Active Shooter Response - A different kind of rant

[cyclone24 1,814]

Why would it have to be a wild west shootout? How about you train teachers to use their firearm if their room is breached? Many different scenarios where it could make a huge difference.

IF their room is breached? That's it? So they just mow another room...that's even if they tried the room with the gun in the first place.

So add MORE guns to MORE teachers....again...that's going to lead to chaos and increased chances it's just misused.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Are you more likely to get shot by an intruder in your home or a child by an intruder in their school?

Both are unlikely, but I’m sure shootings in the home are more common. The problem is, it’s usually someone you know doing the shooting and being shot.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

I went through active shooter training at my workplace a few years ago. At that time I worked somewhere that was maybe a little more likely to be a target than most. Anyway it was actually pretty helpful. But they kept it really simple, which I think is important because your average person isnt going to comprehend or remember advanced tactics.

[tanatastic 2,061]

IMO I think it's more likely to get to misused or taken from the teacher than it ever would be used to stop anytHing.

 

Even if you armed several teachers. Now you have bullets whizzing everywhere. I'm not sure how that creates less death.

In real life, when a person is in a life or death shoot or die situation, most non professionals will be more of a hazard to themselves and others with a gun. Once Dirty Harry fantasies subside, you will have a quivering, terrified puddle of pee wildly shaking their gun around and probably shooting themselves in the foot or another kid. They wont be deftly dispatching bad guys with pinpoint headshots like its the walking dead as they imagined in their head.

 

The whole concept is laughable.

[BLS 313]

In real life, when a person is in a life or death shoot or die situation, most non professionals will be more of a hazard to themselves and others with a gun. Once Dirty Harry fantasies subside, you will have a quivering, terrified puddle of pee wildly shaking their gun around and probably shooting themselves in the foot or another kid. They wont be deftly dispatching bad guys with pinpoint headshots like its the walking dead as they imagined in their head.

 

The whole concept is laughable.

 

And this real life knowledge you share is based on what exactly?

[jerryskids 5,206]

And his opinion is supported by data that having guns in the home increases your chances of shooting someone other than a bad guy, including yourself. Why would a school full of kids improve those odds?

 

I'm curious as to why a scientist like yourself so blatantly misuses this statistic. The idea is to have a handful of trained teachers, not the general population.

[jerryskids 5,206]

 

And this real life knowledge you share is based on what exactly?

 

tanatastic is in general a good poster but he has a frustrating way of occasionally saying things like he is the ultimate authority on stuff which cannot be questioned. I suspect this approach works well with his fellow fryolator workers but the rest of us tend to ignore him in this mode.

[penultimatestraw 473]

I'm curious as to why a scientist like yourself so blatantly misuses this statistic. The idea is to have a handful of trained teachers, not the general population.

Im not misusing the stat, just reiterating it so the vigilante knuckleheads are reminded of the reality of private gun ownership.

 

As far as training goes, I agree with others that it is unrealistic to expect educators to simultaneously do their job and outperform people who wield a gun for a living. And that’s ignoring the risk of untrained kids getting their hands on the firearms.

 

I also linked a case where a teacher with gun training injured his student with his gun. Coupled with the likelihood of an armed teacher losing their temper at students, or panicking in an active shooter situation, there is little reason to believe more guns in schools is the answer to mass shootings.

[tanatastic 2,061]

And this real life knowledge you share is based on what exactly?

My opinion of how things are and knowing how people act when faced with crisis life or death situations that are scary as fock. Jerry is right, its just my way of sharing an opinion but putting it in a comical matter of fact way.

 

In this case I think people who have been in crisis situations or seen civilians react to them would agree with me. Heck there are trained officers who freeze up and get scared at just the sight of a black man who may or not have a gun. Put a person in a spot where a crazed gunman is around the corner and wannabe Rambo goes into the fetal position sucking their thumb.

[drobeski 3,061]

In real life, when a person is in a life or death shoot or die situation, most non professionals will be more of a hazard to themselves and others with a gun. Once Dirty Harry fantasies subside, you will have a quivering, terrified puddle of pee wildly shaking their gun around and probably shooting themselves in the foot or another kid. They wont be deftly dispatching bad guys with pinpoint headshots like its the walking dead as they imagined in their head.

