Timmy’s thread for general discussion

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

26 minutes ago, Strike said:

Who gives a sh*t.  Any parent that needs the government to tell them how to parent is a poor parent.  Do your own research parents, something @The Real timschochet knows nothing about.

You and I have a very different perception of public health. I think it should be about protecting people and giving them advice on how to keep their loved ones safe. You seem to think they should figure it all out themselves. I don’t subscribe to that. 

[Fnord 2,198]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

Who gives a sh*t.  Any parent that needs the government to tell them how to parent is a poor parent.  Do your own research parents, something @The Real timschochet knows nothing about.

Sorry man, this is garbage. My wife does a TON of research on all sorts of crap related to our kids and their health. She gets stuff wrong sometimes and can't keep abreast of all of it. My kids shouldn't have to be exposed to other kids that are health risks simply because of their parents stupidity or beliefs. Public health trumps personal freedom in many cases, and I'm pretty libertarian when it comes to personal freedom. 

Also, correct me if needed, but do you support the same type of position when it becomes a parental decision regarding gender affirming care?

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

19 minutes ago, Fnord said:

 

Also, correct me if needed, but do you support the same type of position when it becomes a parental decision regarding gender affirming care?

Great point let’s see how he answers

[jerryskids 6,737]

3 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Unacceptable, Terrible. 
 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/26/opinions/israel-gaza-rafah-children-aid-unicef-russell/index.html

I supported Israel at the beginning of this conflict. I can’t do it anymore. I can’t justify this suffering of children. 

Beyond the words I used above it’s also stupid. Israel isn’t making themselves safer. They’re just creating more hatred that will last for generations to come. And since we’re their biggest ally at least some of that hatred will be coming our way as well. 

How is the release of those hostages coming?

 

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

7 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

How is the release of those hostages coming?

 

It’s not. What do you propose? 

[jerryskids 6,737]

Just now, The Real timschochet said:

It’s not. What do you propose? 

I propose that Hamas release the hostages and come to the table, if they want the innocent children under their leadership to stop suffering.  

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

Oklahoma State Senator, asked about death of non-binary student, refers to LGBTQ+ people as “filth”: 

https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/local-regional/2024-02-23/state-senator-calls-lgbtq-people-filth-when-asked-about-death-of-nonbinary-student

He claimed that Oklahoma is a Christian state, a moral state. Hard to see anything moral about calling people filth. But then, the folks who believe this sort of thing are also supporting a guy for President who refers to his opponents as vermin. 

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

1 minute ago, jerryskids said:

I propose that Hamas release the hostages and come to the table, if they want the innocent children under their leadership to stop suffering.  

I don’t want innocent children to suffer. Hamas is evil and needs to be destroyed but I am not going to tell them, or anyone else “do this or innocent children will die.” At that point I’m out, sorry. 

[jerryskids 6,737]

Just now, The Real timschochet said:

I don’t want innocent children to suffer. Hamas is evil and needs to be destroyed but I am not going to tell them, or anyone else “do this or innocent children will die.” At that point I’m out, sorry. 

Nobody wants innocent children to suffer, well apparently except Hamas.

How about the adults then?  They voted Hamas in, they should vote Hamas out and elect new leadership that will act like it is not the twelfth century.  Or do they still want their elected leadership in charge?

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

The economy continues to get better, and now most economists predict good times ahead. What then will Republicans run on? Judging from this website, there appears to be 4issues that have come to dominate conservative thinking in no particular order: 

1. Fear and loathing of undocumented immigrants.

2. Fear and loathing of transsexual people. 

3. Isolationism and an end our post World War II obligations. 

4. Retribution for the enemies of Donald Trump. 
 

I don’t believe the majority of Americans are going to go along with the conservative obsession and views on these 4 issues. At least I hope not. Guess we will see. 

