Charlottesville judge rules Confederate statues will stay...

[posty 2,848]

https://wtop.com/virginia/2019/09/charlottesville-judge-rules-confederate-statues-will-stay/

A judge in Charlottesville, Virginia has ruled the controversial statues to Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee and Gen. Stonewall Jackson must stay.

More than two years after the Feb. 2017 vote by the Charlottesville City Council to remove the statue of Lee, which prompted a lawsuit against the city and was the impetus for what eventually became a deadly white nationalist rally, Circuit Court Judge Richard Moore ruled the memorials can’t be touched.

“Even though the city wants to remove the statues, the judge said it can’t,” said reporter Hawes Spencer, who was in the courtroom during Wednesday’s first day of the civil trial.

Virginia law bans the removal or movement of war memorials erected in a locality.

“The judge’s opinion was not about the propriety or the goodness of having the statues in the downtown area,” Spencer said. “The judge’s opinion was simply about the fact that Virginia law makes it illegal to move them or encroach upon them.”

Spencer said the judge said the statute preserving war memorials has been amended numerous times over the years, “and that the iteration of it now existing is more about historical preservation than anything else.”

In its defense, the city had argued preventing the removal of the statues violated the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment by sending a racist message to people of color.

The judge’s ruling “really took the rug out from under the city,” said Spencer.

Spencer said Moore explained his decision: “He said whatever the original intent of the memorial, and we can’t really get into the heads of those who put these monuments to Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson up, today they exist as war memorials, and they are protected under Virginia law.”

Plaintiff Virginia Amiss, now 94, recounted walking past the statues on her way to school, and said she was “horrified” by the council vote to remove them.

Another plaintiff, Jock Yellott, got emotional during his testimony.

“I’m tearing up because it infuriates me that people would slander General Lee,” said Yellott.

Thursday’s proceedings will focus on damages, Spencer said. Each of the plaintiffs is seeking $500 in compensatory damages.

“The plaintiffs are going to try to show that people who couldn’t see the statues when they were shrouded in black tarps were harmed,” said Spencer.

Additionally, the plaintiffs’ attorneys are asking for more than $600,000 in fees.

[Herbivore 1,222]

how do we all feel about the plantiffs being harmed?

[RLLD 4,282]

5 minutes ago, Herbivore said:

how do we all feel about the plantiffs being harmed?

They weren't.....of course.....its just more sniveling from the other side of this argument.  Both sides of this"issue" are a bunch of focking retards wasting our time....

[Bert 1,129]

Just now, RLLD said:

They weren't.....of course.....its just more sniveling from the other side of this argument.  Both sides of this"issue" are a bunch of focking retards wasting our time....

[drobeski 3,061]

Good 

[BufordT 444]

Good

[Mr. Hand 482]

3 hours ago, Herbivore said:

how do we all feel about the plantiffs being harmed?

You actually believe a statue harms someone?

[Mike Honcho 5,543]

Quote

Virginia law bans the removal or movement of war memorials erected in a locality.

Have to see what happens, but without a deep dive, seems the Virginia law infringes on the locality's free speech rights.  

[Fireballer 2,693]

Being in law enforcemeent, i regularly see trends in communicstions/activities of groups like street gangs, bikers, KKK, and antifa. 

Although Im sure there will be appeals, this ruling will cause some people to absolutely lose their fuking minds.  Although many confederate statues have been removed from Nawlins, chapel Hill, etc, Charlottesville is the big fish.  Those statues were the cause for the right/left clashes that actually killed someone.  The hate from the right was on full display.  Charlottesville, or 8/12, is a huge symbolic rallying  point for antifa.  This should be interesting.

[Fireballer 2,693]

5 minutes ago, Mike Honcho said:

Have to see what happens, but without a deep dive, seems the Virginia law infringes on the locality's free speech rights.  

How so?

[nobody 2,926]

What a great victory for racism!

[Cdub100 3,996]

"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."

Taken from the Democrats playbook. 

[Mike Honcho 5,543]

7 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

How so?

Take the opposite situation, if the State Government mandated that every city had to erect a statue of Santa Claus as a testament to the awesomeness of his use of elf labor...that would be infringing on the cities rights to decide what the city wanted to celebrate/not celebrate.   Pretty much along those lines.   Also, remember I only play a lawyer on message boards, and just from reading the article that's where I would base my appeal.   

