A brief history of Mel Kiper

[wiffleball 4,790]

Among his failures in 1990, Kiper thought that Heisman Trophy winner and University of Houston quarterback Andre Ware would be an excellent NFL quarterback and a great match for the Detroit Lions-- Ware's tenure in the NFL was brief and inconspicuous. Ware is considered among the biggest busts in draft history.[6]

 

In the 1995 Draft, Kiper proclaimed UCLA wide receiver JJ Stokes a "sure-thing" who was destined to be a future All-Pro. On draft day, Kiper lambasted several teams, including the New York Jets, for passing on Stokes until he was selected 10th overall by the San Francisco 49ers. Stokes spent an undistinguished 8 years in San Francisco in the shadows of Jerry Rice and Terrell Owens, never making a single Pro Bowl or even surpassing 770 yards receiving.

 

In the same 1995 Draft, Kiper had rated BYU Quarterback John Walsh as a first round pick. Walsh declared for the draft after his Junior season and had an abysmal NFL combine where he ran a 5.3 forty yard dash and displayed a weak arm in workouts. Nonetheless, Kiper still rated Walsh as a late 1st/early 2nd round pick on the day of the draft and said he would be a perfect fit for a "West Coast Offense" team like the San Francisco 49ers because of his accuracy on short passes. Walsh slid all the way to the 7th round where he was finally taken by the Cincinnati Bengals. He never appeared in a single game for the quarterback needy Bengals and was out of football less than a year later.

 

In 1998 Kiper said that Washington State Quarterback Ryan Leaf's "attitude" (which had rubbed teammates and coaches the wrong way in college) would be an asset in the NFL and give him a mental advantage over Peyton Manning. Kiper also said that Leaf had the better natural physical tools and would be a great quarterback, though he still rated Manning as the more polished and better overall prospect. Leaf was chosen second overall by the San Diego Chargers immediately after Manning. Leaf's career soon imploded, largely because of a confrontational attitude and poor practice habits that alienated teammates, coaches, and fans. He is now regarded as not only the worst bust in NFL draft history, but also possibly the biggest bust in all of professional sports

 

Also in 1998, the Green Bay Packers selected Matt Hasselbeck in the 6th round (187 overall). Hasselbeck had not even been invited to the scouting combine, and Kiper referred to the selection as "a waste of a pick". Hasselbeck went on to play for the Seattle Seahawks, and set over 30 franchise records. He led them to Superbowl XL, which they lost to the Pittsburgh Steelers.

 

1999, Kiper said that Oregon quarterback Akili Smith would be a great NFL player and would finally provide the Cincinnati Bengals with the passer they'd lacked since Boomer Esiason. Smith was selected ahead of Daunte Culpepper, Torry Holt, Edgerrin James, Champ Bailey, and Jevon Kearse, but he spent less than four abysmal seasons in Cincinnati, starting only 17 games. He has since struggled in several brief stops in the NFL, NFL Europe, and the CFL. It's notable that Kiper rated Smith higher than Donovan McNabb and Culpepper, despite the facts that Smith only had 11 starts at the college level and had performed poorly on the Wonderlic aptitude tests administered at the NFL Combine, both of which are traditionally seen as important indicators of a quarterback's readiness for the NFL. Smith's career was marred by inconsistency and failure to grasp the complexities of the Bengals' playbook, issues which appear to have been foreshadowed by his lack of experience and low scores.

 

One of Kiper's most well known mistakes was when he stated that USC wide receiver Mike Williams would be the best player in his 2005 draft class, despite not having played football in over a year after being ruled ineligible by the NCAA. When ESPN analyst Merril Hoge disagreed, Kiper uttered the now infamous line, "I'll see you at his Hall of Fame induction." Williams has been a remarkable disappointment, battling weight problems, playing very little and showing no signs of improvement with any of the three teams he's played for. Williams was unsigned after three years in the NFL as of 2008.

[DaveJ 0]

This is news? Kiper is a tool... and always has been. He has no feel for talent at all. The epitome of the arm chair GM and the kid who was always picked last when it came time to pick teams.