[Maximum Overkill 1,917]

3 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Unacceptable, Terrible. 
 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/26/opinions/israel-gaza-rafah-children-aid-unicef-russell/index.html

I supported Israel at the beginning of this conflict. I can’t do it anymore. I can’t justify this suffering of children. 

Beyond the words I used above it’s also stupid. Israel isn’t making themselves safer. They’re just creating more hatred that will last for generations to come. And since we’re their biggest ally at least some of that hatred will be coming our way as well. 

Tim, I agree with you but unfortunately this is the sickening side of war, I've seen it, I've experienced it and it never got easier. I don't blame Israel, unfortunately innocent casualties will occur, that's just a part of it. Isreal has to destroy Hamas and it's ideology 100% or they'll be playing these games forever. If Hamas is not destroyed they'll be doing this every 10 years which only makes it worse. 

I feel your sentiment, I really do, it's horrible to see kids and families being annihilated. 

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

4 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Nobody wants innocent children to suffer, well apparently except Hamas.

How about the adults then?  They voted Hamas in, they should vote Hamas out and elect new leadership that will act like it is not the twelfth century.  Or do they still want their elected leadership in charge?

No idea, polling is very difficult there and probably inaccurate. 
My educated guess however is that even more of them support Hamas now than they did previously. Human nature is generally defiant: suffering causes people to become more extreme not less. Extremism thrives in misery; it doesn’t do so well in prosperity. The only way to truly get rid of Hamas, IMO, is to create a situation for Palestinians where they can live in safety and some kind of opportunity for advancement and prosperity. Israel is accomplishing the exact opposite. In the end, even if they manage to kill all of Hamas’ current leaders, they will be replaced by some new group even more radical and extreme. 

[jerryskids 6,737]

10 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

No idea, polling is very difficult there and probably inaccurate. 
My educated guess however is that even more of them support Hamas now than they did previously. Human nature is generally defiant: suffering causes people to become more extreme not less. Extremism thrives in misery; it doesn’t do so well in prosperity. The only way to truly get rid of Hamas, IMO, is to create a situation for Palestinians where they can live in safety and some kind of opportunity for advancement and prosperity. Israel is accomplishing the exact opposite. In the end, even if they manage to kill all of Hamas’ current leaders, they will be replaced by some new group even more radical and extreme. 

Well, that's quite a quandary.  How would you create such an opportunity for advancement and prosperity?  Because for the 18 years before 10/7, the Palestinian people supported Hamas, a terrorist group whose stated goal is the death of all Israelis, instead of pursuing such goals.  Then Hamas raped and burned a bunch of Israeli women and children, and because Israel had the audacity to not only fight back but keep pushing, Hamas and the adults there are happier watching their children suffer than to do something about it.

So again, how do we do that?

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

19 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Well, that's quite a quandary.  How would you create such an opportunity for advancement and prosperity?  Because for the 18 years before 10/7, the Palestinian people supported Hamas, a terrorist group whose stated goal is the death of all Israelis, instead of pursuing such goals.  Then Hamas raped and burned a bunch of Israeli women and children, and because Israel had the audacity to not only fight back but keep pushing, Hamas and the adults there are happier watching their children suffer than to do something about it.

So again, how do we do that?

Create a State of Palestine is the first step. Remove all remaining Jewish settlements from Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem. Declare the old city of Jerusalem an international city and move our embassy back to Tel Aviv. Give billions of dollars of aid to the new state of Palestine. 
 

How’s that? 
 

ETA this was all proposed years ago on The West Wing. 

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

45 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

Tim, I agree with you but unfortunately this is the sickening side of war, I've seen it, I've experienced it and it never got easier. I don't blame Israel, unfortunately innocent casualties will occur, that's just a part of it. Isreal has to destroy Hamas and it's ideology 100% or they'll be playing these games forever. If Hamas is not destroyed they'll be doing this every 10 years which only makes it worse. 

I feel your sentiment, I really do, it's horrible to see kids and families being annihilated. 

