Reasonable expectations for Jamaal Charles

[hlgaa26 0]

Hey guys, long time user of the site but first time joining the forums. I wanted to see what the general consensus is on Jamaal Charles. Are we worried about the ACL or does it not matter since it will be 12 months ago? Do we worry about Hillis being in KC or do we not care because Hillis was awful last year and we know Charles can still do well in a two-headed backfield? What is Romeo Crennel's history with runningbacks?

 

I would love to pull the trigger on JC in the middle of round 2 in my ppr mock draft, but there is certainly a fair amount of risk associated with this pick. It must be said though that Charles himself has said all of the right things so far in camp as far as being 100% and wanting to wreak havoc on the rest of the league upon his return. Hoping for some feedback, thanks guys.

[ralphster 274]

Welcome to the boards hlgagah.

 

I feel Charles will be healed by the time the season starts and I don't anticipate problems there unless he doesn't trust the knee. Hillis will cut into his production from a goal line/short yardage standpoint, and will ably start should Charles go down again. I don't know Crennel's history with running backs. Last year the Browns ran the ball 415 times though, so Charles should be in line for at least 180 rush attempts. (he had 230 rushes and 45 receptions in 2010, so I'm thinking CLE stays the same and Charles gets roughly 50% of offensive rush/running back receptions)

 

Peg that with Charles 6.1 career rush average and he's pulling down 1100 rushing yards. Let's be conservative going further and say he only catches 25 balls for an average of 7 yards each, so that's another 175 receiving yards. Add about 4-6 TDs to the mix.

 

1100 rush yards, 175 receiving yards, 5 TDs. 12-15 touches a game, 70-85 total yards per game, sprinkle of huge flash and TDs that we've come to expect from a talent like him. Solid RB2 in all formats.

 

That's my projection for Jamaal.

[Stewburtx8 67]

I'm probably a little higher on Charles than some. I'm not reaching for him in the 1st round or anything, but I'm definitely not shying away from taking him in the 2nd round as a high upside RB2. I'll admit, I've always been a huge fan. I think he may be the biggest gamebreaker at the RB position in the NFL.

 

It looks like Charles should be a full go on Day 1 of training camp. This seems like a really good sign. Obviously I'm going to pay attention to reports on how he looks in camp and hopefully see a little bit of him during the preseason. History probably isn't on his side as many RB's struggle their first year after an ACL tear. So how he looks and feels is very important. The injury last season was very fluky.

 

Even so, I just think Charles is a dynamic talent. If he's healthy, there is no comparison in my opinion between him and Peyton Hillis. Charles has to get touches. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chiefs keep Charles touches limited a little bit early, but I expect that number to increase as the season goes on. Chiefs new OC Brian Daboll was the OC last year in Miami when Reggie Bush had his breakout season. There are definitely some similarities between Charles and Bush. Bush got 216 carries last season with 43 receptions.

 

I think the projections on this site are pretty good on Charles. I'd project about 210 carries, 1100 yards, 40 receptions, 300 yards. TD's are tough to predict as I assume Hillis will be used at the goalline. But even when Thomas Jones was used in the same role, Charles scored 8 TD's in 2009 and 2010. So I think 7-8 TD's is a good projection. This puts him very similar to his 2009 season and makes him around a 225 point RB in PPR leagues, with upside for more if he gets the touches. But any negative news on him in the preseason could definitely change my opinion. So far so good..

[MDC 5,895]

I'm pretty much with the consensus here. I don't think Charles will get more than around 200-220 carries this season so it will be hard to count on more than 1,100 or so on the ground. But he'll add another 300 or so receiving. You could do a lot worse than 1,300-1,400 total yards with a #2 RB you're likely to get in the mid / late 2nd round.

 

The problem with Charles is that he never got many redzone touches. Nearly all of his scores come from a distance, and that limits his ceiling in fantasy. It's possible things change but I expect he's maxed out at 5-6 on the ground.

 

Still think he's a good value where you'll likely draft him. I'm picking 8 in a serpentine draft (14 teams) and I'd gladly take him at 22 overall.

[kmbryant09 1]

Hey guys, long time user of the site but first time joining the forums. I wanted to see what the general consensus is on Jamaal Charles. Are we worried about the ACL or does it not matter since it will be 12 months ago? Do we worry about Hillis being in KC or do we not care because Hillis was awful last year and we know Charles can still do well in a two-headed backfield? What is Romeo Crennel's history with runningbacks?

 

I would love to pull the trigger on JC in the middle of round 2 in my ppr mock draft, but there is certainly a fair amount of risk associated with this pick. It must be said though that Charles himself has said all of the right things so far in camp as far as being 100% and wanting to wreak havoc on the rest of the league upon his return. Hoping for some feedback, thanks guys.

You bring up some good points of discussion, one that I want to get into is the idea of Hillis eating into Charles' production.

 

First off, Jamaal Charles is insanely talented. If it wasn't for Todd Haley's stubbornness is 2010, Charles should have gotten ~300 carries, and likely would've flirted with 2,000 rushing yards. Instead, he gave Thomas Jones carry after carry after carry. At some point, the (new) coaches will/need to realize that Charles is too talented NOT to touch the ball 20 times a game. I understand he probably won't get that this year as he's returning from his ACL injury...But I'm confident his talent will trump Hillis by a pretty wide margin.

 

Second, I'm not worried about Hillis vulturing TD's. Charles only had 12 COMBINED rushing touchdowns in 2009-2010, and still finished as one of the most productive RB's those seasons (2nd half of 2009, all of 2010). Charles doesn't need short-yardage TD's to be a RB1, he's already proven that. He scores from far out. He averages ~6 yards per carry. And he does damage as a receiver out of the backfield.

 

Third, he's already proven to be productive in a timeshare. During Charles' 2010 breakout season, he only accumulated 41% of his teams' total carries! He wasn't even the leading rusher, attempts wise, on his team!

 

I wish Jamaal Charles would have the opportunity to accumulate 300+ carries, potentially 350+ touches in a season. But I doubt it will happen - especially with Hillis in town. But I've seen what Charles can do with 220 carries, and its pretty damn impressive. I haven't really put together any sort of rankings yet this offseason, but I imagine I'll have Charles in the 5th-8th range. I wouldn't take him in the middle-late 1st round over guys like Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Calvin, but I think I'd be more comfortable with Charles than McFadden (ALWAYS injured), Peterson (a few months behind Charles in his recovery), MJD (holdout, wear & tear, bad offense), Lynch (one year wonder who got paid), or Forte (holdout, injury questions). And for what it's worth, the rest of the AFC West looks like they'll have trouble against the run (particularly Denver & Oakland).

