Confederate Memorial at Arlington National Cemetery to be removed

[Baker Boy 1,699]

3 hours ago, Ron_Artest said:

Why do you want to keep statues of Democrats?

For the opposite reason you want to tear them down. To remind us who the Democrats really are and their terrible history since the founding of the party.

statues and memorials are torn down in countries during time of revolution. Although many people don’t realize it yet, there is a revolution going on in this country and they are tearing down their own statues.

[Voltaire 5,316]

53 minutes ago, Baker Boy said:

For the opposite reason you want to tear them down. To remind us who the Democrats really are and their terrible history since the founding of the party.

statues and memorials are torn down in countries during time of revolution. Although many people don’t realize it yet, there is a revolution going on in this country and they are tearing down their own statues.

'They" aren't tearing down their own statues and "they" sure as hell aren't stopping at tearing down Confederate statues.

In California, "they" voted to paint over a George Washington mural, in New York City it's Teddy Roosevelt "they" took down, while in Oregon "they' removed the Pioneer statue.  "They" erased Laura Ingalls Wilder's name from a children's author award and "they" are even re-naming bird species.

Links to all claims:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/07/11/san-francisco-mural-academics-george-washington-history/1689543001/  

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teddy-roosevelt-statue-new-york-natural-history-museum-removal/

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pioneer_(Eugene,_Oregon)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Literature_Legacy_Award 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/us/bird-species-names-changing-scn-cec/index.html

[The Real timschochet 6,765]

36 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

'They" aren't tearing down their own statues and "they" sure as hell aren't stopping at tearing down Confederate statues.

In California, "they" voted to paint over a George Washington mural, in New York City it's Teddy Roosevelt "they" took down, while in Oregon "they' removed the Pioneer statue.  "They" erased Laura Ingalls Wilder's name from a children's author award and "they" are even re-naming bird species.

Links to all claims:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/07/11/san-francisco-mural-academics-george-washington-history/1689543001/  

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teddy-roosevelt-statue-new-york-natural-history-museum-removal/

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pioneer_(Eugene,_Oregon)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Literature_Legacy_Award 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/us/bird-species-names-changing-scn-cec/index.html

This is wrong. You know I generally think woke is a good thing but this is woke carried too far. 

[The Real timschochet 6,765]

When conservatives want to edit our history books in schools  to remove any references to critical race theory or 1619 I am always opposed. Why are they scared to teach our history, the good parts and the bad parts? Well removing these statues is the same thing. Both sides want to erase whatever displeased them about our past. I will always fight against this, 

[seafoam1 3,025]

12 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

When conservatives want to edit our history books in schools  to remove any references to critical race theory or 1619 I am always opposed. Why are they scared to teach our history, the good parts and the bad parts? Well removing these statues is the same thing. Both sides want to erase whatever displeased them about our past. I will always fight against this, 

Why don't you try to give some validity to your "critical race theory" and "1619" bullshlt? 

You can't. It doesn't exist. 

[5-Points 3,533]

Let's remove statues we don't like. How ISISy of them. 

I can't blame the democrats for wanting to do this. They want to get rid of all the vestiges of their past. They have to erase history before they can rewrite it. 

[Voltaire 5,316]

24 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

When conservatives want to edit our history books in schools  to remove any references to critical race theory or 1619 I am always opposed. Why are they scared to teach our history, the good parts and the bad parts? Well removing these statues is the same thing. Both sides want to erase whatever displeased them about our past. I will always fight against this, 

LOL at it being us editing the history books. As if we don't remember the history books from our youths.

We didn't have a plague of American students supporting Hamas and tearing down George Washington statues before the Howard Zinns and Nikole Hannah Joneses of the world came along with their fake-ass history.

We know who the liars are, just like we know who's been editing the history books.

 

 

[The Real timschochet 6,765]

5 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Why don't you try to give some validity to your "critical race theory" and "1619" bullshlt? 

You can't. It doesn't exist. 

There’s plenty of books out there that give validity to both concepts. You’re welcome to read them. If you’re too lazy to read books the Hulu show “The 1619 Project” provides a decent summary. 
 

Conservatives rightfully point out that it was the Democratic Party who wanted to maintain slavery and the Republican Party who ended it. I don’t understand why they then insist on hiding the details of slavery. 

[Voltaire 5,316]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

I don’t understand why they then insist on hiding the details of slavery. 

They don't. That's another of the long list of lies being told to you, that you swallow uncritically.

[The Real timschochet 6,765]

2 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

LOL at it being us editing the history books.

Like we had a plague of American students supporting Hamas and tearing down George Washington statues before the Howard Zinns and Nikole Hannah Joneses of the world came along with their fake-ass history.