[Fireballer 2,693]

Theres tons of state laws that prevent decisions made by localities.  I cant say what the outcome will be, but it will cerainly be interesting.  This may end up in SCOTUS.

[RLLD 4,282]

25 minutes ago, Mike Honcho said:

Have to see what happens, but without a deep dive, seems the Virginia law infringes on the locality's free speech rights.  

Maybe, but do you mean removing them or keeping them infringes on free speech? Who's speech shall we infringe on today?

[Mike Honcho 5,543]

IF the state ordered either, remove the statues or keep the statues it infringes on the duly elected officials of the city to decide what the city supports/endorses.  This is about the cities right to determine what they support or don't.   

Mostly, I find this interesting from an academic perspective.  Personally, having read a little history of the origin of these statues, relation to Jim Crow, segregation and such, I'm not a fan...but having said that, on the list of my priorities for making the world a better place it's not a big priority.  I'm sure I could find a lot better way to spend local tax dollars than hiring lawyers to spend years in court for things like this.

[Hardcore troubadour 16,017]

No one to root for in this one. It's Eagles vs Cowboys. 

[posty 2,848]

2 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

No one to root for in this one. It's Eagles vs Cowboys. 

And any game with the New York Giants...

[Fireballer 2,693]

10 minutes ago, Mike Honcho said:

IF the state ordered either, remove the statues or keep the statues it infringes on the duly elected officials of the city to decide what the city supports/endorses.  This is about the cities right to determine what they support or don't.   

Mostly, I find this interesting from an academic perspective.  Personally, having read a little history of the origin of these statues, relation to Jim Crow, segregation and such, I'm not a fan...but having said that, on the list of my priorities for making the world a better place it's not a big priority.  I'm sure I could find a lot better way to spend local tax dollars than hiring lawyers to spend years in court for things like this.

So whats the litmus test for what the locality can decide when its against state law?  Are you specifically saying its a 1A issue? Remember, if something isnt specifically delegated to localities, state law applies.  Thats in Dillon rule states, which Va is.

[Mike Honcho 5,543]

34 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

So whats the litmus test for what the locality can decide when its against state law?  Are you specifically saying its a 1A issue? Remember, if something isnt specifically delegated to localities, state law applies.

To question 1 - When the states laws infringe on constitutionally rights given to all. I haven't looked it up, I'm just assuming that if a corporation get BOR protections, then an incorporated city probably gets them too.  

Question 2.  Yes, I think this is specifically a 1A issue and the state crossed the line. 

And again, whatever happens---millions of dollars will eventually be wasted on this----while I'm sure there are a significant amount of people who could be  helped  in much more tangible ways than not having to suffer the gaze of General Lee.  

[Herbivore 1,222]

1 hour ago, Mr. Hand said:

You actually believe a statue harms someone?

I dont think you understand who the plantiffs are in this one.  Makes sense..you are a knucklehead.

[bostonlager 2,678]

[Mr. Hand 482]

6 minutes ago, Herbivore said:

I dont think you understand who the plantiffs are in this one.  Makes sense..you are a knucklehead.

I understand. I don't anyone should be offended by a statue or what happens to one. You are the one that asked about it harming someone.

[Hardcore troubadour 16,017]

30 minutes ago, posty said:

And any game with the New York Giants...

That doesn't makes sense, moron. 

[Mike Honcho 5,543]

41 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

No one to root for in this one. It's Eagles vs Cowboys. 

I root for natural disaster in that match-up.   

[NorthernVike 2,100]

Good.

 

Trying to erase history is a bad thing no matter how you feel about it.   

[Herbivore 1,222]

44 minutes ago, Mr. Hand said:

I understand. I don't anyone should be offended by a statue or what happens to one. You are the one that asked about it harming someone.

I asked how do we feel about these plantiffs being harmed.  

[posty 2,848]

Trying to have a conversation with HT is like having one with Newbie when they get upset...  They both start calling you names...

