Miami Heat sucxors

[KSB2424 3,087]

The difference between LBJ and KG is that KG was getting his brains beat in for years with that organization (save for a couple good seasons).....where LBJ was on a top team winning 60 games, and contending a for a title and left.....FOR LESS MONEY!

The only thing you just proved was that LBJ is better than Garnett as LBJ made if further with the same type of supporting casts. Both played over 7 years with their original team and gave it a try with the team that drafted them.

[NewbieJr 541]

The difference between LBJ and KG is that KG was getting his brains beat in for years with that organization (save for a couple good seasons).....where LBJ was on a top team winning 60 games, and contending a for a title and left.....FOR LESS MONEY!

Lebron knows that his entire legacy will be based upon whether or not he could get any championship rings. As he realized he wasn't a Jordan or Kobe type who could win one without another superstar or two on his team, he decided to try to manufacter an all-star team to make it look like he's also a championship caliber player. Winning three with teh Heat won't be as impressive as if he'd have just stayed home and managed to win one with the Cavs. When they finally win their first, it's going to be a ho-hum moment.

[KSB2424 3,087]

Lebron knows that his entire legacy will be based upon whether or not he could get any championship rings. As he realized he wasn't a Jordan or Kobe type who could win one without another superstar or two on his team, he decided to try to manufacter an all-star team to make it look like he's also a championship caliber player. Winning three with teh Heat won't be as impressive as if he'd have just stayed home and managed to win one with the Cavs. When they finally win their first, it's going to be a ho-hum moment.

Why do you insist on posting in NBA threads when its obvious you know nothing about the NBA and have admitted to not liking it and never watching?

[Strike 4,084]

The landscape of how teams are constructed and managed has changed. There is now salary caps, free agency, rookie wage scales, etc.

 

The 80's Lakers wouldn't have been able to pay Byron Scott, Cooper, and Bob Macadoo. They couldn't of paid Worth/Magic/Kareem their money and still paid market value for those KEY, really good role players. Not in today's environment/landscape. It's a different time.

 

Is there really a difference of Kevin Garnett (or Melo/Howard/CP3) demading a trade out of Minnesota to a contender (with other good players) than it is a Free Agent signing with a contender with another really good player? The real answer is No, of course not.

 

The anti-Lebron crowd doesn't think with their mind, they think with their emotions. Like women.

 

The salary cap existed for half of the showtime Lakers era, and within three years of both Worthy and Scott being drafted. Somehow they WERE able to pay those guys. Maybe guys just weren't as greedy back then?

[Cruzer 1,993]

Lebron knows that his entire legacy will be based upon whether or not he could get any championship rings. As he realized he wasn't a Jordan or Kobe type who could win one without another superstar or two on his team, he decided to try to manufacter an all-star team to make it look like he's also a championship caliber player. Winning three with teh Heat won't be as impressive as if he'd have just stayed home and managed to win one with the Cavs. When they finally win their first, it's going to be a ho-hum moment.

Omg, if LaFraud made the "decision" that big of a production - can you imagine the circus that will ensue if by chance he does win a title? He and Wade will prolly stand up there and declare that their championship as the greatest sports feat since the Miracle on Ice. :barf:

[KSB2424 3,087]

The salary cap existed for half of the showtime Lakers era, and within three years of both Worthy and Scott being drafted. Somehow they WERE able to pay those guys. Maybe guys just weren't as greedy back then?

Yup, same kind of salary cap. Its the exact same.

 

And Lebron extended once in Cleveland from his rookie contract and then after that was over took less money by going to Miami not more. How is that greedy?

 

It's a different time. It's a different NBA. Its not just a different Lebron James folks. Smarten up.

[Strike 4,084]

Yup, same kind of salary cap. Its the exact same.

 

 

What the fock does this mean? You're the one who brought up the uncapped era. If it's not the same please explain the differences between the salary cap as it existed in say 1986, compared to now, and how those changes would have been more beneficial during that era. Please. I'm all ears.

[KSB2424 3,087]

The Spurs have figured it out. They have three franchise players over the years but continue to let older guys who they had to pay go and build their 4-12 with young guys throught smart drafting. It's kept them competitive for a decade now.

