Since today is the "Day w/out Immigrants"...

[davebg 0]

So, w/all of the news coverage over the weekend in anticipation of a day w/out immigrants...I got to thinking.

 

One of the biggest arguments that people have in favor of all of these illegal immigrants is that they perform jobs that "regular" Americans (citizens) wouldn't want...b/c it is menial labor and/or a low wage. On the surface, it is an argument that I think has some merit.

 

HOWEVER, what happens if/when we give amnesty/citizenship to these illegal immigrants?

 

The only reason that they have been willing to accept such jobs at such low wages w/no benefits is b/c they have had no choice. They are illegally in the country and have to take what they can get...it's not like they can go to the authorities if they are taken advantage of or like they can organize their labor force into a union that will protect their rights.

 

If these people are given citizenship or officially authorized to work in the US how long will they continue to accept working menial jobs for low wages and no benefits? Probably not too long.

 

Now, don't get me wrong...I am not saying that I am in favor of exploiting a particular group of people. However, if we are going to have an open national debate on the subject, then these are the types of things that need to be discussed. You can't make the argument that these illegal aliens provide cheap, necessary labor for the economy w/out acknowledging that by making these illegals into legal workers they likely won't continue to accept the types of conditions that make them such a benefit to the country's economy.

[RLLD 4,282]

I will say this, its quiet as hell outside today, no leaf blowers at all

[Strike 6,032]

So, w/all of the news coverage over the weekend in anticipation of a day w/out immigrants...I got to thinking.

 

One of the biggest arguments that people have in favor of all of these illegal immigrants is that they perform jobs that "regular" Americans (citizens) wouldn't want...b/c it is menial labor and/or a low wage. On the surface, it is an argument that I think has some merit.

 

HOWEVER, what happens if/when we give amnesty/citizenship to these illegal immigrants?

 

The only reason that they have been willing to accept such jobs at such low wages w/no benefits is b/c they have had no choice. They are illegally in the country and have to take what they can get...it's not like they can go to the authorities if they are taken advantage of or like they can organize their labor force into a union that will protect their rights.

 

If these people are given citizenship or officially authorized to work in the US how long will they continue to accept working menial jobs for low wages and no benefits? Probably not too long.

 

Now, don't get me wrong...I am not saying that I am in favor of exploiting a particular group of people. However, if we are going to have an open national debate on the subject, then these are the types of things that need to be discussed. You can't make the argument that these illegal aliens provide cheap, necessary labor for the economy w/out acknowledging that by making these illegals into legal workers they likely won't continue to accept the types of conditions that make them such a benefit to the country's economy.

 

What's to discuss? Every time the topic of amnesty is even mentioned the number of immigrants coming across the border illegally goes up. We simply encourage more to come every time we go through this exercise.

[30 Fat, Bald & Texan 5]

I will say this, its quiet as hell outside today, no leaf blowers at all

My lawn is not getting mowed today and the maid isn't coming over

 

The traffic is still the same becasue they are such good car poolers

[mighty_thor 115]

If these people are given citizenship or officially authorized to work in the US how long will they continue to accept working menial jobs for low wages and no benefits? Probably not too long.

 

I think they would accept the menial job because that is all they would be qualified for. They are working for their children and it is unlikely that their children would accept menial jobs. This is the way immigration has worked for ages. My ancestors came over here in the 1860's and worked at menial jobs and made a better life for their future generations. The only thing different with most of these Mexicans is that they are not allowed to enter legally like my ancestors were.

[RLLD 4,282]

My lawn is not getting mowed today and the maid isn't coming over

 

The traffic is still the same becasue they are such good car poolers

 

 

Well, I can tell you that my wife wont be getting any flowers or fresh fruit from me tonight....

