The Question That Remains Unanswered...

[JustinCharge 2,397]

i think its debatable that trump knew those documents existed.  plus, the credibility of the MSM and the justice system is so incredibly damaged that even if they had a sworn document detailing how trump knew he had those documents, republicans would refuse to believe it.  so there is now an incredible chance that if tried and convicted, trumps popularity zooms to the moon.  

its similar to when hitler was just a rabble-rouser but the second he was thrown in jail, his popularity became enormous and it made him unstoppable.  or when lenin was expelled from russia and then came back much more powerful.  

its a good strategy by trump if his goal to win and have a mandate to destroy the DOJ and MSM.

[nobody 2,053]

9 hours ago, Strike said:

1)  Punishing intent is not the same as NOT punishing due to cooperation.  Good job moving your goalposts though.  Very common in these parts so you fit right in.  But let's talk about intent since you went there.......

2)  What was Trump's "intent?"  You think he was going to sell classified docs to the highest bidder or something?  If not, why is he being prosecuted?

3)  Hitlery absofuckinglutely INTENDED to break the law.  There's no way to spin destroying evidence with a hammer, NOT turning over all the documents you were TOLD to turn over, running an illegal email server in your basement, and destroying the evidence on that server when caught. 

 

Trump didn't have intent.  I'm sure he barely knew what he was doing.  Not giving back the documents - likely out of incompetence - can be perceived as attempting to obstruct though.  

Hilary is just old fashioned guilty.  

You seem to think I care about either of these people.

[nobody 2,053]

6 hours ago, MDC said:

Doesn’t witch hunt imply that he didn’t do it?  

I think it's a witch hunt in the sense that if it was anyone but Trump, there would be no charges.

[GutterBoy 2,281]

3 hours ago, nobody said:

Trump didn't have intent.  I'm sure he barely knew what he was doing.  Not giving back the documents - likely out of incompetence - can be perceived as attempting to obstruct though.  

Hilary is just old fashioned guilty.  

You seem to think I care about either of these people.

He showed people plans to attack other countries, and when busted he told his lawyer to get rid of the documents.

He's dumb, but it looks like he knew what he was doing here.

[TBayXXXVII 2,135]

15 hours ago, paulinstl said:

And they turned them over without having to be subpoenaed.

LOL...

 

Left: They didn't know they had it...

Rebuttal:  Come on, yes they did.

Left:  Ok, they knew they had them, but they turned them over.

 

Gotta love leftist logic.

[TBayXXXVII 2,135]

14 hours ago, thegeneral said:

Deep breaths Tampa Bay! I do? 

Just calling out his bull crap...  and he knew it was bull crap.

[Engorgeous George 1,216]

Monty Python and the Holy Grail - Witch Scene - Bing video

[thegeneral 1,440]

1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Just calling out his bull crap...  and he knew it was bull crap.

Biden and Pence knew they had these documents?

[TBayXXXVII 2,135]

4 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

Biden and Pence knew they had these documents?

They ALL know what they have.  If they don't, then they're incompetent.  Take your pick... neither is better or worse than the other.

[thegeneral 1,440]

20 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

They ALL know what they have.  If they don't, then they're incompetent.  Take your pick... neither is better or worse than the other.

One is definitely worse. If you know that Biden or Pence had this information and are lying about it, where trying to mislead government agencies you should contact your Congressman or The FBI.

What Trump is in trouble for is the willful retention of these docs, specifically sensitive docs related to national defense.

[TBayXXXVII 2,135]

Just now, thegeneral said:

One is definitely worse. If you know that Biden or Pence had this information and are lying about it, where trying to mislead government agencies you should contact your Congressman or The FBI.

What Trump is in trouble for is the willful retention of these docs, specifically sensitive docs related to national defense.

Every person who ever served in the White House knows exactly what they're doing/taking.  If they don't, than the incompetence of it is way worse.

LOL @ willful retention.

[thegeneral 1,440]

Just now, TBayXXXVII said:

Every person who ever served in the White House knows exactly what they're doing/taking.  If they don't, than the incompetence of it is way worse.

LOL @ willful retention.

Yeah willful retention. Trump was told to give the stuff back on a few occasions instead he had his assistant moving them around the bathrooms of his place. They have tapes of him talking about how he didn’t declassify them (even just by thinking about it!).

