The Question That Remains Unanswered...

[thegeneral 1,440]

1 minute ago, nobody said:

She was protected by the DOJ.

I love how you guys think that DC doesn't run on favors.

Yes thank you. Speaking broadly as people are conflating Biden, Pence, and Clinton’s situations to Trumps. They are not the same, Trump’s actions are what got him into his situation as did Hillary’s in the case of the email server

Trump has said he will now, when he becomes Prez, stabling a special prosecutor for Biden. All the people crying about weaponization of the Justice Dept and getting all mushy about Trump being held accountable would applaud that like no other.

 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,745]

The Bidens are criminals and a special prosecutor should be appointed. We are beyond smoke at this point and this isn’t about classified documents bullshit. He’s been selling our country for decades, to our enemies no less. 

[nobody 2,053]

6 minutes ago, Strike said:

Bullsh*t.   But you know who NEVER gets punished?  A President.  They didn't even prosecute Nixon.  They pardoned him.  Nothing Trump did was a big deal.   He could have declassified everything they found if he wanted.   This sets a horrible precedent.  The dems love doing that like they did with judicial appointments among other things. 

It's absolutely not bullshìt.  They punish intent in these spots.  Leaks happen everyday all day.  If they brought everyone up on criminal charges because they left a doc out or forgot to close a safe, or forgot to close a CD when doing a low to high transfer of data, everyone with a clearance would be in jail.

[paulinstl 295]

14 minutes ago, Strike said:

Bullsh*t.   But you know who NEVER gets punished?  A President.  They didn't even prosecute Nixon.  They pardoned him.  Nothing Trump did was a big deal.   He could have declassified everything they found if he wanted.   This sets a horrible precedent.  The dems love doing that like they did with judicial appointments among other things. 

Quote

Court documents unsealed after nearly 45 years show that a federal grand jury in February 1974 was prepared to indict former GOP President Richard Nixon on four criminal counts for his role in the 1970s Watergate scandal that led to his resignation.

The charges, including bribery, conspiracy, obstruction of justice and obstruction of a criminal investigation, would have been for Nixon and his administration's attempt to cover up the break-in and wiretapping of the Democratic National Committee headquarters at The Watergate Hotel in D.C.

He would have been charged but his Vice President Ford pardoned him for any crimes committed while he was President.

[Strike 4,003]

3 minutes ago, nobody said:

It's absolutely not bullshìt.  They punish intent in these spots.  Leaks happen everyday all day.  If they brought everyone up on criminal charges because they left a doc out or forgot to close a safe, or forgot to close a CD when doing a low to high transfer of data, everyone with a clearance would be in jail.

1)  Punishing intent is not the same as NOT punishing due to cooperation.  Good job moving your goalposts though.  Very common in these parts so you fit right in.  But let's talk about intent since you went there.......

2)  What was Trump's "intent?"  You think he was going to sell classified docs to the highest bidder or something?  If not, why is he being prosecuted?

3)  Hitlery absofuckinglutely INTENDED to break the law.  There's no way to spin destroying evidence with a hammer, NOT turning over all the documents you were TOLD to turn over, running an illegal email server in your basement, and destroying the evidence on that server when caught. 

 

[paulinstl 295]

OBSTRUCTION

 

in United States jurisdictions, is an act that involves unduly influencing, impeding, or otherwise interfering with the justice system, especially the legal and procedural tasks of prosecutors, investigators, or other government officials.

 

Moving and hiding documents and destroying hard drives containing emails both fit this definition. You have convinced me that they ought to go back and charge Hillary too.

[seafoam1 1,879]

How about bringing up the actual president and how unfit he is for office. And confidential records he stored in his garage.  And this:

 

[TBayXXXVII 2,135]

43 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

Biden, Pence etc had these docs these unknowingly

BULL  SH!T... and you know it.

[paulinstl 295]

1 minute ago, TBayXXXVII said:

BULL  SH!T... and you know it.

And they turned them over without having to be subpoenaed.

[Mike Honcho 4,052]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

1)  Trump says he was cooperating.  I guess we'll find out who is telling the truth at the trial, won't we? 

2)  The question YOU haven't answered is why did Biden have classified materials, that he only could have obtained illegally, sitting in boxes in his garage next to his corvette.  And why isn't he being prosecuted when his case is a slam dunk, cooperation or not. 

He was the V..P. of the USA and a senator. Please explain on how he "only" could have obtained these illegally.

[seafoam1 1,879]

13 minutes ago, Mike Honcho said:

He was the V..P. of the USA and a senator. Please explain on how he "only" could have obtained these illegally.

The CURRENT DAY president of the US stored confidential records in his garage.

