If Favre wins the Superbowl

[NewbieJr 541]

I don't see how you can rank Marino ahead of Elway. Elway did alot more with less. Marino has better numbers simply because he ran an offense that didn't try to run. I can respect your opinion, but having Manning ahead of Elway....what do you base that on?

 

It's an impossible list to get anyone to agree on. Everyone's criteria is so much different.

They may have been pass-first, but Marino's weapons- Duper, Clayton, Nat Moore, Jimmy Cefalo, ect., weren't exactly an all-star cast. Sure Duper and Clayton ended up with good numbers during Marino's prime, but I don't think either was an exceptionally great receiver. Probably in the Antonio Freeman category.

[Cuse9 131]

They may have been pass-first, but Marino's weapons- Duper, Clayton, Nat Moore, Jimmy Cefalo, ect., weren't exactly an all-star cast. Sure Duper and Clayton ended up with good numbers during Marino's prime, but I don't think either was an exceptionally great receiver. Probably in the Antonio Freeman category.

 

Clayton and Duper were pretty good. I'd take them over what Elway worked with...Ricky Nattiel, Vance Johnson, Mark Jackson, Clint Sampson (RIP)! It wasn't until later in his career that he got Easy Ed and Rod, which I still would take Clayton/Duper over Ed/Rod.

 

I just see it as Elway took his teams to three Super Bowls with not one single HOF on the team. Then once he got some good talent around him he won two. Name another QB that has been to two or more SB's that didn't have any HOFers on his team. It's quite possible that not one player from Elways 80's SB teams or his late 90's SB teams will have a single player in the HOF. Now I definitly expect Shannon Sharpe to get in, but other than him I can't think of one guy. I don't think any QB has ever taken five teams to the Super Bowl either?

 

I dunno, maybe I'm just blinded by my fanhood? I've often wondered that?

[NewbieJr 541]

Clayton and Duper were pretty good. I'd take them over what Elway worked with...Ricky Nattiel, Vance Johnson, Mark Jackson, Clint Sampson (RIP)! It wasn't until later in his career that he got Easy Ed and Rod, which I still would take Clayton/Duper over Ed/Rod.

 

I just see it as Elway took his teams to three Super Bowls with not one single HOF on the team. Then once he got some good talent around him he won two. Name another QB that has been to two or more SB's that didn't have any HOFers on his team. It's quite possible that not one player from Elways 80's SB teams or his late 90's SB teams will have a single player in the HOF. Now I definitly expect Shannon Sharpe to get in, but other than him I can't think of one guy. I don't think any QB has ever taken five teams to the Super Bowl either?

 

I dunno, maybe I'm just blinded by my fanhood? I've often wondered that?

You're right about Elways' receivers. They weren't great. I also think that Duper and Clayton appeared to be pretty good because of Marino. Not that they were bad, but neither was a stud coming out of college or succeeded anywhere after Miami. It's hard to tell when receivers are fortunate enough to play with legendary quarterbacks.

 

I often wonder how great Marvin Harrison would be if he would have been in Arizon or Detroit, instead of being handcuffed to the best statistical QB of his generation. Better than the likes of Duper, Clayton, or Freeeman, no doubt, but I don't think he'd be considered the great that he is now.

[Cuse9 131]

You're right about Elways' receivers. They weren't great. I also think that Duper and Clayton appeared to be pretty good because of Marino. Not that they were bad, but neither was a stud coming out of college or succeeded anywhere after Miami. It's hard to tell when receivers are fortunate enough to play with legendary quarterbacks.

 

I often wonder how great Marvin Harrison would be if he would have been in Arizon or Detroit, instead of being handcuffed to the best statistical QB of his generation. Better than the likes of Duper, Clayton, or Freeeman, no doubt, but I don't think he'd be considered the great that he is now.

 

I agree...that old "I wonder what he would have been like with/without....??" That is the great Barry Sanders question...."If he had a line...."

 

BTW....I sent you an email....I need your expertise knowledge!! Hopefully you can help me out!

[patsnsox04 0]

If the pats win these 4 facts can not be argued. period.

1. They are the greatest team of all time.

2. It is the greatest season of all time.

3. Brady is the greatest qb of all time.

4. Belicheck is the greatest coach of all time.

 

Regardless of what anyone says all others take a back seat.