In Biden’s case some docs were found while moving items, they turned them over and cooperated with the investigations. Republicans in Congress were going to investigate. Not sure if they did or where that is at.

In Trump’s case he was told he had docs, his lawyers mislead investigators and ultimately his place had to be raided to get them all back.

How do you not see how these are different?

[nobody 2,053]

59 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

One is definitely worse. If you know that Biden or Pence had this information and are lying about it, where trying to mislead government agencies you should contact your Congressman or The FBI.

What Trump is in trouble for is the willful retention of these docs, specifically sensitive docs related to national defense.

Isn't every classified document related to national defense?

[thegeneral 1,440]

6 minutes ago, nobody said:

Isn't every classified document related to national defense?

I don’t believe so.

[nobody 2,053]

Do you guys see how you're getting played yet by the way?

Remember the reason that the FBI suppressed the hunter laptop which showed how the big guy was getting pay for play kickbacks was they thought that the FBI investigation into Hillary cost her the election.

Now the blue team is trying to run the same play.  They want trump mired in a similar investigation to reduce his chances of winning an election.

[nobody 2,053]

2 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

I don’t believe so.

Well they are

[thegeneral 1,440]

12 minutes ago, nobody said:

Well they are

Ok. 

[thegeneral 1,440]

13 minutes ago, nobody said:

Do you guys see how you're getting played yet by the way?

Remember the reason that the FBI suppressed the hunter laptop which showed how the big guy was getting pay for play kickbacks was they thought that the FBI investigation into Hillary cost her the election.

Now the blue team is trying to run the same play.  They want trump mired in a similar investigation to reduce his chances of winning an election.

Trump made all this happen by being a dipshet.

[jonmx 1,615]

20 hours ago, paulinstl said:

Why didn't Trump just cooperate with The National Archives in the first place? Not one you have answered this question. If he had, there would have been no indictments. How can you fail to recognize this?

Because Trumo had zero obligation to comply.  Trump as President could take whatever records he wanted and no one has the authority to second guess that.  

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

19 hours ago, Strike said:

1)  Punishing intent is not the same as NOT punishing due to cooperation.  Good job moving your goalposts though.  Very common in these parts so you fit right in.  But let's talk about intent since you went there.......

2)  What was Trump's "intent?"  You think he was going to sell classified docs to the highest bidder or something?  If not, why is he being prosecuted?

3)  Hitlery absofuckinglutely INTENDED to break the law.  There's no way to spin destroying evidence with a hammer, NOT turning over all the documents you were TOLD to turn over, running an illegal email server in your basement, and destroying the evidence on that server when caught. 

 

 

Trump is, legally speaking based on what's come out so far, in the jackpot here. This is assessing that all the information being released is accurate. I'm talking about the hard information, not the commentary and analysis and conjecture in the MSM. 

The root of this is, and will always be, functionally speaking, a process crime. It's a very egregious overreach especially if you look at the end result - The administration of a sitting POTUS legally going after and attempting to convict his likely major political opponent, for reelection, in just a year's time. The Espionage Act was never intended to be used this way. 

But this is the law on the books. These are the rules in place.  It's extremely partisan, and that element of it is not fair, but the law was not designed to ensure justice. It was designed to ensure the law. 

Even if Trump manages to find a way though a Constitutional argument or prosecutorial abuse (both would be thin to find) or SCOTUS bails him out, the damage is done. 

The DNC and Neera Tanden want Trump bled out to be more beatable for 2024 POTUS, NOT actually go to prison. The list of crimes that would preclude someone from running and/or holding the office of POTUS won't include the charges here. Hakeem Jeffries and Jaime Harrison are both idiots, but can rub the two brain cells they have together to figure out that Team Blue's only shot at holding POTUS is by Biden beating Trump again in a rematch. And even then, that would still be a coin's flip of a chance. 

Here's the crazy part. If there is a future assassination attempt on Trump in the next year, the people with the most incentive to do it will be the RNC. Not the Democrats. Not the radical left. And if it happens, then the odds of Biden being under threat of assassination goes up. Not by the fringe radical right, but by those associated with the DNC overall. This might be the first time in American political history that BOTH major Parties actually want their  OWN front runners gone for good. It's entirely bizarre and shows how pathetic this has all gotten the past 7-8 years in this country. 