[Strike 6,032]

I think they would accept the menial job because that is all they would be qualified for. They are working for their children and it is unlikely that their children would accept menial jobs. This is the way immigration has worked for ages. My ancestors came over here in the 1860's and worked at menial jobs and made a better life for their future generations. The only thing different with most of these Mexicans is that they are not allowed to enter legally like my ancestors were.

 

Sure they can enter legally. We haven't stopped accepting legal immigrants. They can apply for a Visa just like anyone else. They choose not to.

[davebg 0]

I think they would accept the menial job because that is all they would be qualified for. They are working for their children and it is unlikely that their children would accept menial jobs. This is the way immigration has worked for ages. My ancestors came over here in the 1860's and worked at menial jobs and made a better life for their future generations. The only thing different with most of these Mexicans is that they are not allowed to enter legally like my ancestors were.

For the most part, I think you are right in that they will continue to accept these menial jobs b/c they may not be qualified for anything else. While I'm sure there are instances of people who were doctors in their native countries, only to be dishwashers in the US b/c they can't practice medicine due to their status as illegals, I'd wager that is more the exception than the rule.

 

However, if they are now legal, thent he employers will need to start paying taxable, minimum wage and offering at least the minimum of benefits. Furthermore, you KNOW they will organize and go the union route.

 

Thus, this "cheap" labor will become every bit as expensive as it would have been to get legal workers to do it.

[Voltaire 5,522]

Sure they can enter legally. We haven't stopped accepting legal immigrants. They can apply for a Visa just like anyone else. They choose not to.

 

Visas can get rejected. Happens all the time. The swim, run, hide method is far more effective.

[mighty_thor 115]

Sure they can enter legally. We haven't stopped accepting legal immigrants. They can apply for a Visa just like anyone else. They choose not to.

 

You can't get into the country like you used to be able to. It is way harder. 99% of these illegals would not be permitted into this country if they applied.

 

My mother-in-law cannot even get a visitors visa to visit her daughter and grandchild. She has been rejected 3 times by the us embassy in the philippines. Its extremely difficult to even visit here from a poor country.

[Ravens 03 0]

Visas can get rejected. Happens all the time. The swim, run, hide method is far more effective.

 

Doesn't seem like 'hide' is even needed once you are here.

[Strike 6,032]

Visas can get rejected. Happens all the time. The swim, run, hide method is far more effective.

 

That's the risk you take trying to do things legally. My boss is Irish and met his wife on the Internet. It took him 3-4 years to get a Visa to come here so he could get married. It's unfair that people can take a shortcut route and simply walk across the border.

[MDC 8,069]

One of the biggest arguments that people have in favor of all of these illegal immigrants is that they perform jobs that "regular" Americans (citizens) wouldn't want...b/c it is menial labor and/or a low wage.

 

Americans might be willing to take those jobs if they paid at or better than the minimum wage and came with some benefits - maybe they would, if employers weren't exploiting illegal Mexicans for cheap labor.

[Strike 6,032]

You can't get into the country like you used to be able to. It is way harder. 99% of these illegals would not be permitted into this country if they applied.

 

My mother-in-law cannot even get a visitors visa to visit her daughter and grandchild. She has been rejected 3 times by the us embassy in the philippines. Its extremely difficult to even visit here from a poor country.

 

So you're basing your whole argument on one person?

[mighty_thor 115]

For the most part, I think you are right in that they will continue to accept these menial jobs b/c they may not be qualified for anything else. While I'm sure there are instances of people who were doctors in their native countries, only to be dishwashers in the US b/c they can't practice medicine due to their status as illegals, I'd wager that is more the exception than the rule.

 

However, if they are now legal, thent he employers will need to start paying taxable, minimum wage and offering at least the minimum of benefits. Furthermore, you KNOW they will organize and go the union route.

 

Thus, this "cheap" labor will become every bit as expensive as it would have been to get legal workers to do it.

 

The lawn guys and nannies around me make minimum wage. Maybe some of the dishwashers don't make minimum wage but raising their wages to minimum would not raise prices too much imo.