I do not believe these actions will destroy Hamas’ ideology. I am convinced it will only make them stronger. 

[Maximum Overkill 1,917]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I do not believe these actions will destroy Hamas’ ideology. I am convinced it will only make them stronger. 

It's certainly possible. It happened in Afghanistan 

[seafoam1 2,942]

6 hours ago, supermike80 said:

Super lame dude.   

Keep trying dumbass...

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

26 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

It's certainly possible. It happened in Afghanistan 

And in Vietnam. And in Algeria. Actually the list is kind of endless. We (the west, and that includes Israel) keep making the same mistake over and over. In our attempts to crush extremism we end up strengthening it. 

[jonnyutah 274]

3 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

I think that if you had told me that dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki would not win the war, would only end up making Japan more powerful, and would achieve nothing except making the USA less safe I would have told you that it’s both an immoral decision and a dumb one. We dropped thousands of bombs on Hanoi and killed plenty of civilians. For what? To what good end? Sometimes we can learn from history. War doesn’t justify bad acts; we decided that at Nuremberg, remember? 

Hiroshima and nagasaki only worked because they couldnt change their mind afterwards. Those bombs destroyed everything. 

You cant thread the needle on this crap. You cant nicely attack people. 

You go in and you wipeout what you are trying to wipe out.  

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

11 minutes ago, jonnyutah said:

Hiroshima and nagasaki only worked because they couldnt change their mind afterwards. Those bombs destroyed everything. 

You cant thread the needle on this crap. You cant nicely attack people. 

You go in and you wipeout what you are trying to wipe out.  

I don’t want to keep repeating myself but what can I say? This logic to me is like banging your head against a steel wall because eventually you might make a dent in it. Of course you might be brain dead long before you make that dent…

[jerryskids 6,737]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Create a State of Palestine is the first step. Remove all remaining Jewish settlements from Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem. Declare the old city of Jerusalem an international city and move our embassy back to Tel Aviv. Give billions of dollars of aid to the new state of Palestine. 
 

How’s that? 
 

ETA this was all proposed years ago on The West Wing. 

The problem is that two-state solutions have been proposed in the past, generally rejected by the Palestinians.

The current regime, Hamas, will not accept the existence of Israel as part of the solution.

Quote

In 2017's revised Hamas charter, they claimed to accept the idea of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, but without recognising the statehood of Israel, referring to it as "the Zionist entity", which would not constitute a two-state solution

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

So we are once again back to the fundamental fact that the Palestinian people, seeing their land destroyed and their children suffer, need to oust Hamas for there to be any path to a solution.

Your proposal is typical for a liberal:  in the face of reprehensible behavior by an "oppressed" people, you believe the problem is that we just haven't been nice enough to them.  If we can just be a little bit nicer this time around, everything will be wonderful, despite the 75 years of history of their behavior.  That approach has worked roughly 0.00% of the time throughout history.  But maybe this time it will be different.   

 

[Fnord 2,198]

2 hours ago, Maximum Overkill said:

Tim, I agree with you but unfortunately this is the sickening side of war, I've seen it, I've experienced it and it never got easier. I don't blame Israel, unfortunately innocent casualties will occur, that's just a part of it. Isreal has to destroy Hamas and it's ideology 100% or they'll be playing these games forever. If Hamas is not destroyed they'll be doing this every 10 years which only makes it worse. 

I feel your sentiment, I really do, it's horrible to see kids and families being annihilated. 

It's not possible to eradicate ideology, no matter how many people you kill.

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

I brought up Hiroshima and Nagasaki because to me they represent the ultimate argument in moral justification. It’s a terrible thing to kill all those civilians but in the end it was justified, I believe, because we won the war. Not dropping those bombs would have cost us much more lives both American and Japanese. Dropping those bombs was the correct move, no matter how many innocents perished. 
 