[listen2me 23 1,873]

Although I like Mayock much better. I think he is a better evaluator, has more insight, is available for free often on NFL Network, and actually played.

 

All guys have these screw ups. Many of us forget how much of a crap shoot it really is. The Mike Williams year and quote is the funniest and craziest and he should be bashed for that for the rest of his career.

[DaveJ 0]

Although I like Mayock much better. I think he is a better evaluator, has more insight, is available for free often on NFL Network, and actually played.

 

All guys have these screw ups. Many of us forget how much of a crap shoot it really is. The Mike Williams year and quote is the funniest and craziest and he should be bashed for that for the rest of his career.

 

Screw ups are one thing.. the point against Kiper is his approach and how he fosters his opinion. He thinks he is gods greatest talent hound. If he managed to avoid words like, Sure Fire, HOF caliber, Can't Miss etc he would do himself a huge favor.

 

In the broader view... what is his job? His job is to highlight talent, background college players and rank them etc. Basically the same job any NFL talent scout has. If they used that terminology and bet the house on the number of players he has that have been huge busts, you think they would still be employed in the NFL?? They would be picking up their pink slips.

 

So the story here is not Do others make bad projections.. its how he makes his picks and puts so much of his 'reputation' on the line with them every year. Sure its entertainment, but he isn't all that entertaining and if he wants to be taken seriously in his job he needs to stop with the glorified claims on these guys and come back down to earth a bit.

 

You can be wrong... but do so humbly. Especially when you are off the charts wrong so often, that list is a small sample.

[kutulu 1,676]

[WhiteWonder 2,736]

Screw ups are one thing.. the point against Kiper is his approach and how he fosters his opinion. He thinks he is gods greatest talent hound. If he managed to avoid words like, Sure Fire, HOF caliber, Can't Miss etc he would do himself a huge favor.

 

In the broader view... what is his job? His job is to highlight talent, background college players and rank them etc. Basically the same job any NFL talent scout has. If they used that terminology and bet the house on the number of players he has that have been huge busts, you think they would still be employed in the NFL?? They would be picking up their pink slips.

 

So the story here is not Do others make bad projections.. its how he makes his picks and puts so much of his 'reputation' on the line with them every year. Sure its entertainment, but he isn't all that entertaining and if he wants to be taken seriously in his job he needs to stop with the glorified claims on these guys and come back down to earth a bit.

 

You can be wrong... but do so humbly. Especially when you are off the charts wrong so often, that list is a small sample.

 

hmmm while i think Mel Kiper is a tool, who want's to hear an entertainer (largely what Kiper is supposed to be) evaluate players with phrases like "he could be good, but maybe not" and "this guy will be adequate"... we would all be hounding him for being boring and indecisive.

The guy should sound confident in what he does, albeit in a less ###### way.

 

Also Im willing to bet NFL talent evaluators make some bold statements and when they backfire they are indeed handed their pink slips... We just don't hear about it because we don't know who they are.

[IGotWorms 4,058]

I used to hate Mel Kiper because he is a pompous d!ck, but then I realized that is just part of his appeal. You just kinda have to laugh at him.

[dehaven123 31]

I enjoy him on draft day

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Hey, wiff. A link to the info is in order. If you are going to bash a guy, you might as well site your sources. Otherwise, you are RP of the Mange Bored.

[Mack 1 6]

I'd say Kiper's success rate with rating players is probably about 50%...about the same as it is with front office-types in the NFL.

 

Kiper is what he is: an entertaining dude with strong opinions that often later blow up in his face. Love him or loathe him, the NFL draft on ESPN wouldn't be the same without him.

[Melissa Stark 1]

Besides Leaf, anyone know what he said about Lawrence Phillips?

[listen2me 23 1,873]

I'd say Kiper's success rate with rating players is probably about 50%...about the same as it is with front office-types in the NFL.

 

Kiper is what he is: an entertaining dude with strong opinions that often later blow up in his face. Love him or loathe him, the NFL draft on ESPN wouldn't be the same without him.

