War imminent as Russia masses troops at East Ukraine border

[NewbieJr 541]

this never would have happened if Obama didn't wear mom jeans!

Or use a teleprompter

[paulinstl 296]

After having read one and a half pages of this thread, I think I lost about 50 IQ points.

[Googballz 39]

This is probably a ditzy question, but I'll go for it

 

Is there historical parallel to the vast majority of a people in a land wanting to be annexed by a nation (unless propaganda in full swing is giving that impression) while it's unwise and commitment breaking to let it happen?

 

 

Crimea was heavily against being annexed by Russia not too long ago. It's amazing what being occupied by Russian troops and having Russians run a vote will do for the popularity of Russia.

[Googballz 39]

Relax America, Joe Biden just put the fear of America into Putin.

 

http://wapo.st/OsYQvo

[phillybear 366]

This is probably a ditzy question, but I'll go for it

 

Is there historical parallel to the vast majority of a people in a land wanting to be annexed by a nation (unless propaganda in full swing is giving that impression) while it's unwise and commitment breaking to let it happen?

 

 

 

Kim Jon Un Rodman just won 100% of the vote in North Korea, and he had much less military presence in the voting booths than Russia did in Crimea.

 

You have to realize, the voting was rigged from the start. The referendum had two questions: should Crimea declare independence from Ukraine? Should Crimea become part of Russia?

 

Where was the Remain part of Ukraine option?

 

Basically, 60% of Crimea is self identified as pro-Russia, yet they got, what, 95% of the vote? What do you think happened? All we know is that international media is reporting that thousands of Crimeans are fleeing into mainland Ukraine daily in anticipation of the future.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

Only a fool would think that "vote" was legitimate

[The Moz 71]

A simple statement a while ago would of ended all this. "you attack Ukraine - you attack the US" "an attack on Ukraine is a declaration of war against the US" there is no way Russia goes in as there would then be way too much risk for too little gain.

[Phurfur 70]

This is probably a ditzy question, but I'll go for it

 

Is there historical parallel to the vast majority of a people in a land wanting to be annexed by a nation (unless propaganda in full swing is giving that impression) while it's unwise and commitment breaking to let it happen?

 

On 19 February 1954, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union issued a decree transferring the Crimean Oblast from the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.[25][26] The transfer of the Crimean Oblast to Ukraine has been described as a "symbolic gesture," marking the 300th anniversary of Ukraine becoming a part of the Russian Empire.[27][28] The General Secretary of the Communist Party in Soviet Union at the time was Ukrainian native Nikita Khrushchev.

.

.

.

With the collapse of the Soviet Union, Crimea became part of the newly independent Ukraine, which led to tensions between Russia and Ukraine.[nb 1] With the Black Sea Fleet based on the peninsula, worries of armed skirmishes were occasionally raised. Crimean Tatars began returning from exile and resettling in Crimea.

 

On 26 February 1992, the Verkhovniy Sovet (the Crimean parliament) renamed the ASSR the Republic of Crimea and proclaimed self-government on 5 May 1992[31][32] (which was yet to be approved by a referendum held 2 August 1992[33]) and passed the first Crimean constitution the same day.[33] On 6 May 1992 the same parliament inserted a new sentence into this constitution that declared that Crimea was part of Ukraine.[33]

On 19 May, Crimea agreed to remain part of Ukraine and annulled its proclamation of self-government but Crimean Communists forced the Ukrainian government to expand on the already extensive autonomous status of Crimea.[16]:587 In the same period, Russian president Boris Yeltsin and Ukrainian President Leonid Kravchuk agreed to divide the former Soviet Black Sea Fleet between Russia and the newly formed Ukrainian Navy.[34]

On 14 October 1993, the Crimean parliament established the post of President of Crimea and agreed on a quota of Crimean Tatars represented in the Council of 14. However, political turmoil continued. Amendments[clarification needed] to the constitution eased the conflict,[citation needed] but on 17 March 1995, the parliament of Ukraine intervened, scrapping the Crimean Constitution and removing Yuriy Meshkov (the President of Crimea) along with his office for his actions against the state and promoting integration with Russia.[35] After an interim constitution, the current constitution was put into effect, changing the territory's name to the Autonomous Republic of Crimea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#In_the_Soviet_Union

[IGotWorms 4,060]

A simple statement a while ago would of ended all this. "you attack Ukraine - you attack the US" "an attack on Ukraine is a declaration of war against the US" there is no way Russia goes in as there would then be way too much risk for too little gain.

