Where does Kobe rank...

[CantTouchThis 23]

My (maybe black) friend claims Kobe is now the 2nd best all-time player next to MJ. I said he should not be allowed to speak ever again, but then another one of his (maybe black) friends backed him up. Then that caused a huge debate, but it seems that Kobe is now considered to be a top 5 player among a lot of people. At first i thought he is not even in the top 15, but then i thought of who was above him? There are only 2 players in the post MJ era above him in Duncan and Shaq. All time, i dunno, with some research on stats, awards, rings, ect....

 

MJ- 5 MVPs, 6 rings, 6 finals MVPs: 30.1 ppg, 6.2 rbpg, 5.3 apg, 49.7fg%

Magic- 3 MVPs, 5 rings, 19.5ppg, 7.2rbpg, 11.2apg, 52.0fg%

Bird- 3 MVPs, 3 rings; 24.3ppg, 10rbpg, 6.3apg, 49.6fg%

Wilt- 4 MVPs, 2 rings; 30.1ppg, 22.9rbpg , 4.4apg, 54.0fg%

Russell- 5 MVPs, 11 rings; 15.1ppg, 22.5rbpg, 4.3apg, 44.0fg%

Kareem- 6 MVPs, 6 rings; 24.6ppg, 11.2rbpg, 3.6apg, 55.9fg%

Duncan- 2 MVPs, 4 rings; 21.4ppg, 11.7rbpg, 3.2apg, 50.7fg%

Shaq- 1 MVP, 4 rings; 24.7ppg, 11.2rbpg, 2.6apg, 58.2fg%

 

IMO that is the clear cut top 8, seriously after these 8 there is a noticeable dropoff. All these players(besides Shaq, but much of his prime was with MJ) has multiple MVPs and multiple rings with very good stats. Here are the players, imo, on the next level just below the elite 8...

 

Kobe- 1 MVP, 4 rings; 25.1ppg, 5.3rbpg, 4.6apg, 45.5fg%

Oscar- 1 MVP, 1 ring; 25.7ppg, 7.5rbpg, 9.2apg, 48.5fg%

K.Malone- 2 MVPs, 0 rings; 25.0ppg, 10.1rbpg, 3.6apg, 51.6fg%

M.Malone- 3 MVPs, 1 ring; 20.6ppg, 12.2rbpg, 1.4apg, 49.1fg%

Hakeem- 1 MVP, 2 rings; 21.8ppg, 11.1rbpg, 2.5apg, 51.2fg%

D.Robinson- 1 MVP, 2 rings; 21.1ppg, 10.6rbpg, 2.5apg, 51.8fg%

C.Barkley- 1 MVP, 0 rings; 22.1ppg, 11.7rbpg, 3.9apg, 54.1fg%

West- 0 MVP, 1 ring; 27.0ppg, 5.8rbpg, 6.7apg, 47.4fg%

J.Erving- 1 MVP, 1 ring; 22.0ppg, 6.7rbpg, 3.9apg, 50.7fg%

 

So, you could argue Kobe is the 9th best player of all time. I would rank him 13th. I think it goes..

 

9. Oscar

10. Hakeem

11. M.Malone

12. D.Robinson

13. Kobe

 

Damn, honestly surprised, really since he won his 4th and his MVP, he is definitely top 20 at least. I use to hate Kobe, but i now like him and respect him. If he wins more rings he will rise even more, but i don't think i can ever say he is better than Shaq or Duncan, even if he wins 2 or 3 more....

 

 

 

 

 

[NewbieJr 540]

Your friend is partially correct. Kobe is the second best player...........currently.

 

 

Kobe's probably in the top 10-15 all-time.

[listen2me 23 1,553]

I think he is top 10 right now, but has the potential to be a top 3 player. And I hate Kobe.

[CantTouchThis 23]

I think he is top 10 right now, but has the potential to be a top 3 player. And I hate Kobe.

 

Noooooooooooo way, no way he is ever rated above MJ, Magic, Bird, Wilt, or Russell. He could have near-MVP seasons for the next 5 years with 3 more rings and i still wouldn't put him in the top 5, those 5 are just on another level, the only player that could crack that at one point is LBJ.