 

Mayock is much better, we can even throw out track records. He just brings more. To a casual football fan Kiper may be more entertaining, not sure?

 

The draft coverage is becoming stupid. You have Boomer calling out picks before they happen, Kiper going crazy, and usually at least 1 fool who has no clue about any of the players after the 1st 10.

[FlaHawker 24]

Among his failures in 1990, Kiper thought that Heisman Trophy winner and University of Houston quarterback Andre Ware would be an excellent NFL quarterback and a great match for the Detroit Lions-- Ware's tenure in the NFL was brief and inconspicuous. Ware is considered among the biggest busts in draft history.[6]

 

In the 1995 Draft, Kiper proclaimed UCLA wide receiver JJ Stokes a "sure-thing" who was destined to be a future All-Pro. On draft day, Kiper lambasted several teams, including the New York Jets, for passing on Stokes until he was selected 10th overall by the San Francisco 49ers. Stokes spent an undistinguished 8 years in San Francisco in the shadows of Jerry Rice and Terrell Owens, never making a single Pro Bowl or even surpassing 770 yards receiving.

 

In the same 1995 Draft, Kiper had rated BYU Quarterback John Walsh as a first round pick. Walsh declared for the draft after his Junior season and had an abysmal NFL combine where he ran a 5.3 forty yard dash and displayed a weak arm in workouts. Nonetheless, Kiper still rated Walsh as a late 1st/early 2nd round pick on the day of the draft and said he would be a perfect fit for a "West Coast Offense" team like the San Francisco 49ers because of his accuracy on short passes. Walsh slid all the way to the 7th round where he was finally taken by the Cincinnati Bengals. He never appeared in a single game for the quarterback needy Bengals and was out of football less than a year later.

 

In 1998 Kiper said that Washington State Quarterback Ryan Leaf's "attitude" (which had rubbed teammates and coaches the wrong way in college) would be an asset in the NFL and give him a mental advantage over Peyton Manning. Kiper also said that Leaf had the better natural physical tools and would be a great quarterback, though he still rated Manning as the more polished and better overall prospect. Leaf was chosen second overall by the San Diego Chargers immediately after Manning. Leaf's career soon imploded, largely because of a confrontational attitude and poor practice habits that alienated teammates, coaches, and fans. He is now regarded as not only the worst bust in NFL draft history, but also possibly the biggest bust in all of professional sports

 

Also in 1998, the Green Bay Packers selected Matt Hasselbeck in the 6th round (187 overall). Hasselbeck had not even been invited to the scouting combine, and Kiper referred to the selection as "a waste of a pick". Hasselbeck went on to play for the Seattle Seahawks, and set over 30 franchise records. He led them to Superbowl XL, which they lost to the Pittsburgh Steelers.

 

1999, Kiper said that Oregon quarterback Akili Smith would be a great NFL player and would finally provide the Cincinnati Bengals with the passer they'd lacked since Boomer Esiason. Smith was selected ahead of Daunte Culpepper, Torry Holt, Edgerrin James, Champ Bailey, and Jevon Kearse, but he spent less than four abysmal seasons in Cincinnati, starting only 17 games. He has since struggled in several brief stops in the NFL, NFL Europe, and the CFL. It's notable that Kiper rated Smith higher than Donovan McNabb and Culpepper, despite the facts that Smith only had 11 starts at the college level and had performed poorly on the Wonderlic aptitude tests administered at the NFL Combine, both of which are traditionally seen as important indicators of a quarterback's readiness for the NFL. Smith's career was marred by inconsistency and failure to grasp the complexities of the Bengals' playbook, issues which appear to have been foreshadowed by his lack of experience and low scores.

 

One of Kiper's most well known mistakes was when he stated that USC wide receiver Mike Williams would be the best player in his 2005 draft class, despite not having played football in over a year after being ruled ineligible by the NCAA. When ESPN analyst Merril Hoge disagreed, Kiper uttered the now infamous line, "I'll see you at his Hall of Fame induction." Williams has been a remarkable disappointment, battling weight problems, playing very little and showing no signs of improvement with any of the three teams he's played for. Williams was unsigned after three years in the NFL as of 2008.