[crackattack 520]

Why we celebrate traitors and rebels is beyond me. Want to put them in a museum....fine. These guys rebelled and fought against the USA. Why we sensationalize individuals that led a rebellion to secede and kill Americans is beyond me. They were traitors and nothing more. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,579]

7 minutes ago, crackattack said:

Why we celebrate traitors and rebels is beyond me. Want to put them in a museum....fine. These guys rebelled and fought against the USA. Why we sensationalize individuals that led a rebellion to secede and kill Americans is beyond me. They were traitors and nothing more. 

Is the Ukraine traitors? Or are they just a group of people who don't want to live under the same rule

 

[Hardcore troubadour 16,017]

25 minutes ago, posty said:

Trying to have a conversation with HT is like having one with Newbie when they get upset...  They both start calling you names...

Explain how your statement is not moronic. 

[crackattack 520]

7 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

Is the Ukraine traitors? Or are they just a group of people who don't want to live under the same rule

 

Huh? Ukraine is their own country? I'm not sure what you're getting at. The Ukrainians fought and broke away from Russia. Just like we did from Britain. If certain individuals are rising up and fighting with Russia to overthrow Ukraine, then yes, they are traitors.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,579]

52 minutes ago, crackattack said:

Huh? Ukraine is their own country? I'm not sure what you're getting at. The Ukrainians fought and broke away from Russia. Just like we did from Britain. If certain individuals are rising up and fighting with Russia to overthrow Ukraine, then yes, they are traitors.

Exactly what I’m getting at. The people in the south were rising up the break out from under the rule of the north. So I mean I guess you can call the first Americans traitors as well

[Herbivore 1,222]

43 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

Exactly what I’m getting at. The people in the south were rising up the break out from under the rule of the north. So I mean I guess you can call the first Americans traitors as well

the british can

[crackattack 520]

1 hour ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

Exactly what I’m getting at. The people in the south were rising up the break out from under the rule of the north. So I mean I guess you can call the first Americans traitors as well

No.

[crackattack 520]

1 hour ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

Exactly what I’m getting at. The people in the south were rising up the break out from under the rule of the north. So I mean I guess you can call the first Americans traitors as well

The people of the south were American citizens. They rose up against the United States of America. Full stop.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,579]

19 minutes ago, crackattack said:

The people of the south were American citizens. They rose up against the United States of America. Full stop.

and the people of the north and south were English citizens, They rose up against England

every succession is not about being a traitor

being a traitor would have been if the north and south were fighting the british together and then the south behind their back sided with the british

rising up against rules you dont agree with is not being a traitor

on an even more basic level, am I a traitor cause I am against abortion even though its legal, and what if all us pro-life wanted to succeed and start our own country where abortion was illegal, would that make us traitors?

 

[crackattack 520]

11 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

and the people of the north and south were English citizens, They rose up against England

every succession is not about being a traitor

being a traitor would have been if the north and south were fighting the british together and then the south behind their back sided with the british

rising up against rules you dont agree with is not being a traitor

on an even more basic level, am I a traitor cause I am against abortion even though its legal, and what if all us pro-life wanted to succeed and start our own country where abortion was illegal, would that make us traitors?

 

Dumb. They were American citizens at the time of the civil war. This was Americans fighting Americans. Period! The south wanted to break away. Period! They were willing to kill other Americans over it. They were out voted (the American and democratic way) and decided to rebel and be traitors against their own country. Again. Full Stop!

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,579]

26 minutes ago, crackattack said:

Dumb. They were American citizens at the time of the civil war. This was Americans fighting Americans. Period! The south wanted to break away. Period! They were willing to kill other Americans over it. They were out voted (the American and democratic way) and decided to rebel and be traitors against their own country. Again. Full Stop!

Dumb.  They were Russian citizens at the time of the civil war.  This was Russians fighting Russians. Period! The Ukraine wanted to break away. Period.  They were willing to kill other Russians over it.  They were under rule of people they didn't agree with and decided to rebel and be traitors against their own country. Again. Full Stop!

[Fireballer 2,693]

1 hour ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

and the people of the north and south were English citizens, They rose up against England

every succession is not about being a traitor

 

 

Still waiting for Crack to answer this...what were we until we became the United States?  We didnt have a transitional period where we were just phantom citizens of nothingness. We took up arms against the British crown. We belonged to them, just resided in a colony.