 

The whole concept is laughable.

what the fock in gods name do you know about real life ?

You're a perpetual 11 year old.

Seriously stay out of grown up subjects, stick with fake wrestling and super heros.

When you finally grow up, get a job and have real adult life experiences, come back.

[Alias Detective 1,179]

Both are unlikely, but I’m sure shootings in the home are more common. The problem is, it’s usually someone you know doing the shooting and being shot.

Would you arm yourself if you were engaged personally in a war? Like Desert Storm?

 

Once you answer that, tell me.....at how many deaths of students in a school would the possibility of hurting oneself with their own gun outweigh the risk of not being armed at all.

 

I'll wait for you number of deaths Pen.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

 

tanatastic is in general a good poster but he has a frustrating way of occasionally saying things like he is the ultimate authority on stuff which cannot be questioned. I suspect this approach works well with his fellow fryolator workers but the rest of us tend to ignore him in this mode.

Its part of his shtick, and I think its pretty funny

 

Have you considered that youre being blinded by politics here? Tanny said something that is a little inconsistent with gun worship so therefore he is the enemy.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Would you arm yourself if you were engaged personally in a war? Like Desert Storm?

Once you answer that, tell me.....at how many deaths of students in a school would the possibility of hurting oneself with their own gun outweigh the risk of not being armed at all.

I'll wait for you number of deaths Pen.

In a war, yes.

 

As far as your other ridiculous question, a gun owner is around sixteen times more likely to kill or injure someone other than a bad guy with their personal firearm. I think that number goes up for armed teachers in a stressful environment with a bunch of kids. And school shootings are exceedingly rare. Moreover, I don’t think most people without extensive tactical training would respond well in a mass shooting.

 

So the risk of school shootings would have to increase a heck of a lot before arming teachers is a reasonable endeavor IMO. I’d concede to armed guards and other security measures way before considering it, so there really isn’t a good answer.

[Strike 3,979]

My opinion of how things are and knowing how people act when faced with crisis life or death situations that are scary as fock. Jerry is right, its just my way of sharing an opinion but putting it in a comical matter of fact way.

 

In this case I think people who have been in crisis situations or seen civilians react to them would agree with me. Heck there are trained officers who freeze up and get scared at just the sight of a black man who may or not have a gun. Put a person in a spot where a crazed gunman is around the corner and wannabe Rambo goes into the fetal position sucking their thumb.

 

Civilians with guns prevent crime every day. Often times, they end up shooting and/or killing the perp. Many of these people are just every day people - shop owners, people protecting their home or family, etc.....No reason they can't be helpful in these situations.

[cyclone24 1,814]

 

Civilians with guns prevent crime every day. Often times, they end up shooting and/or killing the perp. Many of these people are just every day people - shop owners, people protecting their home or family, etc.....No reason they can't be helpful in these situations.

There is a vast difference between protecting yourself and shooting someone and stopping a mass shooting. Protecting YOURSELF in a home invasion or protecting YOURSELF as a shop owner isn't even on the same Planet as I'm going to go run into this building where a guy has an AR-15 and start shooting him.

 

That's why I say sure a good guy with a gun will stop himself from getting shot but he's not exactly going to save a bunch of people who are getting shot. And odds are still more likely his gun gets misused anyway.

[tanatastic 2,061]

Civilians with guns prevent crime every day. Often times, they end up shooting and/or killing the perp. Many of these people are just every day people - shop owners, people protecting their home or family, etc.....No reason they can't be helpful in these situations.

 

I can agree with this. There are always exceptions to everything. Fock with the wrong guy in any given situation and you are in trouble. Like when the home invader breaks in and is greeted with every member of the family pointing guns at him. Wrong house.

[MDC 5,893]

 

Civilians with guns prevent crime every day.

Civilians killing themselves / someone else with guns happens every day too. Whats your point?

[Strike 3,979]

Civilians killing themselves / someone else with guns happens every day too. Whats your point?