 

My early projections: 240 carries/1,320 yards/45 catches/350 receiving yards/8 total TD's.

[RLLD 3,455]

Charles is an exciting talent, and as a pure runner could certainly be considered in the top 5 in the NFL on sheer ability.

 

The issue with Charles early on was that he struggled with the complexity of the NFL offense. His athletic ability was substantial enough that missing the calls on the mike, spinner and gap adjustments were not that big of a deal. It certainly annoyed the OC, but Charles was still able to make plays. The bigger issue was the blocking on passing downs, and it took him a LONG time to fix that; and to his credit he actually did improve in that area substantially. Once the HC and OC saw his improvements, his play increased as it should have.

 

My only concern right now would be a regression in his ability to understand the adjustments and to pass block, so long as he can quickly restore those areas, the guy has a VERY high ceiling.

[kmbryant09 1]

Charles is an exciting talent, and as a pure runner could certainly be considered in the top 5 in the NFL on sheer ability.

 

The issue with Charles early on was that he struggled with the complexity of the NFL offense. His athletic ability was substantial enough that missing the calls on the mike, spinner and gap adjustments were not that big of a deal. It certainly annoyed the OC, but Charles was still able to make plays. The bigger issue was the blocking on passing downs, and it took him a LONG time to fix that; and to his credit he actually did improve in that area substantially. Once the HC and OC saw his improvements, his play increased as it should have.

 

My only concern right now would be a regression in his ability to understand the adjustments and to pass block, so long as he can quickly restore those areas, the guy has a VERY high ceiling.

Do we have to go over this again?

 

You couldn't have been more wrong on Charles entering the 2010 season. I think he did just fine with his assignments, the ones you were so worried about.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

I'm pretty much with the consensus here. I don't think Charles will get more than around 200-220 carries this season so it will be hard to count on more than 1,100 or so on the ground. But he'll add another 300 or so receiving. You could do a lot worse than 1,300-1,400 total yards with a #2 RB you're likely to get in the mid / late 2nd round.

 

The problem with Charles is that he never got many redzone touches. Nearly all of his scores come from a distance, and that limits his ceiling in fantasy. It's possible things change but I expect he's maxed out at 5-6 on the ground.

 

Still think he's a good value where you'll likely draft him. I'm picking 8 in a serpentine draft (14 teams) and I'd gladly take him at 22 overall.

Are you serious? What if Grahamm or Gronk are there at 14? Or one of the Elite QBs? Why would you rest the hopes of your team on a RB that tore his ACL last year? One that is very dependent on his ability to make cuts quickly? I just don't get it. I hope sooo much that him and AP are taken in the early second round in my redrafts. It will mean more room for my team to take over.

[The Football Guru 212]

Here's a list of recent notable backs coming back from ACL tears:

 

Terrell Davis, Broncos

Age at time of injury: 26

 

1998 season: 16 games, 2008 yards, 5.1 YPC, 21 TDs

2000 season: 5 games, 282 yards, 3.6 YPC, 2 TDs

 

 

Jamal Lewis, Ravens

Age at time of injury: 21

 

2000 season: 16 games, 1364 yards, 4.4 YPC, 6 TDs

2002 season: 16 games, 1327 yards, 4.3 YPC, 6 TDs

 

 

Edgerrin James, Colts

Age at time of injury: 23

 

2000 season: 16 games, 1709 yards, 5.5 YPC, 13 TDs

2002 season: 14 games, 989 yards, 3.6 YPC, 2 TDs

 

 

Deuce McAllister, Saints

Age at time of injury: 26

 

2004 season: 14 games, 1074 yards, 4.0 YPC, 9 TDs

2006 season: 15 games, 1057 yards, 4.3 YPC, 10 TDs

 

 

Ronnie Brown, Dolphins

Age at time of injury: 25

 

2006 season: 13 games, 1008 yards, 4.2 YPC, 5 TDs

2008 season: 16 games, 916 yards, 4.3 YPC, 10 TDs

 

 

Kevin Smith, Lions

Age at time of injury: 22

 

2008 season: 16 games, 976 yards, 3.4 YPC, 4 TDs

2010 season: 6 games, 133 yards, 3.9 YPC, 0 TDs

 

 

There's any number of issues that should give fantasy owners pause when it comes to RBs coming off this injury. The two that come immediately to my mind are: 1) when will the RB fully trust his knee again and 2) to what extent will the coaching staff "protect" him? KC went out and drafted Cyrus Gray. He's not the same back that Peyton Hillis or Charles are (obviously), but I'm pretty sure he wasn't taken with idea that he would replace Hillis after this season. I'd bet he was insurance against a 80% Charles this year. I won't be getting to my Chiefs team projecion until for another 1-2 weeks, but I can't see Charles living up to a second-round fantasy pick this season.

 

On the plus side, the last three backs on this list are also the most recent and their YPC increased the year of their return. Of course, in each case, they didn't return to a featured role either.

[Portis26 0]

Here's a list of recent notable backs coming back from ACL tears:

 

Terrell Davis, Broncos

Age at time of injury: 26

 

1998 season: 16 games, 2008 yards, 5.1 YPC, 21 TDs

2000 season: 5 games, 282 yards, 3.6 YPC, 2 TDs

 

 

Jamal Lewis, Ravens

Age at time of injury: 21

 

2000 season: 16 games, 1364 yards, 4.4 YPC, 6 TDs

2002 season: 16 games, 1327 yards, 4.3 YPC, 6 TDs

 

 

Edgerrin James, Colts

Age at time of injury: 23

 

2000 season: 16 games, 1709 yards, 5.5 YPC, 13 TDs

2002 season: 14 games, 989 yards, 3.6 YPC, 2 TDs

 

 

Deuce McAllister, Saints

Age at time of injury: 26

 

2004 season: 14 games, 1074 yards, 4.0 YPC, 9 TDs

2006 season: 15 games, 1057 yards, 4.3 YPC, 10 TDs

 

 

Ronnie Brown, Dolphins

Age at time of injury: 25

 

2006 season: 13 games, 1008 yards, 4.2 YPC, 5 TDs

2008 season: 16 games, 916 yards, 4.3 YPC, 10 TDs

 

 

Kevin Smith, Lions

Age at time of injury: 22

 

2008 season: 16 games, 976 yards, 3.4 YPC, 4 TDs

2010 season: 6 games, 133 yards, 3.9 YPC, 0 TDs

 

 

There's any number of issues that should give fantasy owners pause when it comes to RBs coming off this injury. The two that come immediately to my mind are: 1) when will the RB fully trust his knee again and 2) to what extent will the coaching staff "protect" him? KC went out and drafted Cyrus Gray. He's not the same back that Peyton Hillis or Charles are (obviously), but I'm pretty sure he wasn't taken with idea that he would replace Hillis after this season. I'd bet he was insurance against a 80% Charles this year. I won't be getting to my Chiefs team projecion until for another 1-2 weeks, but I can't see Charles living up to a second-round fantasy pick this season.

