House averts shutdown as McCarthy works out deal with Democrats

[Voltaire 5,281]

4 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

thank you. I watched the whole thing. Very intelligent guy, very well presented. And I think I detected what is for me the flaw in his entire argument: 

Late in the video, he correctly divides critical race theory between its premise and its conclusion. The premises of CRT is that America has a long history of racism and we should explore this. Rufo agrees that this is undeniably true. But he then states that the conclusion of CRT is is radical Marxism, equity instead of equality, etc. And he argues that well meaning liberals such as myself don’t recognize this conclusion, but he does, and therefore CRT is a nefarious, existential plot to destroy America which needs to be opposed. 

Fair enough, But he’s wrong. I DO recognize what the conclusion of many of the creators of CRT is. And yet I still want it taught in schools. Why? Because it’s the premise that’s important, not the conclusion. I would offer as an analogy Upton Sinclair’s The Jungle, a book which is extremely important to our history, because it caused a reformation to the meat packing industries of the Midwest, led to unionization of most industries, higher wages and the creation of our middle class. But this is not what Sinclair intended. His criticism was meant to create a socialist revolution in America; he says so in the book. He didn’t want to strengthen capitalism through reform, but that’s what ended up happening.

Similarly, I believe that systemic racism exists in our society, is central to our history, and should be taught in schools. Hence CRT. But my goal is opposite of those who created CRT. Like Upton Sinclair, they may want to tear down society, but I want to eliminate systemic racism in order to strengthen our capitalist society. I reject socialism, I reject equity. Rufo apparently believes that teaching our history accurately will lead to these things, but I reject that. We will NEVER become a Marxist society. 
 

I apologize for the length of this response but again these are nuanced, complicated issues. 

Thank You for taking the time. My point is that you need CRT to teach the ugly and then flawed racial problems that have existed in the US. We were already getting a good dose of that in school in the 80s, when CRT was just the plaything of fringe Marxists that mostly talked to each other in empty rooms and got ignored by the mainstream of academic society. Turning over the teaching of American history and civics to people who despise American history and civics is societal suicide.

I've long disagreed with you on the extent that racism is central and systemic. The laws were changed in the 60s and whatever vestiges of it have long since faded. All I've seen my whole life is the country bending over backwards to help black folks, they get way more help than I ever got. All the systemic racism you claim exists flows in 180 degrees, the exact opposite direction that you claim it does, and further it's been that way all our lives. (I'm 51). If that assistance was targeted to kids growing up in the inner-city ghettos with schools almost entirely minority, that would have been at least understandable. It's hard to climb out of that destitute environment. But that's not how it works. When you go to a low-income area of mixed races and say only these kids are worth helping and being offered assistance while these ones aren't, and that's based on the color of their skin, you're going to breed anger and resentments. Systemic racism is a fantasy long since irradiated, but if you could actually point it out, I would join you in getting rid of it. We're at a point where it's long gone and the pendulum has swung way far beyond where it ever needed to stop, which has always been colorblindness and equality under the law. The true north on race relations.

I get your analogy about Upton Sinclair not getting the results he intended. I think though you're playing with fire (literally) when you outsource to CRT radicals the opportunity to define and enflame the worst parts of US history. I don't trust these a$$holes at all and think the growing pains of the nation's race relations can be done without need to include them. You stir rage and resentment in black kids and discourage effort by convincing them the system is rigged against them. Meanwhile you build collective guilt and shame in white kids. The hyperfocus on race builds on the resentment rather than try to put the flames out.

[The Real timschochet 6,629]

29 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

Thank You for taking the time. My point is that you need CRT to teach the ugly and then flawed racial problems that have existed in the US. We were already getting a good dose of that in school in the 80s, when CRT was just the plaything of fringe Marxists that mostly talked to each other in empty rooms and got ignored by the mainstream of academic society. Turning over the teaching of American history and civics to people who despise American history and civics is societal suicide.

