2022 Midterm Elections

[listen2me 23 1,558]

When we talk about voting rights I can't help but think back to that poor liberal kid crying in the starbucks broom closet- getting worked to death.  How with his 25 hrs a week could he ever get to vote? Especially if the closest box was more than 3 blocks away? 

The horror.  

[Sean Mooney 1,189]

3 minutes ago, Strike said:

Every once in a while I try to engage you thinking you might be worthy of an actual intelligent discussion. And every time I'm quickly reminded that you're just a partisan hack.  Shame on me.

So that was a long way of just admitting I never said it...

[Sean Mooney 1,189]

6 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

You're the one who knows election observers in your state couldn't observe anything in 2020 because they were kept 100 feet from the tables and think that behavior on the part of the election officials is either perfectly acceptable or you just don't care. What other conclusion can be drawn? 

Well some people do care. That's why they go to some lengths to make things more transparent.

The PA Supreme Court disagrees with you on the idea that people were not allowed to observe. But I'm supposed to take some YouTuber with a camera strapped to his head as an authority?

Okay. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,860]

5 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

Go back and read what Miller tweeted

Ok. He said Fetterman fantasizes about setting killers free. He does want to set killers free. What’s the issue? 

[MDC 5,934]

GOP reps in Pennsylvania waited over a year until after the election to challenge mail in voting even though many of them voted in support of it. They also tried to get the courts to toss 2.5 million mail in votes or throw out the results entirely and let the GOP legislature pick the POTUS.

That should tell you everything you need to know about “muh fraud” in PA.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

Why in the hell would Trump go after Destantis before his election? I don't want the clown show back again for a third election. I voted for him last election, but we have found a much better candidate for President in DeSantis.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,860]

Undated mail in ballots in PA were allowed in 2020. Now the court says they aren’t. I thought we accepted what the courts say and move on? 

[IGotWorms 3,385]

2 minutes ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Why in the hell would Trump go after Destantis before his election? I don't want the clown show back again for a third election. I voted for him last election, but we have found a much better candidate for President in DeSantis.

Because Trump is a deranged lunatic who cares about nothing but himself and his own power. Not that Desantis is any different. Are you maybe finally starting to see the dangers of Trumpism?

[Sean Mooney 1,189]

Just so we are clear- and because the strawmen are already being built:

 

Voter ID's are not a terrible idea. Sure there's not really a mass of people misrepresenting themselves : (https://www.brennancenter.org/issues/ensure-every-american-can-vote/vote-suppression/myth-voter-fraud) but fine- whatever.

But beyond that (officials getting to overturn county vote counts, or all that nonsense stuff) is too far. 

Seriously though- what is the voting process for you all where you vote? Is there a lot of cases of fraud all over these places?

[Sean Mooney 1,189]

10 minutes ago, MDC said:

GOP reps in Pennsylvania waited over a year until after the election to challenge mail in voting even though many of them voted in support of it. They also tried to get the courts to toss 2.5 million mail in votes or throw out the results entirely and let the GOP legislature pick the POTUS.

That should tell you everything you need to know about “muh fraud” in PA.

That is the thing about the mail in bill- it passed with bipartisian support in 2019. Then Trump lost in 2020- started crying about it- and people started running on being election deniers (including the guy running for governor as  GOP who paid to bus people to the January 6th rally/party/shindig)

Here is stuff on the undated ballot stuff:

Quote

 

What are Republicans arguing?

This new case stems from the Republican National Committee, National Republican Congressional Committee, Pennsylvania GOP, and some individual Republican voters filing what’s known as a King’s Bench Petition to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.

This kind of petition asks the state’s high court to use its unique power to bypass the lower courts and directly take up matters of particular importance. The court granted the Republicans’ request on Oct. 21.

The GOP groups asked the justices to rule that ballots submitted without a date should not be counted — even if they are turned in on time. Their request goes a step further than some prior cases by claiming that ballots with an incorrect date should also be thrown out. Counties have typically accepted these ballots in the past.

In their brief to the state Supreme Court, the Republican attorneys said that they would settle for counties being ordered to segregate these undated or misdated ballots, presumably in case future litigation finds the votes shouldn’t be accepted.

One of the GOP groups’ biggest claims is that the General Assembly’s meaning “could not have been clearer” when it passed a state law saying voters “shall…fill out, date and sign the declaration” printed on their ballot’s outer envelope, and that there’s no good reason for the court to rule differently.

They also seek to rebut an argument with which Democrats and voting rights groups have had some success: that date requirements are virtually useless for detecting fraud.