 

On the plus side, the last three backs on this list are also the most recent and their YPC increased the year of their return. Of course, in each case, they didn't return to a featured role either.

Good info on other backs

[MDC 5,895]

Are you serious? What if Grahamm or Gronk are there at 14? Or one of the Elite QBs? Why would you rest the hopes of your team on a RB that tore his ACL last year? One that is very dependent on his ability to make cuts quickly? I just don't get it. I hope sooo much that him and AP are taken in the early second round in my redrafts. It will mean more room for my team to take over.

 

If I'm picking 8 in a serpentine my second pick will be around 22. At that point I doubt I'm getting a top 3-4 QB so yeah, I'd likely take a solid 2 RB over even Graham or Gronk.

[hlgaa26 0]

Here's a list of recent notable backs coming back from ACL tears:

 

Terrell Davis, Broncos

Age at time of injury: 26

 

1998 season: 16 games, 2008 yards, 5.1 YPC, 21 TDs

2000 season: 5 games, 282 yards, 3.6 YPC, 2 TDs

 

 

Jamal Lewis, Ravens

Age at time of injury: 21

 

2000 season: 16 games, 1364 yards, 4.4 YPC, 6 TDs

2002 season: 16 games, 1327 yards, 4.3 YPC, 6 TDs

 

 

Edgerrin James, Colts

Age at time of injury: 23

 

2000 season: 16 games, 1709 yards, 5.5 YPC, 13 TDs

2002 season: 14 games, 989 yards, 3.6 YPC, 2 TDs

 

 

Deuce McAllister, Saints

Age at time of injury: 26

 

2004 season: 14 games, 1074 yards, 4.0 YPC, 9 TDs

2006 season: 15 games, 1057 yards, 4.3 YPC, 10 TDs

 

 

Ronnie Brown, Dolphins

Age at time of injury: 25

 

2006 season: 13 games, 1008 yards, 4.2 YPC, 5 TDs

2008 season: 16 games, 916 yards, 4.3 YPC, 10 TDs

 

 

Kevin Smith, Lions

Age at time of injury: 22

 

2008 season: 16 games, 976 yards, 3.4 YPC, 4 TDs

2010 season: 6 games, 133 yards, 3.9 YPC, 0 TDs

 

 

There's any number of issues that should give fantasy owners pause when it comes to RBs coming off this injury. The two that come immediately to my mind are: 1) when will the RB fully trust his knee again and 2) to what extent will the coaching staff "protect" him? KC went out and drafted Cyrus Gray. He's not the same back that Peyton Hillis or Charles are (obviously), but I'm pretty sure he wasn't taken with idea that he would replace Hillis after this season. I'd bet he was insurance against a 80% Charles this year. I won't be getting to my Chiefs team projecion until for another 1-2 weeks, but I can't see Charles living up to a second-round fantasy pick this season.

 

On the plus side, the last three backs on this list are also the most recent and their YPC increased the year of their return. Of course, in each case, they didn't return to a featured role either.

 

great, yet semi-worrying info. ive really been looking for info like this. Any other RBs who have suffered from torn ACLs you can think of? Very helpful and certainly something to think about.

[PackYourNut 47]

Good info, but when did the injuries take place? Charles blew his knee in September... that's WAY different then blowing it in December when it comes to recovery!

[RLLD 3,455]

Do we have to go over this again?

 

You couldn't have been more wrong on Charles entering the 2010 season. I think he did just fine with his assignments, the ones you were so worried about.

 

 

Actually, I nailed it directly, but facts have never really been part of your position relative to Charles.

[kmbryant09 1]

Actually, I nailed it directly, but facts have never really been part of your position relative to Charles.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. Keep up your delusional argument

[RLLD 3,455]

Whatever helps you sleep at night. Keep up your delusional argument

 

Link

 

The reason at the time was Charles wasn't the best blocking back. The Chiefs didn't want to send him out there if he wasn't able to pick up a blitz because, with most teams, the Chiefs wanted to protect their quarterback.

 

Now? Haley says Charles' protection issues aren't the problem that they once were.

 

"The number one area that he just continues to make progress in is in protection," Haley said on Thursday. "I think with a year and three quarters under his belt of understanding protections has really helped him. That is an area early on that there wasn’t a great feeling of trust early on in that area and that is an area that our backs have to be really good in."

 

 

 

You see, there is a difference between mindlessly watching the game, and critically analyzing a player without passion; perhaps having coached this game, i can simply better identify it.

 

[kmbryant09 1]

Link

 

 

 

 

You see, there is a difference between mindlessly watching the game, and critically analyzing a player without passion; perhaps having coached this game, i can simply better identify it.

 

"Jones is clearly the back with better vision and understanding of reading the blocks and play pace, a fact apparently the coaches have recognized as well. Charles may or may not figure it out, given time. But right now i would play Jones over him on his sheer ability to individually exploit the opportunities his team is able to provide...That is my opinion as to why Jones is the better RB"

 

"and I think Jones is simply better at reading, finding and hitting the holes....JMHO"

 

"and I will be right.....once again....because Jones IS the better RB...Because Jones outplayed him"

 

Those were just some of your quotes comparing Jamaal Charles and Thomas Jones back in 2010.

 

Would love to hear your delusional theory as to how you predicted Charles' breakout. In that thread from 2010, 9 out of 10 posts/posters were about how talented Charles was and how he needs to get more carries that Thomas 3.0 ypc Jones. You were pretty much THE ONLY ONE who had reservations about Charles. I'll repeat - THE ONLY ONE with reservations about Charles.

 

So Charles blows up in 2010, and you think you look like a genius?

[Stewburtx8 67]

Please don't start this stupid argument again.

 

We all know Thomas Jones was a better RB than Jamaal Charles.

[unclemercy 51]

Charles is an exciting talent, and as a pure runner could certainly be considered in the top 5 in the NFL on sheer ability.