I've long disagreed with you on the extent that racism is central and systemic. The laws were changed in the 60s and whatever vestiges of it have long since faded. All I've seen my whole life is the country bending over backwards to help black folks, they get way more help than I ever got. All the systemic racism you claim exists flows in 180 degrees, the exact opposite direction that you claim it does, and further it's been that way all our lives. (I'm 51). If that assistance was targeted to kids growing up in the inner-city ghettos with schools almost entirely minority, that would have been at least understandable. It's hard to climb out of that destitute environment. But that's not how it works. When you go to a low-income area of mixed races and say only these kids are worth helping and being offered assistance while these ones aren't, and that's based on the color of their skin, you're going to breed anger and resentments. Systemic racism is a fantasy long since irradiated, but if you could actually point it out, I would join you in getting rid of it. We're at a point where it's long gone and the pendulum has swung way far beyond where it ever needed to stop, which has always been colorblindness and equality under the law. The true north on race relations.

I get your analogy about Upton Sinclair not getting the results he intended. I think though you're playing with fire (literally) when you outsource to CRT radicals the opportunity to define and enflame the worst parts of US history. I don't trust these a$$holes at all and think the growing pains of the nation's race relations can be done without need to include them. You stir rage and resentment in black kids and discourage effort by convincing them the system is rigged against them. Meanwhile you build collective guilt and shame in white kids. The hyperfocus on race builds on the resentment rather than try to put the flames out.

Appreciate the discussion. We definitely disagree on a lot of this. Yet I believe you are extremely well meaning. I hope you believe the same of me. And this is the sort of discussion people need in these times, disagreement without demonization. 

[shadrap 227]

14 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Appreciate the discussion. We definitely disagree on a lot of this. Yet I believe you are extremely well meaning. I hope you believe the same of me. And this is the sort of discussion people need in these times, disagreement without demonization. 

my disagreement with you is that you give people a pass for behavior in these times.  these same folks take that as a reason to do what they do.  time to stand up, look in the mirror, and be cognizant of the fact that I'm a FOCK UP & only I can change it.  White, Black or Purple.  Happened to me a long time ago.  You give people an excuse for being terrible people.  that is not good for anyone. I repeat, that is not good for anyone.  excuses wear really thin after the stats come out & we see what is happening. we are long past that.

[Voltaire 5,281]

4 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Appreciate the discussion. We definitely disagree on a lot of this. Yet I believe you are extremely well meaning. I hope you believe the same of me. And this is the sort of discussion people need in these times, disagreement without demonization. 

I do feel that way. Further, you've been better to me than I've been to you, and I know it. I've not once seen you take a cheap shot at me and I know I've done it to you although I'm going to try to stop moving forward. 

Often with you I get to a point where I think reasonable people can disagree.

Then there's O'Shae Sibley... watching HellToupee's video, seeing Sibley storm across the gas station and through the guy trying to calm him down to chase down the Muslim teenager... I can't wrap my head around how anybody watching that can buy into the MSM narrative on what transpired.  But yet you did. Now I've seen you back up when you realize you've made a mistake and I respect that. I do the same, I've abandoned a position when the evidence points the other way. It seems once that video surfaced, that should have been the clarity needed to end of the story. 'Oh, this is all a MSM hoax,'  but you wouldn't go there, deferring to the prosecutor's discretion to go after the teenager. And apparently the same with Michael Brown in Ferguson before you got here as well as Kyle Rittenhouse.

[The Real timschochet 6,629]

2 hours ago, Voltaire said:

I do feel that way. Further, you've been better to me than I've been to you, and I know it. I've not once seen you take a cheap shot at me and I know I've done it to you although I'm going to try to stop moving forward. 

Often with you I get to a point where I think reasonable people can disagree.