He also can't seem to walk without falling down. 

 

[jonmx 1,615]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

1)  Trump says he was cooperating.  I guess we'll find out who is telling the truth at the trial, won't we? 

2)  The question YOU haven't answered is why did Biden have classified materials, that he only could have obtained illegally, sitting in boxes in his garage next to his corvette.  And why isn't he being prosecuted when his case is a slam dunk, cooperation or not. 

Presidents are free to disclose and have whatever secret documents they want.   When it comes to executive branch, they are in essence kings.  It is kind of silly that either is being viewed as criminal.  Classification rules are made to bind lower level positions to support the president's will.  

[thegeneral 1,440]

1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

BULL  SH!T... and you know it.

Deep breaths Tampa Bay! I do? 

[thegeneral 1,440]

19 minutes ago, jonmx said:

Presidents are free to disclose and have whatever secret documents they want.   When it comes to executive branch, they are in essence kings.  It is kind of silly that either is being viewed as criminal.  Classification rules are made to bind lower level positions to support the president's will.  

Why does Trump’s former AG disagree with you?

[thegeneral 1,440]

1 hour ago, paulinstl said:

And they turned them over without having to be subpoenaed.

Yep.

The Orange Clown wanted to keep little trinkets and mementos and bullshet about them with people. Then he can’t admit he made a mistake gets people to bend themselves in knots defending him. They typically get discarded later.

The MAGA folks haven’t caught on to this yet?

[RogerDodger 797]

1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

BULL  SH!T... and you know it.

No, he really is that stupid.

[KSB2424 3,085]

2 hours ago, nobody said:

You guys are falling right into his trap.  He said why didn't Trump cooperate?  That was by design to make sure he shielded his beloved Hillary and Biden from criticism.

This 

And yes if have your own focking server, smash evidence with hammers but later....... "cooperate" its just fine and dandy.  No harm, no foul.  

[paulinstl 295]

Just now, KSB2424 said:

This 

And yes if have your own focking server, smash evidence with hammers but later....... "cooperate" its just fine and dandy.  No harm, no foul.  

OK, she should have been charged. I assume you think Trump should be too.

[RogerDodger 797]

1 hour ago, Mike Honcho said:

He was the V..P. of the USA and a senator. Please explain on how he "only" could have obtained these illegally.

As a senator you have right to know and see classified information as it relates to your oversight duties.  But, they aren't part of the executive branch that controls classified information.  So as a senator whether you had rights to see and know the classified information you should not have retained it and taken it home.  For decades.  As VP or especially POTUS you likely have the right to retain and even declassify.  

[Hardcore troubadour 12,745]

5 minutes ago, paulinstl said:

OK, she should have been charged. I assume you think Trump should be too.

Too late. The whole basis of our legal system is innocent until proven guilty and , and, AND equal application of the law. We fought a revolution because the law was not being applied equally.  You people seem to be ok with this. Not Americans. Just live here. 

[KSB2424 3,085]

8 minutes ago, paulinstl said:

OK, she should have been charged. I assume you think Trump should be too.

Normally in criminal cases you go by precedent.  No?  Or do we just willy nilly apply laws based on who it is (the crux of the whole problem)

Look, I don't know every nook and cranny of these presidential, documents, de classified yada laws in and out. But I have common sense.   I do know that it appears Clinton, Biden, Pence and others have done same to similar things.  This leads me to think its been going on for....ever. 

The left, the whole machine HATES Trump so they are going all in when in the past it was glossed over.  Surly you see that?  And Espionage?  Did he sell these documents to China or something?  It's just outrageous.  

And fock Trump....the dude is so over the top egotistical and childish sometimes.  However that's not a crime. 

[gas 79]

2 hours ago, thegeneral said:

This is all a Trump created disaster because he is incompetent. His buttkissers than do all this work for him. 

Is anything more fitting than him storing this crap illegally in an old, tacky bathroom. The writers have found their groove again this season. Bravo.

A crystal chandelier in a focking bathroom; so very very tacky.

I wonder if the MAGAts hurt a little when they look at those photos.

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

1 hour ago, paulinstl said:

Why didn't Trump just cooperate with The National Archives in the first place?

 

I've answered it before. At length. But I'll do so here again. 

Donald Trump is not stupid. But he's often ignorant. He doesn't understand the difference between "Being Right" and "Having A Point"  They are not the same thing. Not even close. 

During the run for POTUS in 2015/2016, Trump went on the full bore open attack. It was a good political strategy devised by Steve Bannon, Kellyanne Conway and mostly Mark Burnett in the shadows. Let Trump do what he does best. Don't try to change him, because you can't. Trump went after the establishment and particularly the corruption of the activist MSM. 