So the guy, right or wrong, takes a stance on his player evaluation and you bash him? I can see that especially since you stand for nothing. Well-done!

 

Nice link

[GettnHuge 2]

Time to update my yearly mel kiper post...

 

15 years ago

Kiper: This guy will be great! That guy will be terrible! These teams really screwed up!

years later those comments make Kiper look like an idiot

the worst ones are those who became studs that he said wouldn't do anything.

 

10 years ago

Kiper: I think this guy could be great! I think this guy won't make it!

years later those comments make Kiper look like an idiot

 

5 years ago

Kiper: I think this guy has potential. I think that guy could be good. Everyone made nice picks.

 

The only one he went out on a limb on in recent years was saying that Mike WIlliams would be a hall of fame NFLer

and that's because he was finally challenged

[HeirCoryell 0]

Present Day:

They are grooming McShay to take his place or at least be his "entertainment adversary"

[WhiteWonder 2,736]

Present Day:

They are grooming McShay to take his place or at least be his "entertainment adversary"

 

 

mcshay is a tool himself

[jgcrawfish 232]

Mayock >>>>> Coifed Kiper.

 

GM's miss on these guys because they become enamored with measureables and potential. Teams would be a lot better if they'd just draft somebody who makes plays. If a WR (say Calvin Johnson) has a crappy QB, is covered by the top corner game in game out (especially in a conference loaded w/ NFL talent) and beats double teams consistently but runs a 40 time slower than people expected (not that Calvin did, it was just an example) does that take away from what he did in those game all that time. I remember watching Zach Thomas at Texas Tech in person and the dude was all over the damn field. But come combine and draft time, suddenly he's too little, too slow and not a top prospect. I knew from 1 freakin game the dude was going to be all over the field no matter where he played, because he just makes plays. These guys overanalyize and forget this.

[Raider 84 29]

Mel Kiper has the best hair though!

[Groundhog 24]

To be fair, how about the set of names where Kiper said the kid would be terrible, and he was; and the names where Kiper said he would be great, and he was. This post makes it look like his batting average is horrendous. I'm not a Kiper fan per se, but maybe this a little skewed?

[GettnHuge 2]

To be fair, how about the set of names where Kiper said the kid would be terrible, and he was; and the names where Kiper said he would be great, and he was. This post makes it look like his batting average is horrendous. I'm not a Kiper fan per se, but maybe this a little skewed?

 

To me it's not about the names anymore. Because of past mistakes making him look idiotic, he no longer goes out

on a limb. Boring. He's obviously oversensitive about his genius being disputed

[wiffleball 4,790]

Hey, wiff. A link to the info is in order. If you are going to bash a guy, you might as well site your sources. Otherwise, you are RP of the Mange Bored.

 

And I "bashed" him where?

 

His pics are all over youboob and the 'net, but here's a compilation of them.:

 

You disputing he said any of these?

[wiffleball 4,790]

Mayock is much better, we can even throw out track records. He just brings more. To a casual football fan Kiper may be more entertaining, not sure?

 

The draft coverage is becoming stupid. You have Boomer calling out picks before they happen, Kiper going crazy, and usually at least 1 fool who has no clue about any of the players after the 1st 10.

 

Unfortunately, ever since Disney took over ESPN, it's all been about "characters". Even legitimate sports minds like Jaws have to be a "character".

 

If Kiper would just tone it down a notch, that'd be fine. But he speaks in complete absolutes - and NOBODY at ESPN ever goes back and fact-checks the guy later. I'd kill to see the other guys on ESPN start throwing out some of these past fock-ups whenever Kiper pulls that "I'll see you at his HOF induction!" crap.

 

 

Dude has absolutely no experience in any professional organization. Might as well have Mike McGreggor doing his job. He's like a focking weatherman - he blathers on and on, but nobody cares if he's right or wrong. He just comes up with another forecast the next day.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

And I "bashed" him where?