And what if Russia calls your bluff?

[The Moz 71]

And what if Russia calls your bluff?

 

And what if Russia calls your bluff?

Russia seems at least a little less nuts than China -- has china ever called our bluff regarding Taiwan? And China has a much more legit beef with that than Russia with Ukraine.

 

That said it's too late for a statement like that now as Putin seems to of flipped a switch and gone back to his KG days this time in public. I still very much doubt he does anything even if we did.

 

Right now I would make the statement that if Russia moves into Ukraine (aside from where they are now) it is an act of war against the USA.

 

What I would do is re start the whole missle defense shield stuff in Poland as well as other countries even if it just ends up as talk (as personally it think it would be a giant waste of money anyway) - The talk alone would be a big fock you to Russia.

[MedStudent 56]

 

 

Right now I would make the statement that if Russia moves into Ukraine (aside from where they are now) it is an act of war against the USA.

 

 

No fucken way do I want our boys getting killed for Ukraine sovreignty. Defend our allies yes but Not the Ukraine. They just had a coup that we support only because it's leaders want to be closer to the west. That government is as legitimate as Crimea voting to secede from the Ukraine. Just stay the fock out of the mess and hit them with harsher economic sanctions than the bs ones we have set so far.

[The Moz 71]

No fucken way do I want our boys getting killed for Ukraine sovreignty. Defend our allies yes but Not the Ukraine. They just had a coup that we support only because it's leaders want to be closer to the west. That government is as legitimate as Crimea voting to secede from the Ukraine. Just stay the fock out of the mess and hit them with harsher economic sanctions than the bs ones we have set so far.

I care little about Ukraine - I care a lot about our word. We gave Ukraine our word we would protect them - if we back down and let Russia do whatever we come off as weak, not worthy of trust, and nothing but talk.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

No fucken way do I want our boys getting killed for Ukraine sovreignty. Defend our allies yes but Not the Ukraine. They just had a coup that we support only because it's leaders want to be closer to the west. That government is as legitimate as Crimea voting to secede from the Ukraine. Just stay the fock out of the mess and hit them with harsher economic sanctions than the bs ones we have set so far.

To be honest, heads up, us vs Russia in their neighborhood, I don't think we win that war.

[Mungwater 597]

To be honest, heads up, us vs Russia in their neighborhood, I don't think we win that war.

Ground war would be tough, the initial bombing and invasion would be horrible on the russians, not a good way to win the hearts and minds that you need to win a war.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

Ground war would be tough, the initial bombing and invasion would be horrible on the russians, not a good way to win the hearts and minds that you need to win a war.

Yeah, but they've proven pretty stoic about their whole country being leveled a few times in the past...

[BunnysBastatrds 2,540]

Russia reneged on Crimea, we reneg on ukraine missile defense system. Lets get this protective shield back in place immediately.

 

Lets start full scale deep well fracking natural gas and export to europe, which will help us assert our energy independance, and take a huge dent into russias pocketbook.

 

The new cold war is energy production and independance. I'd also start full scale nuclear powerplant approvals across the country.

The race for energy is on. And not green energy.

[Mungwater 597]

Yeah, but they've proven pretty stoic about their whole country being leveled a few times in the past...

Big concern would be how Iran reacts, this could get nasty.. Israel then too

 

Fock this, just wish we'd worry about ourselves.

[GobbleDog 1,006]

I don't think Putin goes any further. This just fell in his lap. It's tough to re-draw borders in today's world and Putin had the perfect storm to do it. Ukraine President kicked out and pro-Russian Crimea secedes (at Putin's urging).

 

Expanded borders, ego lifted. If he presses actual war, then he really is insane.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

I don't think Putin goes any further. This just fell in his lap. It's tough to re-draw borders in today's world and Putin had the perfect storm to do it. Ukraine President kicked out and pro-Russian Crimea secedes (at Putin's urging).

 

Expanded borders, ego lifted. If he presses actual war, then he really is insane.

I agree. They want Crimea for strategic purposes. While they would probably like to get any of those old soviet countries back, including the Ukraine, I think their main focus is on the importance of Crimea specifically. At least for now anyway

[MDC 7,661]

I don't think Putin goes any further. This just fell in his lap. It's tough to re-draw borders in today's world and Putin had the perfect storm to do it. Ukraine President kicked out and pro-Russian Crimea secedes (at Putin's urging).

