War in Israel

[The Real timschochet 6,640]

4 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

I can't believe the amount of antisemitism in this thread.  It's completely absurd.  And it's coming from the same side of the aisle (the left side) that also claims THEY are not racists either. 

We've even got antisemitic Jews in here.  Holy Crap!

Link? The only antisemitism I have seen in this thread has come from the right (CDub and Casual Observer.) 

[The Real timschochet 6,640]

I have also seen a ton of Muslim hatred from the right in this thread. It’s really despicable. 

[HellToupee 1,715]

39 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Meanwhile the Israeli settlers in the West Bank are using this situation to indiscriminately kill Palestinians- again: 

https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2023/11/06/settlers-are-causing-mayhem-in-the-west-bank

This is why Israel and Netanyahu in particular do not have clean hands in this conflict, which is a point that Obama correctly made the other day. As  Americans we have a duty to call out injustice whenever we see it. 

Looks like it’s kill or be killed 

[The Real timschochet 6,640]

3 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

Looks like it’s kill or be killed 

Not in the West Bank. And really, not in Gaza either. 

[jerryskids 6,730]

52 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

It hasn’t changed, still a very nice area. But what difference does it make where it happened? 

I would not expect a violent protester to bludgeon someone to death in the ritziest parts of Phoenix, say, Paradise Valley or North Scottsdale.  I guess this doesn't surprise you at all though.  LA gonna LA?

I'm speculating it is an upper middle class SJW, you seem to think it's, I dunno, a gangbanger from Compton?  I guess we'll find out eventually. 

 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,267]

Why was it ok to hate the Nazis and not the Muslims? Same goal. Same brutality. There were many Nazi supporters in the US in the 30’s. They held a rally in a packed Madison square garden. Now we see anti-semite Muslims holding rallies everywhere, and we’re supposed to be ok with that. It’s weird. 

[jerryskids 6,730]

8 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Not in the West Bank. And really, not in Gaza either. 

True.  In Gaza they could call a cease fire, which Pelosi accurately called a "gift to Hamas."  So that Hamas can regroup, restock, and at a future date rape and burn more Israeli women and children.  Exactly like they said they would last week.

Good call. 

 

[RogerDodger 798]

The Real Dumbass in complete denial.  What's new.  

[Hardcore troubadour 15,267]

I think I get it. It’s ok to hate white nazis for wanting to eradicate the Jewish people, but we can’t have the same level of hate for Muslims, who are predominantly POC. 

[MDC 7,291]

Criticism of the Israeli government isn’t anti-semitism. Plenty of Jews are critical of the Israeli government. Support for Palestinians also isn’t support for Hamas.

Some folks are determined to turn this conflict into a partisan political football. Like every other issue.  

[GutterBoy 2,899]

1 minute ago, MDC said:

Criticism of the Israeli government isn’t anti-semitism. Plenty of Jews are critical of the Israeli government. Support for Palestinians also isn’t support for Hamas.

Some folks are determined to turn this conflict into a partisan political football. Like every other issue.  

It's stupid, but expected when you see who here is doing it.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,267]

2 minutes ago, MDC said:

Criticism of the Israeli government isn’t anti-semitism. Plenty of Jews are critical of the Israeli government. Support for Palestinians also isn’t support for Hamas.

Some folks are determined to turn this conflict into a partisan political football. Like every other issue.  

Why don’t you be a man and just come at me head on, ya twat? And maybe you ought to go read and hear what the people at these rallies are saying.  Nah. Just use your boilerplate troll.   It’s all you bring.  

[BuckSwope 654]

6 minutes ago, MDC said:

Criticism of the Israeli government isn’t anti-semitism. Plenty of Jews are critical of the Israeli government. Support for Palestinians also isn’t support for Hamas.

Some folks are determined to turn this conflict into a partisan political football. Like every other issue.  

Wait, you mean Isreal isn't a collection of people who are all alike?   Jews aren't all the same?  