 

The issue with Charles early on was that he struggled with the complexity of the NFL offense. His athletic ability was substantial enough that missing the calls on the mike, spinner and gap adjustments were not that big of a deal. It certainly annoyed the OC, but Charles was still able to make plays. The bigger issue was the blocking on passing downs, and it took him a LONG time to fix that; and to his credit he actually did improve in that area substantially. Once the HC and OC saw his improvements, his play increased as it should have.

 

My only concern right now would be a regression in his ability to understand the adjustments and to pass block, so long as he can quickly restore those areas, the guy has a VERY high ceiling.

 

 

surprised you touched this thread.

[RLLD 3,455]

"Jones is clearly the back with better vision and understanding of reading the blocks and play pace, a fact apparently the coaches have recognized as well. Charles may or may not figure it out, given time. But right now i would play Jones over him on his sheer ability to individually exploit the opportunities his team is able to provide...That is my opinion as to why Jones is the better RB"

 

"and I think Jones is simply better at reading, finding and hitting the holes....JMHO"

 

"and I will be right.....once again....because Jones IS the better RB...Because Jones outplayed him"

 

Those were just some of your quotes comparing Jamaal Charles and Thomas Jones back in 2010.

 

Would love to hear your delusional theory as to how you predicted Charles' breakout. In that thread from 2010, 9 out of 10 posts/posters were about how talented Charles was and how he needs to get more carries that Thomas 3.0 ypc Jones. You were pretty much THE ONLY ONE who had reservations about Charles. I'll repeat - THE ONLY ONE with reservations about Charles.

 

So Charles blows up in 2010, and you think you look like a genius?

 

I posted all that, and more, which you conveniently left out, and the contextual removal certainly suits you...

 

So, let's take a look at this further. Apparently the coaches agreed with me, and Jones split time with Charles as I stated. Jones was the better RB, he outplayed Charles, hence my assertion which was then validated later in the season by the coaching staff themselves.

 

Now, moving on to predicting his breakout, which I also did, as I felt that Charles would eventually become more than just a runner, but a true running back, this also happened, but was bloody easy to see. I had reservations that stated Jones would split carries because he was the better running back, which he was for at least half of the season. Now that Charles managed to figure out how to pickup blocks during passing downs; even reading the gap adjustments, sure he is the better back.

 

Ignoring the facts is curious, even for you.

 

Your fallacists approach rejecting the truth simply because you object to the explanation is a common failure, one you execute consistently. So the question then becomes, do you also disagree with the coaches reason for doing exactly what I said they would do? You can take that up with them.

 

You lack the ability to adequately measure talent, and maybe you are angry about that, or perhaps you are angry that the coaches eventually admitted what I stated all along they would do. Does not truly matter, your red herring at the end makes no sense at all. Just another desperate attempt.

[RLLD 3,455]

Posted 25 August 2010 - 01:36 PM

As of right now, Jones is the better back, and would enjoy more success than Charles. Should Jones get injured behind that impersonation of an O-line then Charles would likely step in, but would fare no better, and likely worse, than Jones.

Link

 

Wow, yes I did say that Jones was the better Running back, and he was. The coaches support this assertion noting what I also would note was a concern about pass blocking.

 

 

 

Posted 10 September 2010 - 07:48 AM

This is purely my own individual assessment of what I see in them each on the field. Their running style, how they recognize the blocks forming and unforming in front of them, their "pace" as the play unfolds and how well they judge the play in terms of exploiting holes, or not.

 

Jones is clearly the back with better vision and understanding of reading the blocks and play pace, a fact apparently the coaches have recognized as well. Charles may or may not figure it out, given time. But right now i would play Jones over him on his sheer ability to individually exploit the opportunities his team is able to provide.

 

Beyond the blatantly obvious issues with pass blocking that I saw, and that the coaches would later confirm, Charles was still making mistakes on the running plays and their design too.

 

 

 

Posted 20 September 2010 - 09:44 AM

We can agree to disagree, first on your "guess" and secondly on your misinterpretation. Saying that Jones reads the blocks and timing better does not make him more talented than Charles, more experienced certainly, but as I have stated numerous times, Charles has more natural physical ability.

 

Just in case you go for another red herring, lets get ahead of the pathetic attempt to suggest that I ever stated Jones was the better athlete; sorry to ruin that one for you before you even got a chance at it.

 

 

 

Darn shame that Dan did not get your memo to ignore reality

 

You're right that he's getting the higher percentage of the carries . . . which I concede I thought would have shifted by now. Jones is also showing that he still has something left. But you are not right in saying that he is the better back. He simply is not. As a previous poster said, Charles takes Jones' long run to the house, and there isn't a guy within 10 yards. But I guess this proves your point of his being "better", because he had a great game boosted by that run.

 

 

 

I decided at one point to even give you a hint about where Charles was facing issues by referencing Lawrence Phillips, who ended Steve Young's career, but that was a misguided attempt; you have to understand football to make that connection:

 

As I stated from the start, Jones was the better back but Charles would eventually emerge, and is nearly there.

 

Certainly if one has drafted Charles then this horrible injustice is simple unpalatable.

 

Unfortunately, the real world does not always unfold in support of our "fantasy". Charles is nearly the better RB, as I said he would eventually be. In the coming weeks you will see the carries and touches favor him as he is finally doing all of the things an NFL running back should do.

 

If talent and explosiveness alone were all it took, Lawrence Phillips would have had a nice long career....hell, if Lawrence Phillips could do more than churn out yards, Steve Young may have had a few more years.

 

It's the difference between knowing what you are talking about and wanting what you believe to be true.

Yes and no.

 

He is getting better, but he still has lapses. His team needs him on the field on 3rd downs, but if he keeps focking up those blocks, his arse will be sitting......

 

That aside, he did get more patient as the game vs the Raven's unfolded, he seems to get into the flow of the offense much faster than at the start of the season.

 

Of course, people such as yourself will continue to pretend that I never said this....

 

 

 

Yes that's right, he needed to improve the blocking on passing downs....

 

 

 

So to recap. IF Charles comes back with the same skills he learned over time and can properly read blocks, hit the proper holes as per the design of the offense, and pickup the blocks on passing downs, he is a top 3 RB, if not he may very well disappoint. I have to wait for some preseason games to let you know how well he is doing.

 

Then you all can cry and whine about how mean ole RLLD is saying meany things about your object of man love once again......

[RLLD 3,455]

Would love to hear your delusional theory as to how you predicted Charles' breakout. In that thread from 2010, 9 out of 10 posts/posters were about how talented Charles was and how he needs to get more carries that Thomas 3.0 ypc Jones. You were pretty much THE ONLY ONE who had reservations about Charles. I'll repeat - THE ONLY ONE with reservations about Charles.

