Trump INDICTED

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

1 minute ago, Dizkneelande said:

If the Espionage Act means Presidents can’t retain any classified documents, then the Presidential Record Act is all but meaningless. 

 

There is a fair argument that the Espionage Act is functionally bad law. But it is, unfortunately, the current law. 

No one could really get Trump during his 2nd impeachment because of the Brandenburg Test. Now as legal precedent, one could argue that Brandenburg is actually outdated and does not reflect the true power of the new social media age and speed of information. SCOTUS back then didn't have social media like today. Or internet. Or any of the technology mechanisms available. Team Blue could argue that Brandenburg is actually outdated law. And they'd have a point ( I wouldn't assess it as right though) But it's the law we have. 

The same principles that protected Trump during the 2nd impeachment will be the one that will hurt him with the Espionage Act. 

It's not "justice" in any form, but it's the law. When Trump walks into the court, the problem is the law, not anyone's sense of equity nor justice. 

You are making a fair distinction. But it's not how the current law works. Even the Bill Clinton "sock drawer tapes" situation doesn't apply here. Not legally. If it did and would, I would say so. 

A fair argument to be made is that the current DOJ wanted more than just certain "documents and records"  After all, the FBI took Trump's passports ( there is no justification for that) in the raid. That they just wanted a pretext to try to find a "smoking gun" on paper to nail Trump for the 2024 election. That's a more than fair assessment if someone put that forward. 

One of the key takeaways is if you are a Conservative and/or Republican in this country, you need to OPERATE WITH ZERO MARGIN FOR ERROR. 

Look at the "Tweets" thread I started and support. Much of the stuff I discuss there, if the radical leftists show in those tweets were Republicans, the way it would be handled and treated is just way different. More partisan and more brutal. If Donald Trump Jr was the one with that laptop, the media firestorm and controversy would never end. But since it's Hunter Biden, you see the BS where the FBI will slow walk everything and be horrible partisan and corrupt. 

It's not fair, but for right now, it's how it works. Conservatives and Republicans are in a very unfair game right now. But the answer is to play the game better. You keep delivering wins and successes everywhere, and you win lots of elections. If you win lots of elections, you get the numbers you need to get the majorities to push your policies. Look at Roe Vs Wade. Obama's stupidity and corruption cost him State legislature seats at a historic rate. Obama won POTUS twice, but down the ticket, the damage was brutal. Those State legislature seats allowed the pathway for the Federalist Society and the Conservative Catholics there to entrench politically. That produced Amy Coney Barrett. Which turned into the greatest win for Pro Life in American political history. That win for Pro Life was the product of methodical, measured and strategic operations all across the country. That win didn't happen overnight. But it happened. 

Conservatives "win" by being good examples, delivering for working class Americans and playing the game better by avoiding the same idiotic pitfalls that drags Team Blue into the gutter. 

I want what you want. But one step at a time. Also let's just take the wins we have in front of us. If Trump has to fall by the wayside for Conservatism to move forward with DeSantis, then so be it. We can't focus on what we want to happen in an ideal world. We have to focus on how the current situation unpacks today and then look for practical measured wins whenever possible. 

I want what you want. But it's going to take some time and process to get it. Just like the win for Pro Life. 

[gas 137]

LOCK HIM UP! LOCK HIM UP! LOCK HIM UP! 

[jerryskids 6,567]

57 minutes ago, Cloaca du jour said:

 

Great link, thanks.  Hard to believe that was 58 years ago.  Apparently that process had already started, and here we are.   

[jonmx 2,424]

4 hours ago, Pimpadeaux said:

Nice pwnage!

Only if you are an idiot who can't read...did you read the article and get past the BS hyperbole....not one of their points contradict  my statement.   

Oh no, states are passing laws that protect minor children under 15 from getting their dickies cut off.

 Oh no, adult males can't dress as females and expose their hairy ass to 8 year old girls.  

Oh no, teachers can't try to convince young boys they are actually girls behind the parents backs.  

Oh no, you can't go to jail for misgendering someone.  