Then there's O'Shae Sibley... watching HellToupee's video, seeing Sibley storm across the gas station and through the guy trying to calm him down to chase down the Muslim teenager... I can't wrap my head around how anybody watching that can buy into the MSM narrative on what transpired.  But yet you did. Now I've seen you back up when you realize you've made a mistake and I respect that. I do the same, I've abandoned a position when the evidence points the other way. It seems once that video surfaced, that should have been the clarity needed to end of the story. 'Oh, this is all a MSM hoax,'  but you wouldn't go there, deferring to the prosecutor's discretion to go after the teenager. And apparently the same with Michael Brown in Ferguson before you got here as well as Kyle Rittenhouse.

I certainly see many of those incidents differently than you do. 

[The Real timschochet 6,629]

2 hours ago, shadrap said:

my disagreement with you is that you give people a pass for behavior in these times.  these same folks take that as a reason to do what they do.  time to stand up, look in the mirror, and be cognizant of the fact that I'm a FOCK UP & only I can change it.  White, Black or Purple.  Happened to me a long time ago.  You give people an excuse for being terrible people.  that is not good for anyone. I repeat, that is not good for anyone.  excuses wear really thin after the stats come out & we see what is happening. we are long past that.

I think systemic racism is a problem but it doesn’t cause me to excuse individual bad behavior. If somebody commits a crime that person deserves to be punished for that crime. I’ve never thought otherwise. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,263]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

I think systemic racism is a problem but it doesn’t cause me to excuse individual bad behavior. If somebody commits a crime that person deserves to be punished for that crime. I’ve never thought otherwise. 

Except if they are here illegally. They get a pass 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,315]

ok all I hear is Matt Gaetz is such an extremist, I challenge all the lefties here to listen to the first 15 mins and let me know where is his extremism here, and what does he say that you adamentally disagree with

 

[RogerDodger 798]

39 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I think systemic racism is a problem but it doesn’t cause me to excuse individual bad behavior. If somebody commits a crime that person deserves to be punished for that crime. I’ve never thought otherwise. 

Automatic felony. Fine, up to 6 months in prison and then deportation of every illegal.  

[thegeneral 3,121]

Fockstick weighs in

“Despite federal criminal proceedings being exempt from shutdowns, Trump posted on his social media platform, Truth Social, on Wednesday evening, “A very important deadline is approaching at the end of the month,” in reference to the Sept. 30 deadline to pass a funding bill.

Republicans in Congress can and must defund all aspects of Crooked Joe Biden’s weaponized Government that refuses to close the Border, and treats half the Country as Enemies of the State," he wrote. “This is also the last chance to defund these political prosecutions against me and other Patriots.” 

Trump added: “They failed on the debt limit, but they must not fail now. Use the power of the purse and defend the Country!”

The office of House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., did not immediately respond to a request for comment.”

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,315]

3 hours ago, thegeneral said:

Fockstick weighs in

“Despite federal criminal proceedings being exempt from shutdowns, Trump posted on his social media platform, Truth Social, on Wednesday evening, “A very important deadline is approaching at the end of the month,” in reference to the Sept. 30 deadline to pass a funding bill.

Republicans in Congress can and must defund all aspects of Crooked Joe Biden’s weaponized Government that refuses to close the Border, and treats half the Country as Enemies of the State," he wrote. “This is also the last chance to defund these political prosecutions against me and other Patriots.” 

Trump added: “They failed on the debt limit, but they must not fail now. Use the power of the purse and defend the Country!”

The office of House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., did not immediately respond to a request for comment.”

 

trump nailed it

[seafoam1 2,919]

5 hours ago, thegeneral said:

Fockstick weighs in

“Despite federal criminal proceedings being exempt from shutdowns, Trump posted on his social media platform, Truth Social, on Wednesday evening, “A very important deadline is approaching at the end of the month,” in reference to the Sept. 30 deadline to pass a funding bill.

Republicans in Congress can and must defund all aspects of Crooked Joe Biden’s weaponized Government that refuses to close the Border, and treats half the Country as Enemies of the State," he wrote. “This is also the last chance to defund these political prosecutions against me and other Patriots.” 

