Jump to content



Photo

Steel and Aluminum Tariffs (Good or bad?)


  • Please log in to reply
159 replies to this topic

#1 mobb_deep

mobb_deep

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 18,781 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 12:32 PM

I see a few people have touched lightly on this topic, in some other threads. Admittedly, I know very little about this, and was hoping to get some good conversation and understand the pros and cons a bit better...

 

Here is what I have learned from the research i've done:
  • Free trade is generally positive in the short term, but can have long term negative implications.
  • Tariffs can be used to correct imbalances created from policies that were good in the short term but led to excess imbalance in the long term.
  • The US produces around 70% of our own Steel. The rest comes from Canada, South Korea, Brazil and a few others.
  • By taxing these imports, the goal is to help protect the jobs of the 140,000 Americans who work in this industry.
  • But, it could have negative consequences, as the automotive, aerospace and construction sectors will face higher prices.
  • George W. Bush. imposed a tariff of 30 percent on steel imports in 2002. But the move backfired as thousands of American steelworkers lost their jobs.
  • The EU is saying they will retaliate, which could cause a full blown trade war (not sure if that's good or bad?)
  • The energy industry, and as an extension lobbyists, seem to be against this?
Did I miss anything. What say you all?

 

 

 


Sangre Por Sangre


#2 Hardcore troubadour

Hardcore troubadour

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 31,008 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 12:38 PM

American cars in europe and asia are rare. They are common in the US. Our tariff on those imports are very low. The tariffs on our exports are very high. Not fair, not competitive. Why wouldn't we even up the playing field? Because Wall Street won't like it ?

#3 wiffleball

wiffleball

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 63,285 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 12:47 PM

Bad.
Users currently on :ignore: BudBro,Flahawker

#4 NorthernVike

NorthernVike

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 34,358 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 12:56 PM

Bad.


Good

Being an ass hole is all part of my manly essence

 

 



You guys have no focking clue what happened so you really should just shut it..

 


#5 MTSkiBum

MTSkiBum

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 12,536 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 12:57 PM

American cars in europe and asia are rare. They are common in the US. Our tariff on those imports are very low. The tariffs on our exports are very high. Not fair, not competitive. Why wouldn't we even up the playing field? Because Wall Street won't like it ?

 

GM has a larger market share in asia than toyota and in general American car companies do quite well overseas.


Steeler's Fan

#6 mobb_deep

mobb_deep

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 18,781 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 12:58 PM

Good

 

Ugly


Sangre Por Sangre


#7 Hardcore troubadour

Hardcore troubadour

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 31,008 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 01:03 PM

 
GM has a larger market share in asia than toyota and in general American car companies do quite well overseas.

Because China makes them produce them in China. Just like Boeing. And you won't find many American cars in Japan or S Korea, but they are abundant here.

#8 tanatastic

tanatastic

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 20,541 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 01:05 PM

What are the pros and cons?

#9 NorthernVike

NorthernVike

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 34,358 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 01:06 PM

 
Ugly


The

Being an ass hole is all part of my manly essence

 

 



You guys have no focking clue what happened so you really should just shut it..

 


#10 Mike Honcho

Mike Honcho

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 12,972 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 01:08 PM

I see a few people have touched lightly on this topic, in some other threads. Admittedly, I know very little about this, and was hoping to get some good conversation and understand the pros and cons a bit better...
 
Here is what I have learned from the research i've done:

  • Free trade is generally positive in the short term, but can have long term negative implications.
  • Tariffs can be used to correct imbalances created from policies that were good in the short term but led to excess imbalance in the long term.
  • The US produces around 70% of our own Steel. The rest comes from Canada, South Korea, Brazil and a few others.
  • By taxing these imports, the goal is to help protect the jobs of the 140,000 Americans who work in this industry.
  • But, it could have negative consequences, as the automotive, aerospace and construction sectors will face higher prices.
  • George W. Bush. imposed a tariff of 30 percent on steel imports in 2002. But the move backfired as thousands of American steelworkers lost their jobs.
  • The EU is saying they will retaliate, which could cause a full blown trade war (not sure if that's good or bad?)
  • The energy industry, and as an extension lobbyists, seem to be against this?
Did I miss anything. What say you all?

Pretty sure by typing this out, you put more thought into than the President.

#11 MTSkiBum

MTSkiBum

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 12,536 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 01:09 PM

What are the pros and cons?

 

Sticking with the cars example it will reduce our ability to compete on a global market.

 

For example compare Chevy manufactured in US verse Toyota manufactured in japan and sold to a 3rd country. With tariffs implemented the cost will go up for Chevy, but the costs for Toyota will remain the same. This will make Chevy less competitive in a global economy and will cause Toyota to gain market share over Chevy.

 

I feel that tariffs will hurt more industries than they help.