 

OKC will have similar decisions to make. They will do all they can to keep Durant/Westbrook but guys like Ibacka and Harden will demand a larger contract once their rookie deals are up. It's doubtful they can extend Durant/Westbrook AND keep both Harden and/or Ibaka in a couple years when the time comes. They are young, but it comes a time when you have to pay for services rendered.

 

Its a sign of the times, not a sign of one player.

[NewbieJr 541]

Why do you insist on posting in NBA threads when its obvious you know nothing about the NBA and have admitted to not liking it and never watching?

I love playoff basketball. Teh regular season bores me. I know more about basketball than you'll ever know, candy ass. You were in the chess club while I was crashing the boards and averaging 16 a game in high school.

[KSB2424 3,087]

What the fock does this mean? You're the one who brought up the uncapped era. If it's not the same please explain the differences between the salary cap as it existed in say 1986, compared to now, and how those changes would have been more beneficial during that era. Please. I'm all ears.

There are luxuary taxes, sign and trade rules, salary matching trade rules, all sorts of things in the NBA now (or different) than were in the 80's. It's a different time, different salaries, more teams... in smaller markets...with more player movement.

[Strike 4,084]

There are luxuary taxes, sign and trade rules, salary matching trade rules, all sorts of things in the NBA now (or different) than were in the 80's. It's a different time, different salaries, more teams... in smaller markets...with more player movement.

 

None of this sheds light on whether the rules then were more beneficial or the rules a couple of years ago when Lequit signed with the Heat were. Change doesn't mean one is better than another. It just means they're different. So, basically, you're talking out of your arse again. Before the current CBA was enacted last year the players share of BRI was 57%. I'm pretty sure the players didn't get 57% of the league BRI in 1986. So again, feel free to compare and contrast the salary cap then versus now and which one is/was more beneficial to the players or owners. I'm still all ears.......

[cyclone24 1,836]

I love playoff basketball. Teh regular season bores me. I know more about basketball than you'll ever know, candy ass. You were in the chess club while I was crashing the boards and averaging 16 a game in high school.

 

 

hehe...16 a game. You know how many schleps average 16 a game?

 

But i agree with your post about LBJ....he will be judged by rings bc he has put himself in that spot to be judged that way.

[cbfalcon 824]

Yeah, I wasn't arguing your original point. Until Lebron wins one, there will always be questions.

 

Unfortunately, Lebron created a situation in which even when he does win one, there will always be questions on if he could have carried a team to a title like the guys before him did..

[cbfalcon 824]

The Spurs have figured it out. They have three franchise players over the years but continue to let older guys who they had to pay go and build their 4-12 with young guys throught smart drafting. It's kept them competitive for a decade now.

 

Parker and Ginobli are not "franchise players". In their 20 combined years, they have a total of 1 season scoring 20 points. The are great 2nd and 3rd options, but neither guy at his peak even goes in the category of a Bosh level player based on talent.

[NewbieJr 541]

hehe...16 a game. You know how many schleps average 16 a game?

 

But i agree with your post about LBJ....he will be judged by rings bc he has put himself in that spot to be judged that way.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I was far from a superstar. Not even the best player on my team. But I could beat all the chess club dorks.

[Strike 4,084]

Parker and Ginobli are not "franchise players". In their 20 combined years, they have a total of 1 season scoring 20 points. The are great 2nd and 3rd options, but neither guy at his peak even goes in the category of a Bosh level player based on talent.

 

Tony Parker is absolutely a franchise player. And, while hard to compare across positions, IMO he's much more of a franchise player than Bosh. I mean, what did Bosh do when he WAS the franchise player in Toronto? Or, more importantly, what did his TEAMS do? Oh right, they sucked. Put Tony Parker on a lottery team and I'd bet his individual stats would go up, just like Bosh when he was in Toronto. Now that Bosh is on a true team, like Parker, guess what? He averages less than 20 pts/game, just like Parker. Funny how that happens sometimes.....

[cyclone24 1,836]

Tony Parker is absolutely a franchise player. And, while hard to compare across positions, IMO he's much more of a franchise player than Bosh. I mean, what did Bosh do when he WAS the franchise player in Toronto? Or, more importantly, what did his TEAMS do? Oh right, they sucked. Put Tony Parker on a lottery team and I'd bet his individual stats would go up, just like Bosh when he was in Toronto. Now that Bosh is on a true team, like Parker, guess what? He averages less than 20 pts/game, just like Parker. Funny how that happens sometimes.....

