Selling our house

[jerryskids 7,083]

After much emotional wrangling and discussion, the wife and I have decided to sell our house. It is primarily a financial move, as it is already expensive and our ARM payment goes up $700 in a few months. This will be the first time we've ever taken a step down in house.

 

The wife views this as a life failure and is taking it quite poorly. We had one of "those" conversations yesterday. Married geeks will understand. One of those "we need to sell the house quick I know we can afford it for a long time but it is a lot of money I need a job right away I need to go back to college because I feel incapable to get a job and it bugs me that everyone else in our family has a masters and I feel stoopid but I have no idea what I would get a masters in and I feel like you are annoyed with me lately so I don't feel close to you which is why we don't have sex as often" kinda conversations.

 

I've been married long enough to understand. For one, she loves the house, and I've always been meh about it. Second, and more importantly, she is an engineer by training who has given up her career to stay home with our kids, and she has been itching to get back to work, and she feels that if she were working she would be happier and we wouldn't be in this situation. Which technically is prolly true, but you make the decisions you make given the best info at the time, right?

 

I think the key here is my annoyance at her talk of a masters. She honestly doesn't know what she wants to do, so my attitude is "how can you spend all of the time and money working towards something without an end goal? Also, how do you know you are not qualified for a job if you don't try first." I understand at a certain level that she is afraid to re-enter the workforce and views school as a (psychological if not literal) bridge to doing so. But am I wrong to poo-poo it given the above?

[redtodd 7]

I hope you have learned your lesson to not buy a house over your head.

[CurlyNight 0]

No you aren't wrong to think like that, imo. Is her family somewhat similar to mine, being all highly educated and making other members who aren't in such positions feel bad? That can be a toughy to beat down as I fought with mine for years to try and get the same respect as all the other ones in the fam around my age who are really living it up now.

 

It is true you have to make the best decision for yourselves with what you have in the moment. That's all you can do and is all you have. You can't go by something that may or may not happen later on. I personally don't see selling a larger house to go to a smaller one as a step down, especially since you guys just invested in a rental property not long ago. To me you are stepping up, and making the right decision to ensure financial security for the future. But I can also understand her being attached to a house with the memories that are surely in there. It's an adjustment but one that I think she will come around on and be fine with, if she doesn't have the kind of family that I do, which is one who used to be vocal about their opinions about my choices I've made for myself for my life.

 

GL and best wishes that everything goes smoothly for you!

[jerryskids 7,083]

I hope you have learned your lesson to not buy a house over your head.

There is truth in this. The house has always been more than we could justify with my base. But if you are in sales, it is very hard to just live off of your base. At the time we bought it, the market was flying and I was making a ton in commissions. Since then the market stopped flying, and my company decided they didn't like paying salespeople quite as much. Add to that my current territory (our largest account) is very binary right now; at the end of the year I can make $300K+, or I can be looking for a job, depending on the outcome of our contract talks. We've got plenty put away, but it is very stressful to me.

[spork in the road 2]

Your wife might want to volunteer part-time for a while. It can help her figure what she wants to do and can build up her resume if she's been out of the workforce for a while. In general there is a shortage of engineers so I don't think she needs to get a Masters to get a job. It sounds like that's just a way of avoiding her anxiety.

[jerryskids 7,083]

No you aren't wrong to think like that, imo. Is her family somewhat similar to mine, being all highly educated and making other members who aren't in such positions feel bad? That can be a toughy to beat down as I fought with mine for years to try and get the same respect as all the other ones in the fam around my age who are really living it up now.

 

It is true you have to make the best decision for yourselves with what you have in the moment. That's all you can do and is all you have. You can't go by something that may or may not happen later on. I personally don't see selling a larger house to go to a smaller one as a step down, especially since you guys just invested in a rental property not long ago. To me you are stepping up, and making the right decision to ensure financial security for the future. But I can also understand her being attached to a house with the memories that are surely in there. It's an adjustment but one that I think she will come around on and be fine with, if she doesn't have the kind of family that I do, which is one who used to be vocal about their opinions about my choices I've made for myself for my life.