Steeler's Fan

#12 mobb_deep

mobb_deep

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 18,781 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 01:13 PM

Because China makes them produce them in China. Just like Boeing. And you won't find many American cars in Japan or S Korea, but they are abundant here.

 

 

And from what I understand, China is also flooding the market with cheap scrap, as their own domestic needs have slowed. This is making it especially hard for the US to compete, even though we don't import too much steel directly from China.

 

 

What are the pros and cons?

 

At a high level, the pro is domestic jobs and sector growth, as using imported steel/aluminum will be more costly. The con would be the costs of goods being passed on to consumers, and a loss of jobs and profit margins for companies that depend on the industry (automative/aerospace/etc). That's how I understand it so far. 

 

Does anyone know what went wrong when Bush did the same thing in 2002? What is different this time?


Sangre Por Sangre


#13 Filthy Fernadez

Filthy Fernadez

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 21,175 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 01:27 PM

https://theconservat...uminum-tariffs/

Is this an effort to stop China from avoiding tariffs by using NAFTA?

BBC for the most part is pretty damn good.


#14 Hardcore troubadour

Hardcore troubadour

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 31,008 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 01:30 PM

https://theconservat...uminum-tariffs/

Is this an effort to stop China from avoiding tariffs by using NAFTA?


Trump knows what he's doing. Sorry if Wall Steeet doesn't like it.

#15 Baker Boy

Baker Boy

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 4,741 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 01:33 PM

American cars in europe and asia are rare. They are common in the US. Our tariff on those imports are very low. The tariffs on our exports are very high. Not fair, not competitive. Why wouldn't we even up the playing field? Because Wall Street won't like it ?


Tariffs on cars

2.5% USA
10% EU
25% China

#16 Hardcore troubadour

Hardcore troubadour

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 31,008 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 01:36 PM

Tariffs on cars

2.5% USA
10% EU
25% China


There you have it.

#17 mobb_deep

mobb_deep

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 18,781 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 02:01 PM

Tariffs on cars

2.5% USA
10% EU
25% China

 

I'm trying to understand what is different now than in 2002, that tariffs will be successful this time around. Do you have any insight on that? This is what I read on Time earlier.

 

http://time.com/5180...luminum-tariff/

 

 

In 2002 Bush enacted a tariff of 8% to 30% on foreign steel arguing that the U.S. steel industry was hurt by a surge in imports from overseas. The Bush Administration knew the move would draw sharp critiques with U.S. Trade Representative Robert Zoellick telling TIME at the time that “the Europeans will scream.” Nonetheless the Bush White House calculated that the benefits of helping steelworkers outweighed the cost of angering allies and potentially driving up the price of consumer goods. Bush had promised during his campaign to pay attention to the Rust Belt and a tariff was seen as a way of helping curry support with voters in the region.
 
But the imposition of tariffs set off a chain reaction. The European Union responded with tariffs of its own and a number of countries disputed the tariffs at the World Trade Organization. Less than a year after the announced tariffs, the WTO ultimately ruled that the U.S. had violated international trade agreements by imposing the tariffs, opening the door for sanctions and retaliation.
 
And, in fact, the European Union ended up hitting Bush where it hurt. The bloc planned tariffs on a wide range of products, including many produced in key swing states where job losses could hurt Bush’s chances of re-election. In late 2003, Bush reversed the sanctions in a move that would be branded as a flip flop.

Sangre Por Sangre


#18 Hardcore troubadour

Hardcore troubadour

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 31,008 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 02:04 PM

I would say Wall Street and the banks got him to change his mind. I'm just guessing though, but I'd bet on it.

#19 Sho Nuff

Sho Nuff

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 59,525 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 02:39 PM

Historically have been bad and most economists agree...so Im going to go with bad.

#20 iam90sbaby

iam90sbaby

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 6,336 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 02:42 PM

Historically have been bad and most economists agree...so Im going to go with bad.

 

Translation: I read an article that referenced a tariff in the past that was bad for the country and the economists that CNN handpicked agreed that it was a bad move. 



#21 Hardcore troubadour

Hardcore troubadour

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 31,008 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 02:47 PM

 
Translation: I read an article that referenced a tariff in the past that was bad for the country and the economists that CNN handpicked agreed that it was a bad move. 

Yeah, because high tariffs on our exports and low tariffs on their imports is good for American workers. It's worked out so well. Eye roll

#22 Filthy Fernadez

Filthy Fernadez

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 21,175 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 02:49 PM

Historically have been bad and most economists agree...so Im going to go with bad.

 

Translation:

 

Trump idea = Bad


BBC for the most part is pretty damn good.


#23 Hardcore troubadour

Hardcore troubadour

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 31,008 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 02:57 PM

 
Translation:
 
Trump idea = Bad


That's about the extent of their analysis. Some guy on CNN said....../

#24 Sho Nuff

Sho Nuff

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 59,525 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 03:10 PM

 
Translation: I read an article that referenced a tariff in the past that was bad for the country and the economists that CNN handpicked agreed that it was a bad move. 