 

That they are more than capable of having a positive impact in these mass shootings situations. If you'd read the post I was responding to and gotten the context of those posts you'd have understood,

[MDC 5,893]

 

That they are more than capable of having a positive impact in these mass shootings situations. If you'd read the post I was responding to and gotten the context of those posts you'd have understood,

I did. Are you really assuming that someone protecting himself with a gun against a petty thief or intruder means that your average civilian is able to stop an active shooter?

[Casual Observer 597]

Im not misusing the stat, just reiterating it so the vigilante knuckleheads are reminded of the reality of private gun ownership.

 

As far as training goes, I agree with others that it is unrealistic to expect educators to simultaneously do their job and outperform people who wield a gun for a living. And that’s ignoring the risk of untrained kids getting their hands on the firearms.

 

I also linked a case where a teacher with gun training injured his student with his gun. Coupled with the likelihood of an armed teacher losing their temper at students, or panicking in an active shooter situation, there is little reason to believe more guns in schools is the answer to mass shootings.

For fock's sake man, you're a doctor. Can you stop the rants about guns and start the rants against high fructose corn syrup? It kills more people.

[penultimatestraw 473]

For fock's sake man, you're a doctor. Can you stop the rants about guns and start the rants against high fructose corn syrup? It kills more people.

High fructose corn syrup aint good for you, but theres no great data that its any worse than regular sugar. Maybe youd like to start a thread about it where it can be discussed, kinda like guns are in this one?

[cyclone24 1,814]

 

That they are more than capable of having a positive impact in these mass shootings situations. If you'd read the post I was responding to and gotten the context of those posts you'd have understood,

Golly...if they could have such a positive impact you'd think they would actually get one stopped. Still waiting.

[jerryskids 5,206]

Im not misusing the stat, just reiterating it so the vigilante knuckleheads are reminded of the reality of private gun ownership.

 

As far as training goes, I agree with others that it is unrealistic to expect educators to simultaneously do their job and outperform people who wield a gun for a living. And that’s ignoring the risk of untrained kids getting their hands on the firearms.

 

I also linked a case where a teacher with gun training injured his student with his gun. Coupled with the likelihood of an armed teacher losing their temper at students, or panicking in an active shooter situation, there is little reason to believe more guns in schools is the answer to mass shootings.

 

You either misuse statistics or don't understand how to apply them, pick one.

 

The idea is to train, in some cases hire and train, capable teachers to have access to firearms. Not to put a gun in every little old lady librarian's unlocked desk. And they aren't "outperforming people who wield a gun for a living, they are outperforming a teenage kid with mental problems.

 

I previously mentioned two teachers I know who are retired military and would be more than fine in such a situation. That is twice as many empirical examples as your case.

[tanatastic 2,061]

I think budgeting for more SRO in schools is better than training teachers. We know a lot of schools already have them and they have proven to be valuable in an active shooter situation.

[penultimatestraw 473]

You either misuse statistics or don't understand how to apply them, pick one.

 

The idea is to train, in some cases hire and train, capable teachers to have access to firearms. Not to put a gun in every little old lady librarian's unlocked desk. And they aren't "outperforming people who wield a gun for a living, they are outperforming a teenage kid with mental problems.

 

I previously mentioned two teachers I know who are retired military and would be more than fine in such a situation. That is twice as many empirical examples as your case.

 

I think ex military/police who happen to be teachers now are uncommon. Im fine with them having guns, but there arent nearly enough of them to make a meaningful difference. I dont think training regular teachers is a good idea, as no weekend course will approximate the expertise of retired military or LEO.

 

And my use of stats is fine, thanks. Id think an MIT trained rocket scientist would know anecdotal evidence doesnt mean anything.

[NorthernVike 2,080]

You just got to love the Deflection. Bottom line, good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun. Period.

[penultimatestraw 473]

You just got to love the Deflection. Bottom line, good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun. Period.

No one is disputing that. It’s all about risk versus benefit.

[NorthernVike 2,080]

No one is disputing that. Its all about risk versus benefit.