 

 

This

 

TP can play for me any day.

[Stewburtx8 67]

Parker and Ginobli are not "franchise players". In their 20 combined years, they have a total of 1 season scoring 20 points. The are great 2nd and 3rd options, but neither guy at his peak even goes in the category of a Bosh level player based on talent.

 

 

Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili will both probably be Hall of Famers someday. Put them on a team other than the Spurs, and they both average over 20 points per game consistently.

[KSB2424 3,087]

None of this sheds light on whether the rules then were more beneficial or the rules a couple of years ago when Lequit signed with the Heat were. Change doesn't mean one is better than another. It just means they're different. So, basically, you're talking out of your arse again. Before the current CBA was enacted last year the players share of BRI was 57%. I'm pretty sure the players didn't get 57% of the league BRI in 1986. So again, feel free to compare and contrast the salary cap then versus now and which one is/was more beneficial to the players or owners. I'm still all ears.......

Two questions.

 

1. Was there or was there not less player movement in the 80's as there is today?

 

2. If so, then why?

 

I'll answer for you. Yes there is more player movement today, its due to a myriad of factors and changes over the years. Changes in salary caps, rookie wage scales, more and more teams in smaller and smaller markets being some of them.

 

Furthermore Bird, Magic, Jordan, Russell, etc. all were drafted on to big market teams already. If Magic Johnson was drafted by the Milawakee Bucks he would've ended up in Boston, or LA eventually. Just like Kareem did. Just like Garnett went from small market Minny to Boston.

 

Lebron paid his dues in Cleveland and moved on. So should everybody else.

[cbfalcon 824]

Tony Parker and Ginobli are future hall of famers because they did what they did for multiple title teams. But if the league had redrafted in any given season, neither ever goes in the top 15 at any point in their careers IMO.

 

Great players and obviously 3-4 rings make them legendary. They could probably put up 20+ on their own teams, but 18-25 guys do that per season most of the time. That doesn't make you a franchise player.

 

I love them both and would love them on my team. But if they are my best player, I don't like my odds of ever reaching the second round.

[Stewburtx8 67]

None of this sheds light on whether the rules then were more beneficial or the rules a couple of years ago when Lequit signed with the Heat were. Change doesn't mean one is better than another. It just means they're different. So, basically, you're talking out of your arse again. Before the current CBA was enacted last year the players share of BRI was 57%. I'm pretty sure the players didn't get 57% of the league BRI in 1986. So again, feel free to compare and contrast the salary cap then versus now and which one is/was more beneficial to the players or owners. I'm still all ears.......

 

 

I would say it was much easier to form a dominant team back in the mid 80's than it is now. The 1986 Boston Celtics had 5 future hall of famers as well as 2 other guys who made All-Star teams. Bird was 29, McHale was 28, Parish was 32, Dennis Johnson was 31, Bill Walton was 33, Danny Ainge was 26, and Scott Wedman was 33. I would think it would be impossible to have that many good/great players in their prime on one team today.

[KSB2424 3,087]

Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili will both probably be Hall of Famers someday. Put them on a team other than the Spurs, and they both average over 20 points per game consistently.

Put them on the 2009 Cleveland Cavs instead of Mo Williams and Zyrunas Illgaskus and Lebron is still in Cleveland going for a threepeat. Cleveland couldn't surrond LeBron with guys like that. He gave then 7 years to to do it, they didn't, so he moved on.

[cyclone24 1,836]

Two questions.

 

1. Was there or was there not less player movement in the 80's as there is today?

 

2. If so, then why?

 

I'll answer for you. Yes there is more player movement today, its due to a myriad of factors and changes over the years. Changes in salary caps, rookie wage scales, more and more teams in smaller and smaller markets being some of them.

 

Furthermore Bird, Magic, Jordan, Russell, etc. all were drafted on to big market teams already. If Magic Johnson was drafted by the Milawakee Bucks he would've ended up in Boston, or LA eventually. Kust like Kareem did. Just like Garnett went from small market Minny to Boston.