Not a single item that stupid-ass article written by some pedophile contradicts what I said about trans being free to do whatever they like in private with zero retributions.  

Dumbshit leftists posting links thinking they owned someone.   

[Patented Phil 1,469]

Didn’t  Biden have classified documents as well?  Why isn’t he being arrested?

[jonmx 2,424]

Just now, Patented Phil said:

Didn’t  Biden have classified documents as well?  Why isn’t he being arrested?

So did Hillary...no charges.

So did General Petreaus....a single misdemeanor. 

A civil war looms.  

[dogcows 1,030]

10 minutes ago, Patented Phil said:

Didn’t  Biden have classified documents as well?  Why isn’t he being arrested?

Read the indictment and you might learn a thing or two.

[The Real timschochet 6,421]

9 minutes ago, Patented Phil said:

Didn’t  Biden have classified documents as well?  Why isn’t he being arrested?

Because: 

1. He didn’t willfully try to hide them. 
2. He didn’t show them to journalists. 
3. He didn’t lie to the FBI. 
4. He didn’t try to obstruct justice.

[seafoam1 2,803]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Because: 

1. He didn’t willfully try to hide them. 
2. He didn’t show them to journalists. 
3. He didn’t lie to the FBI. 
4. He didn’t try to obstruct justice.

You don't follow much. 

[seafoam1 2,803]

11 minutes ago, jonmx said:

So did Hillary...no charges.

So did General Petreaus....a single misdemeanor. 

A civil war looms.  

Let's have a civil war. And let's state all the reasons clearly why liberals will be eradicated. Then just do it.

[Patented Phil 1,469]

4 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Read the indictment and you might learn a thing or two.

I understand the seriousness of the documents.  Does the law require that the documents be classified?  Or that they be classified and very serious?

[dogcows 1,030]

Just now, Patented Phil said:

I understand the seriousness of the documents.  Does the law require that the documents be classified?  Or that they be classified and very serious?

Don’t be lazy. Read it.

[Patented Phil 1,469]

6 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Because: 

1. He didn’t willfully try to hide them. 
2. He didn’t show them to journalists. 
3. He didn’t lie to the FBI. 
4. He didn’t try to obstruct justice.

so you can take classified documents, keep them in multiple places, including your garage, not disclose them until asked multiple times, but that’s not a crime?  Just trying to understand the law better.

[GutterBoy 2,898]

26 minutes ago, Patented Phil said:

Didn’t  Biden have classified documents as well?  Why isn’t he being arrested?

Because he turned them over.  If trump did the same, he wouldn't be charged either.

[seafoam1 2,803]

Just now, GutterBoy said:

Because he turned them over.  If trump did the same, he wouldn't be charged either.

They told him to out another lock on the door. 

Liberals are so stupid.

[Patented Phil 1,469]

8 minutes ago, GutterBoy said:

Because he turned them over.  If trump did the same, he wouldn't be charged either.

He did?  Did he turn all of them over?  How do you know this?  Didn’t he turn them over, say there were no more, then turn more over a little later?

Does the Presidential Records Act have a provision in it that says anything about turning them over when asked?

[GutterBoy 2,898]

5 minutes ago, Patented Phil said:

He did?  Did he turn all of them over?  How do you know this?  Didn’t he turn them over, say there were no more, then turn more over a little later?

Does the Presidential Records Act have a provision in it that says anything about turning them over when asked?

Here this should explain it for you

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/06/09/trump-indicted-classified-documents-biden-pence/70304839007/

[Dizkneelande 1,085]

41 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Because: 

1. He didn’t willfully try to hide them. 
2. He didn’t show them to journalists. 
3. He didn’t lie to the FBI. 
4. He didn’t try to obstruct justice.

Hillary did all of those things and she wasn’t protected under the presidential record act. She had no declassification authority but we know you don’t care. 

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

31 minutes ago, Patented Phil said:

Didn’t  Biden have classified documents as well?  Why isn’t he being arrested?

 

Martha Stewart went to prison. Her initial problem of "insider trading" would have probably ended up with a fine and probation, had she copped to it. She lied and she got caught lying. 