Here is where Neera Tanden is likely miscalculating

1) Trump could still find a way to win despite all this. The constant attacks on him for the past 8 years have essentially made most of the public apathetic. Even though, right now, this has more real legal teeth than Russia Gate, the two impeachments, the J6 hearings, E Jean Carroll, Stormy Daniels and all the rest. 

2) If Trump wins, the fallout and reaction from the radical left will be chaotic and burn this country to the ground. Trump's response will likely end up with shock troops in the street. If Trump loses 2024 POTUS, then America gets four more years of Biden, basically reduced to a human house plant at this point, being a front man for corporate overlords who will rob the piggy bank entirely. The death of the American working class is all but ensured

3) This might go too far over the DNC's strategy and this will all cause Trump to lose the primary to DeSantis. The polling numbers don't mean much at this point. The polling industry is busted. If that's the case, DeSantis wins and you'll have APCs and the National Guard in the streets for four years straight. DeSantis doesn't give a single damn about reelection. He will order "weapons free" on Antifa as soon as they show up with baseball bats. 

Any variation of Trump Vs Biden 2.0 for 2024 is horrific for America, particularly the working class. 

Trump is in a legally indefensible position right now. I'll say it again - There is close to no practical legal defense for him here. He's in the jackpot. More critically, even before this, the odds of him winning POTUS in 2024 were extremely low anyway. 

Trump won 2016 with a "quiet majority" and they are still out there, it's just IMHO that this time they won't be for Trump, they'll be for DeSantis in the primaries. The hard liners shouting now who bleed hard Red doesn't represent the entire base. 

Every time Trump does something stupid that will get dragged to SCOTUS, he risks their lives. It's clear the DNC and the Obama/Biden regime are egging on, through the activist MSM, to try to lure a fringe lunatic to kill a Conservative Catholic Justice. They aren't even trying to be coy about it. All of Trump's exhausting antics puts someone like Amy Coney Barrett in real danger. I don't think they'll rule in his favor here either, the legal deck is stacked way too far against him this time. That being said, there is real legal complexity with how the Espionage Act is being weaponized here. 

Trump is wrong here. He only has a moral point, but not something with real legal substance, with his Whataboutism. 

I'm utterly tired of his bullsh!t. I'm not the only Conservative that feels that way. And I believe that there are WAY more of us out there quietly than the current hard liners who will figuratively die on this MAGA hill with Trump. It's time to cut bait on the Orange Man. He could pull this off, it's possible, but the odds are far too stacked against him. Team Blue will cheat for 2024 POTUS if they have to do it again, and barring that, if Trump manages to win POTUS again, they'll probably find a way to have him assassinated. 

Wanting to move on from Trump, at this point, IMHO, IS AN ACT OF DEFENDING CONSERVATISM LONG TERM. The Big Cheeto can no longer effectively represent the interests of Conservatives any longer. We need a new standard bearer. We need someone who can give the GOP the easy win. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,135]

2 hours ago, thegeneral said:

Yeah willful retention. Trump was told to give the stuff back on a few occasions instead he had his assistant moving them around the bathrooms of his place. They have tapes of him talking about how he didn’t declassify them (even just by thinking about it!).

In Biden’s case some docs were found while moving items, they turned them over and cooperated with the investigations. Republicans in Congress were going to investigate. Not sure if they did or where that is at.

In Trump’s case he was told he had docs, his lawyers mislead investigators and ultimately his place had to be raided to get them all back.

How do you not see how these are different?

How do I not see how they're different?  Easy.  It's because it's political theater to make you think Trump is doing something no one else ever did.  Biden didn't just forget and then turn them over.  His people knew exactly what Biden took and said "Hey, everyone does this, but we know Trump is an azz and will fight us on it.  Let's send the FBI and DOJ into his house to take the stuff... oh, and when that happens, we'll say that Joe turned his stuff over... even though he really won't.  Our base will eat this up like it's free food and we may be able to con some Independent's." 

[gas 79]

1 hour ago, nobody said:

Well they are

You're an idiot.

 

No, not all classified documents are related to national defense.