 

Lebron paid his dues in Cleveland and moved on. So should everybody else.

 

 

The issue is not whether he paid his due.....its that he paid his due, built a great team that won 60 games in a state that adored him....and he left...took less money...to try and ride Wade and Bosh's coattails to win.

 

Completely different than KG or others who had bad teams.

[Strike 4,084]

Two questions.

 

1. Was there or was there not less player movement in the 80's as there is today?

 

2. If so, then why?

 

I'll answer for you. Yes there is more player movement today, its due to a myriad of factors and changes over the years. Changes in salary caps, rookie wage scales, more and more teams in smaller and smaller markets being some of them.

 

Furthermore Bird, Magic, Jordan, Russell, etc. all were drafted on to big market teams already. If Magic Johnson was drafted by the Milawakee Bucks he would've ended up in Boston, or LA eventually. Kust like Kareem did. Just like Garnett went from small market Minny to Boston.

 

Lebron paid his dues in Cleveland and moved on. So should everybody else.

 

Link to stats? I bet you don't have any. I couldn't tell you if there was, quite honestly, and I doubt you can prove it either. And you don't define "player movement." What is that? Do role players signing with other teams count, or let me guess, you mean just star players right? But then how do you define star player? And there were plenty of stars on small market teams back then. Just like now. Durant and Westbrook just signed long term extensions in OKC. Is OKC a large market team? Just because there are a few selfish dooshes in the NBA (Lebron, Melo, etc...) doesn't mean there aren't stars more than willing to build up a small market team in to an NBA contender. And bringing up Garnett is idiotic. He stayed for 12 years in Minnesota wanting to win a title there. I'm not sure he ever even asked to be traded, despite his frustration there.

[KSB2424 3,087]

..to try and ride Wade and Bosh's coattails to win.

If you've watched any baskeball games whatsoever you'd know that LeBron isn't riding any coat tails. He's the best player on his team, the only consitent player on the Heat game in and game out, and is the MVP of the league.

 

Your statement is the exact reason I say that the anti Lebron crowd isn't thinking with their heads, they are thinking with their emotions. They don't like him so they literally make stuff up.

 

Saying Lebron is riding Bosh and Wades coat tails is like saying Bird rode Parrish's coat tails or Jordan was riding Scottie Pipppins coat tails. It's mind numbingly stupid.

[Strike 4,084]

I would say it was much easier to form a dominant team back in the mid 80's than it is now. The 1986 Boston Celtics had 5 future hall of famers as well as 2 other guys who made All-Star teams. Bird was 29, McHale was 28, Parish was 32, Dennis Johnson was 31, Bill Walton was 33, Danny Ainge was 26, and Scott Wedman was 33. I would think it would be impossible to have that many good/great players in their prime on one team today.

 

That's one of the reasons Bird retired. The expansion of the league had diluted the talent level to the point that the bad teams were REALLY bad. And I think it was that way for a number of years after he retired. But with the improvement of international players I feel that the dilution is much less than it was back then. You might not get quite the same level of team as the Celtics/Lakers/Pistons had in that era but there are some VERY good teams that would give those teams a run for their money in todays NBA.

[Strike 4,084]

If you've watched any baskeball games whatsoever you'd know that LeBron isn't riding any coat tails. He's the best player on his team, the only consitent player on ththe Heat game in and game out, and is the MVP of the league.

 

Your statement is the exact reason I say that the anti Lebron crowd isn't thinking with their heads, they are thinking with their emotions. They don't like him so they literally make stuff up.

 

Saying Lebron is riding Bosh and Wades coat tails is like saying Bird rode Parrish's coat tails or Jordan was riding Scottie Pipppins coat tails. It's mind numbingly stupid.

 

You're right. And Lebron demonstrated his consistency perfectly against the Mavs last year.

 

[Reality 2,711]

Antoine Walker was a star player on a team... You are telling me Scottie Pippin wasn't 10x the player Antoine Walker could dream about?

 

Star player on a championship team, sure, i agree. But Pippin carried the team during the retirement and kept up the #s...

