If Favre wins the Superbowl

[redtodd 7]

Me, too. They almost beat you with their backup QB. I'd love to see them play now.

 

Title of the 2007 Eagles DVD:

 

"We Almost Beat the Patriots."

[DankNuggs 305]

Yeah...like claiming the memo was out there because all of the teams were doing it was fine though huh?

 

Why do you think he put the memo out there?

To presume it was singularly directed at the Pats and that the entire league was addressed not to 'ruffle feathers' is frankly ridiculous.

 

to presume 100% of teams were doing it is also a longshot, the reality is that the issue was most likely a pervasive problem, directed at many teams, which is why they confronted it.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Duper and Clayton weren't 'good' ?????? LOL

 

Explain the differences between Antonio Freeman and Marvin Harrison? besides longevity.

 

Marvin Harrison is 10X the athlete and WR than Freeman was.

[DankNuggs 305]

So by this logic, Vinatieri should of been the MVP.

In baseball, tie goes to the runner

 

In football, tie goes to the Quarterback

 

 

i don't think anyone would have had any problem with Vinatieri getting the MVP.

 

But remember, the NFL is a marketing machine, they stand to gain more by promoting posterboy Tom Brady than a kicker. Same reason the SEC gets more bowl bids and gets the nods over other conferences.

[Sho Nuff 720]

To presume it was singularly directed at the Pats and that the entire league was addressed not to 'ruffle feathers' is frankly ridiculous.

 

to presume 100% of teams were doing it is also a longshot, the reality is that the issue was most likely a pervasive problem, directed at many teams, which is why they confronted it.

 

I think its pretty obvious that the Pats were the focus of the letter given the hints of this behavior just last year.

I don't see it as any problem with any other teams...as none of them had issues the year before like the Pats did.

 

I don't think its all that ridiculous of a presumption that it was sent to everyone so that BB and Kraft were not whining about being singled out.

[redtodd 7]

I think its pretty obvious that the Pats were the focus of the letter given the hints of this behavior just last year.

I don't see it as any problem with any other teams...as none of them had issues the year before like the Pats did.

 

I don't think its all that ridiculous of a presumption that it was sent to everyone so that BB and Kraft were not whining about being singled out.

 

[reapers69 0]

Yeah. You kinda are.

 

No I'm not. Look at it this way. the first time you polluted this board with your senseless comments did it show your number of posts as #1324? No it was #1 So for you to suggest that if someone does something it's obviously not the first time they've done it is ludicrous. Like I said everyone has a first time. The Patriots obviously have been using sideline videotaping for a while. Mangini knew about it from his time with the Patriots. But the league punished them and it's time for you to get over it. Should it have been more severe? Yes, if your trying to crack down on things it really needed to be more severe. But it wasn't, hopefully much like the criminal that gets a slap on the wrist the Patriots will stay on the radar and warrant more scrutiny from here on out. But trust me just because I know the name of an individual who knocked over a liqour store doesn't mean I kid myself into thinking he's the only one doing it.

[DankNuggs 305]

Marvin Harrison is 10X the athlete and WR than Freeman was.

Marvin by WR standards was not fast, nor did he have height advantages...

 

He made his mark doing it the way Jerry Rice did, run perfect routes, have great hands.

 

I saw Freeman in the same kind of light during his heydey.

 

 

Arguing over athletic prowess is worthless. The best athlete does not make the best receiver.

 

This is not to knock Harrison by any means. It seems like there is a bucket of receivers that were 'nothing without the QB' and there are guys above that distinction. I don't think you can seperate the two. the relationship between QB and WR is too intregal to success.