So that being said I have no problem with the morality here expressed by Netanyahu and in this forum @jerryskids, @Maximum Overkill, and @jonnyutah. I agree with the morality: if Israel has to do this in order to destroy Hamas then I can live with that. My problem is with the tactics because I don’t think it’s going to destroy Hamas. I don’t think it’s going to achieve any good purpose and I’m convinced it’s making things worse not better. And if that’s the case then the whole thing becomes immoral. Committing such acts such as killing innocent people, and especially children, can be justified but only if you can point to an end result which is better for all concerned. If you can’t do that it becomes an act of immorality. 

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

The problem is that two-state solutions have been proposed in the past, generally rejected by the Palestinians.

The current regime, Hamas, will not accept the existence of Israel as part of the solution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

So we are once again back to the fundamental fact that the Palestinian people, seeing their land destroyed and their children suffer, need to oust Hamas for there to be any path to a solution.

Your proposal is typical for a liberal:  in the face of reprehensible behavior by an "oppressed" people, you believe the problem is that we just haven't been nice enough to them.  If we can just be a little bit nicer this time around, everything will be wonderful, despite the 75 years of history of their behavior.  That approach has worked roughly 0.00% of the time throughout history.  But maybe this time it will be different.   

 

It doesn’t matter whether they accept it or not. And yes I do have a couple of examples in modern history to offer you: 

1. The country of Ireland was created in 1921 and initially ruled by a government which refused to accept its creation and swore death on its creators. 

2. The countries of Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh were created in 1948 and initially ruled by governments which refused to accept their creation and swore death on their creators. 

There are many more examples I can offer but these are kind of instructive because some of the circumstances are similar. 
 

Also you misunderstand me. I don’t want to be nice to these people. I want to solve a problem as efficiently as possible. My model in this situation is not some liberal, it’s the most conservative of all American generals, Douglass MacArthur. He was essentially the dictator of Japan after World War II. How did he turn a bellicose, radical nation, destitute, starving and extremist,  into the peaceful and prosperous ally we have today? It’s worth reading about. 

[jerryskids 6,737]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

It doesn’t matter whether they accept it or not. And yes I do have a couple of examples in modern history to offer you: 

1. The country of Ireland was created in 1921 and initially ruled by a government which refused to accept its creation and swore death on its creators. 

2. The countries of Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh were created in 1948 and initially ruled by governments which refused to accept their creation and swore death on their creators. 

There are many more examples I can offer but these are kind of instructive because some of the circumstances are similar. 
 

Also you misunderstand me. I don’t want to be nice to these people. I want to solve a problem as efficiently as possible. My model in this situation is not some liberal, it’s the most conservative of all American generals, Douglass MacArthur. He was essentially the dictator of Japan after World War II. How did he turn a bellicose, radical nation, destitute, starving and extremist,  into the peaceful and prosperous ally we have today? It’s worth reading about. 

Of course it matters if they accept it.  The Palestinian people have always supported Hamas and their goal to destroy Israel.  Yes it is more now, but so what?  See the previous sentence.  How does this play out in your mind?  We give them the things you suggest and... they oust Hamas?  If that is your thought, then that is exactly the liberal mindset I described.

I've been waiting for this thought to play out to propose the following, but since you brought up Hiroshima and Nagasaki:  pick a time for all innocents in Gaza to get to designated safe areas.  Three, 6, 12 months, whatever it is.  At that point, if the hostages have not been returned (or accounted for*), we (the West) turn the areas with tunnels into molten glass.

* we would presume at this point that the hostages are dead.  Frankly it's reasonable to presume that now, but let's not act rashly.  If the hostages have been killed, at least we know, and can determine how to act.  Presumably, give Hamas the chance to surrender before destroying the area.

Oh, and the Japanese were complicit because they understood and respected power.  We showed them that.  The Muslim world doesn't respect ours.  My solution provides that same display to get the Palestinian people in line.

Let me state this another way to avoid confusion:  the only way the Palestinian people will respect us is if we show more power than Hamas.  Your "just one more nice thing will do the trick" proposal flies in the face of all modern history with this region.