[CantTouchThis 23]

Your friend is partially correct. Kobe is the second best player...........currently.

Kobe's probably in the top 10-15 all-time.

 

No, he claimed he is the 2nd best player of all-time next to MJ. I would rank Kobe 1b, and Bron 1a. It's really close right now, Kobe is more clutch and a better outside shooter, they are even on defense, Bron is better in the paint and a better passer.

 

However, again, i don't see Kobe rising much more, but Bron has the potential to de-crown MJ as the best ever.

[remote controller 133]

He will be top 10 for awhile.

[GettnHuge 1]

Didn't we do this back in May for 'starting 5/team' and such? I put em:

 

PG Magic, Oscar

SG, Jordan, West

SF Bird, Baylor, Lebron

PF Russell, Duncan

C Wilt, Kareem, Olajuwon

 

just out:

PG Isiah, Stockton

SG Kobe, Dr. J

SF Havlicek, Dominique,

PF Lucas, karl malone, Pettit

C Shaq, moses malone, david robinson

 

 

I'd say Kobe would fall in that 12-15 range. If I had to rank the above names...

 

1. wilt

2. jordan

3. russell

4. bird

5. magic

6. oscar

7. west

8. kareem

9. baylor

10. olajuwon

11. duncan

12. lebron

13. lucas

14. kobe

15. shaq

16. isiah

17. havlicek

18. stockton

19. pettit

20. moses malone

21. Dr J

22. dominique

23. karl malone

24. Robinson

[listen2me 23 1,553]

Noooooooooooo way, no way he is ever rated above MJ, Magic, Bird, Wilt, or Russell. He could have near-MVP seasons for the next 5 years with 3 more rings and i still wouldn't put him in the top 5, those 5 are just on another level, the only player that could crack that at one point is LBJ.

 

I hate defending Kobe in anything. But why?

 

He has 4 championships, has all the all-star games, scoring titles, defensive 1st teams and is what 31 or so years old? Why couldn't he be in that conversation? What does Lebron have that makes you think he can be that good but Kobe cant....all those championships? err..wait...

 

Maybe he will never get to that level, but he has the potential to be mentioned along with those guys you named.

[listen2me 23 1,553]

No, he claimed he is the 2nd best player of all-time next to MJ. I would rank Kobe 1b, and Bron 1a. It's really close right now, Kobe is more clutch and a better outside shooter, they are even on defense, Bron is better in the paint and a better passer.

 

However, again, i don't see Kobe rising much more, but Bron has the potential to de-crown MJ as the best ever.

 

You are delusional. Why does Lebron have that potential? Because he is young? He has showed me next to nothing in the clutch/killer instinct/winner/champion aspect of greatness.

 

Kobe is a better player than Lebron right now. Lebron will wow you with him size, triple doubles, and dunks. But he will disappoint in the playoffs, at the line, and having "it". Lebron is a great player, but what basis do you use when you put him above Kobe and give him all this potential to be better than MJ? Please explain.

[GettnHuge 1]

You are delusional. Why does Lebron have that potential? Because he is young? He has showed me next to nothing in the clutch/killer instinct/winner/champion aspect of greatness.

 

Kobe is a better player than Lebron right now. Lebron will wow you with him size, triple doubles, and dunks. But he will disappoint in the playoffs, at the line, and having "it". Lebron is a great player, but what basis do you use when you put him above Kobe and give him all this potential to be better than MJ? Please explain.

 

I hate putting young/active players in rankings like that. And I'm no Lebron fan, but I can't ignore the numbers he's putting up.

The Kobe vs. Lebron debate for career accomplishment is like comparing a star for the yankees to a star for the indians. Lebron

will get his.

 

Lebron 09 playoffs: 35pts 9reb 7ast

career: 27, 7r, 7a

 

kobe career: 25, 5r, 4.5a

[NewbieJr 540]

You are delusional. Why does Lebron have that potential? Because he is young? He has showed me next to nothing in the clutch/killer instinct/winner/champion aspect of greatness.