 

GL and best wishes that everything goes smoothly for you!

Thanks. Her fam is not like that, it is just that myself, her bro, and her SIL all have masters. I think it bugs her the most about her SIL, because she frankly isn't as intelligent as my wife yet has the higher degree. Nobody in her fam has ever given her any grief about choosing to stay home.

 

I think the attachment to the house, other than her genuinely liking it more than me, is the loss of status. We live in an impressive custom neighborhood. A lot of pro athletes, CEOs, etc. are our neighbors. We'll be moving down to a less impressive neighborhood. She likes the Wow factor when people come to visit. I am making her out to be quite the shallow person which isn't fair; in all other things we are very much the "millionaire next door." We don't buy boats, cabins, or other expensive toys. Eat in most nights. I've owned my car 6 years, her 4, and hers for sure we'll drive into the ground.

 

What I am trying to convince her of is that we can get what is still a very nice house in a nice neighborhood, with more kids for ours to play with, and with the money we will net off of it have a very low mortgage.

[CurlyNight 0]

In general there is a shortage of engineers so I don't think she needs to get a Masters to get a job. It sounds like that's just a way of avoiding her anxiety.

I think it depends on what type of engineering she is specialized in. My dad is beyond is PhD in civil engineering and has even won awards for his work overseas as well, but if there are no projects, there is no jobby for him. Engineering is not necessarily the hot degree that it used to be like in the 80s when that was as hot of a major as law and medicine.

[jerryskids 7,083]

Your wife might want to volunteer part-time for a while. It can help her figure what she wants to do and can build up her resume if she's been out of the workforce for a while. In general there is a shortage of engineers so I don't think she needs to get a Masters to get a job. It sounds like that's just a way of avoiding her anxiety.

Bingo. She has been working part time at our taekwondo studio, but there is no money in it and the night hours don't work well. She has always loved teaching; her last engineering job was training to run semiconductor fab SW. Last week she saw a job in the paper where a local company (GoDaddy) was looking for instructors. I'm like, "perfect! Go interview."

Her: "But I'm not qualified."

Me: "Consider it practice then and a learning experience to find out what education, training, whatever you DO need."

Of course nothing came out of it. It is a Venus thing that I just don't get.

[CurlyNight 0]

Bingo. She has been working part time at our taekwondo studio, but there is no money in it and the night hours don't work well. She has always loved teaching; her last engineering job was training to run semiconductor fab SW. Last week she saw a job in the paper where a local company (GoDaddy) was looking for instructors. I'm like, "perfect! Go interview."

Her: "But I'm not qualified."

Me: "Consider it practice then and a learning experience to find out what education, training, whatever you DO need."

Of course nothing came out of it. It is a Venus thing that I just don't get.

That is a tough one, hard to explain. For me if I am generally unhappy I will shut down even the best and most logical advice. I honestly don't see how you can "win" this one except hope that her mood changes. She could be in a slump as well. Hormones are changing now, making some women her age become more prone to becoming just more down than up, and there's nothing much you can do. Some pop pills for this, with a dr watching it of course. Not saying this is it with her at all, but being I'm about her age, I can see this as a possibility as well.

[sawilson 1]

Morning JK. Sorry to hear this is happening, but you are correct that it is a mars/venus thing. In your wife's opinion, because she doesn't have the "degree" or the "job" to justify what/who she is, she has her house that does that for her. She may have been willing to give up the job justification because of the house in the past, but now that you are selling your house, she is thinking "now what do I have - all my family/friends have degrees and nice paying jobs etc, which I already gave up to stay at home, and now I dont' even have my home that I gave it up for."

 

Since she doesn't have her home anymore, she is looking for justification in another area, which, because she is smart, would naturally be her job. And she doesn't even feel as if she can succeed in that because she feels she doesn't have all the tools to do so just like everyone else because she doesn't have that degree - because she already gave that up to stay at home. So the only natural thing for her to jump into is "I need to get my degree" then she will feel like she is worthy again.