 

So Charles blows up in 2010, and you think you look like a genius?

 

 

Just a quick correction on that one, the coaches in the article also had reservations about Charles, so i wasn't completely alone, at least among people that know what they are doing.

 

Charles did what I said he would in 2010, your anger is misplaced.

[kmbryant09 1]

RLLD - I don't even know what piece-of-crap comments to even quote, so I'll just make a few points.

 

You keep insisting that Thomas Jones was outplaying Jamaal Charles, specifically in the first half of 2010. So let's take a look, shall we? Through 8 games:

Thomas Jones - 137 carries/570 yards/4.16 yards per carry 5 catches/40 yards/3 total touchdowns.

Jamaal Charles - 127 carries/760 yards/5.98 yards per carry 26 catches/318 yards/3 total touchdowns.

 

So Jamaal Charles accumulated nearly 200 more rushing yards despite getting 10 fewer carries - averaging nearly 2 yards more per carry - THINK ABOUT THAT - ON AVERAGE, EVERY TIME JAMAAL CHARLES GOT A HANDOFF INSTEAD OF THOMAS JONES, THE 2010 KANSAS CITY CHIEFS WERE 2 YARDS BETTER...EVERY SINGLE TIME.

 

Cue some stupid attempt by you to spit out some football terms to make it sound like you know better than everyone else. He wasn't reading his gaps right, blah blah blah.

 

You also seem to think that you predicted Charles' breakout. You did not. The closest you came to that was by calling him talented, and questioning whether he would ever pick up the necessary studies of the game to become a full-time RB.

 

You also seem to think that your point is validated, or proven correctly, because the coaches agreed with you. First off, its not like you assessed the situation prior to coaches' decisions. It's not like in July you predicted that T. Jones would get 65% of the carries because Charles simply doesn't get it. You saw that the coaches were featuring Jones over Charles. Doesn't prove your point. It's also funny that you would WANT to agree with Todd Haley, or that somehow his opinion validates yours. Todd Haley got fired. He's gone. No longer the Head Coach of the Kansas City Chiefs. It was a very hot topic around the NFL, through the media, the Chiefs' fans,and fantasy footballers all over the world. Why the hell would Todd Haley insist on giving Thomas 3.0 ypc Jones more touched than Jamaal 6.0 ypc Charles. Also - this whole topic started 2 years ago BECAUSE Haley wouldn't give Charles more touches. That's what we're debating, you can't try and use that point to prove your argument. We were arguing whether the decision was right or wrong.

 

Anyways, a few points about just how good Charles was in 2010 and why he should have seen the field more:

 

-Not a short yardage back? Jamaal Charles rushed for a 1st down on 30.4% of his carries - highest mark in the NFL.

 

-You didn't think Jamaal Charles could block? Cheifs ran the 3rd most 2-TE sets in the league...aka they had blockers if they really needed them.

 

-Thought Charles was a homerun hitter? He had a 56% success rate - 3rd highest mark in the NFL. That statistic measures the % of successful running plays, or consistency.

 

-Didn't think he was an all-around RB? He was one of a handful of RB's to put up a positive DVOA on every down. Thomas Jones? Racked up a negative DVOA on every down.

 

Didn't think he could hold up? Charles averaged 6.9 yards per carry between his 11th and 20th attempts - 2nd highest in the league.

 

None of these numbers are/were a fluke. You make it sound like Jamaal Charles finally turned the corner some time in 2010, and went from bust to boom overnight. You keep pointing to 2 things that Charles needed to improve - gap recognition and pass blocking. First off, I don't give a f*ck if he's hitting the right or wrong gaps - he was doing so 2 full yards per carry BETTER than Thomas Jones. Secondly, Charles has always been used in passing downs. He first saw time in the league as a 3rd down back, and caught 80+ passes in hi 26 games from 2009-2010. Thomas Jones had 24.

 

At no point in 2010 was Thomas Jones a better RB than Jamaal Charles. No point. Stop kidding yourself. You are a very intelligent fantasy footballer. It's not a perfect science. Everyone gets things wrong from time to time. This time, you were flat out wrong. Which reminds me, at one point you even said that if you were proven wrong (about Jones being a better back and questioning whether Charles would ever emerge), you'd gladly admit that you were wrong. Since you've been beating your chest like you were 100% correct, what would it have taken for you to be wrong???? Charles to be cut and Thomas Jones selected to the ProBowl?

[jgcrawfish 232]

RLLD - I don't even know what piece-of-crap comments to even quote, so I'll just make a few points.

 

You keep insisting that Thomas Jones was outplaying Jamaal Charles, specifically in the first half of 2010. So let's take a look, shall we? Through 8 games:

Thomas Jones - 137 carries/570 yards/4.16 yards per carry 5 catches/40 yards/3 total touchdowns.

Jamaal Charles - 127 carries/760 yards/5.98 yards per carry 26 catches/318 yards/3 total touchdowns.

 

So Jamaal Charles accumulated nearly 200 more rushing yards despite getting 10 fewer carries - averaging nearly 2 yards more per carry - THINK ABOUT THAT - ON AVERAGE, EVERY TIME JAMAAL CHARLES GOT A HANDOFF INSTEAD OF THOMAS JONES, THE 2010 KANSAS CITY CHIEFS WERE 2 YARDS BETTER...EVERY SINGLE TIME.

 

Cue some stupid attempt by you to spit out some football terms to make it sound like you know better than everyone else. He wasn't reading his gaps right, blah blah blah.

 

You also seem to think that you predicted Charles' breakout. You did not. The closest you came to that was by calling him talented, and questioning whether he would ever pick up the necessary studies of the game to become a full-time RB.

 

You also seem to think that your point is validated, or proven correctly, because the coaches agreed with you. First off, its not like you assessed the situation prior to coaches' decisions. It's not like in July you predicted that T. Jones would get 65% of the carries because Charles simply doesn't get it. You saw that the coaches were featuring Jones over Charles. Doesn't prove your point. It's also funny that you would WANT to agree with Todd Haley, or that somehow his opinion validates yours. Todd Haley got fired. He's gone. No longer the Head Coach of the Kansas City Chiefs. It was a very hot topic around the NFL, through the media, the Chiefs' fans,and fantasy footballers all over the world. Why the hell would Todd Haley insist on giving Thomas 3.0 ypc Jones more touched than Jamaal 6.0 ypc Charles. Also - this whole topic started 2 years ago BECAUSE Haley wouldn't give Charles more touches. That's what we're debating, you can't try and use that point to prove your argument. We were arguing whether the decision was right or wrong.