 

His pics are all over youboob and the 'net, but here's a compilation of them.:

 

You disputing he said any of these?

 

I am saying that you cherry picked the misses and skipped the hits. I don't like the guy, but that was classic RP right there.

[wiffleball 4,790]

I am saying that you cherry picked the misses and skipped the hits. I don't like the guy, but that was classic RP right there.

 

No, "classic RP" is to post utter bullshiit - then post an op ed ranting about it - and it turns out the whole thing is based upon a lie.

 

None of these are a lie are they? Like I said before, if he EVER said, "I could be wrong, but I think this kid..." - But he DOESN'T. He speaks in total absolutes. - And degrades and rolls his eyes at anyone who has a different opinion.

 

Obviously I'm highlighting his biggest failures - to prove that this guy isn't NEARLY as dead solid perfect as he - or ESPN - make him out to be.

 

Does ESPN ever show his failures? No. Do they crow about his 'successes?/scoops?' Yep - WAAY over the top. This is the logical counter to that bullshiit.

 

Obviously.

 

- To everyone but you and Flahawker. Good company there.

[ed_jones 0]

No, "classic RP" is to post utter bullshiit - then post an op ed ranting about it - and it turns out the whole thing is based upon a lie.

 

None of these are a lie are they? Like I said before, if he EVER said, "I could be wrong, but I think this kid..." - But he DOESN'T. He speaks in total absolutes. - And degrades and rolls his eyes at anyone who has a different opinion.

 

Obviously I'm highlighting his biggest failures - to prove that this guy isn't NEARLY as dead solid perfect as he - or ESPN - make him out to be.

 

Does ESPN ever show his failures? No. Do they crow about his 'successes?/scoops?' Yep - WAAY over the top. This is the logical counter to that bullshiit.

 

Obviously.

 

- To everyone but you and Flahawker. Good company there.

 

 

Whether we like Kiper or not the fact that you have gone to these lengths to discuss him says that he is doing his job. Yes, on the surface he is supposed to evaluate talent and such but between the lines he is supposed to be cocky and arrogant, it's good for ratings.As mentioned earlier, if he sounded wishy-washy about all his picks would we give a damn what he had to say? Nope. By being absolute he has people talking about him and his picks all while watching ESPN.Whether you like him or you dont he is the 1st guy that comes to mind when you think NFL draft.

[wiffleball 4,790]

Whether we like Kiper or not the fact that you have gone to these lengths to discuss him says that he is doing his job. Yes, on the surface he is supposed to evaluate talent and such but between the lines he is supposed to be cocky and arrogant, it's good for ratings.As mentioned earlier, if he sounded wishy-washy about all his picks would we give a damn what he had to say? Nope. By being absolute he has people talking about him and his picks all while watching ESPN.Whether you like him or you dont he is the 1st guy that comes to mind when you think NFL draft.

 

Unfortunately, ever since Disney took over ESPN, it's all been about "characters". Even legitimate sports minds like Jaws have to be a "character".

[throttlers 0]

I think we all know that Kiper isn't all he's cracked up to be. My question is, who is significantly better? Who else is analyzing the draft with a better track record?

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

No, "classic RP" is to post utter bullshiit - then post an op ed ranting about it - and it turns out the whole thing is based upon a lie.

 

None of these are a lie are they? Like I said before, if he EVER said, "I could be wrong, but I think this kid..." - But he DOESN'T. He speaks in total absolutes. - And degrades and rolls his eyes at anyone who has a different opinion.

 

Obviously I'm highlighting his biggest failures - to prove that this guy isn't NEARLY as dead solid perfect as he - or ESPN - make him out to be.

 

Does ESPN ever show his failures? No. Do they crow about his 'successes?/scoops?' Yep - WAAY over the top. This is the logical counter to that bullshiit.

 

Obviously.

 

- To everyone but you and Flahawker. Good company there.

