Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
MDC

Lamar Jackson wins 2nd MVP!

Recommended Posts

22 minutes ago, MLCKAA said:

I hear you and there are definitely things in sports that I wish hadn’t changed…let’s not talk about the 3 pt shot.

But, the running QB isn’t exactly a new thing.  In the early years of the league the QB essentially was an RB.

To me, I think it’s a compliment to Lamar to acknowledge that he can do both passing and running.  He had the same completion percentage as Mahomes this season with 7 fewer interceptions.  It’s tempting to suggest he had fewer interceptions because he had fewer attempts, but that argument goes down the tubes to INT% which was only 1.5% for Lamar and 2.3% for Mahomes.

As well, Lamar had a higher TD% than Mahomes at 5.3 vs 4.5.

So while he’s passing less than Mahomes, what he does with those passes is throw a lower percentage of turnovers and a higher percentage of touchdowns.

Mahomes threw 50% more interceptions while attempting only 23% more passes.

 

I'm not going to go look in to the stats you've posted to see if they're cherry picked or out of context.  Here are their career and head to head stats:

https://stathead.com/football/vs/lamar-jackson-vs-patrick-mahomes

Both the above link and my own eyes tell me Mahomes is a lot better QB than Jackson.  So do their accomplishments.  Jackson is not someone I want to have to rely on to PASS the ball in a CRUCIAL situation, which is what is required at some point in the journey to winning a SB. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Super Bowl MVP > Regular Season MVP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm asking a serious question:

Is the reason L. Jackson, M. Vick, P. Mahomes and R. Wilson run with the ball so often is that they don't have solid protection to stay in the pocket like T. Brady, P. Manning and J. Montanna?

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, peenie said:

I'm asking a serious question:

Is the reason L. Jackson, M. Vick, P. Mahomes and R. Wilson run with the ball so often is that they don't have solid protection to stay in the pocket like T. Brady, P. Manning and J. Montanna?

No. It’s because they can. They are fast.  The other guys couldn’t. They were slow.  See, they are fast. Fast is good when running. Slow is bad. Does that help you out? 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

No. It’s because they can. They are fast.  The other guys couldn’t. They were slow.  See, they are fast. Fast is good when running. Slow is bad. Does that help you out? 

But, to the point of the earlier poster, if their job is to throw the ball, they shouldn't be running so much. That's why the team has running backs. It seems like they run because they are being chased, not that they see an opportunity. Where Tom et al. has time to sit in the pocket to think, see, then throw. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, peenie said:

But, to the point of the earlier poster, if their job is to throw the ball, then running shouldn't be part of their job. That's why the team has running backs. 

Most of the running is done when the play breaks down. Lamar has more designed runs because he’s an incredible runner. It’s a great weapon, defenses have a hard time defending it. Josh Allen as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

Most of the running is done when the play breaks down. Lamar has more designed runs because he’s an incredible runner. It’s a great weapon, defenses have a hard time defending it. Josh Allen as well. 

Okay, thanks! :thumbsup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, peenie said:

But, to the point of the earlier poster, if their job is to throw the ball, then they shouldn't be running so much. That's why the team has running backs. It seems like they run because they are being chased, not that they see an opportunity. Where Tom et al. has time to sit in the pocket to think, see and throw. 

The Chiefs have a strong O-Line, especially the interior.   Tackles are a bit suspect.  But having an elite passer allows you to rely on the qb's passing abilities and use the run as a last resort.  Vick and IMO Lamar are not as good of passers and therefore are/ were quicker to abandon the play and resort to the run.   At least, that's my opinion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, cmh6476 said:

The Chiefs have a strong O-Line, especially the interior.   Tackles are a bit suspect.  Vick and IMO Lamar are not as good of passers and therefore are/ were quicker to abandon the play and resort to the run.   At least, that's my opinion. 

:thumbsup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, peenie said:

But, to the point of the earlier poster, if their job is to throw the ball, then running shouldn't be part of their job. That's why the team has running backs. 

Their job is to score points and lead the offense.  Whether they do it by passing or running doesn't really matter.  However, the problem with QB's like Jackson/Vick is:

1)  Running the ball leads to more injuries.  Besides the fact that rules afford QB's special protections from getting hit/hurt, once they run they're treated like a RB.  RB's take more abuse than any other position in football.  Their careers are shorter as a result.   So, you're shortening the career of your QB if they run as much as Lamar Jackson does and you risk them getting injured on every play they choose to run.  For the most important and highest paid position on your offense this is not smart.  Teams like BAL that choose to have a QB such as Lamar know this and expect to need a new QB much sooner. 