In these instances, Trump was BOTH "right" and "had a point"  When those two things are aligned, he's difficult to overcome. He literally just runs over people. His non stop talking and refusal to stop is like a total aerial bombardment. This was VERY EFFECTIVE against most of the MSM at the time. Because they are clearly "for profit media" driven by corporate interests. In that regard, I won't even give Fox News a pass on that one. They are also partisan ( but I don't believe they are as egregious) But complicit is still complicit. 

When Trump is in this fight over the documents. HE HAS A REAL POINT. SEVERAL OF THEM. 

1) This is functionally a process crime ( however he made it all far far far worse for himself, he dragged it all the way to potential obstruction) 

2) The Espionage Act was never designed to be used this way. It's a massive legal overreach (And one can argue it's an open attack on functional democracy since it's one sitting POTUS using the government machinery to attempt to prosecute his most likely opponent just a year away from now)  The way the Espionage Act is being used here does not logically line up with how the Presidential Records Act work, there are elements of conflicting law here. 

3) That there is a clearly double standard and an indisputable "witch hunt" against him  ( In an entirely separate matter from this, the collective of Obama, Biden, Clinton, Comey, Rice and others should be in prison for Cross Fire Hurricane . The FBI and US intelligence services openly conspired against a sitting POTUS . Hillary Clinton used tax dollars, no less, to have operatives lie to a FISA court. The previous administration literally spied on Trump and his campaign. ) 

Trump has many POINTS, but it doesn't make him RIGHT in this specific issue with the documents. The current law, even bad law, is still the law. It's the same principle that had the Brandenburg Test defend Trump in the 2nd impeachment. 

If Trump brings up Cross Fire Hurricane as an entirely separate issue, then he becomes RIGHT. 

If Trump brings up Cross Fire Hurricane AS PART OF A DEFENSE for this records mess, then he ONLY HAS A POINT

If Donald Trump Jr gets into a major legal scandal in public, and he tries to use the Hunter Biden laptop scandal as a defense, he is NOT RIGHT, but he does have a POINT. 

However, since Donald Trump Jr ( so far ) isn't in a huge major legal public scandal, when he says that if Hunter Biden was a son of Trump and did everything he did, the media and legal firestorm would never end and there is a clear double standard, then he WOULD BE RIGHT. 

At a purely human level, I can't blame Trump for his emotions if he's just tired of being persecuted. Even if he does things to bring SOME of it ( not all) onto himself. The overreach against Trump the past 8 years aren't just an attack on Trump as an individual, but once you consider he's a US citizen, then it also operates as an attack on our entire Democratic way of life. You can't have the FBI offer a million dollars ( in our tax dollars no less) to have someone they know is lying, to push that lie, and encourage it, to pick off the political opponent of their corporate donor overlords. 

However, like an example I used in a different thread, even if the "system" is out to get you, the rules are the rules. You have to pick your battles. It's just like when most people here go to work. Sometimes thing are unfair or even biased and even possibly corrupt. You could be persecuted by your manager or the owner of your company. But if you keep showing up late, and the contract you signed says you can be fired for showing up late, then you have to operate with no margin for error.  Even if everyone else around you can come in late and not get punished. 

Trump has no strategy. He just attacks. All the time. Sometimes, when you are both right and have a point, that will work out for you. But in most cases, it's not going to help you. 

A larger issue that this delineates is that there is a clear separation for professional politicians who are on their "second career" or not. 

Abagail Spanberger is a mostly moderate Democrat. Her name will very rarely enter the national daily media cycle. She had a career in the intelligence services BEFORE politics. She operates with certain limits and reason. Same for Amy Klobuchar and Katie Porter. I don't agree always politically with the three of them on everything , but they aren't total idiots. 

Gretchen Whitmer, Gavin Newsom, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and Nancy Pelosi are all purely career politicians. It's why they say and do so many idiotic things. They have no context what it's like to clip coupons, wait in traffic, clean their own toilets and truly suffer like a working class person a paycheck and a half away from being homeless. Harris slept her way up the ladder. Those like Whitmer and Newsom had family legacy into politics. 

Trump did not bootstrap his fame and wealth. He's just an older version of Chelsea Clinton. He was born into fame and status. This is part of the problem. He doesn't act like a reasonable person because he didn't have to grow up and live like a reasonable person. The average working class American has NO CHOICE but to be mostly reasonable about many issues, otherwise they'd starve to death. Oprah Winfrey truly grew up and fought for fame and wealth from nothing. She is widely known for treating her long term staff and writers very well. If you work for Oprah and are loyal to her, you and your children will always be provided for and taken care of and will be protected. Because even if I think she's corrupt, she does know what it's like to be in real poverty. 