 

End of story,

 

Get your popcporn ready!!

[NewbieJr 541]

If the pats win these 4 facts can not be argued. period.

1. They are the greatest team of all time.

2. It is the greatest season of all time.

3. Brady is the greatest qb of all time.

4. Belicheck is the greatest coach of all time.

 

Regardless of what anyone says all others take a back seat.

 

End of story,

 

Get your popcporn ready!!

1 out of 4.

Greatest QB and coach can and will ALWAYS be debated. Even if Patriot fans say otherwise. I'm not sure when they decided they had teh final word on this.

 

Greatest season, record-wise, can NOT be debated. If they win the Super Bowl, the title is theirs.

 

Until they can somehow play the '85 Bears, '72 Dolphins, or '78 Steelers, greatest team of all-time is also an opinion.

 

Also, you can't simply dismiss the fact that hey were caught cheating this season. You can debate to what extent it helped them, but you can't make the fact simply disappear. Sorry.

[bigtuna 0]

You're right about Elways' receivers. They weren't great. I also think that Duper and Clayton appeared to be pretty good because of Marino. Not that they were bad, but neither was a stud coming out of college or succeeded anywhere after Miami. It's hard to tell when receivers are fortunate enough to play with legendary quarterbacks.

 

I often wonder how great Marvin Harrison would be if he would have been in Arizon or Detroit, instead of being handcuffed to the best statistical QB of his generation. Better than the likes of Duper, Clayton, or Freeeman, no doubt, but I don't think he'd be considered the great that he is now.

 

My only problem with Elway was that for much of his career he made more than his share of turnovers, his production was never great till the very end. Its a very small slight but just enough to rank him below Montana, Brady and Unitas. Physically he is likely the best ever.

[donhaas 19]

talk about leaving out the details.....like Keith Jackson, Reggie White, Robert Brooks, Leroy Butler, Sean Jones, Eugene Robinson, Santana Dotson, Aaron Taylor...they were loaded. and they were not in NE or SF's league in offensive production.

 

as for you thinking i was joking about where i rank Favre....i don't understand. I think ranking him with Elway and Bradshaw is a slight at all.

 

Thanks for proving my point once again...

 

If you are still fishing.... congrats for keeping me on the hook...

 

Brooks last productive season happened when he was 25 and he was out of the league at 28.... Taylor was such a great reason for Favre excelling that he was out of the league at 26, never to play in the NFL again. An old Jackson played his last year before retiring for the Packers.

 

Those are your reasons for Favre being a 3-time consecutive MVP.

 

 

Brady was a career 3400/27/15 guy before Moss culpoopered up his numbers for one season...

 

 

There's simply no comparison.

 

If Favre is barely cracking your top 10; Brady should be barely cracking your top 20.

 

 

I'm talking talent.... not participating on great teams... not throwing for 130 yards in a super bowl and winning an MVP....

....simply: how do you make people around you better???

 

Not how much they can make you a better QB....

 

No comparison here.

[patsnsox04 0]

Thanks for proving my point once again...

 

If you are still fishing.... congrats for keeping me on the hook...

 

Brooks last productive season happened when he was 25 and he was out of the league at 28.... Taylor was such a great reason for Favre excelling that he was out of the league at 26, never to play in the NFL again. An old Jackson played his last year before retiring for the Packers.

 

Those are your reasons for Favre being a 3-time consecutive MVP.

Brady was a career 3400/27/15 guy before Moss culpoopered up his numbers for one season...

There's simply no comparison.

 

If Favre is barely cracking your top 10; Brady should be barely cracking your top 20.

I'm talking talent.... not participating on great teams... not throwing for 130 yards in a super bowl and winning an MVP....

....simply: how do you make people around you better???

 

Not how much they can make you a better QB....

 

No comparison here.

 

why are nincompoops like you allowed to post ? im mean get serious you sound like an arse.

[cmkp0819 0]

why are nincompoops like you allowed to post ? im mean get serious you sound like an arse.

Hello pot, meet kettle.

[patsnsox04 0]

Hello pot, meet kettle.

 

 

Simply facts! Indisputable FACTS!!!!

Thats what you can come to expect my friends

[donhaas 19]

why are nincompoops like you allowed to post ? im mean get serious you sound like an arse.