Using the Espionage Act against Trump is a legal reach, but there is a functional pathway. Once Trump was caught on tape, he freely gave up "intent", which is close to impossible to prove otherwise. As the case gets stronger against Trump, that gives more incentive for Mark Meadows to jump ship. Once he does, it gives the valet, also under indictment now, more incentive to jump ship. 

Biden is not on tape here. Also the "double standard" against Conservatives and Republicans protects Biden. But the general rule of government service is you can't get into trouble if you do absolutely nothing. AOC screams into social media, but her drives forward no real policy. So there's not much to criticize her on except the stupid things she says on Facebook. AOC literally does nothing from a policy standpoint. 

If you don't talk, you can't have those words be used to hang you. Biden doesn't really do interviews or answer questions. His "handlers" ( i.e. it's Neera Tanden running the country for day to day operations, taking over for the since deposed Susan Rice) limit Biden's exposure, so there's less risk of him putting himself in the jackpot. 

The issue with Biden rests more with the Presidential Records Act. He's not on tape lying about anything ( though his entire political career, is catalogued with stupid open lie after lie) 

The issue with Trump is now more aligned with the Espionage Act and obstruction. Like Martha Stewart. Trump should have just shut up. And beyond that, he should have surrendered the records "one by one" in public. Make it slow and painful but "compliant"  Basically like the NASCAR driver who was fined, but paid in pennies. 

Nikki Haley and Tim Scott don't really say too much in public. What is said is extremely curated and measured. They know the DNC and Team Blue is hunting them down for anything to attack them. They are adapting to the practical environment. 

A person can be good at one thing, but not another. Trump has real charisma. He's a good "host" and his career leaned more into hospitality. If he just stuck to running hotels and restaurants, he can do that as a frontman. But he's not a good "administrator"  Someone like Ted Cruz or Amy Klobuchar would be good administrators, basic nut and bolts logistics,  but they lack charisma. Mitch McConnell is an incredible administrator. But he's mediocre with actual policy. 

Trump is too arrogant and narcissistic to accept the parts of himself where he's just not very good at something. During COVID19, if he thinks Fauci is a corrupt attention , then fire him. But Trump talking over everyone when he's clearly not in line with understanding COVID19 was pretty stupid. Ron DeSantis however, to his credit, locked himself away with real medical experts and basically schooled himself on the mechanics of COVID19. It's why his policies, while controversial to some, didn't hurt him so badly politically in current times. Calling Brian Kemp and George Raffensperger, but not knowing real election law, was stupid. Relying on Rudy Guiliani post 2020 election day was stupid. Guiliani is great if you wanted to put mobsters in jai decades before, but he's not an election specialist. Pushing Dr Oz and Herschel Walker was insane. Totally insane from a strategy perspective. But Trump doesn't care if doesn't make sense. 

Trump can be great in the areas where he is right and refuse to listen to anyone. When the activist complicit MSM went after him, he didn't back down. He's right, they are corrupt and partisan and essentially state propaganda for the DNC. He refused to listen to those who said to back down to the establishment.

However when Trump is wrong or doesn't know something, and he refuses to listen to those who are telling him to stop, that's when so much chaos happens. 

Being a good leader is coming to terms with what you aren't good at and accepting it. Pete Carroll knew he wasn't the best draft mind in the world. So he hired Scot McCloughan to help him. That gave him the Legion Of Boom and the Seahawks won a championship. Carroll knew he was strong helping UDFAs find some potential, so he focused on that instead. 

Biden can't get in trouble because he does nothing, he says close to nothing, and the MSM covers for him. 

Trump gets in trouble because he literally can't shut up. Politicians lie. We all know that. But you can't lie, have the lie not work, then stack more lies on top of it, then get caught on tape doing it. 

Something truly unique that's happening here is Mitch McConnell wants Trump convicted and out of politics so an establishment Republican can retake the White House. Hakeem Jefferies and Jaime Harrison and Neera Tanden want Trump hit hard, but not convicted, because they need him running for POTUS, as he's the only one Biden can beat in a general election. 