 

You can't pretent to understand this, it's a woman's thing really. But what you can do is talk about why she is now looking at getting her degree, without knowing what she wants to do, and why she feels she isn't worthy to get a job elsewhere (it's entirely her self esteem right now JK, you need to play off that). Tell her you understand and you want to make sure she is happy with everything to. Why not sit down with her, talk about what it is she wants to "really" do. Make a list of what makes her happiest in life. Is it teaching karate, is it being educated, what is it that really makes her the happiest when she's doing it (becides you smartarse). Then make a plan from there. In terms of applying for jobs, if this is what she really wants to do, tell her you would have no problem with her going back to school, if she had a plan in mind so you both know time and money was being spent effectively. But also tell her that she's not going to know if she's qualified for something of not, if she doesnt' try. Going back into the work force can be really scary, you need to find a way to make her feel like she is worthy and can do it. Tell her it would all be a learning experience that she could take with her for future endeavors.

 

Also remind her that what the job description says in the paper usually isn't what they are always looking for. The hiring manager usually goes to the HR rep and says he wants to fill this position, and the HR rep writes a nice fancy description to put in the paper, usually with more qualificiations than necesarry (I know, I've done this). And, if she submits her resume, the worst they can do is not call. That's it, they aren't going to call and say "WTF did you send us your resume for", they just won't call. And, if they do call, then she knows she is in fact qualified which could help with her self esteem - because they woudn't spend time to interview her if she weren't qualified.

 

Anyway, sorry for the book but I hope something here helps just a little. Remember, I am dr sawilson after all.

[SUXBNME 1,594]

one word..Cyanide

 

 

HTH

[Thornton Melon 648]

I think it depends on what type of engineering she is specialized in. My dad is beyond is PhD in civil engineering and has even won awards for his work overseas as well, but if there are no projects, there is no jobby for him. Engineering is not necessarily the hot degree that it used to be like in the 80s when that was as hot of a major as law and medicine.

 

She can have my job...

[jerryskids 7,083]

Morning JK. Sorry to hear this is happening, but you are correct that it is a mars/venus thing. In your wife's opinion, because she doesn't have the "degree" or the "job" to justify what/who she is, she has her house that does that for her. She may have been willing to give up the job justification because of the house in the past, but now that you are selling your house, she is thinking "now what do I have - all my family/friends have degrees and nice paying jobs etc, which I already gave up to stay at home, and now I dont' even have my home that I gave it up for."

 

Since she doesn't have her home anymore, she is looking for justification in another area, which, because she is smart, would naturally be her job. And she doesn't even feel as if she can succeed in that because she feels she doesn't have all the tools to do so just like everyone else because she doesn't have that degree - because she already gave that up to stay at home. So the only natural thing for her to jump into is "I need to get my degree" then she will feel like she is worthy again.

 

You can't pretent to understand this, it's a woman's thing really. But what you can do is talk about why she is now looking at getting her degree, without knowing what she wants to do, and why she feels she isn't worthy to get a job elsewhere (it's entirely her self esteem right now JK, you need to play off that). Tell her you understand and you want to make sure she is happy with everything to. Why not sit down with her, talk about what it is she wants to "really" do. Make a list of what makes her happiest in life. Is it teaching karate, is it being educated, what is it that really makes her the happiest when she's doing it (becides you smartarse). Then make a plan from there. In terms of applying for jobs, if this is what she really wants to do, tell her you would have no problem with her going back to school, if she had a plan in mind so you both know time and money was being spent effectively. But also tell her that she's not going to know if she's qualified for something of not, if she doesnt' try. Going back into the work force can be really scary, you need to find a way to make her feel like she is worthy and can do it. Tell her it would all be a learning experience that she could take with her for future endeavors.