Sheesh, next you will tell me that all Palenstinians don't support Hamas.  

[GutterBoy 2,899]

2 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Wait, you mean Isreal isn't a collection of people who are all alike?   Jews aren't all the same?  

Sheesh, next you will tell me that all Palenstinians don't support Hamas.  

As long as we can agree that all muslims are terrorists then I'm ok.

[MDC 7,291]

8 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Wait, you mean Isreal isn't a collection of people who are all alike?   Jews aren't all the same?  

Sheesh, next you will tell me that all Palenstinians don't support Hamas.  

Yes! And get this; There are mixed cities where Jews and Palestinians peacefully live together without murdering each other!  

Crazy I know.

[jerryskids 6,730]

57 minutes ago, MDC said:

Yes! And get this; There are mixed cities where Jews and Palestinians peacefully live together without murdering each other!  

Crazy I know.

Not many if any in Gaza City though.  I wonder why.  Probably the Jews are racist.  

[jerryskids 6,730]

1 hour ago, MDC said:

Criticism of the Israeli government isn’t anti-semitism. Plenty of Jews are critical of the Israeli government. Support for Palestinians also isn’t support for Hamas.

Some folks are determined to turn this conflict into a partisan political football. Like every other issue.  

Please describe for me "support for Palestinians."  

[Strike 5,422]

2 hours ago, jerryskids said:

Also as mentioned in a tweet above, Westlake Village is a pretty ritzy city in the LA area.  I had a customer there; I would go about an hour early for meetings and hang in a Starbucks, watching the uber hot milfs in yoga pants parade in and out.   

That was over 20 years ago though... I suppose it could have changed.  Or our killer is an upper middle class white SJW who learned no boundaries as a youth.

Somebody in the comments pointed out that the city is actually in Ventura County NW of LA County, and that it is "very strict with a good DA."  So hopefully justice will be served.

Westlake Village is beyond ritzy.  Upper middle class is almost lower class there.  Lots of celebs have homes there.  And unless something changes very recently it hasn't changed from being that way.  I grew up about 15 minutes south of there.

[KSB2424 3,148]

1 hour ago, MDC said:

Yes! And get this; There are mixed cities where Jews and Palestinians peacefully live together without murdering each other!  

Crazy I know.

Islam is the second largest religion in Israel Proper.  18%. of the population. 

On October 7th, Hamas were killing Islams who lived or worked in Israel.  As “traitors”.

[The Real timschochet 6,640]

6 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Please describe for me "support for Palestinians."  

Not to speak for anyone else, but I support the Palestinians having a state of their own, in Gaza and West Bank, free of Israeli security forces and without encroachment from Israeli settlers. 
 

More immediately, I support Palestinians who are not members of Hamas or terrorists  not having to fear bombing, starvation, death, ethnic cleansing. Especially children. And I really don’t care whether they’re sympathetic to Hamas or not. Sympathy doesn’t equal guilt. Guilt equals guilt. As for Hamas, anyone who took part or planning in the attack should die. Any member of Hamas who didn’t take any part in that should probably not die, but I’m indifferent as to whether they die or not. 

This is where my moral compass lands. If that makes me a “Palestinian supporter” so be it.  

[MDC 7,291]

16 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Not many if any in Gaza City though.  I wonder why.  Probably the Jews are racist.  

I’m not sure many Jews want to live behind a military blockade in what amounts to an open air prison. Can’t say I blame them. 

[MDC 7,291]

14 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Please describe for me "support for Palestinians."  

No

[MDC 7,291]

3 minutes ago, KSB2424 said:

Islam is the second largest religion in Israel Proper.  18%. Of the population. 

in October 7th, Hamas were killing Islams who lived or worked in Israel.  As “traitors”.

And? 

[jerryskids 6,730]

2 minutes ago, MDC said:

I’m not sure many Jews want to live behind a military blockade in what amounts to an open air prison. Can’t say I blame them. 