We know who the liars are.

 

 

I always thought Howard Zinn was too much of an angry writer but his facts, so far as I know, were well researched and very accurate. Since you refer to him as “fake-ass” I challenge you to come up with an example of something he deliberately got wrong. 

[The Real timschochet 6,765]

Just now, Voltaire said:

They don't. That's another of the long list of lies being told to you, that you swallow uncritically.

Really? Then why shouldn’t the 1619 Project be taught? 

[5-Points 3,533]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

There’s plenty of books out there that give validity to both concepts. You’re welcome to read them. If you’re too lazy to read books the Hulu show “The 1619 Project” provides a decent summary. 
 

Conservatives rightfully point out that it was the Democratic Party who wanted to maintain slavery and the Republican Party who ended it. I don’t understand why they then insist on hiding the details of slavery. 

Who wants to hide the details? I think it does current and future generations a disservice to continue to fan the flames of past injustices in order to garner support for a current political ideology. 

Teach the history of slavery. All of it. From its inception to today. Who started it, who benefited from it and who continues the practice today. 

Stop cherry picking the worst aspects of slavery in America and trying to blame the existence of the entire institution on white men. 

In short, be honest or stfu. 

 

[seafoam1 3,025]

11 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

There’s plenty of books out there that give validity to both concepts. You’re welcome to read them. If you’re too lazy to read books the Hulu show “The 1619 Project” provides a decent summary. 
 

Conservatives rightfully point out that it was the Democratic Party who wanted to maintain slavery and the Republican Party who ended it. I don’t understand why they then insist on hiding the details of slavery. 

So your take is, "Go read the propaganda that I read". 

Great...

[The Real timschochet 6,765]

Just now, 5-Points said:

Who wants to hide the details? I think it does current and future generations a disservice to continue to fan the flames of past injustices in order to garner support for a current political ideology. 

Teach the history of slavery. All of it. From its inception to today. Who started it, who benefited from it and who continues the practice today. 

Stop cherry picking the worst aspects of slavery in America and trying to blame the existence of the entire institution on white men. 

In short, be honest or stfu. 

 

Well I DO think that American history should focus on American slavery and only touch on world slavery as an aside- call me ethnocentric, lol, 

I also think that the slavery that existed in the New World (not just the USA but in Haiti, Jamaica, etc,) is unique because of its racial aspects. In the past and present, slavery is an aspect of economic and national functions- our slavery was a matter of skin color, which makes it unique and, IMO, worse.

White people in this country behaved terribly both before and after slavery. They also behaved honorably and heroically. We need to acknowledge both truths and celebrate the grandeur of our history, dark and light. 

[seafoam1 3,025]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

Well I DO think that American history should focus on American slavery and only touch on world slavery as an aside- call me ethnocentric, lol, 

I also think that the slavery that existed in the New World (not just the USA but in Haiti, Jamaica, etc,) is unique because of its racial aspects. In the past and present, slavery is an aspect of economic and national functions- our slavery was a matter of skin color, which makes it unique and, IMO, worse.

White people in this country behaved terribly both before and after slavery. They also behaved honorably and heroically. We need to acknowledge both truths and celebrate the grandeur of our history, dark and light. 

Black people enslaved and sold black people to other people.

Many races including whites were enslaved and sold and used and it's still happening today in places like Africa. Why are you spending so much time whing about a free society? 

 

[The Real timschochet 6,765]

Let me offer an example of somebody who is not being taught about or remembered correctly: 

Nathan Bedford Forrest is one of the most fascinating characters in American history. He was a slave trader before the war who treated blacks cruelly. As a solider he was so outraged by black soldiers that he murdered hundreds of those he encountered, including one infamous massacre late in the war. After the way he introduced the Ku Klux Klan to Tennessee. 
 

Yet Forrest was one of the most brilliant military minds who ever lived. Untrained he created his own tactics and strategy that revolutionized mobile warfare and predicted World War I and World War II. He was loyal to his soldiers and treated them well and they loved him. After the war he befriended many blacks and helped them start businesses and founded colleges to help them advance in society. He also spoke out in defense of the plight of Native Americans. 
 

Leftists have largely succeeded in erasing this man’s memory from the tributes and statues he has received over the years. Meanwhile White supremacist groups honor his name only for his racist activities, ignoring the rest. I would love for this fascinating and complex figure to be taught about for both his greatness and flaws. But apparently we are too simplistic a society to do so. 