 

It was an if/then

 

If Michael Jordan is not cracking your top 10; then scottie pippen should not be cracking your top 20....

 

 

You can't just highlight the scottie pippen part and :cry:

 

 

 

Are all NE fans this stupid??

[cmkp0819 0]

Simply facts! Indisputable FACTS!!!!

Thats what you can come to expect my friends

Facts? Facts about what?

[49ers_suck 0]

NO!

[Ambroc 0]

Where is everyone going with this?

 

Clearly, Packer fans cannot dispute Tom Brady's excellence during the season and in the playoffs. His record speaks for itself. You can't hold it against him that the market undervalued Moss and Welker. To argue that he's always been surrounded by talent is ridiculous, just as it is ridiculous to say Favre did it all by himself. (I would argue that Reggie White's signing was the watershed moment in recent Green Bay success; Favre, of course, being the most important.)

 

Clearly, Patriot fans cannot dispute that Favre is a fantastic player, one that could put a serious crimp in that 19-0 record IF New England is fortunate enough to get to 18-0. He holds the most important record for any quarterback: Games won. He has fought through pain (and addiction) to do great things. Sure, he has choked in the big game (PHI and ATL) just as Tom has choked (DEN and IND).

 

I would love to see the Pats and Packers in the big game, but now that it seems so certain, I'm sure either the Pack or the Pats or both are going to lose.

 

Good news for the Chargers....cold and WINDY on Sunday (but it is early yet.)

[drobeski 3,061]

No, its too late for him, brady is already way past him in greatest ever facts...he would need brady to go down and play another 20 yrs

[donhaas 19]

No, its too late for him, brady is already way past him in greatest ever facts...he would need brady to go down and play another 20 yrs

 

We're talking about football, not about producing bastards

 

But thanks for your input, ken...

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

Hey, fatboy. The Next Generation accidently typed "Rocket Ismail" instead of "Desmond Howard". Aren't you going to point that out to everyone in an attempt to feel like you have more football knowledge than him? Or is that just something you do with members you're obsessed with?

 

Umm, you were six minute behind my post and you are calling me obsessed? You really need some help. That little "vacation" that you get after the SB will do you some good.

[reapers69 0]

Also, you can't simply dismiss the fact that hey were caught cheating this season. You can debate to what extent it helped them, but you can't make the fact simply disappear. Sorry.

 

Newbie,

How about you tell us exactly how a tape that never made it to the locker room and ended up in the leagues possession before half time impacted the outcome of this season. There is no debate over how much it helped them this season. They never got to use the tape. so there was no help.

[Pimptaddy 0]

Favre is not going to win it this year. Brady is the top guy if he keeps winning titles at his current pace.

[NewbieJr 541]

Newbie,

How about you tell us exactly how a tape that never made it to the locker room and ended up in the leagues possession before half time impacted the outcome of this season. There is no debate over how much it helped them this season. They never got to use the tape. so there was no help.

Oh yeah. I forgot. Belichick got caught the very first (and last) time he ever tried cheating.

[patsnsox04 0]

[Dan 66]

Didn't say that at all, was just saying that people are looking at this year as the norm for Brady's O-line, which featured 3 Pro Bowlers this year. I've watched every game Brady has ever played, and to think he just sits back there and throws all day is ridiculous. That's why they threw as many screens and dink & dunks as they did, that and the the OL couldn't get a run game going. As the line has gotten progressively better the air attack has opened up. Also watch the carolina SB again, want to see how they hid any weakness or protected Brady from that front four, watch how many times they rolled the pocket out. I'm not saying the Patriot line has been mediocre at all, i'm just saying that they have never been considered the best blocking Ol until this year, you'd be hard pressed to find people that thought they were even top 10 until recently. I remember a couple threads here that rated OLines and no one ever mentioned the Pats. Brady also does a great job working with Koppen in identifying who's coming on blitzes and setting up blocking assignments at the line of scrimmage.

 

Also, I didn't write "best pocket awareness" i wrote "maybe the best pocket awareness" as it's open to opinion.

 

My apologies. I misread your comment on "best pocket awareness."

 

Regarding the line, I have to hold my line, and I do it without fear of hypocrisy, because I know that I observed it long before this year, and I know that there are much sharper football people around than I am. Pocket awareness is important, and certainly helps, but protection helps more. I don't care how good a QB is, he is not going to be throwing under pressure constantly have consistent success.