 

Also remind her that what the job description says in the paper usually isn't what they are always looking for. The hiring manager usually goes to the HR rep and says he wants to fill this position, and the HR rep writes a nice fancy description to put in the paper, usually with more qualificiations than necesarry (I know, I've done this). And, if she submits her resume, the worst they can do is not call. That's it, they aren't going to call and say "WTF did you send us your resume for", they just won't call. And, if they do call, then she knows she is in fact qualified which could help with her self esteem - because they woudn't spend time to interview her if she weren't qualified.

 

Anyway, sorry for the book but I hope something here helps just a little. Remember, I am dr sawilson after all.

Thanks a lot for your insights and help, sawilson. You are a good friend.

[Franknbeans 46]

tell her about your date with sawilson. That'll really put her over the edge.

[EndGame 0]

Her fam is not like that, it is just that myself, her bro, and her SIL all have masters.

 

Obviously your masters isn't in English.

 

(sorry ... I really couldn't help myself)

[AirRam 3]

The FFToday chicks have good insight on this one. And I get how slightly different spouses' views on major financial decisions like selling a house and moving into a new neighborhood can be. We had the same kind of thing (on a smaller scale for sure) moving to MD. I did the whole cost-benefit analysis and thought . Unfortunately there are no weighting systems for emotional attachment or investment in a property or career (Mrs. Ram has a degree in biology and teaching).

 

sawilson and cn's suggestions are good ones. Everything will work out best in the end.

[Riddlen 1]

do she have a bach of engineering? If not she has no shot. Engineer by experience jobs are d-u-n done.

[ocramfan 0]

Sorry to hear about the house JK....my wife and I are also getting our house ready as we speak to sell, cuz she wants a divorce......It's very tough giving up a nice piece of property here in the O.C...But we will each pocket about $ 200,000 cash...so I'll be able to buy a condo on my own and get new pvssy....

 

 

[sawilson 1]

Thanks a lot for your insights and help, sawilson. You are a good friend.

Anytime JK. Give me a status update when you got a min, K?

[p.man 7]

Sorry to hear about your situation.

 

I think your wife should go back to work FULL TIME! because it sounds like she would be able to make more of a per month sallary than you. As far as you're concerned I think you should be a stay at home Dad and try to find a full time 2nd shift job. Something like 4pm to 12am. If you can do that you'll still be able to sleep normal hours. $175.00 a week extra is not that much to overcome. If you need someone to watch the kids for an hour or two because of a possible overlap in work hours I would hope someone in either of your families would help out. I would tend to think someone would be able to help the two of you.

 

You'll need to sell the house if you don't try right? So why not try to do anything you can to save the house for your family? Don't be in a down mood because you really sound like you are. You also sound like a good person. YOU MUST TRY!!! Good Luck!

[swamp dog 0]

when there's a problem, all the other problems get thrown into the stew. it's ALL related.

[Blitzen 1]

I think the attachment to the house, other than her genuinely liking it more than me, is the loss of status. We live in an impressive custom neighborhood. A lot of pro athletes, CEOs, etc. are our neighbors. We'll be moving down to a less impressive neighborhood. She likes the Wow factor when people come to visit. I am making her out to be quite the shallow person which isn't fair;

 

I think in this case it is fair. Jeebus, some folks are stressed out because they have no place to live. You guys are stressed out because your house is too big.

[swamp dog 0]

I think in this case it is fair. Jeebus, some folks are stressed out because they have no place to live. You guys are stressed out because your house is too big.

 

damn you HGTV!!!

 

we're going through something similar (on a smaller scale) while getting bids for remodeling our kitchen. what we need and what we want--just like everyone--are entirely two different things.

 

when i have friends come to my house and go "wow!" and i simply say: "all it means is that i'm more in debt than you are."

 

really, that's the bottomline for all of the status people: they don't have it better than you or me--they're just in debt up to their eyeballs (most of them, anyway).

[Blitzen 1]

damn you HGTV!!!

 

we're going through something similar (on a smaller scale) while getting bids for remodeling our kitchen. what we need and what we want--just like everyone--are entirely two different things.

 

when i have friends come to my house and go "wow!" and i simply say: "all it means is that i'm more in debt than you are."