Trump added: “They failed on the debt limit, but they must not fail now. Use the power of the purse and defend the Country!”

The office of House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., did not immediately respond to a request for comment.”

 

Trump nailed it x2.

[The Real timschochet 6,629]

On 9/22/2023 at 12:36 AM, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

trump nailed it

I can understand being opposed to this particular policy or that one. I can even understand your opposition to our support of Ukraine, however strongly I might disagree. 
 

But I can’t understand this nihilistic “let’s blow it all up” mentality. Our economy is fragile at the moment. A government shutdown would be a serious disaster. Lots of people will be hurt. Is that what you truly want? Just so you can stick your finger in the eyes of some liberals? I just can’t believe that is anyone’s goal. 

[seafoam1 2,919]

16 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I can understand being opposed to this particular policy or that one. I can even understand your opposition to our support of Ukraine, however strongly I might disagree. 
 

But I can’t understand this nihilistic “let’s blow it all up” mentality. Our economy is fragile at the moment. A government shutdown would be a serious disaster. Lots of people will be hurt. Is that what you truly want? Just so you can stick your finger in the eyes of some liberals? I just can’t believe that is anyone’s goal. 

What do they do to a broken down building with  bad foundation if they want a solid structure to be on that lot?

Hint, they tear it down.

[Voltaire 5,281]

I'm confident that going to get some fiscal restraint and a serious attempt to balance the budget.

[Cdub100 3,887]

I learned I will still have to work if the government shuts down, but will probably still get paid.

[thegeneral 3,121]

28 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I can understand being opposed to this particular policy or that one. I can even understand your opposition to our support of Ukraine, however strongly I might disagree. 
 

But I can’t understand this nihilistic “let’s blow it all up” mentality. Our economy is fragile at the moment. A government shutdown would be a serious disaster. Lots of people will be hurt. Is that what you truly want? Just so you can stick your finger in the eyes of some liberals? I just can’t believe that is anyone’s goal. 

The babe in the woods act

[Hardcore troubadour 15,263]

I learned I will still have all my taxes taken out of my check. 

[The Real timschochet 6,629]

27 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

The babe in the woods act

Nah- I’m not surprised by it. I know the feeling is out there. But I’ve never understood it. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,315]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

I can understand being opposed to this particular policy or that one. I can even understand your opposition to our support of Ukraine, however strongly I might disagree. 
 

But I can’t understand this nihilistic “let’s blow it all up” mentality. Our economy is fragile at the moment. A government shutdown would be a serious disaster. Lots of people will be hurt. Is that what you truly want? Just so you can stick your finger in the eyes of some liberals? I just can’t believe that is anyone’s goal. 

I posted a video of Matt Gaetz just up above. Everything he says makes sense to me. You get the jist of it in 15 mins. The system is broken and nobody on the left wants to fix it. So yes I’d rather blow something up that isn’t working then continue 

single voting on spending. I don’t see how someone could disagree 

the dollar is worthless. BRICS is going to take over. I guess you prefer to do nothing. 
 

please watch and one of the most important takes is that they never do anything til the shutdown almost comes they had 6 months to work on things and don’t just do they can pass this avoid shutdown garbage every time 

[The Real timschochet 6,629]

Some info I was reading this morning: 

1. The current annual deficit is 2 trillion. 

2. If current spending levels continue, the annual deficit is estimated to be 3 trillion in 10 years. 

3. 90% of the deficit is due to non-discretionary spending: defense, Social Security, and Medicare (the big 3).

4. The extreme conservatives threatening a government shutdown are only demanding cuts to discretionary spending- mainly Democratic programs they don’t like. 

5. Even if these conservatives get everything they want, the annual deficit will be increased to 2.8 trillion in 10 years instead of 3 trillion in 10 years- a meaningless reduction. 