 

I'll concede that the O-line was underrated, but I would still argue that they were very good.

[bigtuna 0]

Thanks for proving my point once again...

 

If you are still fishing.... congrats for keeping me on the hook...

 

Brooks last productive season happened when he was 25 and he was out of the league at 28.... Taylor was such a great reason for Favre excelling that he was out of the league at 26, never to play in the NFL again. An old Jackson played his last year before retiring for the Packers.

 

Those are your reasons for Favre being a 3-time consecutive MVP.

Brady was a career 3400/27/15 guy before Moss culpoopered up his numbers for one season...

There's simply no comparison.

 

If Favre is barely cracking your top 10; Brady should be barely cracking your top 20.

I'm talking talent.... not participating on great teams... not throwing for 130 yards in a super bowl and winning an MVP....

....simply: how do you make people around you better???

 

Not how much they can make you a better QB....

 

No comparison here.

 

Brady won Superbowls 3 of them with David Patten (waiver wire), Troy Brown (waiver wire), Fred Coleman (waiver Wire), David Givens (7th rounder almost out football now), and Deoin Branch (perenially injured, and soon to be out of football), at WR far, far, far, far worse than anything Favre had (Brooks, Sharpe, Freeman, Driver) now he has Moss and you all saw what he did.

 

I know it hurts that most people now consider Brady the greatest of all time. And nobody besides you thinks Favre is. aHe is a great but flawed player. Its not a slight, and i do not see why you are so insecure about it. and please don't wash over that Packer D the ONLY SB they won. It was #1 ranked and totally dominated in the SB, with incredible ST play. lets please keep it real. talent for talent that Packer team matched up with any of the Patriot 3 SB teams. But not the one they have now.

 

i

[Dan 66]

bigtuna - Do you just read the things you want to read? Just see the things you want to see?

 

Wake up! You don't have to agree with others in the thread, but to argue that most people now consider Brady the best of all time is just blatantly false.

 

Among others, I have gone on record as believing that Favre is the best ever. And I'm not a homer fan. You, however, are. So if that's the tack you want to take here, then perhaps my view is less biased?

[The Next Generation 11]

I think the correct answer to greatest QB of all-time is: Dabromjo Monbradinovre

 

Was that the Bastard love child of Don Majokowski and Yinka Dare?

 

DanBrettTomJoe MontanaBradyMarinoFavre

 

Basically, it's a moot point.

[NewbieJr 541]

Thread summary:

 

To the rational, objective fans of 31 NFL teams and true football historians, it can never be assumed that one single QB was the definitive "best ever". There are way too many factors- receivers, offensive lines, defense, coaches, insane individual numbers, performance in clutch situations. We all know that Montana, Marino, Brady, Favre, Elway, and Manning are among the top. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. All of them could have probably done equally well with the teams the others played for. They were all difference makers, rather than simply guys put in there to 'not make mistakes'. Arguments can be made for or against any one of teh above named QBs as the best ever.

 

To Patriots fans, it's Tom Brady.

 

 

Thread over.

[donhaas 19]

Brady won Superbowls 3

 

Brady needed outstanding coaching, defense, and the heroics of a 5'6, 122 pound kicker to barely, barely, barely sneak by three of the worst super bowl contestants in history.

 

If Brady and the Patriots are playing in Favre's earlier era, they never make it out of the first round against Dallas, san fran, and Green Bay.

 

We've seen Brady without Moss to Culpooper up his stats.... Don Majkowski-type career stats...

 

 

Congrats to Brady for being one of 53 guys on some very talented teams, congrats to him for throwing for 130 yards in a super bowl and being given an MVP for that , congrats to him for never having to face adversity during his career...

 

 

Talentwise and making the players around you better.... Favre > Brady .... and it is not even close...

 

Being a participant on a super bowl team in a tremendous downtime for the NFL .... Brady > Favre

 

 

Using moss to culpooper up Chris Chandler lifetime stats.... Brady > Favre (although Culpooper himself is very close behind 4700/39/11 -- with no classless 4th quarter/4th down up-45-0 stat padding)

 

 

Overall.... Favre > Brady

Not even close....