Wrong...as usual.

#25 Mike Honcho

Mike Honcho

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 12,972 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 03:40 PM

Translation: I read an article that referenced a tariff in the past that was bad for the country and the economists that CNN handpicked agreed that it was a bad move.


Still that would be more research than you typically do on any subject.

#26 Cdub100

Cdub100

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 22,227 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 03:49 PM

When it comes to business trump is 100% right. America first.


“for family, for freedom, for country, and for God” - President Donald J. Trump

 


#27 Baker Boy

Baker Boy

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 4,741 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 03:51 PM

In 2009 President Obama imposed a 35 percent tariff on car tires imported from China and no one talked about it.

#28 iam90sbaby

iam90sbaby

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 6,336 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 03:51 PM

Still that would be more research than you typically do on any subject.

 

Shut up ya homo.



#29 Alias Detective

Alias Detective

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 3,128 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 03:54 PM

Historically have been bad and most economists agree...so Im going to go with bad.

  

Translation: I read an article that referenced a tariff in the past that was bad for the country and the economists that CNN handpicked agreed that it was a bad move.

  

Wrong...as usual.


They nailed you to the wall, Stud.

#30 Sho Nuff

Sho Nuff

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 59,525 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 03:54 PM

When it comes to business trump is 100% right. America first.


:lol:

#31 Sho Nuff

Sho Nuff

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 59,525 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 03:55 PM

    
They nailed you to the wall, Stud.


Wat?

#32 Baker Boy

Baker Boy

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 4,741 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 03:56 PM

Historically have been bad and most economists agree...so Im going to go with bad.


And who are these economists that believe high tariffs on our exports and low or no tariffs on our imports is good for the American economy?

#33 tanatastic

tanatastic

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 20,541 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 03:59 PM

Just googled it and basically everyone is mad and every industry hates it. Why is it good? Why was it done? What the hell even is a tariff?

https://www.vox.com/...iffs-businesses

#34 Sho Nuff

Sho Nuff

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 59,525 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 04:05 PM

Just googled it and basically everyone is mad and every industry hates it. Why is it good? Why was it done? What the hell even is a tariff?

https://www.vox.com/...iffs-businesses


Apparently because CNN.
I mean...people who claim to be conservatives are now abandoning yet another one of their former principles to support tariffs.
Its no longer a party...supporting Trump is a cult.

#35 tanatastic

tanatastic

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 20,541 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 04:10 PM

Apparently because CNN.
I mean...people who claim to be conservatives are now abandoning yet another one of their former principles to support tariffs.
Its no longer a party...supporting Trump is a cult.

This is the impression I get as well. If he says it, they retroactively act like they were always behind it from the start. It’s pretty scary really.

#36 IGotWorms

IGotWorms

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 52,326 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 04:22 PM

Its the whole problem with the stupid America First mantra.

We live in a globalized world now.

Dont like it? Too focking bad. Might as well complain about how the horse and buggy days were better.

So yeah, it reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the way things are. Theres no victory here, even if you win the battle (you wont) youre definitely losing the war.

#37 tanatastic

tanatastic

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 20,541 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 04:25 PM

Its the whole problem with the stupid America First mantra.
We live in a globalized world now.
Dont like it? Too focking bad. Might as well complain about how the horse and buggy days were better.
So yeah, it reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the way things are. Theres no victory here, even if you win the battle (you wont) youre definitely losing the war.

“We must bring back coal!”

WHY?!

#38 Hardcore troubadour

Hardcore troubadour

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 31,008 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 04:26 PM

This is the impression I get as well. If he says it, they retroactively act like they were always behind it from the start. Its pretty scary really.


He campaigned on it. Those of us that paid attention know this. Not sure what Gary Johnson had to say about it, and neither do his voters. Lol.

#39 Hardcore troubadour

Hardcore troubadour

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 31,008 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 04:28 PM

Its the whole problem with the stupid America First mantra.

We live in a globalized world now.

Dont like it? Too focking bad. Might as well complain about how the horse and buggy days were better.

So yeah, it reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the way things are. Theres no victory here, even if you win the battle (you wont) youre definitely losing the war.

We live in a system controlled by Oligharchs. Don't like it? Too fockin bad. Get in line and shaddup. It's the way it is.

#40 tanatastic

tanatastic

    FF Geek

  • Members
  • 20,541 posts

Posted 05 March 2018 - 04:32 PM

He campaigned on it. Those of us that paid attention know this. Not sure what Gary Johnson had to say about it, and neither do his voters. Lol.


That brings me back to before the election where a vast majority of geeks were behind Gary J or Kasich. Almost zero behind Hilary and even those who were did it begrudgingly.