 

really, that's the bottomline for all of the status people: they don't have it better than you or me--they're just in debt up to their eyeballs (most of them, anyway).

 

If selling the hugeass house and moving to a slightly less castle-like house doesn't remove the stress, then we're talking about shallowness. I mean when you're stressed out about the WOW factor of a house, you have few problems in life.

[Chronic Husker 86]

MUA

[nobody 2,882]

she is an engineer by training who has given up her career to stay home with our kids

 

 

Just tell her she's already got the MRS, so she don't need no MS.

 

 

YEAH!

 

If selling the hugeass house and moving to a slightly less castle-like house doesn't remove the stress, then we're talking about shallowness. I mean when you're stressed out about the WOW factor of a house, you have few problems in life.

 

 

This ain't Canada baby. West Coast is all about image. It's the most important thing in life.

[swamp dog 0]

i think anyone who took out an arm loan and planned on staying long-term in the house was in denial about what they could and couldn't afford.

 

those arm loans the past few years made a lot of people think they were in a different tax bracket then they really were.

 

not saying that's the case in this particular situation. but the mention of the word "arm" got me on my soapbox.

[jerryskids 7,083]

Sorry to hear about your situation.

 

I think your wife should go back to work FULL TIME! because it sounds like she would be able to make more of a per month sallary than you. As far as you're concerned I think you should be a stay at home Dad and try to find a full time 2nd shift job. Something like 4pm to 12am. If you can do that you'll still be able to sleep normal hours. $175.00 a week extra is not that much to overcome. If you need someone to watch the kids for an hour or two because of a possible overlap in work hours I would hope someone in either of your families would help out. I would tend to think someone would be able to help the two of you.

 

You'll need to sell the house if you don't try right? So why not try to do anything you can to save the house for your family? Don't be in a down mood because you really sound like you are. You also sound like a good person. YOU MUST TRY!!! Good Luck!

No, I still make more than she could. I have a BSEE and an MBA and have a high-paying sales job. Just not as high paying as it used to be. We've saved enough to live for years on just my base if we needed to, but we don't want to do that. Plus I'd kill my kids within a week if I watched them full time.

 

I think in this case it is fair. Jeebus, some folks are stressed out because they have no place to live. You guys are stressed out because your house is too big.

Agreed, in this case she is being shallow. I was pointing out that in most things she is not. She has spent the past few weekends sanding and painting cabinet doors, painting medicine cabinets, helping me change sink and shower fixtures, and helping me solder a new valve. She is really quite normal other than this house/status thing.

 

damn you HGTV!!!

 

we're going through something similar (on a smaller scale) while getting bids for remodeling our kitchen. what we need and what we want--just like everyone--are entirely two different things.

 

when i have friends come to my house and go "wow!" and i simply say: "all it means is that i'm more in debt than you are."

 

really, that's the bottomline for all of the status people: they don't have it better than you or me--they're just in debt up to their eyeballs (most of them, anyway).

No debt other than our mortgage. Cars are paid off, credit cards paid off every month. We fell into that trap early in our marriage, got out of it and swore never again. That is part of why we are doing this.

[Rusty Syringes 478]

The "M" in ARM loan stands for moron.

 

HTH.

[jerryskids 7,083]

If selling the hugeass house and moving to a slightly less castle-like house doesn't remove the stress, then we're talking about shallowness. I mean when you're stressed out about the WOW factor of a house, you have few problems in life.

Objectively we have few problems in life. Three smart, healthy kids, etc. Problems are relative though.

 

The "M" in ARM loan stands for moron.

 

HTH.

We've always had ARMs and it has always worked to our benefit, until now. Our justification has always been "why pay more now, and if payments go up to the point we can't afford it, we sell it." We've saved a lot of money with this approach. Unfortunately, it is time to put this to the test, and my wife isn't thrilled.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

i think anyone who took out an arm loan and planned on staying long-term in the house was in denial about what they could and couldn't afford.

 

those arm loans the past few years made a lot of people think they were in a different tax bracket then they really were.