 

Edit: "Michael Jordan retired before the 1993–94 season, and in his absence Pippen emerged from Jordan's shadow. That year, he earned All-Star Game MVP honors and led the Bulls in scoring, assists, and blocks, and the league in steals, averaging 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, and 0.8 blocks per game, while shooting 49.1% from the field and a career-best 32% from the 3-point line. For his efforts, he earned the first of three straight All-NBA First Team nods, and he finished third in MVP voting. The Bulls finished the season with 55 wins, only two fewer than the year before."

 

-Wiki...

 

So 3rd in MVP voting, team had same record, Pippin 1st team all star and all star MVP...

 

 

What say you Newbie?

 

Well said, Scottie was underrated, not overrated.

 

Scottie was also the real first hybrid type of player for the new era. Big dude who could handle it, play amazing D, shoot, rebound, and dish it. Complete package.

[kutulu 1,561]

Well said, Scottie was underrated, not overrated.

 

Scottie was also the real first hybrid type of player for the new era. Big dude who could handle it, play amazing D, shoot, rebound, and dish it. Complete package.

 

Yeah, but he screwed the pooch when he refused to play in game three. Forever, tainted.

[parrot 789]

Well said, Scottie was underrated, not overrated.

 

Scottie was also the real first hybrid type of player for the new era. Big dude who could handle it, play amazing D, shoot, rebound, and dish it. Complete package.

 

Are we not counting Magic because of his defense?

[DankNuggs 305]

Are we not counting Magic because of his defense?

Magic wasn't a prototype hybrid player, he was a one of a kind...

[parrot 789]

Magic wasn't a prototype hybrid player, he was a one of a kind...

 

True dat. But the description fits pretty well.

[WhiteWonder 2,207]

 

Is there really a difference of Kevin Garnett (or Melo/Howard/CP3) demading a trade out of Minnesota to a contender (with other good players) than it is a Free Agent signing with a contender with another really good player? The real answer is No, of course not.

 

The anti-Lebron crowd doesn't think with their mind, they think with their emotions. Like women.

 

There is a difference imo. A fairly big difference. If you request a trade, as KG did after 12 seasons in Minnesota, you are still leaving it up to the front office and whatever teams want to trade for you. After 12 seasons, he was fed up with poor management in Minnesota and wanted a change. He was traded to the worst team in the NBA where the only change they had made was adding Ray Allen (another 30-something).

 

The reason I dislike Lebron is because I don't believe groups of elite players should be getting together during free agency and deciding where they would all like to play together. I would indeed have more respect for Lebron had he simply asked for a trade and accepted where he was shipped to.

 

Plus, the debacle that was the decision was absolutely retarded. As was the Miami big three introduction to fans. Did you see KG or CP3 or whoever holding an elaborate TV spectacle for being traded?

 

I'm also not a fan of young guys asking for trades. I do think they need to give it a certain amount of time rather than saying "nah, you know what? trade me to a contender so i dont have to work as hard"

 

The only thing you just proved was that LBJ is better than Garnett as LBJ made if further with the same type of supporting casts. Both played over 7 years with their original team and gave it a try with the team that drafted them.

 

Lebron played 7 on the button. Garnett played 12

 

i could get into a lengthy debate about their supporting casts. I believe Lebron had far better casts of actual young, athletic players. And another major difference? Cleveland continued to retool each year in an attempt to appease Lebron. There was only 1 season Minnesota made a real effort to surround Kg with players capable of helping.

 

 

 

Yup, same kind of salary cap. Its the exact same.

 

And Lebron extended once in Cleveland from his rookie contract and then after that was over took less money by going to Miami not more. How is that greedy?

 

It's a different time. It's a different NBA. Its not just a different Lebron James folks. Smarten up.

 

 

again, i wouldnt call Lebron greedy, i just think he took the easiest way out.

 

Put them on the 2009 Cleveland Cavs instead of Mo Williams and Zyrunas Illgaskus and Lebron is still in Cleveland going for a threepeat. Cleveland couldn't surrond LeBron with guys like that. He gave then 7 years to to do it, they didn't, so he moved on.

 

I think we agree that San Antonio does it the right way. the thing is, guys like Manu and Parker are few and far between. Guys who are amazing players but not considered "stars" and don't need the minutes and shot attempts of a Lebron, Wade, Melo, etc.

 

Very hard to find those types of guys. Take those two and put them with any top level superstar and that team would be a title winner.