[NewbieJr 541]

Overall.... Favre > Brady

Not even close....

According to an ESPN poll I heard yesterday on the radio, America agrees with you. In a landslide.

[KSB2424 3,174]

Mike and Mike had a little bit this morning about this exact question "If Favre wins the SB will he be considered the greatest QB all-time". I swear I think they along with Bill Simmons read this forearm.

[Dan 66]

Mike and Mike had a little bit this morning about this exact question "If Favre wins the SB will he be considered the greatest QB all-time". I swear I think they along with Bill Simmons read this forearm.

 

Good business suggests that they would. The radio hosts and programs look to hit the topics that touch our hearts and incite our opinions. How better to find them out than to actually go to sports boards to see what the talk is about among the common folk.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Brady won Superbowls 3 of them with David Patten (waiver wire), Troy Brown (waiver wire), Fred Coleman (waiver Wire), David Givens (7th rounder almost out football now), and Deoin Branch (perenially injured, and soon to be out of football), at WR far, far, far, far worse than anything Favre had (Brooks, Sharpe, Freeman, Driver) now he has Moss and you all saw what he did.

 

I know it hurts that most people now consider Brady the greatest of all time. And nobody besides you thinks Favre is. aHe is a great but flawed player. Its not a slight, and i do not see why you are so insecure about it. and please don't wash over that Packer D the ONLY SB they won. It was #1 ranked and totally dominated in the SB, with incredible ST play. lets please keep it real. talent for talent that Packer team matched up with any of the Patriot 3 SB teams. But not the one they have now.

 

i

 

He did not have Sharpe for long.

But yes, I think you can put Patten, Brooks, Freeman, Branch, Troy Brown, Bill Shroeder...all in the same category.

Both excelled when they had strong defenses and good head coaches. (Brady with the same coach for his career...Favre will 4 different coaches.

 

And it looks like more than just one person (who may be talking tongue in cheek to keep baiting you insecure Pats fans who whine the minute anyone thinks anything not Patriot is better) thinks that if the Packers win it all that Favre can be called the greatest (for now).

 

If you want to keep it real...you might want to do so yourself.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Thread summary:

 

To the rational, objective fans of 31 NFL teams and true football historians, it can never be assumed that one single QB was the definitive "best ever". There are way too many factors- receivers, offensive lines, defense, coaches, insane individual numbers, performance in clutch situations. We all know that Montana, Marino, Brady, Favre, Elway, and Manning are among the top. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. All of them could have probably done equally well with the teams the others played for. They were all difference makers, rather than simply guys put in there to 'not make mistakes'. Arguments can be made for or against any one of teh above named QBs as the best ever.

 

To Patriots fans, it's Tom Brady.

Thread over.

 

Best posting of the day.

[49ers_suck 0]

According to an ESPN poll I heard yesterday on the radio, America agrees with you. In a landslide.

yeah, but who's voting? a few fans and mostly a bunch of the same people who followed the Romo simpson thing. this a stupid argument. Joe Montana is the greatest QB of all time. Favre has a shittty playoff record, even if he wins this year, which he has about a snowball's chance in helll of doing.

 

Favre is the ironman of QB's. the greatest of all time, no way.

[The Next Generation 11]

Good business suggests that they would. The radio hosts and programs look to hit the topics that touch our hearts and incite our opinions. How better to find them out than to actually go to sports boards to see what the talk is about among the common folk.

 

Who you callin' common, fool?

[49ers_suck 0]

you GB fans want suck favre off, and it's hilarious.

[KSB2424 3,174]

you GB fans want suck favre off, and it's hilarious.

I'm not a Green Bay fan?

[Dan 66]

you GB fans want suck favre off, and it's hilarious.

 

Again . . . I am not. Of whom are you a fan?

[Sho Nuff 720]

you GB fans want suck favre off, and it's hilarious.

 

And you Dallas fans just want to whine about GB because you have not won a playoff game in how long now?

 

Yeah...I must be sucking him off with my first post in this thread right...

Maybe.

But I don't think he would pass Montana, but for the time, I might put him past Brady (Id put it 1. Montana, 2. Brady right now)...whereas, if Brady wins it, IMO he is past Montana as G.O.A.T.

[NewbieJr 541]

I'm not a Green Bay fan?

Nor I