Matt Haverstick, an attorney who frequently works for Republicans in election cases but isn’t involved with this one, said a date requirement alone won’t always help counties identify a ballot submitted by an ineligible voter, but that doesn’t mean the requirement is useless. He sees measures like these as fail-safes and redundancies.

“It’s not a panacea. It’s not a magic bullet,” he said. “But in aggregate, all these anti-fraud measures are really helpful. You could maybe pick apart any one of those, but that’s not the point.”

Another core part of the GOP argument is more controversial. It centers on the “independent state legislature” doctrine, which is increasingly popular in right-wing legal circles.

Long considered a fringe theory, it posits that state legislatures are the ultimate authority on election matters and that Pennsylvania’s executive and judicial branches don’t have any power to check a legislature’s decisions.

“Accordingly,” the GOP attorneys wrote, “state courts and executive branch officers wield no authority to regulate federal elections and may not deploy broad and amorphous state constitutional provisions to rewrite state laws governing those elections.”

Effectively, they claim that even if the court doesn’t agree with their other arguments, it doesn’t matter because the governor’s administration and the court itself have no power to interpret state law that way.

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has not indicated it’s willing to entertain that argument, but members of the U.S. Supreme Court might be open to it.

What is the Democratic administration arguing?

The Wolf administration has consistently sought to count undated and misdated mail ballots since the issue first became prominent in 2020. In its response to Republicans’ latest litigation, it supported that position with a few key arguments.

The central premise of the administration’s argument is the belief that Pennsylvania’s election law should be interpreted to enfranchise more people — and that decades of court rulings have done so.

“Where there is a choice, the Court should prefer that construction of the law that ‘favors the fundamental right to vote and enfranchises, rather than disenfranchises, the electorate,’” the administration’s attorneys wrote in their brief to the state Supreme Court, quoting a 2020 Pa. Supreme Court decision on elections.

Attorneys for the state also wrote that although state law says voters “shall” date their mail ballots, that doesn’t necessarily mean undated ballots must be discarded. A separate part of the state Election Code, they said, states that county election officials should not discard ballots if the voter declaration on the ballot’s outer envelope is “sufficient.”

They argue that a ballot with a missing date is “sufficient” because under today’s election law, the date doesn’t provide county election officials with significant useful information. They dismissed Republicans’ argument to the contrary, writing that they “can barely muster an argument as to why the date matters in any respect, devoting just three paragraphs to the issue.”

The Wolf administration also argues that the requirement that ballots “shall” be dated is a relic of a previous version of Pennsylvania’s election law.

 

 

[Voltaire 4,573]

2 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

The PA Supreme Court disagrees with you on the idea that people were not allowed to observe. But I'm supposed to take some YouTuber with a camera strapped to his head as an authority?

Okay. 

The PA Supreme Court ruled that 100 feet away is sufficient. That tells me all I need to know about them: that they are partisan Dem hacks toeing the party line. Meanwhile, the guy with the camera strapped to his head is there in real time providing on the ground footage so that anyone that wants to know what was going on in Philly that day could see for themselves. You intentionally choose to ignore him,  because you've been sold your narrative. Just don't wonder why people are out there calling the process opaque and disreputable.

[Sean Mooney 1,189]

1 minute ago, Voltaire said:

The PA Supreme Court ruled that 100 feet away is sufficient. That tells me all I need to know about them: that they are partisan Dem hacks toeing the party line. Meanwhile, the guy with the camera strapped to his head is there in real time providing on the ground footage so that anyone that wants to know what was going on in Philly that day could see for themselves. You intentionally choose to ignore him,  because you've been sold your narrative. Just don't wonder why people are out there calling the process opaque and disreputable.

Do you honestly think the YouTuber is presenting things in a fair manner? I mean- I've got a bridge I can sell you too....

And- you've been sold a narrative too and you are buying every piece of it. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,624]

33 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

So you want it to be harder for all people to vote? Votes have always been allowed for a period of time before and after the actual day. Again- states individually decide this, if you want to change it there needs to be a universal policy but then that pulls away from "state's rights."

 

How is anything I’m suggesting harder. Take your mail in ballot to a designated area as I suggested or vote in person on Election Day. Seems simple. You can drop your ballot anytime two weeks before the election (which is idiotic anyways as you should always wait to actually get informed) but if you can’t manage to do so then really I don’t give a crap if you vote. It’s an hour out of your life it’s important to you you can make a slight effort 

 

and yes still on the states but the feds can make it a national holiday 

[MDC 5,934]

3 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

The PA Supreme Court ruled that 100 feet away is sufficient. That tells me all I need to know about them: that they are partisan Dem hacks toeing the party line. Meanwhile, the guy with the camera strapped to his head is there in real time providing on the ground footage so that anyone that wants to know what was going on in Philly that day could see for themselves. You intentionally choose to ignore him,  because you've been sold your narrative. Just don't wonder why people are out there calling the process opaque and disreputable.