[tubby_mcgee 691]

21 hours ago, Strike said:

1)  Trump says he was cooperating.  I guess we'll find out who is telling the truth at the trial, won't we? 

2)  The question YOU haven't answered is why did Biden have classified materials, that he only could have obtained illegally, sitting in boxes in his garage next to his corvette.  And why isn't he being prosecuted when his case is a slam dunk, cooperation or not. 

 

1.) False.  Trials no longer mean "truth" or "prove" or "find out"

Let's say my wife and I beat the fock out our of kids.  People blame us, assume we do, etc.   Then, we hold trial in our yard.  Folks can come and say things, etc.  Then, my wife and I go into deliberations...and we then come out and announce "not guilty on all charges".    Are we guilty? 

Or....

Someone goes to court for murder. There is some evidence saying he might have committed the murder.  He hated the person that got murdered. He threatened him, etc.    He didn't commit the murder though.    The jury deliberates, comes out...announces "Guilty".  Is he guilty?

2.) Things are different. Come on, he's Biden.  You can't expect the same thing for Biden.  And if Biden gives an excuse, that's obviously "truth" and "correct". If Trump gives an excuse, he's just "making up excuses".  Can't you see the difference?

 

[thegeneral 1,440]

1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

How do I not see how they're different?  Easy.  It's because it's political theater to make you think Trump is doing something no one else ever did.  Biden didn't just forget and then turn them over.  His people knew exactly what Biden took and said "Hey, everyone does this, but we know Trump is an azz and will fight us on it.  Let's send the FBI and DOJ into his house to take the stuff... oh, and when that happens, we'll say that Joe turned his stuff over... even though he really won't.  Our base will eat this up like it's free food and we may be able to con some Independent's." 

You are making a lot of assumptions but let’s put those aside.

Isn’t Trump by doing what he did something no one else did? This isn’t really up for debate and is the whole point. 

[nobody 2,053]

1 hour ago, gas said:

You're an idiot.

 

No, not all classified documents are related to national defense.

Yes it is

[nobody 2,053]

2 hours ago, jonmx said:

Because Trumo had zero obligation to comply.  Trump as President could take whatever records he wanted and no one has the authority to second guess that.  

Wrong.  

The president has to declassify first

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

It's because it's political theater to make you think Trump is doing something no one else ever did.  Biden didn't just forget and then turn them over.  

 

You are right in substance, but that's a different battle. 

More to point, despite that you are right in substance ( if we are only talking about that, from a pure "justice" standpoint, I am agreeing with you just on that point ) that won't change, from specifically a pure legal standpoint, that the two situations ( Trump vs Biden for documents) plus the Clinton situation are entirely different battles. 

In the eyes of the law itself, that Clinton basically danced around real justice and spit in everyone's faces about the Steele Dossier and corrupting the DNC and stealing the primaries from Bernie Sanders, is an entirely different matter altogether. It is incomprehensible to me that anyone who simply looks at the pure legal facts around Hillary Clinton and Russia Gate could even begin to try to defend her actions and behavior and criminality. But I know many radical leftists in here and out there will do it. But there's no point in attempting to address their stupidity. But overall, it's a different battle. It won't help Trump in court over these documents. 

There is a double standard, as it pertains to real justice. But this is about the law and only the law at this point. It's not what I want or probably you want, but it's what we have right now. Conservatives and Republicans can't look backwards. We have to look at how to salvage a win in any situation. 

Trump is like a general on a battlefield that just plain wouldn't listen to anyone else. Had to do it his way. Kept making enemies more than than he needed to do it. Wouldn't stop yapping his mouth. Had to attack everyone and everything all the time. Now he's wounded on the field and if the Conservative base and Republicans try to rally around him, to make his demise stretch out longer, then we all get massacred as well. 

The figurative saying is - "Is This The Hill You Want To Die On?"

Conservatives can't die on this hill with Trump. Team Blue controls Big Education, Big Tech, Big Finance, Hollywood, most of the MSM and most of Big Social Media. They control the teachers unions which controls the "feeder system" for new voters. They are entrenched in the largest cities and effectively have California's massive economy at their disposal. We don't have the numbers nor the leverage to stage this kind of fight for something that was, in part, self inflicted. 