 

Expanded borders, ego lifted. If he presses actual war, then he really is insane.

You sir are a Wilt Chamberlain type appeaser!

[GobbleDog 1,006]

You sir are a Wilt Chamberlain type appeaser!

Peace in our time!

[Phurfur 70]

Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton is ramping up her tough on Russia rhetoric while distancing herself from President Obamas tepid response to Russian President Vladimir Putins defiance of the west over Ukraine. Calling Putins annexation of Crimea an effort to rewrite the boundaries of post-World War II Europe, Clinton warned, If hes allowed to get away with that, then I think youll see a lot of other countries either directly facing Russian aggression, or suborned with their political systems so that theyre so intimidated, theyre in effect transformed into vassals, not sovereign democracies. Speaking at an event in Montreal Tuesday, the hawkish Hillary, who earlier this month likened Putins actions in Ukraine to those of Adolf Hitler in the 1930s put the ball in the Russian leaders court saying she would not like to see another Cold War but, thats primarily up to Putin.

 

Vision needed - As the critical confrontation between Putin and Obama over Ukraine, which one Republican leader has referred to as a chess versus marbles contest continues, Clinton urged visionary leadership, advocating a two-track approach toward resolving the crisis that included economic incentives and standing up for our values. On those incentives though, with 2016 in mind Clinton has to be cautious of offending the green end of her party, which is openly challenging calls for the Obama administration to loosen restrictions on the export of natural gas. Russias control over the vital commodity has thus far given Putin the whip hand over Obama in Ukraine.

 

Clintons recent rhetoric represents her latest departure from the much maligned re-set with Russia she once embraced as President Obamas chief diplomat. Despite losing her presidential bid in 2008 for taking a hawkish foreign policy stance on the war in Iraq, the Democratic frontrunner appears to be returning to those roots, but gently so, as she sets her sights on a 2016 bid.

 

[Googballz 39]

I don't think Putin goes any further. This just fell in his lap. It's tough to re-draw borders in today's world and Putin had the perfect storm to do it. Ukraine President kicked out and pro-Russian Crimea secedes (at Putin's urging).

 

Expanded borders, ego lifted. If he presses actual war, then he really is insane.

Putin will do whatever he wants because he knows Obama is weak. Nothing Obama says going forward will carry any weight and it will be met with laughter from Putin.

 

It is sad we have such an inept President.

[NewbieJr 541]

Putin will do whatever he wants because he knows Obama is weak. Nothing Obama says going forward will carry any weight and it will be met with laughter from Putin.

 

It is sad we have such an inept President.

What's sad is the two guys he destroyed in elections. That was the best your party had to offer?

[Googballz 39]

Big concern would be how Iran reacts, this could get nasty.. Israel then too

Fock this, just wish we'd worry about ourselves.

Israel is on its own with regards to Iran's nuclear ambitions.

[MDC 7,661]

Israel is on its own with regards to Iran's nuclear ambitions.

As they should be.

[drobeski 3,061]

I guess nobody's told putin that obama kicked bin Laden's ass karate style before putting 50 in his head

[GobbleDog 1,006]

Putin will do whatever he wants because he knows Obama is weak. Nothing Obama says going forward will carry any weight and it will be met with laughter from Putin.

Putin will do whatever the Russian oligarchs want. And I don't think they want war.

[MDC 7,661]

As Russian troops entered neighboring territory the president of the United States, in an address to the nation, expressed his deep concern at reports that Russian troops have “invaded a sovereign neighboring state.” “Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century,” the President said.

Referring to how Russia’s actions have raised serious questions about its intentions in the region, the President said, “These actions have substantially damaged Russia’s standing in the world. And these actions jeopardize Russians’ relations — Russia’s relations with the United States and Europe. It is time for Russia to be true to its word and to act to end this crisis.”

 

NBC News reported that, while waiting for the results of a European Union initiative, the administration and its allies are debating ways to punish Russia for its invasion, including expelling Moscow from an exclusive club of wealthy nations and canceling an upcoming joint NATO-Russia military exercise and that the President “and his top aides are engaged in urgent consultations with European and other nations over how best to demonstrate their fierce condemnation of the Russian operation.”