 

not saying that's the case in this particular situation. but the mention of the word "arm" got me on my soapbox.

 

Include "interest only" in that equation. Those are the ones that are going to be causing people some major problems once the 5 year period of "interest only" is done and some principal becomes due.

 

I think that working solely to pay the mortgage is asking for trouble.

 

jerryskids - Sounds like the Mrs. needs a reality check. Time to figure out what she wants to be when she grows up. It may very well be that the profession that she chooses is not going to be big money-maker. That is not so bad. Just spend based upon what you KNOW you will make and everything else is extra (1/2 for near-term things, 1/2 to be saved). That may help keep you from doing the same thing again.

[Rusty Syringes 478]

Because you fail to build up equity and wind up paying interest upon interest of the amount you're not paying off while in denial that you just bought yourself a house. Sitting around an paying nothing but interest is no way to go through life, son.

[jerryskids 7,083]

Because you fail to build up equity and wind up paying interest upon interest of the amount you're not paying off while in denial that you just bought yourself a house. Sitting around an paying nothing but interest is no way to go through life, son.

Are you talking to me? If so you might want to check your math regarding the amount of principal paid off with a lower interest loan (i.e., an ARM initially) vs. a higher interest loan.

[Rusty Syringes 478]

Are you talking to me? If so you might want to check your math regarding the amount of principal paid off with a lower interest loan (i.e., an ARM initially) vs. a higher interest loan.

 

Hey, I'm not the downsizer here, sports fan.

[lambert58 73]

This is a very complex and emotional issue that I am sure has driven you to a frustration like no other. My only concern with your situation is that in order for any Geek to help you we need to know the wife's can size. This highly important piece of information should have been mentioned first.

[swamp dog 0]

i dunno...i just have a problem with doing an arm as the mortgage of choice 100 percent of the time. that raelly is asking for trouble. i hope to god when you downsize this time you go in at ground zero with a fixed rate (which are still pretty low). if you want to know what kind of house you can afford NOW, TODAY figure it out with a fixed rate.

[jerryskids 7,083]

This is a very complex and emotional issue that I am sure has driven you to a frustration like no other. My only concern with your situation is that in order for any Geek to help you we need to know the wife's can size. This highly important piece of information should have been mentioned first.

32C

[mighty_thor 115]

We've always had ARMs and it has always worked to our benefit, until now. Our justification has always been "why pay more now, and if payments go up to the point we can't afford it, we sell it." We've saved a lot of money with this approach. Unfortunately, it is time to put this to the test, and my wife isn't thrilled.

 

ARMs are good for people who intend to sell in the short term. The problem is that you will now be paying a higher interest rate than you would have if you initially got a 30 year fixed. so, by being forced to sell you will also be forced to pay more interest. We bought a home a couple of years ago where we intend to stay long term and raise a family. When i told the banker that we were looking for a 30 year fixed, he gave me a look and thought I was crazy. I guess these ARMs are the norm.

 

Because you fail to build up equity and wind up paying interest upon interest of the amount you're not paying off while in denial that you just bought yourself a house. Sitting around an paying nothing but interest is no way to go through life, son.

 

Most ARMs are not interest only.

[TimmySmith 2,783]

Without getting into the mortgage issue. Judging from what you said, you probably live in a very nice house, in a very nice neighborhood. Probably drive nice cars and take nice vacations. Your wife is used to this. While you sweat it out, she is thinking about how this "move down" looks. My guess on the surface is that she is concerned with social status.

[Toro 3]

My wife is going through something similar as well. She has her masters in education administration and has been a teacher for the past 7 years at the same school. This is the same school where she did her student teaching. She has had exactly one interview in her whole life. Now, she is completely burned out with teaching and is looking to getting out into the other side, away from teaching. So it's been very stressful for her and it takes a toll on everything else. I am very used to switching jobs and having sudden instability in my employment but she has never had any instability.

 

Sounds like your wife needs to go back to work more than anything. If her identity is based on the house, then she needs to find something else.