[Dan 60]

See that's my fault. I forgot you don't understand what anyone says including yourself. You said we can debate over how much the cheating helped them. So obviously since we were talking about the 2007-2008 Patriots I assumed you were too. But with all that said keep in mind it was common practice throughout the league before this season to do the kind of videotaping they were doing. So while it may have been a fuzy kind of rules violation that wasn't enforced before this season the fact still remains that the NFL caught them and punished them for what they did this year. The burden of proof rests on the shoulders of clowns like you who want to paint your own team as pure as the driven snow and the Patriots as nothing but cheaters, while ignoring the fact that successful former coaches like Jimmy Johnson have said all season long that everyone use to do this stuff. Belicheck is guilty of cheating this season- FACT, Belicheck is guilty of being arrogant enough to ignore the League wide memo stating that this would no longer be tolerated. FACT- the only benefit they received from the videotape siezed by the league during the first half of the Jets game was a rallying point for a team that has circled the wagons in an us against the world approach.

 

So I'll leave the assumptions and conjecture to you. Being in the business of dealing only with facts and proof i'll stick to those.

 

Keep on hating Newbie wouldn't no what to do if you changed.

 

reapers - This was what I was originally responding to. Your tenor in this post suggests that the Patriots didn't do anything largely wrong - because everyone else does it, which is false - and suggests that the rules violations beforehand are fictitious. You refer to people like me, I guess, as clowns because I dare to suggest that the burden of proof does not lie with me. This isn't a court of law. It's the court of public opinion, and that matters. Your tenor suggests that what happened in the past doesn't matter.

 

If I misinterpreted that, I apologize. But that was what I responded to.

 

 

And by the way, in all sincerity . . . thank you. I appreciate those that have served our country and have gone to war for us. So thank you. And God bless you.

[cmkp0819 0]

Marvin by WR standards was not fast, nor did he have height advantages...

 

He made his mark doing it the way Jerry Rice did, run perfect routes, have great hands.

 

I saw Freeman in the same kind of light during his heydey.

Arguing over athletic prowess is worthless. The best athlete does not make the best receiver.

 

This is not to knock Harrison by any means. It seems like there is a bucket of receivers that were 'nothing without the QB' and there are guys above that distinction. I don't think you can seperate the two. the relationship between QB and WR is too intregal to success.

Harrison = Hall of Fame

Freeman = Not so much

 

I don't get the confusion.

[DankNuggs 305]

Harrison = Hall of Fame

Freeman = Not so much

 

I don't get the confusion.

That is based on longevity of career. Notice how i singled that out.

[cmkp0819 0]

That is based on longevity of career. Notice how i singled that out.

So what are you basing the comparison on again?

[DankNuggs 305]

So what are you basing the comparison on again?

Trying to get to the heart of what makes a receiver successful... Chicken/Egg debate.

 

Clearly you have the Favre backers who consider Freeman useless except for the glory of Brett Favre... I'd argue hes a very similar type receiver to Harrison. Harrison played longer, but he also had a HOF QB throwing him balls his whole career.

 

 

The success of a receiver is almost completely reliant on the dynamic of QB/WR. This isn't rocket science, but i think its interesting as how Freeman is the posterboy for 'garbage receiver who thived off of a QB'

[Sho Nuff 720]

Marvin by WR standards was not fast, nor did he have height advantages...

 

He made his mark doing it the way Jerry Rice did, run perfect routes, have great hands.

 

I saw Freeman in the same kind of light during his heydey.

 

I think some of you are seriously delusional.

Bringing up Antonio Freeman in the same sentence with Harrison and Rice is laughable.

No...Freeman was never as good at the position as those two.

Don't mistake Favre being comfortable and trusting the guy with perfect route running or being a great WR.

 

 

 

Arguing over athletic prowess is worthless. The best athlete does not make the best receiver.

I can agree with that.

 

This is not to knock Harrison by any means. It seems like there is a bucket of receivers that were 'nothing without the QB' and there are guys above that distinction. I don't think you can seperate the two. the relationship between QB and WR is too intregal to success.

 

Agreed...I think Freeman's had more to do with that relationship with Favre than either Harrison or Rice's success did with the relationship to their QBs.

[NewbieJr 541]

Duper and Clayton weren't 'good' ?????? LOL

 

Explain the differences between Antonio Freeman and Marvin Harrison? besides longevity.