[Voltaire 5,316]

Just now, The Real timschochet said:

I always thought Howard Zinn was too much of an angry writer but his facts, so far as I know, were well researched and very accurate. Since you refer to him as “fake-ass” I challenge you to come up with an example of something he deliberately got wrong. 

OMG! What did he get right?

It's all second hand sources with little-to-no primary source material. Nor footnotes to even verify any of the bullsh*t stories that appear nowhere else. It's not history is anti-American propaganda that he makes all up... all being told from an America sucks perspective by a Marxist.

Same with the 1619 project.

 

[The Real timschochet 6,765]

4 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Black people enslaved and sold black people to other people.

Many races including whites were enslaved and sold and used and it's still happening today in places like Africa. Why are you spending so much time whing about a free society? 

 

Focusing. Not whining. Because I believe in America First. 

[The Real timschochet 6,765]

Just now, Voltaire said:

OMG! What did he get right?

It's all second hand sources with little-to-no primary source material. Nor footnotes to even verify any of the bullsh*t stories that appear nowhere else. It's not history is anti-American propaganda that he makes all up... all being told from an America sucks perspective by a Marxist.

Same with the 1619 project.

 

He probably was a Marxist. Can you provide a specific example that you doubt? That you’re skeptical of? 

[MDC 7,428]

They should put all the confederate memorials in a national Museum of Treason along with 1/6 stuff.  

[Voltaire 5,316]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

He probably was a Marxist. Can you provide a specific example that you doubt? That you’re skeptical of? 

I don't have a copy of his book and haven't read excerpts in a very, very longtime.. The best I can do at present is link to an eight page critical review of it... 

https://www.aft.org/sites/default/files/Wineburg.pdf

I can probably do the same with an online source but I'd be relearning the objections as I go.

 

[5-Points 3,533]

44 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Well I DO think that American history should focus on American slavery and only touch on world slavery as an aside- call me ethnocentric, lol, 

I also think that the slavery that existed in the New World (not just the USA but in Haiti, Jamaica, etc,) is unique because of its racial aspects. In the past and present, slavery is an aspect of economic and national functions- our slavery was a matter of skin color, which makes it unique and, IMO, worse.

White people in this country behaved terribly both before and after slavery. They also behaved honorably and heroically. We need to acknowledge both truths and celebrate the grandeur of our history, dark and light. 

Then you would have to include the fact that, before the white man got here, the various Indian tribes regularly enslaved the survivors of other tribes they had conquered in battle. And those slaves suffered miserable existences until they died or were traded. 

And that white people were also slaves in this country, since you seem to think it was only a black thing. 

Then you'd have to continue with the fact that descendents of slavery in America have benefited from being the descendents of slaves in America. They were born into the greatest country in the world and have enjoyed all of the freedoms that comes with that. They have been afforded more opportunity to determine their own destiny here than have their peers in other countries around the world. 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,106]

11 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

Then you would have to include the fact that before the white man got here, the various Indian tribes regularly enslaved the survivors of other tribes they had conquered in battle. And those slaves suffered miserable existences until they died or were traded. 

And that white people were also slaves in this country, since you seem to think it was only a black thing. 

Then you'd have to continue with the fact that descendents of slavery in America have benefited from being the descendents of slaves in America. They were born into the greatest country in the world and have enjoyed all of the freedoms that comes with that. They have been afforded more opportunity to determine their own destiny here than have their peers in other countries around the world. 

Yep! 

But liberals have an agenda and propaganda to push - Slavery was only created by white people and it only started in America.

After all, you can't get money and power and victim status if you tell people the truth.   So the grift remains.

[HellToupee 1,776]

50 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

1619 Project

c’mon man. Not ever your sidekick squissy believes that 1619 BS

[5-Points 3,533]

6 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

Yep! 

But liberals have an agenda and propaganda to push - Slavery was only created by white people and it only started in America.

After all, you can't get money and power and victim status if you tell people the truth.   So the grift remains.

Gotta keep em down. If you give them hope, they might decide to venture off the plantation. 

[seafoam1 3,025]

37 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Focusing. Not whining. Because I believe in America First. 

That's why you hire illegals. 

[Mark Davis 398]

8 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

c’mon man. Not ever your sidekick squissy believes that 1619 BS

I like how they want to "reframe" American history into these Marxist and oppressed vs oppressor views.  It's a cancer to our country and we are starting to see the larger effects of these Marxist ideologies with these college campus issues today.  If not for the West, the history of the world would be much, much worse.  These people are just useful idiots to those who want to forward their Marxist world view.

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,106]

41 minutes ago, Mark Davis said:

I like how they want to "reframe" American history into these Marxist and oppressed vs oppressor views.  It's a cancer to our country and we are starting to see the larger effects of these Marxist ideologies with these college campus issues today.  If not for the West, the history of the world would be much, much worse.  These people are just useful idiots to those who want to forward their Marxist world view.