In order to believe the election was stolen, you have to believe that Democrats, the courts, and state and local election officials, many of them Republicans, all conspired to make Biden POTUS.

Or you can believe Trump is a lying sack of shiit. Like he’s been for his entire life.

  

[Sean Mooney 1,189]

Just now, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

How is anything I’m suggesting harder. Take your mail in ballot to a designated area as I suggested or vote in person on Election Day. Seems simple. You can drop your ballot anytime two weeks before the election (which is idiotic anyways as you should always wait to actually get informed) but if you can’t manage to do so then really I don’t give a crap if you vote. It’s an hour out of your life it’s important to you you can make a slight effort 

How many ballot boxes are you putting up?

Are they just in certain areas? 

Are they in certain counties?

Are they placed at each individual voting precincts?

Are they placed at township/municipal buildings?

Who is installing all these cameras to monitor them?

Who is paying for the extra webspace to livestream these cameras?

 

[Voltaire 4,573]

Just now, Sean Mooney said:

Do you honestly think the YouTuber is presenting things in a fair manner? I mean- I've got a bridge I can sell you too....

And- you've been sold a narrative too and you are buying every piece of it. 

It's not just that guy, there's all sorts of people with video cameras and sworn affidavits there that day and at other places across the country. It's well known the observers weren't allowed to observe and MDC's link shows the PA Supreme Court didn't care that they were 100 feet away.

Also, I always prefer video evidence and eyewitness accounts. 

[Sean Mooney 1,189]

Just now, MDC said:

In order to believe the election was stolen, you have to believe that Democrats, the courts, and state and local election officials, many of them Republicans, all conspired to make Biden POTUS.

Or you can believe Trump is a lying sack of shiit. Like he’s been for his entire life.

  

It's even more than that- you have to believe the Democrats were smart enough to rig the Presidential election yet not smart enough to rig the down ballot elections to give themselves more of a cushion. Because again- they lost House seats. The Senate did not uniformly flip like people thought.

 

[Sean Mooney 1,189]

1 minute ago, Voltaire said:

It's not just that guy, there's all sorts of people with video cameras and sworn affidavits there that day and at other places across the country. It's well known the observers weren't allowed to observe and MDC's link shows the PA Supreme Court didn't care that they were 100 feet away.

Also, I always prefer video evidence and eyewitness accounts. 

And how much of that evidence was legitimate and used to prosecute all these people who were perpetuating voter fraud on everyone?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,860]

The fact that undated mail in ballots were accepted in 2020 and now the court says they aren’t is a smoking gun. What changed? 

[MDC 5,934]

8 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

It's not just that guy, there's all sorts of people with video cameras and sworn affidavits there that day and at other places across the country. It's well known the observers weren't allowed to observe and MDC's link shows the PA Supreme Court didn't care that they were 100 feet away.

Also, I always prefer video evidence and eyewitness accounts. 

Here’s an eyewitness account from my link:

Quote

The court noted that state law mandates that observers be permitted to be "in the room" during ballot counting, but leaves it up to county election officials to determine a minimum distance, if any, from the ballots being counted.

A poll watcher monitors the counting of ballots at the Allegheny County elections warehouse on November 6, 2020 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Jeff Swensen | Getty Images

A witness in the case had testified that even at the distance he was kept, he could see the counting process.

[Voltaire 4,573]

1 minute ago, MDC said:

In order to believe the election was stolen, you have to believe that Democrats, the courts, and state and local election officials, many of them Republicans, all conspired to make Biden POTUS.

Or you can believe Trump is a lying sack of shiit. Like he’s been for his entire life.

  

We're talking about what happened in Philly that day but if you want to talk about Detroit, which was even worse, we can have that conversation except I don't have unlimited time and I've already donated well past what I wanted to to this thread already. What's clear is the Democrats had the motivation, the opportunity, and the means to rig the election in various critical big cities around the nation. 

Whatever happened, it happened two years ago and the results are set in stone. The big thing is to make sure what allegedly happened then doesn't happen tomorrow. Personally, I think there is a good chance that Philly, especially, is going to go generate controversy again. I think they'll likely bully the observers again, and we'll play this game again. I hope that doesn't happen but I don't trust these big city Democrats at all at the moment.