The lead front runner for the RNC ticket next year, the old guard GOP wants him in leg irons and Team Blue wants him to avoid conviction. Think about how totally strange and unthinkable that would be in almost any other circumstance. 

Trump's motor mouth got him to POTUS. Now it will likely get him in prison. He's his own worst enemy most of the time. He's right that the establishment Democrats and radical left are corrupt in trying to get him. But he's wrong in that he's also blameless. He's not stupid, but he's ignorant. He's a good front man, but he's a lousy administrator. His real problem here is not understanding the difference of what he can and can't do. 

[Dizkneelande 1,085]

Hillary Clinton:  “I did not email any classified material to anyone on my email.”

James Comey:  “Let me tell you what we found.”

-110 emails
-52 email chains 
-8 of those chains were top secret
-36 were secret 
-8 contained confidential information 

Hillary Clinton:  “it wasn’t the best choice, I made a mistake.”

James Comey:  “This is going to be an unusual statement, in at least a couple of ways, although there IS EVIDENCE, our judgement is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case.”

[dogcows 1,030]

10 minutes ago, Blue Horseshoe said:

Also the "double standard" against Conservatives and Republicans protects Biden.

[dogcows 1,030]

47 minutes ago, Patented Phil said:

so you can take classified documents, keep them in multiple places, including your garage, not disclose them until asked multiple times, but that’s not a crime?  Just trying to understand the law better.

Give up. It’s clearly too complicated for you.

[GutterBoy 2,898]

4 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Pence had docs too, he handed them over and said he had no business having them.

Trump did this to himself

 

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

19 minutes ago, Dizkneelande said:

Hillary did all of those things and she wasn’t protected under the presidential record act. She had no declassification authority but we know you don’t care. 

 

There are legal cases where a female caretaker raped a male patient. Then she got pregnant. Then sued the male in question for child support. 

Raping that patient is one legal issue. 

Paying or not paying child support for a biological child of yours is another legal issue. 

The caretaker might end up in prison, but the male patient might still have to pay child support anyway. 

Hillary Clinton's email server scandal has no legal bearing on this current situation with Trump. There is an overall question of "justice" because of the clear double standard in place against Conservatives and Republicans. But it's not a function of justice here, it's going to come down to the actual law. 

Should Hillary Clinton be in prison now? Yes. If she was a Republican and did the crap she pulled, she'd likely be in pokey right now. But she's not. Nothing anyone can do will change that right now. 

The DOJ currently has Trump on tape. And that makes this close to indefensible for Trump. And you are right, the radical leftists here don't care. They don't see that if Conservatives and Republicans are wiped out, then it's going to be their children next on the general chopping block for wokeness. 

Legally, none of the other situations with the Clintons, Obama and Biden regarding the PRA are going to factor in here. Not legally. In the Court Of Public Opinion, the answer is "Yes', but that doesn't save Trump in a real court room. 

Trump is cornered here. This is a very bad situation for him. There are very few small openings for him to squeeze his way out of this one. If I saw a very clear pathway out, I'd address it. But it just doesn't exist right now. 

I don't see this as energizing Trump's "base" for 2024. The current MSM cites polling to show Trump as the front runner. OK, and that's polling. Since when has polling shown the true landscape of American modern politics in the last 3-4 cycles?  Lots of people are sick of Trump. Many Republicans will vote for him if they have no choice, over any Democrat. But I'd wager a large share want him out of politics period. MAGA hardliners do not represent the whole Republican Party. Radical leftist, including one here, like to shout that out, but they are typically low information voters and low value contributors. They are just as ignorant as Trump and Biden are most of the time. 

[Hardcore troubadour 14,935]

I robbed a bank.  I gave back the money when I got caught.  We good? 

[dogcows 1,030]

24 minutes ago, Blue Horseshoe said:

radical leftists here don't care. They don't see that if Conservatives and Republicans are wiped out, then it's going to be their children next on the general chopping block for wokeness. 

Oh no! Not the wokeness! Won’t somebody please think of the children!?!?