2)  Most running QB's are less accurate passers than non running QB's.  The fact is Mahomes is a decent running QB but he doesn't NEED to run that much because of his passing ability.  Also, learning how to navigate the pocket to extend plays to give yourself extra time to pass is important.  Running QB's tend to run at the first sign of trouble in the pocket so they don't tend to develop this skill to a high level.

3)  You can have multiple RB's on your roster so if one gets injured you just go to the next one.   Rarely does a team have a backup QB that can be as effective as the starter.   Teams just hope a backup QB can play a game or two and not tank their playoff prospects.  Most teams believe that if their starter goes down for the season their chances of winning the SB go down the toilet.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, peenie said:

I'm asking a serious question:

Is the reason L. Jackson, M. Vick, P. Mahomes and R. Wilson run with the ball so often is that they don't have solid protection to stay in the pocket like T. Brady, P. Manning and J. Montanna?

I think they run when necessary because they're capable, while T Brady, P Manning, and Joe Montana were slow as hell, so they either threw the ball or got sacked.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

No, it doesn't.  Football would still be as popular as ever even without fantasy.  You're out of your mind.

 

3 hours ago, weepaws said:

No it wouldn’t be.  

Football would still be popular, but not as much.  Vegas and fantasy, and now the sports betting apps are the reason they're as popular as they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Gepetto said:

I think they run when necessary because they're capable, while T Brady, P Manning, and Joe Montana were slow as hell, so they either threw the ball or got sacked.

😜

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Strike said:

Their job is to score points and lead the offense.  Whether they do it by passing or running doesn't really matter.  However, the problem with QB's like Jackson/Vick is:

1)  Running the ball leads to more injuries.  Besides the fact that rules afford QB's special protections from getting hit/hurt, once they run they're treated like a RB.  RB's take more abuse than any other position in football.  Their careers are shorter as a result.   So, you're shortening the career of your QB if they run as much as Lamar Jackson does and you risk them getting injured on every play they choose to run.  For the most important and highest paid position on your offense this is not smart.  Teams like BAL that choose to have a QB such as Lamar know this and expect to need a new QB much sooner. 

2)  Most running QB's are less accurate passers than non running QB's.  The fact is Mahomes is a decent running QB but he doesn't NEED to run that much because of his passing ability.  Also, learning how to navigate the pocket to extend plays to give yourself extra time to pass is important.  Running QB's tend to run at the first sign of trouble in the pocket so they don't tend to develop this skill to a high level.

3)  You can have multiple RB's on your roster so if one gets injured you just go to the next one.   Rarely does a team have a backup QB that can be as effective as the starter.   Teams just hope a backup QB can play a game or two and not tank their playoff prospects.  Most teams believe that if their starter goes down for the season their chances of winning the SB go down the toilet.

:first:

Yes, I remember drafting M. Vick back in the day for my FF team and inevitably, he would get injured. I also remember RG3 being really dynamic early in his career but it seems his injuries ended it. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Strike said:

Their job is to score points and lead the offense.  Whether they do it by passing or running doesn't really matter.  However, the problem with QB's like Jackson/Vick is:

1)  Running the ball leads to more injuries.  Besides the fact that rules afford QB's special protections from getting hit/hurt, once they run they're treated like a RB.  RB's take more abuse than any other position in football.  Their careers are shorter as a result.   So, you're shortening the career of your QB if they run as much as Lamar Jackson does and you risk them getting injured on every play they choose to run.  For the most important and highest paid position on your offense this is not smart.  Teams like BAL that choose to have a QB such as Lamar know this and expect to need a new QB much sooner. 

2)  Most running QB's are less accurate passers than non running QB's.  The fact is Mahomes is a decent running QB but he doesn't NEED to run that much because of his passing ability.  Also, learning how to navigate the pocket to extend plays to give yourself extra time to pass is important.  Running QB's tend to run at the first sign of trouble in the pocket so they don't tend to develop this skill to a high level.

3)  You can have multiple RB's on your roster so if one gets injured you just go to the next one.   Rarely does a team have a backup QB that can be as effective as the starter.   Teams just hope a backup QB can play a game or two and not tank their playoff prospects.  Most teams believe that if their starter goes down for the season their chances of winning the SB go down the toilet.