 

 

Hmm. Well, you pull a quote from somewhere without crediting the source so that we can validate it. - RP

 

Then, the link you provide is incorrect - RP

 

So, we look at the source (Wikipedia) and find the real page and come up with the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Kiper

This biography of a living person does not cite any references or sources. Please help by adding reliable sources. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous or harmful. (September 2008) (Find sources: "Mel Kiper, Jr." — news, books, scholar)

 

The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (April 2008)

 

Yup - that is RP, alright.

 

Carry on with the bashing of Kiper. I change the channel when he comes on anyway.

[WhiteWonder 2,736]

And I "bashed" him where?

 

His pics are all over youboob and the 'net, but here's a compilation of them.:

 

You disputing he said any of these?

 

you went out of your way to post in writing about his most notrious blunders and misses while failing to mention any of the correct and smart calls he made. In the negative light of your post, it's not hard to see why someone would think you were bashing.

 

I hate Mel Kiper as well but it's pretty clear what your intent was

 

And again if the OP is not in your own words.... source?

[ens189 1]

I agree that this was a pretty one-sided negative post. Let's take a look at what one very credible football facts site said.

 

http://coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/..._scorecard.html

 

As far as the "experts" go, Kiper had the second best record last year in terms of picking first round picks which is very difficult to do when you consider the fact that one out of the whack pick can throw off an entire mock.

[worm 36]

In his latest mock he has Jacksonville taking Orakpo...after they drafted 2 pass rushers in a row last year. I'm not so sure about that one.

[FlaHawker 24]

No, "classic RP" is to post utter bullshiit - then post an op ed ranting about it - and it turns out the whole thing is based upon a lie.

 

None of these are a lie are they? Like I said before, if he EVER said, "I could be wrong, but I think this kid..." - But he DOESN'T. He speaks in total absolutes. - And degrades and rolls his eyes at anyone who has a different opinion.

 

Obviously I'm highlighting his biggest failures - to prove that this guy isn't NEARLY as dead solid perfect as he - or ESPN - make him out to be.

 

Does ESPN ever show his failures? No. Do they crow about his 'successes?/scoops?' Yep - WAAY over the top. This is the logical counter to that bullshiit.

 

Obviously.

 

- To everyone but you and Flahawker. Good company there.

Link to anyone who thinks Mel Kiper is dead solid perfect? It's the focking NFL draft for cripes sake. Not even NFL teams are dead solid perfect. Thanks for pointing out that Kiper isn't dead solid pefect Captain Obvious

[FlaHawker 24]

I remember watching Zach Thomas at Texas Tech in person and the dude was all over the damn field. But come combine and draft time, suddenly he's too little, too slow and not a top prospect. I knew from 1 freakin game the dude was going to be all over the field no matter where he played, because he just makes plays. These guys overanalyize and forget this.

Typical JG nonsense. YOU knew from one game that Zach Thomas was going to be a stud? Nice 20/20 hindisght with nothing to back that up. But let's play anayway. So are you saying if you were a GM for an NFL team, based on the 1 game you saw you would have taken Zach in the 1st?.

[madd futher mucker 36]

The 'pecking order':

 

Mike Mayock > any other knowledgeable draftniks (guys like Scott Wright) > Mel Kiper > the average dart player in any tavern league throwing darts at a board of draft-eligible players > Todd McShay

[edjr 6,586]

NFL teams make just as many if not more mistakes, where is the news here?

[WhiteWonder 2,736]

i don't like the guy but i think after reading some of the nonsense in this thread I like him a little more. He is what he is, entertainment during the draft on ESPN, he does his homework and his success rate is the same as most NFL GM's and similar to im sure anyone who took the time and did the same amount of legwork.

Most people seem to like Mayock more, myself included.... but I can't bash Kiper too badly.

[FlaHawker 24]

i don't like the guy but i think after reading some of the nonsense in this thread I like him a little more. He is what he is, entertainment during the draft on ESPN, he does his homework and his success rate is the same as most NFL GM's and similar to im sure anyone who took the time and did the same amount of legwork.

Most people seem to like Mayock more, myself included.... but I can't bash Kiper too badly.