Yes. Duper and Clayton were 'good'. But they were not 'great'. They were never game changers like Owens, Moss, rice, ect. Take away Marino, and they were very average receivers. Of course they had big numbers for a few years. That was because they were catching balls from one of the top five QBs ever. Neither was a big name coming out of college and neither did squat after leaving Miami. They were 'good'.

As for Harrison, I doubt we'll ever know how great he'd have been if he wasn't Manning's number one guy. With Freeman, we saw how average he was when he joined the Eagles.

[redtodd 7]

With Freeman, we saw how average he was when he joined the Eagles.

 

Well of course, he had McNabb throwing to him.

[NewbieJr 541]

Well of course, he had McNabb throwing to him.

Yeah, TO sucked that one year he had McNabb throwing to him, too.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Yeah, TO sucked that one year he had McNabb throwing up on him, too.

 

Good point

[DankNuggs 305]

I think some of you are seriously delusional.

Bringing up Antonio Freeman in the same sentence with Harrison and Rice is laughable.

No...Freeman was never as good at the position as those two.

Don't mistake Favre being comfortable and trusting the guy with perfect route running or being a great WR.

I can agree with that.

Agreed...I think Freeman's had more to do with that relationship with Favre than either Harrison or Rice's success did with the relationship to their QBs.

Im not comparing the career of Freeman to Harrison/Rice. I think you are missing my point here, although you address it at the end. The only baseline comparison i made was that physically, they weren't the tallest, neither were any of the trio fast by WR standards.

 

Maybe i am making a mistake of the trust dynamic and presuming its route running and hands.

 

Maybe the catches made by freeman were more responsible from Favre than catches by Harrison/Rice from their QBs.

 

Just trying to break it down to the basics... WR needs to get open, QB has to get them the ball. Now either the WR is disproportionately better at getting open, or the QB is disproportionately better at getting them the ball where it needs to be.

 

breaking it down is pretty difficult, which is why i was challenging the 'Freeman' category of receiever. (which i would assume is the receiver not particularly good at getting open, but the QB gets the ball where it needs to be.)

[DankNuggs 305]

Yes. Duper and Clayton were 'good'. But they were not 'great'. They were never game changers like Owens, Moss, rice, ect. Take away Marino, and they were very average receivers. Of course they had big numbers for a few years. That was because they were catching balls from one of the top five QBs ever. Neither was a big name coming out of college and neither did squat after leaving Miami. They were 'good'.

As for Harrison, I doubt we'll ever know how great he'd have been if he wasn't Manning's number one guy. With Freeman, we saw how average he was when he joined the Eagles.

Correct me if im wrong, but wasn't freeman older when he got to the Eagles?

 

And you are making the presumption that you can somehow seperate receiver from QB and attribute success. I don't think you can do that as easily as that.

 

Its the system and the fit...i.e. Randy Moss - Oakland.

 

 

funny how randy "lost a step" and was a 'shell of himself'.... Came to the Pats and BOOM...speed is back The question is was it ever gone? No.

 

Bad dynamic, bad production.

[donhaas 18]

Correct me if im wrong, but wasn't freeman older when he got to the Eagles?

 

 

29

 

Pretty young.....

[redtodd 7]

Yeah, TO sucked that one year he had McNabb throwing to him, too.

 

TO obviously made McNabb look good. McNabb isn't good enough to make an average WR special.

[NewbieJr 541]

TO obviously made McNabb look good. McNabb isn't good enough to make an average WR special.

Someone should raise hell with the Pro Bowl election committee then. McNabb's been there a few times.

[Jesus Christ 0]

In a memo to NFL head coaches and general managers on Sept. 6, 2006, NFL executive vice president of football operations Ray Anderson wrote: "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

 

In the NFL's operations manual, it states that "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." Furthermore, all video shooting locations for coaching purposes "must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

 

So, if I work for a NFL team , shoot video of coaches signals from an area that is enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead that is not accessible to anyone but myself and I have no access to anyone else during the game, am I in violation of the rule, will my team be punished?