 

NBC also reported that “In the medium term, the United States and its partners in the Group of Seven, or G-7, the club of the world’s leading industrialized nations that also includes Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Japan, are debating whether to effectively disband what is known as the G-8, which incorporates Russia, by throwing Moscow out, the officials said.” Officials also said, “Russia’s pending membership in the World Trade Organization might also be affected.” However, “[t]he officials spoke on condition of anonymity because no decisions have yet been made and consultations with other countries involved were still under way.”

 

 

 

Sounds like it's being handled by adults.

[NewbieJr 541]

As Russian troops entered neighboring territory the president of the United States, in an address to the nation, expressed his deep concern at reports that Russian troops have “invaded a sovereign neighboring state.” “Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century,” the President said.

Referring to how Russia’s actions have raised serious questions about its intentions in the region, the President said, “These actions have substantially damaged Russia’s standing in the world. And these actions jeopardize Russians’ relations — Russia’s relations with the United States and Europe. It is time for Russia to be true to its word and to act to end this crisis.”

 

NBC News reported that, while waiting for the results of a European Union initiative, the administration and its allies are debating ways to punish Russia for its invasion, including expelling Moscow from an exclusive club of wealthy nations and canceling an upcoming joint NATO-Russia military exercise and that the President “and his top aides are engaged in urgent consultations with European and other nations over how best to demonstrate their fierce condemnation of the Russian operation.”

 

NBC also reported that “In the medium term, the United States and its partners in the Group of Seven, or G-7, the club of the world’s leading industrialized nations that also includes Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Japan, are debating whether to effectively disband what is known as the G-8, which incorporates Russia, by throwing Moscow out, the officials said.” Officials also said, “Russia’s pending membership in the World Trade Organization might also be affected.” However, “[t]he officials spoke on condition of anonymity because no decisions have yet been made and consultations with other countries involved were still under way.”

 

 

 

Sounds like it's being handled by adults.

Sounds like they are going to hit them where it hurts and not get dragged into a my--is-bigger-than-yours contest with a power monger.

 

THIS is why Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Googballz 39]

So anonymous sources say the "grown ups" are talking about what they may or may not do sometime in the future? How long ago did Putin invade Crimea?

 

I thought Obama already threw down the gauntlet by freezing non-existent U. S. bank accounts of a few Putin minions. I was sure that would put the Russians back on their heels.

[MDC 7,661]

So anonymous sources say the "grown ups" are talking about what they may or may not do sometime in the future? How long ago did Putin invade Crimea? .

Threatening to expel Russia from NATO, the G-7 and the WTC is pretty serious stuff right? This doesn't happen overnight.

[Googballz 39]

Threatening to expel Russia from NATO, the G-7 and the WTC is pretty serious stuff right? This doesn't happen overnight.

How would they expel Russia from NATO and the WTC when they are not members?

[Brad GLuckman 519]

Threatening to expel Russia from NATO, the G-7 and the WTC is pretty serious stuff right? This doesn't happen overnight.

Russia's not in NATO or the G7. They're part of the G8

[paulinstl 296]

Threatening to expel Russia from NATO, the G-7 and the WTC is pretty serious stuff right? This doesn't happen overnight.

 

It probably would take time. Time that Obama don't have.

[NewbieJr 541]

Could there be another Nobel Prize coming for Obama? I wouldn't be surprised.

[MDC 7,661]

How would they expel Russia from NATO and the WTC when they are not members?

You'll have to ask George Bush. Those comments were from his admin when Russia invaded Georgia. He never followed through on any of it and Russia wasn't hit with any sanctions either despite 1,000 deaths in Georgia vs none in the Ukraine this far.

 

[IGotWorms 4,060]

How would they expel Russia from NATO and the WTC when they are not members?

Expel from G8, deny admission to WTO. HTH

[Googballz 39]

You'll have to ask George Bush. Those comments were from his admin when Russia invaded Georgia. He never followed through on any of it and Russia wasn't hit with any sanctions either despite 1,000 deaths in Georgia vs none in the Ukraine this far.

I don't see where they said anything about expelling Russia from NATO or the WTO.

 

Those are your words.

[MDC 7,661]

I don't see where they said anything about expelling Russia from NATO or the WTO.

 

Those are your words.

I'm mostly I retested in exposing the hypocrisy of the crybaby partisans on this site.

 

Mission Accomplished!