You pretty much sum up what all these draft gurus are--entertainment. I mean there are too many variables that cannot be predicted for this to be an exact science. I mean the Seahawks take Rick Mirer # 2 overall in 93. From what I can remember, everyone had Bledsoe, Mirer 1-2 in those mocks. Heck Bill Walsh LOVED Rick Mirer. So why did Mirer fail miserably after a pretty promising rookie year? Coaching? Work ethic? Who knows but he bombed. Would his career been different had a team with a Bill Walsh as coach drafted him? Maybe, maybe not. Now, the typical response to my post here is yeah well Kiper said John Walsh blah blah blah. The guy took a stance, went out on a limb. He was wrong. So does that make him a mook? No, I give the guy credit for going out on that limb and making a bold prediction. Now, if the guy goes on TV and just plays it safe, you guys kill him for being a Capt Obvious. He can't win. Period. I've always liked Mel Kiper. He helped make the NFL draft on TV what it has become. I think he deserves some kudos for that

[jgcrawfish 232]

Typical JG nonsense. YOU knew from one game that Zach Thomas was going to be a stud? Nice 20/20 hindisght with nothing to back that up. But let's play anayway. So are you saying if you were a GM for an NFL team, based on the 1 game you saw you would have taken Zach in the 1st?

 

Hey, FlaHawker, good to see you again...I forget what a doosh you can be. In reference to you question above, No, that's not what I'm saying at all, but again you go on another one of the "putting words in my mouth tangets" that you so love. I could have told you after one game that Zach Thomas was light years better than the 5th round draft spot to which he fell. No, I can't go back to pre-draft to prove my feelings on Thomas. But I could have told that his one game vs a top college program was enough to convince me he was a player. I also could have told you that Priest Holmes would have been nothing more than a 3rd down back after watching him person at Marshall High School and UT, and I would have been way off on that one. I also could have told you that the greatest high school football player I ever saw (Robert Strait) was a sure-fire, can't-miss pro prospect who never even played in the NFL after getting drafted in the 10th round.

 

My point, which you always seem to miss because you're too busy nitpicking every word or playing pvssy symantics with words, is that scouts and talent evaluators spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about a 40 yrd dash time and not paying attention to what kind of player they have. They worry about all the "potential" and "intagibles" that a prospect has, instead of what he's done.

 

However, just for you...you can be damned sure I'm on record as saying that I don't personally think that Crabtree will live up to his hype. I've said there's no way he's on par with Calvin, Andre Johnson or Fitz and those are guys he gets comparisons to frequently in terms of his skill set. I've said (before his injury) that I don't think he's worthy of the high draft status they were bestowing on him and that I don't think he starts to make anything resembling an impact in is rookie and likely his sophomore season. I'm also on record as saying I hope the Seahawks draft him and I'll now go on record as saying that if/when I'm wrong I hope you come and remind me of it (which i'm certain you will) or that when/if I'm right about Crabtree that you shut your whiny little pie-hole up (which is about as likely as Hell freezing over).

 

[FlaHawker 24]

Hey, FlaHawker, good to see you again...I forget what a doosh you can be. In reference to you question above, No, that's not what I'm saying at all, but again you go on another one of the "putting words in my mouth tangets" that you so love. I could have told you after one game that Zach Thomas was light years better than the 5th round draft spot to which he fell. No, I can't go back to pre-draft to prove my feelings on Thomas. But I could have told that his one game vs a top college program was enough to convince me he was a player. I also could have told you that Priest Holmes would have been nothing more than a 3rd down back after watching him person at Marshall High School and UT, and I would have been way off on that one. I also could have told you that the greatest high school football player I ever saw (Robert Strait) was a sure-fire, can't-miss pro prospect who never even played in the NFL after getting drafted in the 10th round.

 

My point, which you always seem to miss because you're too busy nitpicking every word or playing pvssy symantics with words, is that scouts and talent evaluators spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about a 40 yrd dash time and not paying attention to what kind of player they have. They worry about all the "potential" and "intagibles" that a prospect has, instead of what he's done.