[listen2me 23 1,858]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Create a State of Palestine is the first step. Remove all remaining Jewish settlements from Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem. Declare the old city of Jerusalem an international city and move our embassy back to Tel Aviv. Give billions of dollars of aid to the new state of Palestine. 
 

How’s that? 
 

ETA this was all proposed years ago on The West Wing. 

I appreciate you sharing your plan.

But lets give a quick recap.

1.  Create 2 states.  Something the ones you are compromising with, have stated, is not an agreement they would entertain.   

2.  Give billions of dollars to the terrorists.

 

[jonnyutah 274]

Give palestinians a state somewhere far away in africa. Banish them. That is how you get rid of terrorists sneaking into your village and killing you. 

Need proof it works? 

See United States history

[Maximum Overkill 1,917]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Create a State of Palestine is the first step. Remove all remaining Jewish settlements from Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem. Declare the old city of Jerusalem an international city and move our embassy back to Tel Aviv. Give billions of dollars of aid to the new state of Palestine. 

That would be the solution in a perfect World. Unfortunately these people are barbaric and bred to hate, violence is all they know. Much like the Animals in our Liberal Cities. Sorry to be soo frank but it's true. 

[shadrap 227]

Palestine does not want a two state solution.  They never have.  They want Israel destroyed.  now if everyone with half a brain can come to that truism then things can proceed.  even the surrounding countries want no part of Palestinians.  that should tell you most of what you need to know.  it really is that simple, but no we have guys crying here about their feelings about the kids an all.  Palestine could care less.  Their actions of rape & beheadings is all the information you need.  this nice feely stuff from Timmy is the same crap he tries to convey with no grasp of reality of the situation.   10/7 shows what the Palestinians want.  believe them. 

sometimes reality is hard to accept.

[seafoam1 2,942]

10 minutes ago, shadrap said:

Palestine does not want a two state solution.  They never have.  They want Israel destroyed.  now if everyone with half a brain can come to that truism then things can proceed.  even the surrounding countries want no part of Palestinians.  that should tell you most of what you need to know.  it really is that simple, but no we have guys crying here about their feelings about the kids an all.  Palestine could care less.  Their actions of rape & beheadings is all the information you need.  this nice feely stuff from Timmy is the same crap he tries to convey with no grasp of reality of the situation.   10/7 shows what the Palestinians want.  believe them. 

sometimes reality is hard to accept.

Yep. It's all about genocide. 

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

Well as on most issues around here, I disagree with most of you. That’s all right. I think you guys are wrong but generally well meaning. 

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

Good morning. I now want to discuss the political consequences of the Israel/ Gaza conflict. Though I would never have predicted it, this issue has very suddenly come to represent what is perhaps the biggest threat to Biden’s chances of re-election. Today is the Michigan primary, and a large number of Arab Americans who normally vote Democrat are planning a protest vote. They are joined by many young people. To say that they are pissed off by Biden is an understatement. There is also talk of a huge protest at the convention in Chicago this summer- shades of 1968. 
 

The Biden folks tell us not to worry; these folks will all come back in November. Or the situation over there will have resolved itself. I’m not sure of either. But here is what I am sure of: Michigan is going to be a close race either way. And if Biden loses Michigan, the odds are good he will lose the election. Biden needs to win Michigan. 

[jonmx 2,429]

On 2/24/2024 at 11:39 PM, The Real timschochet said:

Actually I don’t anymore. The FBI investigated, determined that Brown wasn’t wrongly killed, and I accept their narrative. 

And this is why debating leftist is useless.  Leftists allow these corrupt instituiona of authority do all their thinking.   

We knew all the facts and evidence the FBI relied on, and can think for ourselves and make a judgement.  Every federal agency, all the media, and even universities are in bed with the elite establishment and only says what they allow them to.   It does not make one iota of difference to me what some pinhead says, no matter what three letter organization is behind the name. 