6. They also refuse to raise any taxes, which is the only other way to reduce the deficit. 
 

So basically this is all for show. When conservatives tell you they’re concerned about spending levels they either are being disingenuous or else they don’t really understand the above facts. Unless they also add that they are seeking to reduce spending on defense, social security, or Medicare, or willing to raise taxes. 

[zsasz 368]

47 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Some info I was reading this morning: 

1. The current annual deficit is 2 trillion. 

2. If current spending levels continue, the annual deficit is estimated to be 3 trillion in 10 years. 

3. 90% of the deficit is due to non-discretionary spending: defense, Social Security, and Medicare (the big 3).

4. The extreme conservatives threatening a government shutdown are only demanding cuts to discretionary spending- mainly Democratic programs they don’t like. 

5. Even if these conservatives get everything they want, the annual deficit will be increased to 2.8 trillion in 10 years instead of 3 trillion in 10 years- a meaningless reduction. 

6. They also refuse to raise any taxes, which is the only other way to reduce the deficit. 
 

So basically this is all for show. When conservatives tell you they’re concerned about spending levels they either are being disingenuous or else they don’t really understand the above facts. Unless they also add that they are seeking to reduce spending on defense, social security, or Medicare, or willing to raise taxes. 

Exactly.  If Conservatives were actually interested in being "conservative"....more people would be open to listen.   Where are the legit, morally decent Conservatives who could lead this Party?  

[Cdub100 3,887]

Starting to draft furlough letters. About 90% of my team will be sent home including my boss. So I will be acting Chief

And don't worry everyone will get back pay once it ends.

[Baker Boy 1,694]

The government is set to shut down in 11 hours and President Joe Biden is in Michigan virtue signaling by walking the picket lines.

[RLLD 4,194]

2 minutes ago, Baker Boy said:

The government is set to shut down in 11 hours and President Joe Biden is in Michigan virtue signaling by walking the picket lines.

Make no mistake, Democrats warmly welcome a shutdown. It helps them in many ways.  Does it hurt people? Sure, but so what Democrats don't care about people, they show this every.....single....day.....

[The Real timschochet 6,629]

2 minutes ago, RLLD said:

Make no mistake, Democrats warmly welcome a shutdown. It helps them in many ways.  Does it hurt people? Sure, but so what Democrats don't care about people, they show this every.....single....day.....

What should the Democrats do to avoid a shutdown? 

[Baker Boy 1,694]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

What should the Democrats do to avoid a shutdown? 

Walk the picket lines in Michigan.

The point is they do not want to avoid a shut down and never have.

[RLLD 4,194]

4 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

What should the Democrats do to avoid a shutdown? 

I do not think they can do anything, and nor will they.  They win politically from this in many ways, so they are only to happy to just let it happen.

[The Real timschochet 6,629]

6 minutes ago, RLLD said:

I do not think they can do anything, and nor will they.  They win politically from this in many ways, so they are only to happy to just let it happen.

But you guys are acting like it’s their fault. In point of fact they have nothing to do with it. This is all about a civil war within the GOP. 

[RLLD 4,194]

17 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

But you guys are acting like it’s their fault. In point of fact they have nothing to do with it. This is all about a civil war within the GOP. 

Not at all.  I am pointing out that this is politically advantageous for them.  There is a small set of Republicans who want to dig in their heels on what appear, to my eyes, to be wrong-place-wrong-time issues to hold up the process.  

In general I tend to not have a big problem with it, there was a time when the lethargy of the system was lamented, back in the 90's, and it was foresaken with the more immediate gratification approaches under which we now suffer. So I prefer the lethargy.

If you are a Democrat, you just sit back and throw stones, and enjoy how it impedes discovery around Biden as well.....they win every whuch way.

[The Real timschochet 6,629]

5 minutes ago, RLLD said:

Not at all.  I am pointing out that this is politically advantageous for them.  There is a small set of Republicans who want to dig in their heels on what appear, to my eyes, to be wrong-place-wrong-time issues to hold up the process.  