 

Kobe is a better player than Lebron right now. Lebron will wow you with him size, triple doubles, and dunks. But he will disappoint in the playoffs, at the line, and having "it". Lebron is a great player, but what basis do you use when you put him above Kobe and give him all this potential to be better than MJ? Please explain.

Lebron is the best player in the league right now. At lebron's current age, Kobe wasn't even the best player ON HIS TEAM. Lebron definitely has the ability to overcome, or at least equal, Jordan as the best ever. In another year or two, everyone will realize how laughable it was to put Kobe in teh same sentence as Lebron.

[listen2me 23 1,553]

I hate putting young/active players in rankings like that. And I'm no Lebron fan, but I can't ignore the numbers he's putting up.

The Kobe vs. Lebron debate for career accomplishment is like comparing a star for the yankees to a star for the indians. Lebron

will get his.

 

Lebron 09 playoffs: 35pts 9reb 7ast

career: 27, 7r, 7a

 

kobe career: 25, 5r, 4.5a

 

Lebron's last game of the year win or go home.

 

40% from the field

25% from 3 (2-8)

63% from the line

 

Sure he puts up good all around numbers, he is a physical freak, but being a freak doesn't always mean better player. He is good no doubt. In the end he will have some of the best per game stats of all time, most likely better than MJs, does that mean he is better?

[listen2me 23 1,553]

Lebron is the best player in the league right now. At lebron's current age, Kobe wasn't even the best player ON HIS TEAM. Lebron definitely has the ability to overcome, or at least equal, Jordan as the best ever. In another year or two, everyone will realize how laughable it was to put Kobe in teh same sentence as Lebron.

 

I just disagree. I guess we will see, he can show us to prove it, but I'm not in to projecting players' futures, I'm sure everyone will agree that his stats are 2nd to none, not his %s. If you want to say his stats will be better than MJs or anyone's for that matter then I cannot argue. If that makes you think he is the best player then we just judge "best" in different ways.

[GettnHuge 1]

Lebron's last game of the year win or go home.

 

40% from the field

25% from 3 (2-8)

63% from the line

 

Sure he puts up good all around numbers, he is a physical freak, but being a freak doesn't always mean better player. He is good no doubt. In the end he will have some of the best per game stats of all time, most likely better than MJs, does that mean he is better?

 

and michael jordan put up great all around numbers but still got blasted out of his first 6 playoffs. so what? Wilt only won 2 titles.

Lebron hasn't had a shaq in his prime, or gasol/odom. Like I said, you're comparing a great guy on a talented team to a great guy

on a crap team.

[CantTouchThis 23]

You are delusional. Why does Lebron have that potential? Because he is young? He has showed me next to nothing in the clutch/killer instinct/winner/champion aspect of greatness.

 

Kobe is a better player than Lebron right now. Lebron will wow you with him size, triple doubles, and dunks. But he will disappoint in the playoffs, at the line, and having "it". Lebron is a great player, but what basis do you use when you put him above Kobe and give him all this potential to be better than MJ? Please explain.

 

Kobe just the past few years really established himself as a top 20 all-time player because he was always in Shaq's shadow. Kobe has about 3-4 more years of being a dominant player, and i think he could get another ring or two.

 

LeBron is only 24 years...24. Yes, his age has a lot to do with it. Bron's potential is 5-7 MVPs, 5+ rings and so on. Can you imagine his numbers when he reaches his prime? We are talking 35/9/8 type of potential. Kobe just now won one without Shaq...and that is why i can never see him making the top 5, 3 of his rings was with Shaq in his absolute prime. No doubt they wouldn't of won them without Kobe, but still Shaq was the main reason they 3-peated. Give Bron a GOOD supporting cast(his supporting cast was serviceable at best this year) and i think he will definitely win a few rings.

 

LeBron is not as clutch as Kobe...yet. To say he hasn't shown clutch/killer instinct is ignorant. As a Piston fan, i still have nightmares in 07' when he shredded a great defensive team, scoring the last 25 points for his team to literally single handedly win the game and the series. Seriously, i have never seen a player put a team on his back and carry a team to the finals the way he did that year, that was just a dreadful team and they went to the finals through a very good Pistons team, to get demolished by an amazing Spurs team, but still...