They're going to be lined up against the wall like everyone else once their "usefulness" is done.  They'll NEVER pass the purity test - the Commies and Marxists will make sure of that.

You might ask, "Well how do you know ESC?".  Well, we have the entirety of the 20th century and part of the 21st as proof.  Over 100+ million killed who couldn't pass the purity tests that Marx, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, The Uns of NK and a whole host of other Commie/Marxist Purity Leaders across the word have administered.  Heck, they even erased them from photos.

[BrahmaBulls 764]

9 hours ago, Ron_Artest said:

Cry more about statues of people that lost the war, snowflake.

Good take, boyo

[Hardcore troubadour 15,433]

The Taliban blew statues up.  Nice company you’re keeping libtards.  

[peenie 1,915]

You guys, Robert E. Lee’s history is not erased because this statue was taken down. It’s an old statue that I doubt any of you even saw or paid any attention to IF you even ever bothered to visit the Arlington Cemetery. It was created a half century after he lived and remained up for over a century. Let it Go! More things are to come to celebrate other great things in our history: 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0ow6f3uDhS/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

[seafoam1 3,025]

10 hours ago, peenie said:

You guys, Robert E. Lee’s history is not erased because this statue was taken down. It’s an old statue that I doubt any of you even saw or paid any attention to IF you even ever bothered to visit the Arlington Cemetery. It was created a half century after he lived and remained up for over a century. Let it Go! More things are to come to celebrate other great things in our history: 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0ow6f3uDhS/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

Because remembering history is about taking down old things and putting up new things. 

They should replace all those old things in museums around the world and put up your kid's finger paintings. Who needs that old crap painted by Rembrandt? We should get rid of the WW2 museun in New Orleans and replace it with a Toyota dealership.

[RLLD 4,230]

Given the Liberal inclination to totalitarianism and theocracy(with their party being the religion) it adds up.  If you look at the zealots who went in and destroyed ancient carvings etc in places like Iran or Afghanistan, you can observe these behaviors of Liberals as being more or less congruent....

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,350]

4 hours ago, seafoam1 said:

Because remembering history is about taking down old things and putting up new things. 

They should replace all those old things in museums around the world and put up your kid's finger paintings. Who needs that old crap painted by Rembrandt? We should get rid of the WW2 museun in New Orleans and replace it with a Toyota dealership.

To be fair they are celebrating the death to Jews outside the WW2 museum constantly 

[Dizkneelande 1,101]

17 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Really? Then why shouldn’t the 1619 Project be taught? 

You do this constantly. It’s why people think you are nothing more than a pathetic troll. I and many others highlighted the numerous issues, fallacies and outright lies of the 1619 project in another thread. You took your ball and ran home. Then, down the road you regurgitate the same garbage. Go get a hobby loser. 

[RLLD 4,230]

14 minutes ago, Dizkneelande said:

You do this constantly. It’s why people think you are nothing more than a pathetic troll. I and many others highlighted the numerous issues, fallacies and outright lies of the 1619 project in another thread. You took your ball and ran home. Then, down the road you regurgitate the same garbage. Go get a hobby loser. 

1619 is problematic, but also consistent with standard Liberal doctrine that makes rancid assertions and when challenged turns the situation back around on the critic asserting that THEY are the problem.

The 1619 interpretation of history places slavery as the cause of everything in the Marxists’ roll of America’s faults. These distortions feed an immature narrative that makes American history a tale of oppression. It elevates the worst of our past, ignoring the good things.  Because anything bad negates anything good, even worse, nothing good is relevant anymore...

This hate.....is poisonous and it ignores too much. 

1619 leverages the "inquiry model"  which can be useful, but any tool that is improperly implemented can be dangrous....and particularly at the high school level were it is weilded in a particularly sinister way.....

What we face is faux intellect.   Its the revisiting of everything based on skin color.......and the application of intent.....and then the malignment of everything, no matter how good it is.....as being the product of evil.   Its a pathetic and repugnant revision of the world to feed the Marxists need to have an army of victims at its disposal to assail others. 

[Dizkneelande 1,101]

7 minutes ago, RLLD said:

1619 is problematic, but also consistent with standard Liberal doctrine that makes rancid assertions and when challenged turns the situation back around on the critic asserting that THEY are the problem.

The 1619 interpretation of history places slavery as the cause of everything in the Marxists’ roll of America’s faults. These distortions feed an immature narrative that makes American history a tale of oppression. It elevates the worst of our past, ignoring the good things.  Because anything bad negates anything good, even worse, nothing good is relevant anymore...