[Baker Boy 1,694]

4 minutes ago, jonmx said:

And this is why debating leftist is useless.  Leftists allow these corrupt instituiona of authority do all their thinking.   

We knew all the facts and evidence the FBI relied on, and can think for ourselves and make a judgement.  Every federal agency, all the media, and even universities are in bed with the elite establishment and only says what they allow them to.   It does not make one iota of difference to me what some pinhead says, no matter what three letter organization is behind the name. 

You forgot to include big tech and entertainment.

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

43 minutes ago, jonmx said:

And this is why debating leftist is useless.  Leftists allow these corrupt instituiona of authority do all their thinking.   

We knew all the facts and evidence the FBI relied on, and can think for ourselves and make a judgement.  Every federal agency, all the media, and even universities are in bed with the elite establishment and only says what they allow them to.   It does not make one iota of difference to me what some pinhead says, no matter what three letter organization is behind the name. 

Good to see you back Jon. I missed your over the top ravings. Well sort of. But it’s good to hear from you. 

@Strike and others have pointed out for years that I was wrong about Michael Brown because the FBI and federal authorities found no crime or bad act had been committed by the police. Yet now you come around and say we can’t ever trust what the FBI says. You sound like a radical leftist activist, BTW. The Weather Underground never trusted the FBI either. 

So which is it? Should I only trust the FBI if they say something that’s bad for liberals? Otherwise they’re corrupt? 

[Strike 5,447]

34 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Good to see you back Jon. I missed your over the top ravings. Well sort of. But it’s good to hear from you. 

@Strike and others have pointed out for years that I was wrong about Michael Brown because the FBI and federal authorities found no crime or bad act had been committed by the police. Yet now you come around and say we can’t ever trust what the FBI says. You sound like a radical leftist activist, BTW. The Weather Underground never trusted the FBI either. 

So which is it? Should I only trust the FBI if they say something that’s bad for liberals? Otherwise they’re corrupt? 

You should learn to evaluate information, regardless of the source, and form your own conclusions.  It's called critical thinking. 

[jonmx 2,429]

14 minutes ago, Strike said:

You should learn to evaluate information, regardless of the source, and form your own conclusions.  It's called critical thinking. 

We have a mostly braindead society.  The irony is they think the highly diverse free-thinking independant media is a right-wing conspiracy echo-chamber.   

Instead they blindly trust the corporate establishment media who are all on the puppet strings of the ultra-wealthy elites and who all parrot the exact same message.  If you are in the corporate establishment media, you will be fired on the spot for daring to speak out against aid to Ukraine, suggesting Jan 6th might not have been insurrection to overthrow the government, or that the COVID vaccine has lead to epidemic levels of heart disease.

Fortunately, more and more people are waking up to the BS and next election cycle is not looking good for them.  Over the next few months, the establishment will expose themselves on how evil they really are as they fight to the death to hang on to their authoritarian power.   I hope they go down peacefully, but that is not their nature. 

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

45 minutes ago, Strike said:

You should learn to evaluate information, regardless of the source, and form your own conclusions.  It's called critical thinking. 

I agree. But how does one think critically without facts? And where does one get those facts? Usually my differences with you, and many others around here, is not based on either of us failing to think critically, but on the real problem that our sources of information are different and many instances opposed to each other. I trust the mainstream media. You, at least at times, do not. How can this be reconciled? 

[HellToupee 1,722]

Enough of this BS . If you support Biden,   FYOU , you’re a POS and these crimes are on you . No schtick , you are the arsehole

 

[The Real timschochet 6,671]

1 hour ago, HellToupee said:

Enough of this BS . If you support Biden,   FYOU , you’re a POS and these crimes are on you . No schtick , you are the arsehole

 

So- do other conservatives around here agree with @HellToupee? That anyone who supports Joe Biden is a POS who is responsible for every rape and murder committed by anyone who turns out to be an undocumented immigrant?