 

Kobe is still the most clutch player in the game and one of the most clutch players ever. I don't think Bron will ever be as clutch as Kobe to be honest.

 

Also, i am in no way saying Bron is above Kobe on the all-time list, he is no where even close at this point.

[JT 137]

So, in your mind, only 3 of the top 10 players in the history of professional basketball played even a single game prior to 1979?

 

You can't rank the top half dozen players of all-time without including Oscar Robertson. A better player than Shaq or Duncan (and I'm a fan of both). He's a coin flip vs Magic and Bird. Only Jordan, Chamberlain, Russell and Kareem are clearly his equal.

 

As for Kobe's place in history, the argument is always interesting. How many titles has Shaq won without Kobe? One, with Wade. You don't win titles in the NBA...never have...with only one star player. I'm sure there are an isolated instance or three (Rick Barry's Golden State team comes to mind, though he had some really good overlooked teamates), but for the most part it just doesn't happen.

 

Oscar won when he joined Kareem. Kareem got back on top when they got Magic. Bird played with a roster of HOFers, as did Russell. Wilt played with great guys; just not as many as Boston had. Jordan didn't win til Pippen came along. And on and on and on.

 

Bryant does more well than anyone in the game today, and he does it night in and night out. Despite his laughable inclusion on All Defensive teams, James is nowhere close to the defender Kobe is. Takes too many possessions off. Kobe plays without the ball better than James right now. And the fact that he's posted the numbers he has throughout his career with good players around him is actually a positive, in my eyes. Lots of guys can fill the box score when there's nobody else to do it. That's LeBron's situation right now. And as freakish physically as he is, James won't retain his speed...the thing that makes him more unstoppable than any other single factor...if he has to continue to monopolize the ball like he does currently. He's just too big, and he's gonna get old. And the NBA will make you old, fast. In 5 years, LeBron will be more power forward than guard. Count on it.

 

It's tough to rank players of different positions. But Bryant's among the 5 best to ever play his position. Noone else in the game currently, with the exception of Duncan and Shaq, can claim that. Not even close.

[CantTouchThis 23]

So, in your mind, only 3 of the top 10 players in the history of professional basketball played even a single game prior to 1979?

 

You can't rank the top half dozen players of all-time without including Oscar Robertson. A better player than Shaq or Duncan (and I'm a fan of both). He's a coin flip vs Magic and Bird. Only Jordan, Chamberlain, Russell and Kareem are clearly his equal.

 

I love Oscar, the dude averaged a triple double, and not 12/10/10, he averaged 31/12/11, we will NEVER see that again, ever. He just missed out on the triple double averge 4 times, he was within .5 in RB or APG his first 5 years, just nuts. However, in my rankings i ranked based on MVPs and titles, with consideration for stats and impact on the game, ect. That is why i put him right behind the elite 8. At their prime, i would take Oscar over everyone but MJ, Bird, Magic, Wilt or Kareem. However, i think rings and MVPs, especially rings, really indicate the best of the best. If Oscar had won like 3 or 4 rings he would be top 6 for sure. That is why Russell is Russell, a defensive beast but was a very marginal arguably crappy offensive player...but the dude won 11 rings and has 5 MVP trophies, you just can't argue with that, i don't care if he averaged 5ppg and shot 30% from the field, 11 rings and 5 MVPs trump any weakness in stats.

 

That is also why West missed my top level, one ring 0 MVPs...now, this was is Wilt and Russell's era, he clearly would've one at least 1 or 2 in any other era, along with more rings as well. Of course, this is all a factor to different era, how you can compare and contrast players from different eras.

 

However, this particular ranking system i posted was about 75% based on MVP trophies and rings. Of course, then people will say "Why isn't Horry up there? He won 7 rings!!!" This is why i included MVP trophies in the argument, also i considered whether or not the player was the key or a very key player to the rings. This is why Kobe will, imo, will probably never crack the top 8, and will never crack the top 6. 3 of his rings was won as wing man during Shaq's dominating prime, which especially was shown when the Lakers made the finals and Shaq just destroyed everything that moved in the finals, which is why he won all 3 MVPs in the finals in a landslide.