 

However, just for you...you can be damned sure I'm on record as saying that I don't personally think that Crabtree will live up to his hype. I've said there's no way he's on par with Calvin, Andre Johnson or Fitz and those are guys he gets comparisons to frequently in terms of his skill set. I've said (before his injury) that I don't think he's worthy of the high draft status they were bestowing on him and that I don't think he starts to make anything resembling an impact in is rookie and likely his sophomore season. I'm also on record as saying I hope the Seahawks draft him and I'll now go on record as saying that if/when I'm wrong I hope you come and remind me of it (which i'm certain you will) or that when/if I'm right about Crabtree that you shut your whiny little pie-hole up (which is about as likely as Hell freezing over).

 

Ok so Thomas, was better than 5th rd value, Holmes was nothing more than 3rd and Strait was a can't miss prospect based on your evaluations. So your point is? This is a thread bashing Kiper for his draft evaluations. You have actually just proven why Kiper can't be bashed. No one can really predict what these guys are gonna do no matter if you have seen 30 games or 1 game.

 

I hate to break this to you, but potential, intangibles, 40 times, game film, it all goes in the hopper. You can't just look at "game production" because like I have said, maybe a player who has a ton of potential was in the wrong system? Maybe the coach didn't like him and so on and so on. But I'm not suprised you don't get this

 

Link to where I have compared Crabtree to Calvin, AJ, or Fitz personally. I am on record as saying that I have not seen a ton of Crabtree games, but knowing the Seahawks have a weakness at WR (even with TJ), I would be all for the Hawks drafting him. Maybe he busts, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he's the next Calvin, maybe he 's the next David Terrell. I don't claim to know. Personally, I don't give a flying fock if you are right or wrong about Crabtree because basically I don't give a flying fock about you or your opinions.

[WhiteWonder 2,736]

Hey, FlaHawker, good to see you again...I forget what a doosh you can be. In reference to you question above, No, that's not what I'm saying at all, but again you go on another one of the "putting words in my mouth tangets" that you so love. I could have told you after one game that Zach Thomas was light years better than the 5th round draft spot to which he fell. No, I can't go back to pre-draft to prove my feelings on Thomas. But I could have told that his one game vs a top college program was enough to convince me he was a player. I also could have told you that Priest Holmes would have been nothing more than a 3rd down back after watching him person at Marshall High School and UT, and I would have been way off on that one. I also could have told you that the greatest high school football player I ever saw (Robert Strait) was a sure-fire, can't-miss pro prospect who never even played in the NFL after getting drafted in the 10th round.

 

My point, which you always seem to miss because you're too busy nitpicking every word or playing pvssy symantics with words, is that scouts and talent evaluators spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about a 40 yrd dash time and not paying attention to what kind of player they have. They worry about all the "potential" and "intagibles" that a prospect has, instead of what he's done.

 

However, just for you...you can be damned sure I'm on record as saying that I don't personally think that Crabtree will live up to his hype. I've said there's no way he's on par with Calvin, Andre Johnson or Fitz and those are guys he gets comparisons to frequently in terms of his skill set. I've said (before his injury) that I don't think he's worthy of the high draft status they were bestowing on him and that I don't think he starts to make anything resembling an impact in is rookie and likely his sophomore season. I'm also on record as saying I hope the Seahawks draft him and I'll now go on record as saying that if/when I'm wrong I hope you come and remind me of it (which i'm certain you will) or that when/if I'm right about Crabtree that you shut your whiny little pie-hole up (which is about as likely as Hell freezing over).

 

 

altho I feel like I have never really cared much for your attitude on these boards, I do definately agree with you on this one.

 

People spend wayyy too much time worrying about combine numbers and potential instead of if a kid is just a flat out player.

There are certain things you should be able to tell about a player from watching game tape and sometimes those things need to be valued more than a 40 time or the bench press.

 

Id really like to see scouts and GM's focus more on the body of work a player had in college as well as their competition.

 

*** as Flahawker said, everything does go into the hopper. I just feel too much emphasis is put into measurables.