[Sean Mooney 1,189]

13 minutes ago, MDC said:

Here’s an eyewitness account from my link:

Maybe the election observers need to be sitting on the counter's lap?

 

[RLLD 3,505]

If the Democrats do use the tactics of delay to fabricate votes in this election I hope they get caught, I do think that was a key tactic for them in the last election. I freely admit that I have no proof or anything other than a simple estimation of what I think transpired.

They tried to impeach a president with less. 

[IGotWorms 3,385]

7 minutes ago, RLLD said:

If the Democrats do use the tactics of delay to fabricate votes in this election I hope they get caught, I do think that was a key tactic for them in the last election. I freely admit that I have no proof or anything other than a simple estimation of what I think transpired.

They tried to impeach a president with less. 

This is loony talk based on absolutely nothing

[Voltaire 4,573]

8 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

And how much of that evidence was legitimate and used to prosecute all these people who were perpetuating voter fraud on everyone?

A good chunk was legitimate. And next to none was used to prosecute anybody. Legal standards are different than common sense and statistical improbabilities. If they won't let you observe, they may well be doing it for a shady reason. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,624]

32 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

How many ballot boxes are you putting up? 

at town halls, voting locations and police stations, as many as "per capita" is necessary

Are they just in certain areas? 

all areas, everyone should be able to be within 30 mins of a ballot box drop location

Are they in certain counties?

same as above

Are they placed at each individual voting precincts?

yes again

Are they placed at township/municipal buildings?

yes as i mentioned initially

Who is installing all these cameras to monitor them?

there are already cameras in most places that I mentioned for that reason, but if not city taxes

Who is paying for the extra webspace to livestream these cameras?

ukraine funding

there you go

[RLLD 3,505]

8 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

This is loony talk based on absolutely nothing

Of course you are free to disagree. I am not sure your efforts would ever convince me to change my mind, but I get where you are coming from. I felt the same way when Democrats fabricated impeachment proceedings over false Russian Collusion accusations. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,624]

4 minutes ago, RLLD said:

Of course you are free to disagree. I am not sure your efforts would ever convince me to change my mind, but I get where you are coming from. I felt the same way when Democrats fabricated impeachment proceedings over false Russian Collusion accusations. 

at least their nonsense got a 3 year investigation

our nonsense got shut up your lying

[IGotWorms 3,385]

5 minutes ago, RLLD said:

Of course you are free to disagree. I am not sure your efforts would ever convince me to change my mind, but I get where you are coming from. I felt the same way when Democrats fabricated impeachment proceedings over false Russian Collusion accusations. 

Do you realize how dangerous to democracy this is? You don’t believe election results are legitimate, and you’ll never change your mind no matter what. It undermines and damages everything.

Is that not concerning to you at all?

Are you so angry and spiteful that you’ll allow the whole process to be destroyed because occasionally it doesn’t go your way??

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,624]

1 minute ago, IGotWorms said:

Do you realize how dangerous to democracy this is? You don’t believe election results are legitimate, and you’ll never change your mind no matter what. It undermines and damages everything.

Is that not concerning to you at all?

Are you so angry and spiteful that you’ll allow the whole process to be destroyed because occasionally it doesn’t go your way??

did you think it was dangerous in 2016?, 2018?

 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,860]

6 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

Do you realize how dangerous to democracy this is? You don’t believe election results are legitimate, and you’ll never change your mind no matter what. It undermines and damages everything.

Is that not concerning to you at all?

Are you so angry and spiteful that you’ll allow the whole process to be destroyed because occasionally it doesn’t go your way??

My mind can be changed with common sense protocols to thwart fraud.  

[RLLD 3,505]

10 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

Do you realize how dangerous to democracy this is? You don’t believe election results are legitimate, and you’ll never change your mind no matter what. It undermines and damages everything.

Is that not concerning to you at all?

Are you so angry and spiteful that you’ll allow the whole process to be destroyed because occasionally it doesn’t go your way??

I think challenging the system is part of being a citizen, it is our responsibility to do so.  We have an obligation to be watchful and wary of our elections, not complacent or complicit where we are concerned about potential violations. I think the real danger is what you propose, to ignore issues and pretend the system is without flaw, I think that is very dangerous. 

The notion that people, not to mention political people, are good and would never do this is farcical. And if Democrats are actually concerned as they portrayed themselves to be when it was assumed that Russia perverted our elections I would hope they stood by their stance on this topic.

[IGotWorms 3,385]

5 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

did you think it was dangerous in 2016?, 2018?