[kutulu 1,554]

Bump

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kobe a little higher in yer rankings.

[Saint Elistan 106]

Numba 1!

[gocolts 300]

Bump

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kobe a little higher in yer rankings.

Fock yeah!!! :lol:

[GettnHuge 1]

That is also why West missed my top level, one ring 0 MVPs...now, this was is Wilt and Russell's era,

 

didn't you know? everyone besides those two in that era were 5' tall white guys who couldn't play.

[Gepetto 991]

didn't you know? everyone besides those two in that era were 5' tall white guys who couldn't play.

 

There's a lot of tall athletic black guys in the NBA right now who are worse basketball players by a long ways than those white guys from the '50s and '60s (and they were actually tall) along with good black players played back then too.

[listen2me 23 1,553]

I won this thread. As Lebron yet again has a few stinkers when it really matters. Didn't even make the East Finals....

[CantTouchThis 23]

Bump

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kobe a little higher in yer rankings.

 

I forgot about this thread, i don't remember who made the argument either, and i only have one black friend

 

It's funny how much i have change on Kobe. I use to HATE Kobe a lot, he started to gain my respect in 08' and when he won it last year. His leadership and maturity has impressed me a lot, i have taken a complete 180 on him. He is now my 2nd favorite player in the league behind Billups. It's also funny how i have also taken a 180 on Bron. I pretty much only liked him to spite Kobe, but i am REALLY starting to hate Bron. Bron is now like Kobe circa 05' without the rings; most dominant player in the league that is a total douche bag.

 

Kobe is now, officially, the best post-Jordan era player. By just appearing in these finals he has surpassed Shaq and Duncan, if he wins, there is no question at all. I think the post-Jordan rankings go something like:

 

Kobe

Shaq/Duncan(I have Shaq over Timmy, but it's close)

AI

D-Wade

Bron

Nash

Dirk

 

Yeah, i have AI and D-Wade over Bron...for now. D-Wade has a ring and AI is AI, say what you want about him and his off court antics, he was one of the best offensive players to ever play, and was one of the toughest players to play too. I know a lot of people would disagree with that, but i was a big AI fan.

 

If he wins #5, i would still put MJ, Magic, Wilt, Bill, Kareem above him at least. So, #6? Maybe lower, but #6 seems pretty right. Him and Larry would be close, but i would have to put Kobe over LB.

 

#6 he moves to #3/2

 

#7....2

 

#8....2

 

Sorry, just can't rank Kobe over MJ. I know MJ needed Pippen to win rings, and he won them in the watered down 90s, but i just could never bring myself to put anyone over MJ. His impact on the game and his overall dominance just will never be surpassed. I love Kobe, but the best he can be is #2.

[heavy-set 39]

you cannot compare eras in sports. expansion has watered down the product and the rules have changed to make it easier to score. there are many more international players in the league too. in other words, its not the same game.

 

kobe is the best player of the post-MJ generation.

MJ owned the 90s

the 80s were owned by magic and larry

 

pre-1980 I was just a 4 year old so i dont know

[dain11279 930]

I forgot about this thread, i don't remember who made the argument either, and i only have one black friend

 

Racist!

[surferskin 30]

Kobe is prolly around the 10 range. At this point, I don't really care how many title's he ends up with playing on the loaded Lakers...he's already maxed out IMO.

[drobeski 3,061]

there are over 10 past celtics he never surpass

[DankNuggs 305]

Kobe has never been the best player on his OWN TEAM when winning a championship....

 

 

Shaq was the horse at the beginning, and Gasol has been the horse since...

 

 

Kobe is a ballhog that shoots in the 40% range... Kobe can be mentioned among the best of this generation i suppose, but i don't think he makes top 10 overall...no chance...

[edjr 5,602]

in the 2008 and 2010 finals, Kobme has had 1 good game out of 8

 

he's extremely over-rated.