[NewbieJr 541]

With so many Mexicans taking the day off and sitting home doing nothing, do you think the blacks are pissed at them for stealing their shtick?

[Ravens 03 0]

Americans might be willing to take those jobs if they paid at or better than the minimum wage and came with some benefits - maybe they would, if employers weren't exploiting illegal Mexicans for cheap labor.

 

I did those jobs when I was in college [many do them now in HS for part-time work].

 

Entry level work. Starter job. Part-time 2nd job. Etc.

[mighty_thor 115]

So you're basing your whole argument on one person?

 

No, i am basing it on facts. Unskilled labor is not welcome in this country. Most of the legal immigrants that come in are skilled. Nurses are especially welcome. My wife knows plenty of people who would love to work in the us doing anything. But its impossible to get a Visa.

[Jeff Garcia 8]

I like your play on words. People who support them always forget to put the word "illegal" into the equation.

 

With so many Mexicans taking the day off and sitting home doing nothing, do you think the blacks are pissed at them for stealing their shtick?

[D'ohmer Simpson 0]

With so many Mexicans taking the day off and sitting home doing nothing, do you think the blacks are pissed at them for stealing their shtick?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GobbleDog 1,018]

But its impossible to get a Visa.

 

Sorry about that. But that doesn't justify entering the country illegaly.

[Strike 6,032]

No, i am basing it on facts. Unskilled labor is not welcome in this country. Most of the legal immigrants that come in are skilled. Nurses are especially welcome. My wife knows plenty of people who would love to work in the us doing anything. But its impossible to get a Visa.

 

Yeah, that's why they cross the border illegally. They tried to get a Visa and were denied . Did I mention that it took my boss years to get a Visa to come here?

 

Sorry about that. But that doesn't justify entering the country illegaly.

 

Yeah, I mean if some of these illegal immigrant apologists wanted to make this issue part of a larger discussion on serious immigration reform I'd be glad to entertain it. However, they don't. I've asked this on numerous occasions but the attitude is always "just let them in" with nothing that deals with the other issues illegal immigration brings. So I don't take this attitude seriously anymore.

[mighty_thor 115]

Yeah, I mean if some of these illegal immigrant apologists wanted to make this issue part of a larger discussion on serious immigration reform I'd be glad to entertain it. However, they don't. I've asked this on numerous occasions but the attitude is always "just let them in" with nothing that deals with the other issues illegal immigration brings. So I don't take this attitude seriously anymore.

 

BTW, I am in favor of reform. I can sympathize with the illegals and the reasons they broke the law but the real solution is reform. As I stated above, I don't think wages of legal immigrants would be much more than the illegals. Most of them would be happy with minimum wage.

 

Sorry about that. But that doesn't justify entering the country illegaly.

 

I never said it did

[davebg 0]

As I stated above, I don't think wages of legal immigrants would be much more than the illegals. Most of them would be happy with minimum wage.

Higher wage + employers paying taxes on said wages + increased insurance/liability converage (you don't have to worry about covering someone who is not on your books) + benefits = higher costs

 

As for them being happy w/minimum wage...maybe at first, but not for long. Once they are legal they can organize...once organized they can begin to make demands. I mean, just take a look at some of the menial labor jobs that are unionized and look at what kind of wages they get. Garbagemen? Transit workers? These are unskilled workers who collect the trash and open/close a focking train door and they can easily be making as much or more than much more important and skilled labor (such as teachers, police and firemen.)

[Toro 3]

Why doesn't Mexico have a good Olympic team?

 

Because everyone that can run, jump or swim is already across the border.

[Apu Nahasapeemapetilon 0]

With so many Mexicans taking the day off and sitting home doing nothing, do you think the blacks are pissed at them for stealing their shtick?

 

 

 

[Isotopes 1]

If we cracked down on illegal immigrants we could allow more legal immigrants into the country. We are denying people who want to get into the country the right way because millions decided to get in the easy way and our country does nothing about it.