 

Anyways, a few points about just how good Charles was in 2010 and why he should have seen the field more:

 

-Not a short yardage back? Jamaal Charles rushed for a 1st down on 30.4% of his carries - highest mark in the NFL.

 

-You didn't think Jamaal Charles could block? Cheifs ran the 3rd most 2-TE sets in the league...aka they had blockers if they really needed them.

 

-Thought Charles was a homerun hitter? He had a 56% success rate - 3rd highest mark in the NFL. That statistic measures the % of successful running plays, or consistency.

 

-Didn't think he was an all-around RB? He was one of a handful of RB's to put up a positive DVOA on every down. Thomas Jones? Racked up a negative DVOA on every down.

 

Didn't think he could hold up? Charles averaged 6.9 yards per carry between his 11th and 20th attempts - 2nd highest in the league.

 

None of these numbers are/were a fluke. You make it sound like Jamaal Charles finally turned the corner some time in 2010, and went from bust to boom overnight. You keep pointing to 2 things that Charles needed to improve - gap recognition and pass blocking. First off, I don't give a f*ck if he's hitting the right or wrong gaps - he was doing so 2 full yards per carry BETTER than Thomas Jones. Secondly, Charles has always been used in passing downs. He first saw time in the league as a 3rd down back, and caught 80+ passes in hi 26 games from 2009-2010. Thomas Jones had 24.

 

At no point in 2010 was Thomas Jones a better RB than Jamaal Charles. No point. Stop kidding yourself. You are a very intelligent fantasy footballer. It's not a perfect science. Everyone gets things wrong from time to time. This time, you were flat out wrong. Which reminds me, at one point you even said that if you were proven wrong (about Jones being a better back and questioning whether Charles would ever emerge), you'd gladly admit that you were wrong. Since you've been beating your chest like you were 100% correct, what would it have taken for you to be wrong???? Charles to be cut and Thomas Jones selected to the ProBowl?

 

That may leave a mark.

[Stewburtx8 67]

RLLD - I don't even know what piece-of-crap comments to even quote, so I'll just make a few points.

 

You keep insisting that Thomas Jones was outplaying Jamaal Charles, specifically in the first half of 2010. So let's take a look, shall we? Through 8 games:

Thomas Jones - 137 carries/570 yards/4.16 yards per carry 5 catches/40 yards/3 total touchdowns.

Jamaal Charles - 127 carries/760 yards/5.98 yards per carry 26 catches/318 yards/3 total touchdowns.

 

So Jamaal Charles accumulated nearly 200 more rushing yards despite getting 10 fewer carries - averaging nearly 2 yards more per carry - THINK ABOUT THAT - ON AVERAGE, EVERY TIME JAMAAL CHARLES GOT A HANDOFF INSTEAD OF THOMAS JONES, THE 2010 KANSAS CITY CHIEFS WERE 2 YARDS BETTER...EVERY SINGLE TIME.

 

Cue some stupid attempt by you to spit out some football terms to make it sound like you know better than everyone else. He wasn't reading his gaps right, blah blah blah.

 

You also seem to think that you predicted Charles' breakout. You did not. The closest you came to that was by calling him talented, and questioning whether he would ever pick up the necessary studies of the game to become a full-time RB.

 

You also seem to think that your point is validated, or proven correctly, because the coaches agreed with you. First off, its not like you assessed the situation prior to coaches' decisions. It's not like in July you predicted that T. Jones would get 65% of the carries because Charles simply doesn't get it. You saw that the coaches were featuring Jones over Charles. Doesn't prove your point. It's also funny that you would WANT to agree with Todd Haley, or that somehow his opinion validates yours. Todd Haley got fired. He's gone. No longer the Head Coach of the Kansas City Chiefs. It was a very hot topic around the NFL, through the media, the Chiefs' fans,and fantasy footballers all over the world. Why the hell would Todd Haley insist on giving Thomas 3.0 ypc Jones more touched than Jamaal 6.0 ypc Charles. Also - this whole topic started 2 years ago BECAUSE Haley wouldn't give Charles more touches. That's what we're debating, you can't try and use that point to prove your argument. We were arguing whether the decision was right or wrong.

 

Anyways, a few points about just how good Charles was in 2010 and why he should have seen the field more:

 

-Not a short yardage back? Jamaal Charles rushed for a 1st down on 30.4% of his carries - highest mark in the NFL.

 

-You didn't think Jamaal Charles could block? Cheifs ran the 3rd most 2-TE sets in the league...aka they had blockers if they really needed them.

 

-Thought Charles was a homerun hitter? He had a 56% success rate - 3rd highest mark in the NFL. That statistic measures the % of successful running plays, or consistency.

 

-Didn't think he was an all-around RB? He was one of a handful of RB's to put up a positive DVOA on every down. Thomas Jones? Racked up a negative DVOA on every down.

 

Didn't think he could hold up? Charles averaged 6.9 yards per carry between his 11th and 20th attempts - 2nd highest in the league.

 

None of these numbers are/were a fluke. You make it sound like Jamaal Charles finally turned the corner some time in 2010, and went from bust to boom overnight. You keep pointing to 2 things that Charles needed to improve - gap recognition and pass blocking. First off, I don't give a f*ck if he's hitting the right or wrong gaps - he was doing so 2 full yards per carry BETTER than Thomas Jones. Secondly, Charles has always been used in passing downs. He first saw time in the league as a 3rd down back, and caught 80+ passes in hi 26 games from 2009-2010. Thomas Jones had 24.

 

At no point in 2010 was Thomas Jones a better RB than Jamaal Charles. No point. Stop kidding yourself. You are a very intelligent fantasy footballer. It's not a perfect science. Everyone gets things wrong from time to time. This time, you were flat out wrong. Which reminds me, at one point you even said that if you were proven wrong (about Jones being a better back and questioning whether Charles would ever emerge), you'd gladly admit that you were wrong. Since you've been beating your chest like you were 100% correct, what would it have taken for you to be wrong???? Charles to be cut and Thomas Jones selected to the ProBowl?

 

 

WOW well done. I typed out a response to RLLD and then reminded myself to stay out of this discussion after how painful it was 2 years ago to try to discuss with him.