Deflection

[penultimatestraw 473]

Deflection

Understanding probability

[MDC 5,893]

It would be interesting to know whether good guys with guns prevent more deaths than private gun ownership seemingly causes. But to know that, youd need to first know how many lives a private gun owner has saved and whether it would have been possible to save those lives without a gun. Then youd need to know how many gun deaths are caused by legally owned guns through murders, accidents, lost / stolen firearms that are subsequently used in commission of a fatal crime etc. Then you could compare the first # to the second to definitively know whether private gun ownership does in fact save lives.

[NorthernVike 2,080]

It would be interesting to know whether good guys with guns prevent more deaths than private gun ownership seemingly causes. But to know that, youd need to first know how many lives a private gun owner has saved and whether it would have been possible to save those lives without a gun. Then youd need to know how many gun deaths are caused by legally owned guns through murders, accidents, lost / stolen firearms that are subsequently used in commission of a fatal crime etc. Then you could compare the first # to the second to definitively know whether private gun ownership does in fact save lives.

Think of all the lives private gun ownership could have saved in Germany in the 40's.

[Casual Observer 597]

High fructose corn syrup aint good for you, but theres no great data that its any worse than regular sugar. Maybe youd like to start a thread about it where it can be discussed, kinda like guns are in this one?

Yes, but the comparison wasnt to sugar; it was to guns and therefore it might possibly be a greater public health concern to a health professional than guns. Since you're the health professional here, I'll leave it to you to educate us.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Yes, but the comparison wasnt to sugar; it was to guns and therefore it might possibly be a greater public health concern to a health professional than guns. Since you're the health professional here, I'll leave it to you to educate us.

The thread is about guns, so that’s what I’ll comment on. If you want to discuss things more dangerous than guns, start another thread. TIA.

[MDC 5,893]

Think of all the lives private gun ownership could have saved in Germany in the 40's.

Impossible: Guns are here to save us from tyrannical government!

[Casual Observer 597]

The thread is about guns, so that’s what I’ll comment on. If you want to discuss things more dangerous than guns, start another thread. TIA.

Great, but I can't help but wonder why I see 58,000 posts from you crying about guns and none about the dangers of high fructose corn syrup, or any other common ingredient that is probably more debilitating and deadly to people than guns are or ever will be.

[penultimatestraw 473]

It would be interesting to know whether good guys with guns prevent more deaths than private gun ownership seemingly causes. But to know that, youd need to first know how many lives a private gun owner has saved and whether it would have been possible to save those lives without a gun. Then youd need to know how many gun deaths are caused by legally owned guns through murders, accidents, lost / stolen firearms that are subsequently used in commission of a fatal crime etc. Then you could compare the first # to the second to definitively know whether private gun ownership does in fact save lives.

The are studies on private, presumably legal gun ownership. The risks exceed the benefits by a long shot, pun intended.

 

There is a problem defining how many lives guns save, but studies that have attempted to quantify that number also show they do more harm than good. And theres those pesky international comparisons, which never make our gun culture look good.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Great, but I can't help but wonder why I see 58,000 posts from you crying about guns and none about the dangers of high fructose corn syrup, or any other common ingredient that is probably more debilitating and deadly to people than guns are or ever will be.

 

Im not crying, just trying to call out the rampant BS posted in these threads.

 

And I’ve posted a ton about healthful dietary choices, so I’m sorry you find this topic less enlightening.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

Great, but I can't help but wonder why I see 58,000 posts from you crying about guns and none about the dangers of high fructose corn syrup, or any other common ingredient that is probably more debilitating and deadly to people than guns are or ever will be.

Probably because eating HFCS is a choice those people made. Its not like some ass hole is standing in a mall or elementary school shooting needles full of HFCS at unsuspecting passerby.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Probably because eating HFCS is a choice those people made. Its not like some ass hole is standing in a mall or elementary school shooting needles full of HFCS at unsuspecting passerby.

But food scientists are finding lots of ways to sneak it in food, so I guess I should ignore all the kids being gunned down

[Casual Observer 597]

Probably because eating HFCS is a choice those people made. Its not like some ass hole is standing in a mall or elementary school shooting needles full of HFCS at unsuspecting passerby.

Yeah, but those dietary dangers kill a lot more people, especially when you consider 2/3 of gun deaths are suicides, you're making some kind of equivalency here.