 

I know this looks like i'm fishing for an answer that helps the Patriots but I realy would like the NFL to answer that question. I hate that we do not have a defintive answer on this whole matter even as a Patriot fan. I've read and saw on television that some people think you can tape coaches signals just not from the sidelines and other reports that say it can't be done at all. However if you read the rule it just says that videotaping a of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals prohibited in a any location that is accesible to staff members during a game? I know what BB did from the sidelines is wrong but is my above scenario legal? Was BB just wrong with location from which he shot the signals?

 

Once again, i'm not trying to exonerate the Pats, I just want to know what can and can't be done. I'd rather know the whole truth too, how long has it been going on? what advanatge did it give? was this rule specifcally made for the Pats? When was the rule 1st put in place was it leagl in '00 not in '01, '99, '88, was it put in place in '06. I wish the NFL would just answer those questions so there is no hearsay from both sides, if those questions were answered, more solid opinions could be formed be it for the pats or against.

 

EDIT: i'm gonna post this in a more relevant thread, although BB and spygate was brought up here and that's what I was responding to.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

In a memo to NFL head coaches and general managers on Sept. 6, 2006, NFL executive vice president of football operations Ray Anderson wrote: "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

 

In the NFL's operations manual, it states that "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." Furthermore, all video shooting locations for coaching purposes "must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

 

So, if I work for a NFL team , shoot video of coaches signals from an area that is enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead that is not accessible to anyone but myself and I have no access to anyone else during the game, am I in violation of the rule, will my team be punished?

 

I know this looks like i'm fishing for an answer that helps the Patriots but I realy would like the NFL to answer that question. I hate that we do not have a defintive answer on this whole matter even as a Patriot fan. I've read and saw on television that some people think you can tape coaches signals just not from the sidelines and other reports that say it can't be done at all. However if you read the rule it just says that videotaping a of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals prohibited in a any location that is accesible to staff members during a game? I know what BB did from the sidelines is wrong but is my above scenario legal? Was BB just wrong with location from which he shot the signals?

 

Once again, i'm not trying to exonerate the Pats, I just want to know what can and can't be done. I'd rather know the whole truth too, how long has it been going on? what advanatge did it give? was this rule specifcally made for the Pats? When was the rule 1st put in place was it leagl in '00 not in '01, '99, '88, was it put in place in '06. I wish the NFL would just answer those questions so there is no hearsay from both sides, if those questions were answered, more solid opinions could be formed be it for the pats or against.

 

I think that there are other rules that factor into this as well that states that the enclosure must be disclosed and available to both teams. There are also things from the Board of Governors that was used in the ruling that talks about "Polaroids", etc. The way I see it, the memo that was sent out at the beginning of the year essentially said, "Hey, we know our rules are vague and they are in a bunch of places, but here is the deal. No videotaping of the other team's coaches during the game, use the endzone cameras only, etc., etc." BB either did not read it, ignored it, or was still confused. Either way, they were in the wrong.

[NewbieJr 541]

Bump

[Sho Nuff 720]

In a memo to NFL head coaches and general managers on Sept. 6, 2006, NFL executive vice president of football operations Ray Anderson wrote: "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

 

In the NFL's operations manual, it states that "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." Furthermore, all video shooting locations for coaching purposes "must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

 

So, if I work for a NFL team , shoot video of coaches signals from an area that is enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead that is not accessible to anyone but myself and I have no access to anyone else during the game, am I in violation of the rule, will my team be punished?

 

I know this looks like i'm fishing for an answer that helps the Patriots but I realy would like the NFL to answer that question. I hate that we do not have a defintive answer on this whole matter even as a Patriot fan. I've read and saw on television that some people think you can tape coaches signals just not from the sidelines and other reports that say it can't be done at all. However if you read the rule it just says that videotaping a of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals prohibited in a any location that is accesible to staff members during a game? I know what BB did from the sidelines is wrong but is my above scenario legal? Was BB just wrong with location from which he shot the signals?