This is triage. Trump is gutted and wounded and odds are he will drag the rest of the Conservative base down with him. He wouldn't stand on that hill with us, just for the sake of doing the right thing, so we shouldn't bunker up on that hill with him either. 

If Trump wins the primary, odds are that he loses to Biden in a general election. Four more years of Biden will all but ensure the death of the entire American working class. The stakes are too high to bet on the Orange Man anymore. If the American working class is crushed for good, all of you here who are parents, whether you vote for Team Blue or the GOP, your children will end up living essentially as slaves in a new corrupt corporate driven feudal system. The radical leftists in here are not part of the "liberal elite", they don't see that they are getting on their hands and knees and begging for the pathway for their children to suffer and die. They are that stupid. Conservatives don't have to join them. 

Trump believes EVERY HILL is the hill he needs to die on. So let him. This is NOT justice, and it's not entirely fair, but it's what's in front of all of us. Let's salvage a win somehow with DeSantis or someone else and just keep moving forward. 

[Strike 4,003]

12 hours ago, nobody said:

You seem to think I care about either of these people.

Yeah, you don't care but you're posting constantly in this thread. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,135]

2 hours ago, thegeneral said:

You are making a lot of assumptions but let’s put those aside.

Isn’t Trump by doing what he did something no one else did? This isn’t really up for debate and is the whole point. 

You're right there, I can't argue with your last line.  It's not up for debate because no other President decided to attack his predecessor.  Hopefully when Trump wins in 2024, he doesn't act as childish as the Democrats have over the last 8 years.... and that's saying something.

[thegeneral 1,440]

Just now, TBayXXXVII said:

You're right there, I can't argue with your last line.  It's not up for debate because no other President decided to attack his predecessor.  Hopefully when Trump wins in 2024, he doesn't act as childish as the Democrats have over the last 8 years.... and that's saying something.

You either don’t want to or just can’t understand the facts around Trump and this docs case as it has been presented.

Trump was a Birther about Obama, he ran on locking up Hillary. He’s a world class troll and giant man baby. He brings most of his problems on himself because he talks nonstop and people just slob his knob so why not I guess if in his platform shoes.

[TBayXXXVII 2,135]

1 minute ago, thegeneral said:

You either don’t want to or just can’t understand the facts around Trump and this docs case as it has been presented.

Trump was a Birther about Obama, he ran on locking up Hillary. He’s a world class troll and giant man baby. He brings most of his problems on himself because he talks nonstop and people just slob his knob so why not I guess if in his platform shoes.

This is where you and people like you are wrong.  WE (conservatives/Trump supporters), ALL KNOW Trump is a scumbag.  Where people like us and people like you differ, is that we know the people you vote for are scumbags too, but you don't, can't, or won't admit it.  I don't care what happens to Trump at all, but if the same standard isn't held for the people on the left, then don't come yelling at me that I'm the problem when your complaints fall on deaf ears.

You want Trump in prison, fine... the day before that, put Biden, Obama, and Hillary in prison for the same crime.  Otherwise, go cry to someone on your side of the aisle, because people on my side don't care.

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

22 hours ago, paulinstl said:

Like in the New York indictments, I think these charges, especially the espionage one are a too far a reach. However, once Trump decided he made the rules about how and when and which documents got returned, he officially was guilty of obstruction. Go ahead and think whatever you want about Hillary, but to compare the Biden and Pence document cases is just off-base. Neither one of them played it dirty like Trump once the documents were discovered. And that is the only reason he is being charged. 

 

If it's going to be Trump vs Biden 2.0 in 2024, there is ZERO doubt in my mind that the general election will NOT be a "Free And Fair Election" 

Whatever people think of Trump and however they choose to vote, what happened with Obama, Clinton, Comey, Biden, Rice, DNC, most of the MSM, Big Social Media plus the DOJ, FBI and the various intelligence services against Trump is completely indefensible. 

If they are going to go that far, then there is no way that 2024 will be a free and fair election. If there's any indication that Trump could win, he'll be cheated out of it. If he manages to squeeze out a win somehow even despite having the system rigged against him, then they will likely have him assassinated.  The entire Steele Dossier / Russia Gate scandal plus the painful slow walking of the Hunter Biden scandal is proof of life that Trump will never ever be President again. They'll either beat him clean in 2024 using all their horses against him, cheat him out of it ( people can argue if that's either the first time or second time) or just plain have him killed. 