 

2008

 

Game 1 24 pts 9 - 26

Game 2 30 pts 11 - 23

Game 3 36 pts 12 - 20

Game 4 17 pts 6 - 19

Game 5 25 pts 8 - 21

 

2010

 

Game 1 30 pts 10 -22

Game 2 21 pts 8 - 20

Game 3 29 pts 10 - 29

 

in 8 games he has scored over 30 pts once and shot over 50% once with an overall of 41%

[cbfalcon 824]

Bill Simmons HOF Pyramid goes something like this.

 

1. Michael Jordan

2. Bill Russell

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4. Magic Johnson

5. Larry Bird

6. Wilt Chamberlain

 

That's a very clear top 6 IMO that can't be debated.

 

 

7. Tim Duncan

8. Jerry West

9. Oscar Robertson

10. Hakeem Olajuwon

11. Shaquille O'Neal

 

Kobe goes in this group now. Where? Unsure but I see him as Duncan's equal assuming they win this year.

[Strike 4,026]

The jealousy from the Celtic fans is endearing. Must suck to only have one title in the last 20+ years.

[surferskin 30]

The jealousy from the Celtic fans is endearing. Must suck to only have one title in the last 20+ years.

So where do you rank him, homer?

[NewbieJr 540]

Bill Simmons HOF Pyramid goes something like this.

 

1. Michael Jordan

2. Bill Russell

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4. Magic Johnson

5. Larry Bird

6. Wilt Chamberlain

 

That's a very clear top 6 IMO that can't be debated.

 

 

7. Tim Duncan

8. Jerry West

9. Oscar Robertson

10. Hakeem Olajuwon

11. Shaquille O'Neal

 

Kobe goes in this group now. Where? Unsure but I see him as Duncan's equal assuming they win this year.

Kobe replaces Tim Duncan right now. Duncan doesn't belong there.

 

In another 3 years, Lebron kicks Kobe back out. As of now, Lebron doesn't have a big enough body of work.

[Fenster 6]

As of now, Lebron doesn't have a big enough body of work.

 

How many more Championships does he not win?

[NewbieJr 540]

How many more Championships does he not win?

Who cares? He's never been on a Cavalier team that would have even finished over .500 without him. KObe would also have zero with the teams Lebron has been on. Championships are waaaaaay overrated. Will Perdue has rings.

[surferskin 30]

Who cares? He's never been on a Cavalier team that would have even finished over .500 without him. KObe would also have zero with the teams Lebron has been on. Championships are waaaaaay overrated. Will Perdue has rings.

But his team has choked 2 years in a row. That's not moving him up anyone's list. Contrast that with Jordan...his team NEVER lost to a lower seed. That's an awesome stat.

[cbfalcon 824]

Kobe replaces Tim Duncan right now. Duncan doesn't belong there.

 

In another 3 years, Lebron kicks Kobe back out. As of now, Lebron doesn't have a big enough body of work.

 

Duncan doesn't belong there? The guy single handedly (the only other clear HOFer he played with was Robinson and he wasn't that great by the time they were winning) has lead the Spurs to 11 straight 50 win seasons and 4 titles.

 

Or do you just mean Kobe moves to #7 and those guys are pushed down a spot? I agree with that.

[Fenster 6]

Championships are waaaaaay overrated.

 

Err...no they are not. They are The Measuring Stick. He'll need at least one to enter the discusion. Sorry.

[DankNuggs 305]

Who cares? He's never been on a Cavalier team that would have even finished over .500 without him. KObe would also have zero with the teams Lebron has been on. Championships are waaaaaay overrated. Will Perdue has rings.

Nah... this is why the NBA is awful... Its all about Harlem Globetrotter baseketball without caring about winnning...

 

Funny that in terms of offenses, the only one you hear about as a SYSTEM is the triangle offense... In football we can name off dozens of offensive/defensive sets, understand 4-3 vs 3-4 vs nickle vs west coast vs run n shoot vs wishbone vs tampa 2...etc..

 

Basketball has ONE offense, and that offense won 6 titles in this era...

 

Very little organization, very little strategy.... its a really dumb sport that needs to advance strategy as much as the athleticism has advanced.