 

I’m not sure what you are referring to. Nothing happened that I’m aware of in 2016. Are you talking about the Mueller investigation that was started by Trump’s own AG? Then yeah, I think it can be undermining to look at whether a president accepted assistance from a hostile foreign power to win an election. But it’s much more undermining if he did. So it was an unfortunate situation that I think at the very least we can probably agree was initiated by Trump by doing things like publicly asking Russia to hack his political opponents’ emails. It was damaging, yes, but it was necessary and it was initiated by the candidate himself.

2018, what are you talking about? Are you talking about when Trump tried to blackmail the Ukraine into announcing an investigation into his domestic political opponent? Yeah I think that was damaging. Also I believe that was 2019 or 2020? Impeachment proceedings are damaging too but again, I think it was a necessary evil unfortunately begun by Trump’s own actions.

[RLLD 3,505]

16 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

at least their nonsense got a 3 year investigation

our nonsense got shut up your lying

Yes, but simply questioning is what we are doing.  Active subversion is what the Democrats were doing with the fabricated Collusion hoax. 

[IGotWorms 3,385]

1 hour ago, RLLD said:

I think challenging the system is part of being a citizen, it is our responsibility to do so.  We have an obligation to be watchful and wary of our elections, not complacent or complicit where we are concerned about potential violations. I think the real danger is what you propose, to ignore issues and pretend the system is without flaw, I think that is very dangerous. 

The notion that people, not to mention political people, are good and would never do this is farcical. And if Democrats are actually concerned as they portrayed themselves to be when it was assumed that Russia perverted our elections I would hope they stood by their stance on this topic.

Your obligation is to protect democracy. Sure that includes guarding against voter fraud, but it also definitely means not undermining the entire system by claiming and believing in voter fraud despite the absence of any evidence whatsoever (by your own admission, no less).

You can’t not accept election results because you don’t like how they turned out. That is betraying your most fundamental obligation as a citizen in democratic self-government.

[Horseman 1,571]

17 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

Do you realize how dangerous to democracy this is? You don’t believe election results are legitimate, and you’ll never change your mind no matter what. It undermines and damages everything.

[RLLD 3,505]

Just now, IGotWorms said:

Your obligation is to protect democracy. Sure that includes guarding against voter fraud, but it also definitely means not undermining the entire system by claiming and believing in voter fraud despite that absence of any evidence whatsoever (by your own admission, no less).

You can’t not accept election results because you don’t like how they turned out. That is betraying your most fundamental obligation as a citizen in democratic self-government.

I accepted the outcome of the elections. I did not riot or any of that. But I remained concerned that the election had serious issues, and no action was taken to deal with it. So it could repeat.

I am not someone like Stacy Abrams who continues to assert that if she loses its voter suppression because the Republicans strengthened voter validation.  Meanwhile, voter turn out is breaking records.

No sir. I will continue to contact my elected representatives and ask that more be done to protect our elections. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,860]

16 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

Your obligation is to protect democracy. Sure that includes guarding against voter fraud, but it also definitely means not undermining the entire system by claiming and believing in voter fraud despite that absence of any evidence whatsoever (by your own admission, no less).

You can’t not accept election results because you don’t like how they turned out. That is betraying your most fundamental obligation as a citizen in democratic self-government.

How come the undated mail in ballots aren’t allowed now but they were two years ago? Is that supposed to give me confidence? It gets corrected after the fact when nothing can be done? That’s the way forward? 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,624]

32 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

I’m not sure what you are referring to. Nothing happened that I’m aware of in 2016. Are you talking about the Mueller investigation that was started by Trump’s own AG? Then yeah, I think it can be undermining to look at whether a president accepted assistance from a hostile foreign power to win an election. But it’s much more undermining if he did. So it was an unfortunate situation that I think at the very least we can probably agree was initiated by Trump by doing things like publicly asking Russia to hack his political opponents’ emails. It was damaging, yes, but it was necessary and it was initiated by the candidate himself.

2018, what are you talking about? Are you talking about when Trump tried to blackmail the Ukraine into announcing an investigation into his domestic political opponent? Yeah I think that was damaging. Also I believe that was 2019 or 2020? Impeachment proceedings are damaging too but again, I think it was a necessary evil unfortunately begun by Trump’s own actions.

im talking about all the people who started the investigation, it didnt start randomly cause of Trump's AG, his AG did his job.  It started with a paid informant fabricating documents

also talking about the election denial in 2016 and 2018, which nobody cared about, and still dont. 

its america say and think whatever you want

[Sean Mooney 1,189]

59 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

at least their nonsense got a 3 year investigation

our nonsense got shut up your lying

"our nonsense" 

Yeah I guess if you ignore all the court cases that were either heard or thrown out- then yeah- nothing got done.