraqi's, etc.  If the current Iran regime collapsed and average/moderate Iranians took power, I think they'd impress.  

I'm not saying we should or shouldn't get involved...  complex issue. But, they aren't Middle Eastern scum like you'd assume. I imagine many would love to see their authoritarian government removed. 

[The Real timschochet 6,636]

1 hour ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Yeah, the pandering has worked out much better. What’s the opposite of short sighted? That’s what your guys have been doing I guess. Meanwhile Iran does what it wants , including killing our people and our allies. Remember all the talk about allies in Ukraine? I guess that doesn’t rate here. Khaddafi gave up his nukes and Obama still bombed him to death. But that was ok. Care to tell us why he did that? Nah. No need. Your guy is always on the side of good. Short sighted. Obama is the king. 

You completely ignored my point or refused to respond to it. I certainly don't ageee with your analysis of Obama but what’s the use of debating his actions now? My accusation was that you think we can just bomb Iran and walk away. Let me offer you a bunch of reasons we can’t: 

1. Iran could close the Strait of Hormuz. That would force us to invade to protect Saudi Arabia. 

2. Iran may have sleeper terrorist cells in this country or elsewhere ready to strike Americans.

3. China gets most of its oil from Iran. Do you think it can afford to allow a destabilizing of Iran’s regime, any more than we could afford the same to Saudi Arabia? 

4. Russia is pledged to the military defense of Iran. So far they have been quiet with Israel attacking. Will they stay quiet if we attack? Who knows? 
 

NONE of this is an argument against bombing. Maybe we should. Maybe we should wait. I have no idea. I suspect very strongly that Trump doesn’t either. But for you to act like the internet tough guy and pretend we can just do this without any consequences is so asinine and so stupid, it’s amazing even for you. 

[The Real timschochet 6,636]

43 minutes ago, GobbleDog said:

  Most Iranians are cultured and educated. Unlike Palestinians, Afganistans, Iraqi's, etc.  

I was curious about this because I suspected you were right. You mostly are: 

Literacy rate: 

Iran: 90%
Iraq: 20%
Afghanistan: 40%

But you’re wrong, to my surprise, about Palestine: there the literacy rate is 97%!!

It’s important also to note that Iranians, unlike most of the Middle East, are not Arabic. They are in fact the original Aryans. And their resentment against the USA goes back decades (ever since the CIA overthrew their democratically elected President, Mossedagh, and installed the Shah.) 

These distinctions are important because too many Americans, like @Hardcore troubadour and, I strongly suspect, our President, know nothing about the history, nothing about the differences between Iranian and Arab or Sunni and Shia, and nothing about the geopolitical complexities of the situation. Which is both pathetic and scary as hell.