I will not excuse Trump in matters where he only has a point. He needs to be right. If many of the issues he brings up are shifted just a few inches over outside of this current records scandal, then he is actually RIGHT. 

"Whataboutism" is only useful to highlight some basic principles. It can never operate as an effective defense. And is has ZERO VALUE as a legal defense. 

Some of the Conservatives and Republicans might say that the radical leftists will never extend that same standard to themselves. And that's probably true. My answer to them would be just because the radical left want to act like gutless trash, it doesn't mean we need to join them. I haven't been on this forum very long, but my impact is undeniable at this point. You'll see some of the radical leftists here try to circle around and attempt to attack me openly. I'm not giving them much a margin of error to do it. All they really have is ad hominem. Because it's all I am leaving on the table. If I started using "Whataboutisms" regularly to defend the indefensible, then I open myself up to be widely dismissed for hypocrisy. But for now, all they have is their hate for what they see as a crime of believing something different than them. In the same way, all of Trump's worst qualities operates to obscure the real frightening behavior of many ( not all but many) Democrats and their cronies to try to get him at all costs. Trump's narcissism and grifter mindset takes away from the REAL POINTS that he has about being truly politically persecuted on many levels that are indefensible and undeniable. 

It's much harder to constantly be vigilant about standards. But it's the same reason why no one really respects Tim or squistion or any number of the bad faith actors here. 

Conservatives and Republicans really need to hammer in the mindset that we don't have a margin of error. We need to operate and behave with the consistent thought process of being totally above reproach in all things. 

When you see timschochet take jabs at people to intentionally try to incite them. Personal insults, insulting their intelligence, lying about them, do you know what happens if he does that in real life? People will look at him like trash. And since he's said in public before that he "allegedly" is married and kids, then that means people will see them as trash too. Because that's what happens in real life. You act a certain way in public, it's not just mark against you, it's a mark against your entire family name. But since timschochet can hide online, he can say things he would never say to someone's face in real life. Which indicates the lack of integrity, the lack of character and the cowardice too. It's why no one here with actual integrity would respect someone like that. I'm sure some of the other bad faith actors would share a beer with him though. 

That's what I think silently when I see Wade Garrett spit on working class people like farmers or those who don't have a college education. I see him as trash. And if he has kids, he's lending the perception that his children are trash too. That means mostly when he does it, if he has kids in real life, I feel sorry for his children. 

Sometimes Trump is right, sometimes Trump only has a point, but many times, Trump says and does stuff that will make many people in the public, fair or not, look at Barron Trump like a piece of trash. It's not fair, but it's how it works. The only "true victim" here on a purely ideological human level ( not a political one) is Barron Trump. He's just a kid still. Not involved in politics. He had no control over being born or his last name or being dragged into celebrity status. 

Now OP, you could say this is just a random forum and we are all strangers. And so who should care. People with real integrity carry that integrity everywhere, at all times, in all ways. It's how real integrity works. You don't get a day off. You don't get a free pass sometimes. What Trump does or does not do justify all that is happening that is actually bad for America besides Trump. Just because some ( not all) of Trump is bad for America , it doesn't create a blank check for others to make it worse. 

I don't have a problem with Trump going to prison if it's the law. Even if it's seen as bad law. But the radical left need to beware of a real unspoken truth - That "cancel culture" can be flipped 180 at any time in the future, and when you are no longer the hunters, but the prey, don't expect much mercy. In this life, you usually get what you give. If the DNC and Team Blue HQ can only dish out hate, they should be prepared to get it back one day. Get a big spoon and sit down. If you can dish it, then one day it will be your turn to eat the whole damn meal yourself. 

[jonmx 1,615]

34 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

Why does Trump’s former AG disagree with you?

Because like most establishment types, they do not want Trump to run. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,745]

Disaster. Lol.  

[thegeneral 1,440]

8 minutes ago, jonmx said:

Because like most establishment types, they do not want Trump to run. 

Barr said he would vote for Trump over Biden

[thegeneral 1,440]

If you ever find someone who loves you like MAGA man loves Trump…never let them go!

[paulinstl 295]

Like in the New York indictments, I think these charges, especially the espionage one are a too far a reach. However, once Trump decided he made the rules about how and when and which documents got returned, he officially was guilty of obstruction. Go ahead and think whatever you want about Hillary, but to compare the Biden and Pence document cases is just off-base. Neither one of them played it dirty like Trump once the documents were discovered. And that is the only reason he is being charged. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,745]

Political witch-hunt , and everyone knows it.  Libtards can spin all they want.  The voters that matter don’t believe the bullshit. 