[IGotWorms 3,416]

I'm super excited for the Thunder/Spurs series, though part of me suspects the Spurs will win the series easily. They're playing fantastic AND they are so much more experienced than OKC.

 

While the talent level may be roughly equal, Popovich is by far the best coach in the league and Duncan, Ginobilo, et al know how to win championships.

 

But I'll be rooting for the young guns.

[WhiteWonder 2,207]

I'm super excited for the Thunder/Spurs series, though part of me suspects the Spurs will win the series easily. They're playing fantastic AND they are so much more experienced than OKC.

 

While the talent level may be roughly equal, Popovich is by far the best coach in the league and Duncan, Ginobilo, et al know how to win championships.

 

But I'll be rooting for the young guns.

 

if OKC goes cold with their jumpers, the Spurs will handle them easily.

 

it's best player vs best team

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

That's one of the reasons Bird retired. The expansion of the league had diluted the talent level to the point that the bad teams were REALLY bad. And I think it was that way for a number of years after he retired. But with the improvement of international players I feel that the dilution is much less than it was back then. You might not get quite the same level of team as the Celtics/Lakers/Pistons had in that era but there are some VERY good teams that would give those teams a run for their money in todays NBA.

 

Let's correct some things here:

1. Bird retired because his body broke down. He could not do it anymore. Larry Bird would have taken 4 other schmucks off the street and still thought that he could beat the Lakers. That was his personality.

 

2. Bird was not just some guy who needed Parish & McHale to win. In his first season with the Celts, they won 61 games after winning 29 the year before. That was without Parish & McHale. They won the title the next season during McHale's rookie season when McHale brought them 8.5 ppg and 3.5 rpg in the playoffs.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

Let's correct some things here:

1. Bird retired because his body broke down. He could not do it anymore. Larry Bird would have taken 4 other schmucks off the street and still thought that he could beat the Lakers. That was his personality.

 

2. Bird was not just some guy who needed Parish & McHale to win. In his first season with the Celts, they won 61 games after winning 29 the year before. That was without Parish & McHale. They won the title the next season during McHale's rookie season when McHale brought them 8.5 ppg and 3.5 rpg in the playoffs.

 

I think it was ESPN's 30 on 30 show about Magic vs Bird that chronicled their rivalry from college thru the pros that did an excellent job covering all of it, and it was clearly Bird's body giving up on him. Arguably the best all-around player ever.

[cyclone24 1,836]

 

I think it was ESPN's 30 on 30 show about Magic vs Bird that chronicled their rivalry from college thru the pros that did an excellent job covering all of it, and it was clearly Bird's body giving up on him. Arguably the best all-around player ever.

 

 

Agreed. Jackie Macmullens book "When the game was ours" is excellent.........good bits about the Bird? Magic rivalry......for you hillbillys on here that can read.

[KSB2424 3,087]

 

Lebron played 7 on the button. Garnett played 12

 

 

I specifically remember listening to an interview of KG after the Celtics won the title a reporter was asking him about winning other titles and the age of the players on the Celtics. KG said something like (I'm paraphrasing) "I loved the time I was in Minnesota yada yada, but feeling this now, I wish I would've left sooner and not stayed so long."

 

Lebron simply didn't make the mistake KG made. HTH

[Strike 4,084]

Let's correct some things here:

1. Bird retired because his body broke down. He could not do it anymore. Larry Bird would have taken 4 other schmucks off the street and still thought that he could beat the Lakers. That was his personality.

 

2. Bird was not just some guy who needed Parish & McHale to win. In his first season with the Celts, they won 61 games after winning 29 the year before. That was without Parish & McHale. They won the title the next season during McHale's rookie season when McHale brought them 8.5 ppg and 3.5 rpg in the playoffs.

 

Certainly his body was a large part of it. But he also didn't like traveling to cities with horrible teams and trying to get pumped up to play what was essentially a minor league team. Was it the only factor? Of course not. It was a contributing factor, hence the reason I said it was ONE of the reasons he retired.

 

And look, I love Bird. He and Magic are my two all time favorite players. Sitting behind me in my office is a limited edition print signed by both Magic and Bird. It's the only piece of sports memorabilia I own. So I know how good Bird was.