There is ZERO reason for any Conservative or Republican right now to openly support Trump for 2024 POTUS. He can't win, more than that, he won't win, and if he manages to "get more votes" that's needed, he won't be left alive long enough to enter the White House. Do the Conservatives and Republicans need to consolidate and make a stand against the "Deep State" elements here? Yes. But not this fight, not at this time and not on this hill. 

If you want to play the game that "one crime is less bad than another" , then do it. I won't. The attacks on Trump are not just attacks on him as an individual, it's an attack on an American citizen as a matter of principle. I am personally tired of that loudmouth narcissist mother f**cker. No doubt. But he's not always wrong when he says he's being politically persecuted and he's not always wrong when he says working class America will be the ones to pay in the end. I will not defend Trump the individual here. But I will defend, in principle, the actual American citizen.  Because if the "Deep State" will job him like this, beyond all measure, beyond all reason, beyond the scope of the law ( I'm talking about everything else beyond the documents case), then they'll do it to anyone. 

For the Conservatives and Republicans here - Trump will either lose from this bombardment and scandal, or be cheated, or be killed outright. All of you know it's true. And if you look at my threads and posts, nearly all of them, I am clearly a Conservative and have no love for the radical left. I am speaking out on what I see is here, not what I want or what is ideal or what is fair

For the liberals all the way to the range of the radical left here - If Trump gets got, in any fashion, at some point, your kids are going to be next. Not today, and not tomorrow, but that "cancel culture" list is full and everyone is written down. Your children are just scribed down a little further. Most of you, even if I disagree with you politically, probably work hard to give your children a better life and hopefully opportunity and choices. What kind of life will they have if they are denied the choice to be a Conservative without full open persecution? What kind of life will they have if the entire American middle class is ground into paste by the "establishment" What you feel about Trump doesn't change the fact that the moves against him are an attack on basic functional democratic principles. You can honor the principle behind someone being a fellow American citizen without honoring the shameless exhausting motor mouth grifter narcissist within them. 

I'm an old man now. There are still people this life that I love and that I have an obligation to protect. A duty to try to give them a future with hope. I do not want to see them burned at the stake as cannon fodder for this pointless gutless civil war that's about to kick off. 

For those of you who are "Anti-Trump" beyond all else, beyond all practical reason, that's your free speech and choice. But when all Conservatives and Republicans are wiped out , then who becomes the "new Right Wing" in this country? Some of you claim you are actually moderates. Do you think you will be shown any more mercy than Conservatives are shown today? Or your children?  If you have a political movement that is only fueled by hunting their "enemies", what happens when the demand for more cannon fodder exceeds the practical supply? You see the same issue with racism in this country. There is a bigger demand for racism than the supply, so a lot of it is just fabricated. What's going to stop "them" from doing it to your kids when it's politically expedient for them? 

For the Conservatives here, don't be angry at the radical leftists. Feel sorry for their children instead. They are waving their pom poms and dancing on their own graves. They are pushing the pathway for their own children to be massacred in the future. If that's their choice, let them. Some of the may live just long enough to see their own children and grandchildren lined up against a wall.  Pity them for it. 

If Trump wants to die on this hill, he can do it by himself. None of us need to join him. 

[RogerDodger 797]

2 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

This is where you and people like you are wrong.  WE (conservatives/Trump supporters), ALL KNOW Trump is a scumbag.  Where people like us and people like you differ, is that we know the people you vote for are scumbags too, but you don't, can't, or won't admit it.  I don't care what happens to Trump at all, but if the same standard isn't held for the people on the left, then don't come yelling at me that I'm the problem when your complaints fall on deaf ears.

You want Trump in prison, fine... the day before that, put Biden, Obama, and Hillary in prison for the same crime.  Otherwise, go cry to someone on your side of the aisle, because people on my side don't care.

 

[jonmx 1,615]

3 hours ago, nobody said:

Wrong.  

The president has to declassify first

By court precedent, his taking the documents was defacto declassification.  No one person or organization has authority to second guess or overrule the president. 