 

But you hit most of the points I was going to make. I don't care if Jamaal Charles was running backwards. I don't care if he ran back to his own end zone on every carry and then came forward to average 6 yards per carry. I don't care if he did a ballerina dance, followed by a triple axel, and then stuck the landing. If he averaged TWO more yards per carry than Thomas Jones, it doesn't matter what holes he was hitting. He clearly was still more productive. I also found it funny that Todd Haley and a team that had 3 offensive coordinators in 3 years somehow validates that Thomas Jones was the better player.

[onejayhawk 3]

Please don't start this stupid argument again.

 

We all know Thomas Jones was a better RB than Jamaal Charles.

Thomas Jones is relevant though. He was the 2010 team's leader in rushs: 245-230. His YPC was 3.7, and JC had 6.4, which accounts for the difference in yardage. This is a team philosophy. They want to protect Jamaal Charles. Expect Peyton hillis to get closer to 250 carries than he will.

 

So, the real question is what will JC get on his YPC. 2010 was historic. He was fractions from the NFL record, which had not been approached for decades. If he is merely outstanding, say 5.0 YPC, you cut his output to 1150 yards.

 

J

[The Moz 69]

So Glad I didn't draft him now. Almost did at 2.2

 

 

Hillis not only will be the guy 5 yards and in but will get series of his own as the main back and is the better blocker and receiever so I can see them actually pulling Charles on pass plays.

 

Charles if he is back maybe 1000 and 5 TD's with 30 rec. for another 250.

 

It isn't thre injury that scares me with him it's Hillis

[onejayhawk 3]

WOW well done. I typed out a response to RLLD and then reminded myself to stay out of this discussion after how painful it was 2 years ago to try to discuss with him.

 

But you hit most of the points I was going to make. I don't care if Jamaal Charles was running backwards. I don't care if he ran back to his own end zone on every carry and then came forward to average 6 yards per carry. I don't care if he did a ballerina dance, followed by a triple axel, and then stuck the landing. If he averaged TWO more yards per carry than Thomas Jones, it doesn't matter what holes he was hitting. He clearly was still more productive. I also found it funny that Todd Haley and a team that had 3 offensive coordinators in 3 years somehow validates that Thomas Jones was the better player.

Not two YPC, almost three, 2.7 to be exact. Thomas Jones was the GL back.

 

So Glad I didn't draft him now. Almost did at 2.2

 

 

Hillis not only will be the guy 5 yards and in but will get series of his own as the main back and is the better blocker and receiever so I can see them actually pulling Charles on pass plays.

 

Charles if he is back maybe 1000 and 5 TD's with 30 rec. for another 250.

 

It isn't thre injury that scares me with him it's Hillis

 

What gives you the idea that Hillis is the better receiver? Both are very good. If JC is pulled for a receiving threat, it will be Dexter McCluster, who can function as a true WR.

 

J

[Stewburtx8 67]

Not two YPC, almost three, 2.7 to be exact. Thomas Jones was the GL back.

 

 

 

What gives you the idea that Hillis is the better receiver? Both are very good. If JC is pulled for a receiving threat, it will be Dexter McCluster, who can function as a true WR.

 

J

 

 

I was responding to Kmbryant who was just referencing Charles vs Jones during the first half of 2010. His number showed Charles averaged 2 more yards per carry than Jones through the first 8 games. I know that difference increased as the year wore on. Yes, Thomas Jones was the GL back. Jamaal Charles has never really got goalline carries. But he can score from anywhere on the field. He had 8 TD's in both 2009 and 2010. Hillis being the goalline back doesn't really CHANGE anything.

 

I understand what Moz is saying. Hillis is a very good pass catcher and has great hands. BUT, I highly disagree that he is necessarily a better receiver than Charles or that Charles will get pulled on passing downs. Again, Jamaal Charles is one of the best game breakers in the NFL, if not the best. You want the ball in his hands. Hillis catches the ball very well but can't do as much after the catch as Jamaal Charles can.

[The Moz 69]

I was responding to Kmbryant who was just referencing Charles vs Jones during the first half of 2010. His number showed Charles averaged 2 more yards per carry than Jones through the first 8 games. I know that difference increased as the year wore on. Yes, Thomas Jones was the GL back. Jamaal Charles has never really got goalline carries. But he can score from anywhere on the field. He had 8 TD's in both 2009 and 2010. Hillis being the goalline back doesn't really CHANGE anything.

 

I understand what Moz is saying. Hillis is a very good pass catcher and has great hands. BUT, I highly disagree that he is necessarily a better receiver than Charles or that Charles will get pulled on passing downs. Again, Jamaal Charles is one of the best game breakers in the NFL, if not the best. You want the ball in his hands. Hillis catches the ball very well but can't do as much after the catch as Jamaal Charles can.

 

My reasoning on Hillis "maybe" being a passing down back is more becasue of his blocking and being able to catch the ball as well. Charles is really good too and is a game breaker with his speed.

 

How I would use both...

 

Charles on Most 1-2 downs giving Hillis - 3 series a game as the feature back on 1-2 downs. On 3rd an short - Hillis 3rd n reasonable 3-8 yards - CHarles 3rd and long - Hillis for his blocking. 5 yards and in to the GL Hillis IMO is a given.

[onejayhawk 3]

My reasoning on Hillis "maybe" being a passing down back is more becasue of his blocking and being able to catch the ball as well. Charles is really good too and is a game breaker with his speed.

 

How I would use both...

 

Charles on Most 1-2 downs giving Hillis - 3 series a game as the feature back on 1-2 downs. On 3rd an short - Hillis 3rd n reasonable 3-8 yards - CHarles 3rd and long - Hillis for his blocking. 5 yards and in to the GL Hillis IMO is a given.

The blocking is an aspect of Thomas Jones game that people forget because it is fantasy irrelevant. With a QB like Cassel, picking up blitzes is critical.

 

J

[RLLD 3,455]

My reasoning on Hillis "maybe" being a passing down back is more becasue of his blocking and being able to catch the ball as well. Charles is really good too and is a game breaker with his speed.

 

How I would use both...

 

Charles on Most 1-2 downs giving Hillis - 3 series a game as the feature back on 1-2 downs. On 3rd an short - Hillis 3rd n reasonable 3-8 yards - CHarles 3rd and long - Hillis for his blocking. 5 yards and in to the GL Hillis IMO is a given.

 

You can't telegraph your plays though. You have to mix it up in order to ensure the defense is not keying into formations and anticipating plays. If Charles does not come in ready to play as a running back, not just a talented runner, then Hillis will get more and more running plays as well and keep biting into Charles's production.