 

Once again, i'm not trying to exonerate the Pats, I just want to know what can and can't be done. I'd rather know the whole truth too, how long has it been going on? what advanatge did it give? was this rule specifcally made for the Pats? When was the rule 1st put in place was it leagl in '00 not in '01, '99, '88, was it put in place in '06. I wish the NFL would just answer those questions so there is no hearsay from both sides, if those questions were answered, more solid opinions could be formed be it for the pats or against.

 

EDIT: i'm gonna post this in a more relevant thread, although BB and spygate was brought up here and that's what I was responding to.

 

The NFL did answer the question...by fining and taking away a draft pick of the Pats...and NOBODY ELSE!!!

The NFL does not owe the fans any clarification of this at all.

[Jesus Christ 0]

The NFL did answer the question...by fining and taking away a draft pick of the Pats...and NOBODY ELSE!!!

The NFL does not owe the fans any clarification of this at all.

I think they do owe the fans clarification, good money is paid by the fans and we should know what is and isn;t allowed.

 

All the NFL answered was that you cannot video tape coaching signas from the sidelines, they never answered if can be done anywhere else or why & when the rule was first put in place.

 

Once again, I am looking for the general correct answer not an answer that favors the Patriots.

[gocolts 300]

You've missed the point in the comparison between the two Super Bowls. But all that aside, I still disagree with you. The offense was not special that day, and everybody knows it. The defense was amazing, stepping above themselves and stifling the potent Rams' offense. Brady's clutch drive, that apparently was all that he needed for the MVP, got them in field goal range - and a 47-yarder at that - not a TD, and they weren't behind in a game in which they had nothing to lose. Impressive, yes. MVP? Absolutely not.

And don't forget that for some odd reason Marshall Faulk didn't touch the ball when the game was on the line.

[DankNuggs 305]

I think they do owe the fans clarification, good money is paid by the fans and we should know what is and isn;t allowed.

 

All the NFL answered was that you cannot video tape coaching signas from the sidelines, they never answered if can be done anywhere else or why & when the rule was first put in place.

 

Once again, I am looking for the general correct answer not an answer that favors the Patriots.

Mr. Christ - It is a called a witchhunt.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Mr. Christ - It is a called a witchhunt.

 

No...its called one franchise was caught cheating and punished for actually have been found to have been cheating.

[Sho Nuff 720]

I think they do owe the fans clarification, good money is paid by the fans and we should know what is and isn;t allowed.

 

All the NFL answered was that you cannot video tape coaching signas from the sidelines, they never answered if can be done anywhere else or why & when the rule was first put in place.

 

Once again, I am looking for the general correct answer not an answer that favors the Patriots.

 

I simply disagree that the NFL owes fans a clarification of this rule and what is or is not allowed by coaches and personnel in these instances.

Why should they tell that to the fans?

They owe it to each organization to know the rules...beyond that...not really.

 

Why don't you ask the NFL...send them a letter. They might actually answer.

[parrot 789]

And don't forget that for some odd reason Marshall Faulk didn't touch the ball when the game was on the line.

 

What does this mean?

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

What does this mean?

 

It means that he is retarded, just like all of his other posts.

[donhaas 18]

 

[Pimptaddy 0]

Joe Montana is the greatest QB! Favre is not even close and he choked in his second Superbowl appearance. Stick a fork in this guy, he is overrated!

[cmkp0819 0]

Favre is not even close and he choked in his second Superbowl appearance. Stick a fork in this guy, he is overrated!

[GobbleDog 829]

Peyton Manning recently surpassed Dan Marino in my book as the greatest all time. And I'm a Dolphin fan. I put Farve around 6th or so because of his propensity for turnovers.

[Pimptaddy 0]

Peyton Manning recently surpassed Dan Marino in my book as the greatest all time. And I'm a Dolphin fan. I put Farve around 6th or so because of his propensity for turnovers.

 

 

Hate to break the news, but Marino never won a title. The two best QBs are Joe Montana and Unitas. Thanks for playing!

[cmkp0819 0]

Hate to break the news, but Marino never won a title. The two best QBs are Joe Montana and Unitas. Thanks for playing!

Yeah cause your opinions are the "end all, be all".