[The Real timschochet 6,421]

None of those who have chosen to defend Trump here have read the indictment, obviously. A few of them are repeating arguments made by Trump that have now turned out to be lies. The rest are bringing up Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden.

 

[paulinstl 296]

16 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

None of those who have chosen to defend Trump here have read the indictment, obviously. A few of them are repeating arguments made by Trump that have now turned out to be lies. The rest are bringing up Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden.

 

They won't read it, if they did, they would know that all Trump had to do was cooperate and it never would have come to this. By remaining uninformed, they don't have to face the fact that they support a really bad Dude who is going to take a hard fall due to his ego.

[Pimpadeaux 2,404]

2 hours ago, Patented Phil said:

so you can take classified documents, keep them in multiple places, including your garage, not disclose them until asked multiple times, but that’s not a crime?  Just trying to understand the law better.

Biden's people found the docs and immediately reported that and returned them. Trump treated his docs like prized trophies, showed them to other people, repeatedly lied, ignored the orders to return the docs and obstructed justice. Your journey to total dumbassery is complete if you can't see the difference, although I suspect you reached that destination a long time ago.

[jonmx 2,424]

2 hours ago, Dizkneelande said:

Hillary did all of those things and she wasn’t protected under the presidential record act. She had no declassification authority but we know you don’t care. 

Oh good lord, Tim defended Hillary to the hilt.  He thought there was they were making something out of nothing.   

You really can't make the up.  F-img brown shirt. 

[Hardcore troubadour 14,935]

1 hour ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I robbed a bank.  I gave back the money when I got caught.  We good? 

Crickets.  

[thegeneral 2,910]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Crickets.  

You do this often. Post some random comment and expect people to know what you are going on about. 

What is it you are whatabouting with this post?

[The Real timschochet 6,421]

25 minutes ago, jonmx said:

Oh good lord, Tim defended Hillary to the hilt.  He thought there was they were making something out of nothing.   

You really can't make the up.  F-img brown shirt. 

I did defend her. And if you want to look, I defended Trump on this charge as well. I thought it was ridiculous. 
 

But that was before I knew that Trump showed top secret documents about our defense to journalists. It was before I knew that he deliberately, willfully lied to the FBI. That’s very different from anything that Hillary was accused of. 

[Patented Phil 1,469]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

None of those who have chosen to defend Trump here have read the indictment, obviously. A few of them are repeating arguments made by Trump that have now turned out to be lies. The rest are bringing up Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden.

 

Nice Play-by-Play Tim.

I'm not defending Trump.  I'm sick of the guy and hope he goes away.  Probably not the thread for whataboutism, but just wanted to hear the initial responses from the Libs.  And I was disappointed.  Nobody knows the law in here.

[Patented Phil 1,469]

23 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

You do this often. Post some random comment and expect people to know what you are going on about. 

What is it you are whatabouting with this post?

Yo General.  Wasssup?  Shouldn't you be out slayin it in downtown SEA?

[seafoam1 2,803]

1 minute ago, Patented Phil said:

Nice Play-by-Play Tim.

I'm not defending Trump.  I'm sick of the guy and hope he goes away.  Probably not the thread for whataboutism, but just wanted to hear the initial responses from the Libs.  And I was disappointed.  Nobody knows the law in here.

You are talking to a guy who loves ILLEGALS. 

[Patented Phil 1,469]

Just now, seafoam1 said:

You are talking to a guy who loves ILLEGALS. 

Nah.  Tim doesn't love illegals.  He loves getting furniture moved for $5.

[thegeneral 2,910]

39 minutes ago, Patented Phil said:

Yo General.  Wasssup?  Shouldn't you be out slayin it in downtown SEA?

Yo Phil. Life is good! Hope for you as well.

[Hardcore troubadour 14,935]

The equal application of the law is fundamental to the American way. Sorry you Libby twats can’t handle it when it’s pointed out that it’s not the case. 

[thegeneral 2,910]

22 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

The equal application of the law is fundamental to the American way. Sorry you Libby twats can’t handle it when it’s pointed out that it’s not the case. 

Lock him up!