In general I tend to not have a big problem with it, there was a time when the lethargy of the system was lamented, back in the 90's, and it was foresaken with the more immediate gratification approaches under which we now suffer. So I prefer the lethargy.

If you are a Democrat, you just sit back and throw stones, and enjoy how it impedes discovery around Biden as well.....they win every whuch way.

I am a Democrat and I very much do not wish to see a shutdown. Far too many people will be hurt. 

[Strike 5,417]

On 9/24/2023 at 8:59 AM, The Real timschochet said:

Some info I was reading this morning: 

1. The current annual deficit is 2 trillion. 

2. If current spending levels continue, the annual deficit is estimated to be 3 trillion in 10 years. 

3. 90% of the deficit is due to non-discretionary spending: defense, Social Security, and Medicare (the big 3).

4. The extreme conservatives threatening a government shutdown are only demanding cuts to discretionary spending- mainly Democratic programs they don’t like. 

5. Even if these conservatives get everything they want, the annual deficit will be increased to 2.8 trillion in 10 years instead of 3 trillion in 10 years- a meaningless reduction. 

6. They also refuse to raise any taxes, which is the only other way to reduce the deficit. 
 

So basically this is all for show. When conservatives tell you they’re concerned about spending levels they either are being disingenuous or else they don’t really understand the above facts. Unless they also add that they are seeking to reduce spending on defense, social security, or Medicare, or willing to raise taxes. 

Link?

[RLLD 4,194]

19 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I am a Democrat and I very much do not wish to see a shutdown. Far too many people will be hurt. 

But you do not hold power in the Senate or White House or House of Rep.....and those people relish this.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,263]

I look forward to paying my taxes during this shutdown and my life not being affected either way. 

[Baker Boy 1,694]

On 9/24/2023 at 7:59 AM, The Real timschochet said:

Some info I was reading this morning: 

1. The current annual deficit is 2 trillion. 

2. If current spending levels continue, the annual deficit is estimated to be 3 trillion in 10 years. 

3. 90% of the deficit is due to non-discretionary spending: defense, Social Security, and Medicare (the big 3).

4. The extreme conservatives threatening a government shutdown are only demanding cuts to discretionary spending- mainly Democratic programs they don’t like. 

5. Even if these conservatives get everything they want, the annual deficit will be increased to 2.8 trillion in 10 years instead of 3 trillion in 10 years- a meaningless reduction. 

6. They also refuse to raise any taxes, which is the only other way to reduce the deficit. 
 

So basically this is all for show. When conservatives tell you they’re concerned about spending levels they either are being disingenuous or else they don’t really understand the above facts. Unless they also add that they are seeking to reduce spending on defense, social security, or Medicare, or willing to raise taxes. 

3. The actual number is 74%
6. The last three major tax reductions, under Kennedy, Reagan, and Trump all resulted in record revenues for the federal government. 
 

I believe if we cut the waste and corruption in government spending we could cut ours budget in half. We are one of the most corrupt countries in the world.

[RogerDodger 798]

Poll reported by NBC, who would you blame if there is a shutdown?

40% Dems

33% Repub

Shut'r down. 

[Ultra Max Power 214]

9 hours ago, RLLD said:

Not at all.  I am pointing out that this is politically advantageous for them.  There is a small set of Republicans who want to dig in their heels on what appear, to my eyes, to be wrong-place-wrong-time issues to hold up the process.  

Its one of the few times they have leverage.  I like seeing the vocal minority throw its weight around when they can.  The status quo is broken and change has to start somewhere. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,263]

Hasn’t the government in San Francisco been shut down for a while now? 

[The Real timschochet 6,629]

One day away. 
 

I’m not quite clear on why they’re doing this. Is there a specific goal in mind? I also am not sure how, once this starts, it will end. 

[Cdub100 3,887]

5 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

One day away. 
 

I’m not quite clear on why they’re doing this. Is there a specific goal in mind? I also am not sure how, once this starts, it will end. 

Because one side thinks it will hurt the other more.