 

We had a small running back years ago who was just intensely fast and shifty, so hard to catch, but could not block well and as a result he gave way when passing came up, but we could not afford to only use the better blocking back on passing plays, he had to be in on formations where he ran as well, to keep the defense honest.

[Mike MacGregor 20]

Here's a list of recent notable backs coming back from ACL tears:

 

Terrell Davis, Broncos

Age at time of injury: 26

 

1998 season: 16 games, 2008 yards, 5.1 YPC, 21 TDs

2000 season: 5 games, 282 yards, 3.6 YPC, 2 TDs

 

 

Jamal Lewis, Ravens

Age at time of injury: 21

 

2000 season: 16 games, 1364 yards, 4.4 YPC, 6 TDs

2002 season: 16 games, 1327 yards, 4.3 YPC, 6 TDs

 

 

Edgerrin James, Colts

Age at time of injury: 23

 

2000 season: 16 games, 1709 yards, 5.5 YPC, 13 TDs

2002 season: 14 games, 989 yards, 3.6 YPC, 2 TDs

 

 

Deuce McAllister, Saints

Age at time of injury: 26

 

2004 season: 14 games, 1074 yards, 4.0 YPC, 9 TDs

2006 season: 15 games, 1057 yards, 4.3 YPC, 10 TDs

 

 

Ronnie Brown, Dolphins

Age at time of injury: 25

 

2006 season: 13 games, 1008 yards, 4.2 YPC, 5 TDs

2008 season: 16 games, 916 yards, 4.3 YPC, 10 TDs

 

 

Kevin Smith, Lions

Age at time of injury: 22

 

2008 season: 16 games, 976 yards, 3.4 YPC, 4 TDs

2010 season: 6 games, 133 yards, 3.9 YPC, 0 TDs

 

 

There's any number of issues that should give fantasy owners pause when it comes to RBs coming off this injury. The two that come immediately to my mind are: 1) when will the RB fully trust his knee again and 2) to what extent will the coaching staff "protect" him? KC went out and drafted Cyrus Gray. He's not the same back that Peyton Hillis or Charles are (obviously), but I'm pretty sure he wasn't taken with idea that he would replace Hillis after this season. I'd bet he was insurance against a 80% Charles this year. I won't be getting to my Chiefs team projecion until for another 1-2 weeks, but I can't see Charles living up to a second-round fantasy pick this season.

 

On the plus side, the last three backs on this list are also the most recent and their YPC increased the year of their return. Of course, in each case, they didn't return to a featured role either.

 

So Doug, half of these guys you mention did as well in the comeback as their season prior to injury. And wouldn't you say a normal turnover rate for RB (no injury, just year to year) is about 50%? I'm actually reading this as a positive for Charles, especially given the timing of his injury, plus medical advances for ACL injuries since the early 2000s.

[RLLD 3,455]

So Doug, half of these guys you mention did as well in the comeback as their season prior to injury. And wouldn't you say a normal turnover rate for RB (no injury, just year to year) is about 50%? I'm actually reading this as a positive for Charles, especially given the timing of his injury, plus medical advances for ACL injuries since the early 2000s.

 

There is a great deal to be hopeful for. make no mistake, if Charles comes back well athletically AND maintains the other aspects of his game that at once time dogged him; you get a top 3 RB very late as his ADP is juicy right now.

 

It is still a gamble, but a worthy one. If you are picking late you can likely grab him in the first 5 picks of round 2. That means you can go Brees/Charles or Brady/Charles, and if he pans out you have a beastly points production duo.

 

[Kent 228]

I love Jamaal Charles threads.

 

The beauty of Charles this year is the fact that Hillis is the other RB. Thomas Jones never got hurt. Hillis might blow an ACL if he sneezes this morning.

 

By week 4 Charles will likely be seeing 18 to 20 touches a game because Hillis is a frail. He's a walking muscle and ligament strain.

 

But the smart money this year is Thomas Jones anyway. I coached a 3rd grade flag football team so I know coaching and I know block reading. Jones is the superior option.

[The Football Guru 212]

So Doug, half of these guys you mention did as well in the comeback as their season prior to injury. And wouldn't you say a normal turnover rate for RB (no injury, just year to year) is about 50%? I'm actually reading this as a positive for Charles, especially given the timing of his injury, plus medical advances for ACL injuries since the early 2000s.

No, I think Charles would be bucking the odds if he "returns to form" in 2012. The two players on the above list that had anything close to the quickness Charles did were Davis and James. Neither back was anything close to the same after the injury. I think the injury is much more troublesome for backs that rely on speed and quickness and less so for power backs. I'm not optimistic about AP either (more severe injury too), but think he can be moderately productive because he has more power to his game. I maintain for a RB to be quick, he has to trust his knee and I just don't think that happens for most football players until they make it through most of the next season.

 

FWIW...I hope I'm wrong, b/c I like JC.

[msudavedawg 5]

My one inviolable rule in FF: Never draft a guy at RB the year after he tore an ACL. It's like drafting a Mike Shanahan RB. You might be getting Clinton Portis in his prime. Or you might be getting Olandis Gary.

 

More often than not you are getting OG.

[Matt Mueller 146]

My one inviolable rule in FF: Never draft a guy at RB the year after he tore an ACL. It's like drafting a Mike Shanahan RB. You might be getting Clinton Portis in his prime. Or you might be getting Olandis Gary.

 

More often than not you are getting OG.

 

Yeah. If this guys is there in the 4th round I consider him but I just can't see taking him in the 2nd/3rd with the ACL injury. He was a home runner hitter and if he loses any of that top end speed that might make or break his td potential this year.

 

I root for the guy but I"m not drafting him.

[skinsrule05 30]

No, I think Charles would be bucking the odds if he "returns to form" in 2012. The two players on the above list that had anything close to the quickness Charles did were Davis and James. Neither back was anything close to the same after the injury. I think the injury is much more troublesome for backs that rely on speed and quickness and less so for power backs. I'm not optimistic about AP either (more severe injury too), but think he can be moderately productive because he has more power to his game. I maintain for a RB to be quick, he has to trust his knee and I just don't think that happens for most football players until they make it through most of the next season.

 

FWIW...I hope I'm wrong, b/c I like JC.

 

Spot on, there is a very big difference between a RB like Charles or Deuce. Charles won't make my team unless it is as a RB#3.

[Matt Mueller 146]

Spot on, there is a very big difference between a RB like Charles or Deuce. Charles won't make my team unless it is as a RB#3.

 

And even AP for that matter. AP has enough size/strength/goal line work to make up for any slight loss of speed. Charles doesn't have that luxury for fantasy purposes.