You and @listen2me 23 really nailed it in here.  We should probably just close this thread and both of you take home the Thread Co-MVP awards. 🏆

And you two didn't have to run at all!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Jackson has played in less super bowls than Rex Grossman. 

Rex Grossman played in the same amount of Super Bowls as Dan Marino

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, iam90sbaby said:

Rex Grossman played in the same amount of Super Bowls as Dan Marino

It's amazing. Don't even get me started on the Trent Dilfer comparisons. He kicked ass on about almost every QB in the history of the league. He was able to finish. Close out the season with a bang. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ted Williams played in one WS. Ernie Banks played in none. Bringing Marino into these discussions is silly. He’s one of the greatest QB’s ever. End of story.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

 

Football would still be popular, but not as much.  Vegas and fantasy, and now the sports betting apps are the reason they're as popular as they are.

Correct.  Not as much.  FF alone is very important to football then any other sport imo.  Without ff football would drop in popularity imo. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

He sure as hell can run. 24 passing TDs in a 17 game scheduled is good now I guess? 

C'mon. Learn to look at the entire picture. There are only so many minutes and offensive drives available in a football game, and in a season.

When evaluating QBs, you have to include everything.

L Jackson had 5 rushing touchdowns and 821 yards rushing. 

That makes 29 total TDs, to just 7 interceptions and 4,499 total yards. 

He's started 5 years and won MVP of the entire league 2 of those years.

Give up your criticism, you're flat out wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Gepetto said:

Give up your criticism, you're flat out wrong.

CMC was the MVP and it's not close. 

Lamar is a video game, not a QB. He sucks when asked to win. But you probably didn't watch that amateurish performance against CMC and the Niners. 

VIDEO GAME, NOT AN NFL QB. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you can’t throw outside the numbers in crunch time you're going to be exposed. You have to be able to do that or the clock keeps running. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Maximum Overkill said:

CMC was the MVP and it's not close. 

Lamar is a video game, not a QB. He sucks when asked to win. But you probably didn't watch that amateurish performance against CMC and the Niners. 

VIDEO GAME, NOT AN NFL QB. 

Pretty sure people that know more about the NFL than you vote on the actual AP MVP. Lamar Jackson did win this year, for the second time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Gepetto said:

Pretty sure people that know more about the NFL than you vote on the actual AP MVP. Lamar Jackson did win this year, for the second time.

Sure, and Embid was the MVP of the NBA 😂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Gepetto said:

C'mon. Learn to look at the entire picture. There are only so many minutes and offensive drives available in a football game, and in a season.

When evaluating QBs, you have to include everything.

L Jackson had 5 rushing touchdowns and 821 yards rushing. 

That makes 29 total TDs, to just 7 interceptions and 4,499 total yards. 

He's started 5 years and won MVP of the entire league 2 of those years.

Give up your criticism, you're flat out wrong.

Uhm...you don't get to count rushing TDs in with the passing stats to make it look better than what it really was.  He had 24 passing TDs - very average.

He would have many more passing TDs if he wasn't always running at the first sign of a defender crossing the line of scrimmage.  And he has to be able to get past the first read if it's not there and look for the 2nd and 3rd ones.  That is what an actual passing QB can do  Learn to navigate the pocket.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Gepetto said:

C'mon. Learn to look at the entire picture. There are only so many minutes and offensive drives available in a football game, and in a season.

When evaluating QBs, you have to include everything.

L Jackson had 5 rushing touchdowns and 821 yards rushing. 

That makes 29 total TDs, to just 7 interceptions and 4,499 total yards. 

He's started 5 years and won MVP of the entire league 2 of those years.

Give up your criticism, you're flat out wrong.

What's his playoff record?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Strike said:

I'm not going to go look in to the stats you've posted to see if they're cherry picked or out of context.  Here are their career and head to head stats:

https://stathead.com/football/vs/lamar-jackson-vs-patrick-mahomes

Both the above link and my own eyes tell me Mahomes is a lot better QB than Jackson.  So do their accomplishments.  Jackson is not someone I want to have to rely on to PASS the ball in a CRUCIAL situation, which is what is required at some point in the journey to winning a SB. 

That’s fine.  But don’t slight the running QB just because he has a different skillset.  The fact that Jackson isn’t in the SB yet doesn’t detract from the rest of his career.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, MLCKAA said:

That’s fine.  But don’t slight the running QB just because he has a different skillset.  The fact that Jackson isn’t in the SB yet doesn’t detract from the rest of his career.  