[gas 79]

LOCK HIM UP! LOCK HIM UP! LOCK HIM UP!

[jonmx 1,615]

6 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

Barr said he would vote for Trump over Biden

He also said he hopes Trump does not run. Biden is seriously one of the worst presidents ever.   

[thegeneral 1,440]

Just now, jonmx said:

He also said he hopes Trump does not run. Biden is seriously one of the worst presidents ever.   

So Barr defending him tooth and nail on the  previous indictment, saying he’d vote for him again…but him disagreeing with your take on this indictmentmakes him a deep stater out to keep Trump from the WH.

[taco breath 419]

3 hours ago, Strike said:

I answered his question.  Then I posed my own.  I didn't fall in to anyone's trap. 

sounds like youve fallen for it.

[KSB2424 3,085]

10 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Political witch-hunt , and everyone knows it.  Libtards can spin all they want.  The voters that matter don’t believe the bullshit. 

Every college law classroom and courtroom in America has, somewhere a statue or a picture of The Lady Justice.  We've all seen it.....the sword represents enforcement of law and order.  The scales represents the crime must fit the punishment (balance) and each side of the court case or ruling must be looked at equally.  The blindfold represents the impartiality and objectivity of the law and that it doesn't let outside factors, such as politics, wealth or fame, influence its decision. 

[paulinstl 295]

1 minute ago, KSB2424 said:

Every college law classroom and courtroom in America has, somewhere a statue or a picture of The Lady Justice.  We've all seen it.....the sword represents enforcement of law and order.  The scales represents the crime must fit the punishment (balance) and each side of the court case or ruling must be looked at equally.  The blindfold represents the impartiality and objectivity of the law and that it doesn't let outside factors, such as politics, wealth or fame, influence its decision. 

And we have some perfect examples of this, every single Stop The Steal lawsuit that Trump tried.

[Patented Phil 828]

2 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Why didn’t Hillary and Biden obey the law? Why weren’t they indicted? Trump may be guilty as hell but so what? If you don’t apply the law equally then it’s an injustice. But liberals are ok with it. Unless it’s black people being “disproportionately “ arrested. Then  it’s not about the law, it’s about justice. GFY.  Everyone sees through this. 

Exactly.  And it’s worth reminding everyone that Hillary’s classified information was hacked and fell into enemy hands.  Trump’s was not.

When it comes to Biden, Le Batard’s will argue that there was no intent on his part to circumvent the law, as if they can somehow see inside his brain. But at least that point can be argued.

this can’t be argued for Hillary. She most certainly had intent. She was warned many times about it. Trump in the justice department made the right decision not to prosecute her. You don’t indict a president or a presidential candidate for a process crime.  And if you do, you better make damn sure there isn’t even a hint of disparate treatment when the political parties are reversed.

THIS is the key issue here.  You focktard Liberals can call it whataboutism, ignore it, make silly attempts to justify it, or laugh it off with silly third grade level posts like we see from the usual idiots in here.  Honestly, I think a lot of Conservatives like me don’t even give a shitt anymore.  Our judicial system has been corrupted and weaponized.  And that is the worst possible thing to happen to a country.  Quite frankly it’s the death knell.  But Libtards don’t see any of this from their safe space bubble.  Just like they never saw a guy like Trump being elected.

On the Conservative side, we have been seeing  bias for years.  When it was confined to the MSM and educational system, it was a nuisance that was largely ignored.  But now that it has hit the Justice system, we’ve got a big problem on our hands. 

[MDC 5,912]

Doesn’t witch hunt imply that he didn’t do it?  

[gas 79]

LOL at the party of law and order pretending that process crimes are unimportant.

[Patented Phil 828]

30 minutes ago, gas said:

LOL at the party of law and order pretending that process crimes are unimportant.

LOL at all these aliases magically reappearing after several years off.  You Libtards are like cockroaches.

[jonmx 1,615]

1 hour ago, KSB2424 said:

Every college law classroom and courtroom in America has, somewhere a statue or a picture of The Lady Justice.  We've all seen it.....the sword represents enforcement of law and order.  The scales represents the crime must fit the punishment (balance) and each side of the court case or ruling must be looked at equally.  The blindfold represents the impartiality and objectivity of the law and that it doesn't let outside factors, such as politics, wealth or fame, influence its decision. 

The FBI-CIA and the Justice Department are political as crap.  They have interfere with every election going back to at least 1960 when J. Edgar Hoover blackmailed JFK with pictures of him with other women to force LBJ on the ticket.