This hate.....is poisonous and it ignores too much. 

1619 leverages the "inquiry model"  which can be useful, but any tool that is improperly implemented can be dangrous....and particularly at the high school level were it is weilded in a particularly sinister way.....

What we face is faux intellect.   Its the revisiting of everything based on skin color.......and the application of intent.....and then the malignment of everything, no matter how good it is.....as being the product of evil.   Its a pathetic and repugnant revision of the world to feed the Marxists need to have an army of victims at its disposal to assail others. 

Yes you are 100% they are disastrous for society but the issues we have with these people (leftist) run deeper. I don’t know if you were at the other board for any period of time but, these same people argued that these ideologies would never permeate outside of small groups imbedded in elite universities. They would never support that. We told these idiots that’s bulls!t  what happens when they graduate and seek out employment in our institutions and corporate board rooms? Flash forward 10 years and they are now defending giving 3rd graders access to books depicting 2 prepubescent boys sucking each other off. 

[The Real timschochet 6,765]

19 minutes ago, Dizkneelande said:

Yes you are 100% they are disastrous for society but the issues we have with these people (leftist) run deeper. I don’t know if you were at the other board for any period of time but, these same people argued that these ideologies would never permeate outside of small groups imbedded in elite universities. They would never support that. We told these idiots that’s bulls!t  what happens when they graduate and seek out employment in our institutions and corporate board rooms? Flash forward 10 years and they are now defending giving 3rd graders access to books depicting 2 prepubescent boys sucking each other off. 

That wasn’t me. I honestly had no idea what the 1619 project was back then, I learned a lot about it watching the Hulu show (highly recommended.) 

You claim I ran away from the other thread. Which is more BS. I answered a few of the false claims, got insulted for my effort, and decided it was a waste of time, if I spent all my time demonstrating the various falsehoods posted around here I’d never have time for anything else, 

@RLLD’s analysis of the 1619 project is more slanted, IMO, than the project itself. He claims it focuses only on the negative aspects of our history but that’s certainly not the case. There are many many American heroes who fought against slavery and racism and the project absolutely pays attention to them. The most legitimate criticism against 1619 is not its historical inaccuracies (there aren’t many of rhese at all) or its important omissions, but, similar to CRT,  its claim that slavery and Jim Crow are central to the American story and not simply a bad and regrettable aspect of a bigger storyline. This is controversial for sure and in the end I probably don’t agree with it, mostly . But it’s a fascinating question and I certainly don’t mind it being taught to students as a possibility to consider. 

[RLLD 4,230]

30 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

That wasn’t me. I honestly had no idea what the 1619 project was back then, I learned a lot about it watching the Hulu show (highly recommended.) 

You claim I ran away from the other thread. Which is more BS. I answered a few of the false claims, got insulted for my effort, and decided it was a waste of time, if I spent all my time demonstrating the various falsehoods posted around here I’d never have time for anything else, 

@RLLD’s analysis of the 1619 project is more slanted, IMO, than the project itself. He claims it focuses only on the negative aspects of our history but that’s certainly not the case. There are many many American heroes who fought against slavery and racism and the project absolutely pays attention to them. The most legitimate criticism against 1619 is not its historical inaccuracies (there aren’t many of rhese at all) or its important omissions, but, similar to CRT,  its claim that slavery and Jim Crow are central to the American story and not simply a bad and regrettable aspect of a bigger storyline. This is controversial for sure and in the end I probably don’t agree with it, mostly . But it’s a fascinating question and I certainly don’t mind it being taught to students as a possibility to consider. 

I am slanted.  I am slanted against things that are objectively wrong.

THe 1619 strtegy works like this...... teachers provide short readings, photographs or snippets of film to students. The students examine these with a “critical” eye to determine the author’s point of view and biases. Presumably, the student can then separate facts from the writers’ opinions. Then, the students express their views prompted by a series of open-ended questions....with students then dutifully parroting the teachers views back and receiving praise for accepting the indoctrination through positive reinforcement in the form of grades.

With some diificulty we can pull back the faux veil of virtue that 1619 trots out to manipulate people into this false sense of morality they use to hide their actual actions.   Consider Debunking Howard Zinn,for example.   If we better illuminate the game we can clearly see how this group omitts so much information that its grains of truth become misleading and couples a distortion of American history with the romanticization of West African history.

It is remarkable that when challenged, as we observed with the Ivy league school presidents....the terms context and nuance are used abundantly to protect their obvious moral failures....but when reviewing history it is suddenly lost....