I don't consider "running" to be a skillset a QB should have. That's the domain of the Running Back (note the word "Running" in the title).

That's not a skillset a QB should have.  If the QB IS running all the time then that's not a skillset - it's a survival technique to cover up the fact that he can't pass very well, work the pocket or read defenses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, MLCKAA said:

That’s fine.  But don’t slight the running QB just because he has a different skillset.  The fact that Jackson isn’t in the SB yet doesn’t detract from the rest of his career.  

It is my opinion that QBs like Jackson are fools gold.  They will win a lot of games, mostly in the regular season when they can play a lot of crap teams but will lose to the upper echelon teams when it matters because those teams will expose the QBs weaknesses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

I don't consider "running" to be a skillset a QB should have. That's the domain of the Running Back (note the word "Running" in the title).

That's not a skillset a QB should have.  If the QB IS running all the time then that's not a skillset - it's a survival technique to cover up the fact that he can't pass very well, work the pocket or read defenses.

You would be wrong then. Quarterbacks have been running since the beginning of the creation of the game of football. High School QBs run, College QBs run and both use to run a lot more prior to the 1990's. In fact running by the QB, and other backs was all that use to occur. The forward pass came much later. I am 119 years old.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

14 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

I don't consider "running" to be a skillset a QB should have. That's the domain of the Running Back (note the word "Running" in the title).

That's not a skillset a QB should have.  If the QB IS running all the time then that's not a skillset - it's a survival technique to cover up the fact that he can't pass very well, work the pocket or read defenses.

Lamar Jackson isn't running all the time though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

I don't consider "running" to be a skillset a QB should have. That's the domain of the Running Back (note the word "Running" in the title).

That's not a skillset a QB should have.  If the QB IS running all the time then that's not a skillset - it's a survival technique to cover up the fact that he can't pass very well, work the pocket or read defenses.

Ah, we’ll just have to disagree.  As stated, at the inception of football and for many, many years the QB was a frequent runner; anything that contributes to winning is valuable; running is a skillset.  But, if you simply have a personal preference for a pure passer, that’s cool.  I think the pure passer has a place and so does the running QB.  Both are part of the past and present of the game.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Gepetto said:

 

Lamar Jackson isn't running all the time though.

He's a constant threat to run.  His ability to run is something the defense has to always account for.  If he didn't have that ability, or wasn't as good at it, we wouldn't even know who he was. He'd probably be a backup somewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, everyone ragging on Jackson and favoring a pure passer, I'll give you he's not Joe Flacco. He did replace him as the starter in Baltimore though, :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Gepetto said:

OK, everyone ragging on Jackson and favoring a pure passer, I'll give you he's not Joe Flacco. He did replace him as the starter in Baltimore though, :D 

No one is "favoring"  a pure passer.  There have been mobile QB's in the league forever.  Steve Young and John Elway were elusive, mobile QB's long before this generation.  The difference was they were excellent passers as well.  We focus on their passing because for the most part that is what helped them win SB's.  When we get a QB with the running ability of a Lamar Jackson and the passing ability of a John Elway that'll be something.  But it hasn't happened yet.  And, of course, as I noted above the more a QB runs the shorter their career will be and injury will be more common.  That will always be the rub about QB's that choose to run a lot regardless of how capable they are at doing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Strike said:

No one is "favoring"  a pure passer.  There have been mobile QB's in the league forever.  Steve Young and John Elway were elusive, mobile QB's long before this generation.  The difference was they were excellent passers as well.  We focus on their passing because for the most part that is what helped them win SB's.  When we get a QB with the running ability of a Lamar Jackson and the passing ability of a John Elway that'll be something.  But it hasn't happened yet.  And, of course, as I noted above the more a QB runs the shorter their career will be and injury will be more common.  That will always be the rub about QB's that choose to run a lot regardless of how capable they are at doing it.

Lamar Jackson's passer rating this year was 102.7  Career 98.0  https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/3916387/lamar-jackson 

Do you not believe this statistic is meaningful to understand his passing productivity?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t get the Lamar or Purdy hate.  :dunno:
They are both really good QB’s in different ways.  

MVP is always in the eye of the beholder.  “Most Valuable to their team”?  The actual “Best” player that year (stats) combined with team success? The recipe varies it seems year to year person to person.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×