[MDC 8,069]

Higher wage + employers paying taxes on said wages + increased insurance/liability converage (you don't have to worry about covering someone who is not on your books) + benefits = higher costs

 

How much more do you really think consumers are going to spend on agriculture or eating out? Fock those employers - they have a legal and a moral responsibility to hire legal help and pay taxes and a minimum wage. Employers who knowingly exploit illegals should serve jail time.

[davebg 0]

How much more do you really think consumers are going to spend on agriculture or eating out? Fock those employers - they have a legal and a moral responsibility to hire legal help and pay taxes and a minimum wage. Employers who knowingly exploit illegals should serve jail time.

Your post makes no sense.

 

On the one hand you want employers to start using legal help, which would inevitably result in higher prices for consumer goods.

 

Then you talk about how consumers are going to be unwilling to spend more on those same consumer goods.

 

Which is it?

[Strike 6,032]

I was recently in Australia for almost a month. I didn't see anyone I would call "illegal" working in their restaurants. They were all your typical aussie chicks and stuff. And did you know they don't even tip over there? Their minimum wage is much higher than ours and people can make ends meet without tipping. Tipping isn't expected in any business - not restaurants, not cabs, not anything. They're starting to see a little big of tipping but it's insignificant at this point. And yet somehow the prices of eating out aren't really any higher than they are here. Makes you wonder if this whole "we'll be paying 10x more for everything if we get rid of the illegals" argument isn't just a bunch of BS.....

[George Carlin 1]

The traffic is still the same becasue they are such good car poolers

 

Reggie White, that you?

[Electric Mayhem 35]

Wait until they all find out that sub-minimum cash under the table > taxed minimum wages.

[shovelheadt 72]

Indy must not be participating because I had no problem getting my steak, egg and cheese sammich at McDonalds this morning.

[Riddlen 1]

This is the first I have heard of this. Is it a joke?

 

there was messican mowing the lawn at work today

[shovelheadt 72]

This is the first I have heard of this. Is it a joke?

 

there was messican mowing the lawn at work today

 

Not a joke..other than the total participation.

[MDC 8,069]

Your post makes no sense.

 

On the one hand you want employers to start using legal help, which would inevitably result in higher prices for consumer goods.

 

Then you talk about how consumers are going to be unwilling to spend more on those same consumer goods.

 

Which is it?

 

First of all, you make the assumption that legal help = higher costs. I'm not sure I agree with that. My point is that employers will eat the costs, because consumers are only willing to pay a certain amount on some goods they expect to get for cheap - for example produce or fast food.

 

"Higher costs" is a lame reason to not force employers to pay taxes and obey the law. We have a minimum wage and it is their responsibility to pay it. If that means I spend a nickel more on every head of lettuce I buy, so be it.

[torridjoe 48]

No, i am basing it on facts. Unskilled labor is not welcome in this country. Most of the legal immigrants that come in are skilled. Nurses are especially welcome. My wife knows plenty of people who would love to work in the us doing anything. But its impossible to get a Visa.

 

a sizeable chunk--anywhere from 25-40% of the "illegal immigrants"--got visas just fine.

[Evil number 0]

a sizeable chunk--anywhere from 25-40% of the "illegal immigrants"--got visas just fine.

 

I don't understand what you are saying. link to a story or explain.

[torridjoe 48]

I don't understand what you are saying. link me to a story or explain.

 

Anywhere from 25-40% of the people in this country illegally entered on valid visas, not sneaking across the border.

[Strike 6,032]

I don't understand what you are saying. link me to a story or explain.

 

I think he's talking about the chunk that got visas, came here, and never left even when their visas expired. It's another irrelevant Torridmuhammad tangent but hey that's what he's here for

 

Indy must not be participating because I had no problem getting my steak, egg and cheese sammich at McDonalds this morning.

 

You paid twice as much as normal though, right?