[thegeneral 1,440]

2 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

This is where you and people like you are wrong.  WE (conservatives/Trump supporters), ALL KNOW Trump is a scumbag.  Where people like us and people like you differ, is that we know the people you vote for are scumbags too, but you don't, can't, or won't admit it.  I don't care what happens to Trump at all, but if the same standard isn't held for the people on the left, then don't come yelling at me that I'm the problem when your complaints fall on deaf ears.

You want Trump in prison, fine... the day before that, put Biden, Obama, and Hillary in prison for the same crime.  Otherwise, go cry to someone on your side of the aisle, because people on my side don't care.

Well then you should accept what he did here was focked up and not compare it to what others did. It is not the same. It comes across as excusing it. It becomes the deep state, or he’s the victim, or he’s a danger to the system so they are trying to get rid of him, etc.

[thegeneral 1,440]

17 minutes ago, jonmx said:

By court precedent, his taking the documents was defacto declassification.  No one person or organization has authority to second guess or overrule the president. 

This is not what I have seen many legal experts say, former AG’s, etc. 

He has to take action to do this, not just take them and think it in his mind.

[jonmx 1,615]

10 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

This is not what I have seen many legal experts say, former AG’s, etc. 

He has to take action to do this, not just take them and think it in his mind.

That was not what thr Clinton sock drawer ruling said.  Simply by taking them, they were his.   Lots of wishful thinking by the deep state cheerleaders, but in a court which respects the constitution and equal treatment, this case will not go far.  

[Hardcore troubadour 12,745]

Thanks Bill Clinton! His socks are awesome! 

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

1 minute ago, jonmx said:

That was not what thr Clinton sock drawer ruling said.  Simply by taking them, they were his.   Lots of wishful thinking by the deep state cheerleaders, but in a court which respects the constitution and equal treatment, this case will not go far.  

 

You are making a fair point about Bill Clinton and his situation,  but it needs context. 

The Clinton situation happened in 2012. The PRA was amended in 2014.  ( Though a fair distinction is that amended PRA is still very vague in some areas)

There are some very large legal questions in this case and scandal. The way the Espionage Act is being weaponized here ( and it is, no doubt, being weaponized, I don't see how anyone can dispute that at this point) does come in conflict with the PRA. 

If Trump prevails legally, it will only happen through SCOTUS. And only likely on the grounds that the Espionage Act is, in itself, actually a violation of the current Constitution. This dovetails into some actual First Amendment issues. 

In effect, Trump only clears legally because of a failure of the PRA, not by his own innocence. If the recordings exist as has been claimed and stated, with no other context, then Trump has given the prosecution all they need to establish intent. Which is incredibly hard to do otherwise. 

Legally speaking, put on my lawyer hat for a second, Trump is totally f**ked here. Certainly something else could emerge. Some other critical context could find the light of day but I would say it's close to a done deal here. 

If SCOTUS bails Trump out, it will only give ammo for the Obama/Biden/Tanden regime to try to use the activist MSM to go into a frenzy against the FedSoc Conservative Catholics on the Court. In effect, Trump isn't just dragging himself into the jackpot, he's risking the lives of Clarence Thomas, Kavanaugh, Gorsuch and Coney Barrett. There is no doubt in my mind that Merrick Garland and the DNC would be more than happy to see some Conservative Catholics on existing SCOTUS get openly picked off. There is no way to reload the Court without a resignation or death. And it only matters if the sitting POTUS is a Democrat at the time. 

There is close to no practical functional legal defense for Trump here in this specific situation and scandal. What does exist risks the Conservative majority in SCOTUS. Risks their very lives. 

jon, I respect you, I always have. I know you've stood alone many times against the radicals. And you know I lean Conservative and will punish the radical left at any turn when warranted. I'm telling you there is close to no escape here. Trump, legally speaking, is in the jackpot. If there was something feasible and high percentage to work in his favor, I'd tell you. 

[thegeneral 1,440]

14 minutes ago, jonmx said:

That was not what thr Clinton sock drawer ruling said.  Simply by taking them, they were his.   Lots of wishful thinking by the deep state cheerleaders, but in a court which respects the constitution and equal treatment, this case will not go far.  

Why did Trump return anything?