Open air prison... get that on TikTok?

Also the fact that the Palestinians would insta-kill them probably dissuades them.

[MDC 7,291]

Just now, jerryskids said:

Open air prison... get that on TikTok?

Also the fact that the Palestinians would insta-kill them probably dissuades them.

No, I got it from Human Rights Watch and the UN among others.

I don’t know whether Palestinians in Gaza reflexively attack Jews like bloodthirsty monsters. But I do know not many people are dying to live under military blockade. 

[jerryskids 6,730]

3 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Not to speak for anyone else, but I support the Palestinians having a state of their own, in Gaza and West Bank, free of Israeli security forces and without encroachment from Israeli settlers. 
 

More immediately, I support Palestinians who are not members of Hamas or terrorists  not having to fear bombing, starvation, death, ethnic cleansing. Especially children. And I really don’t care whether they’re sympathetic to Hamas or not. Sympathy doesn’t equal guilt. Guilt equals guilt. As for Hamas, anyone who took part or planning in the attack should die. Any member of Hamas who didn’t take any part in that should probably not die, but I’m indifferent as to whether they die or not. 

This is where my moral compass lands. If that makes me a “Palestinian supporter” so be it.  

Palestinians have been offered a two-state solution, I dunno, 6-8 times.  Each time they turn it down.  They want a one-state solution -- the dissolution of Israel.  They have been offered and have continued to be offered the chance to leave and avoid the destruction.  They either choose not to, or Hamas won't let them.

That's the "good" version.  The "bad" is Hamas and their sympathizers, whose goal is the eradication of all Jews.

You would teach terrorists around the world that if you want to rape and burn women and babies, you need only hide behind your civilians after you do it, and the world will come to your support.  So that you can do it again in the near future.  That's a pretty good deal.  For the people who rape and burn women and babies.

[KSB2424 3,148]

13 minutes ago, MDC said:

And? 

Is it not self explanatory?  

[GutterBoy 2,899]

5 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Palestinians have been offered a two-state solution, I dunno, 6-8 times.  Each time they turn it down.  They want a one-state solution -- the dissolution of Israel.  They have been offered and have continued to be offered the chance to leave and avoid the destruction.  They either choose not to, or Hamas won't let them.

That's the "good" version.  The "bad" is Hamas and their sympathizers, whose goal is the eradication of all Jews.

You would teach terrorists around the world that if you want to rape and burn women and babies, you need only hide behind your civilians after you do it, and the world will come to your support.  So that you can do it again in the near future.  That's a pretty good deal.  For the people who rape and burn women and babies.

Actually the current PLO president Abbas does want a 2 state solution and still pushing for it.  Hamas does not.

[MDC 7,291]

1 minute ago, KSB2424 said:

Is it not self explanatory?  

Well, no. Because it didn’t have anything to do with what I said. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,267]

That must have been some “open air prison”. . I wonder how they were able to build all those tunnels in such an oppressive situation? And have their schools teaching their kids to hate and kill Jews. 

[jerryskids 6,730]

10 minutes ago, MDC said:

No, I got it from Human Rights Watch and the UN among others.

I don’t know whether Palestinians in Gaza reflexively attack Jews like bloodthirsty monsters. But I do know not many people are dying to live under military blockade. 

An Israeli citizen with an Israeli passport is free to travel in and out of Israel from Palestine.

[KSB2424 3,148]

10 minutes ago, MDC said:

Well, no. Because it didn’t have anything to do with what I said. 

[MDC 7,291]

2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

An Israeli citizen with an Israeli passport is free to travel in and out of Israel from Palestine.

You know that most people who live in Gaza can’t travel into Israel to the West Bank and they can’t travel abroad right? They’re not allowed to have an airport or seaport there either. Unemployment is around 50%.

No surprise Jews don’t want to live there.

[MDC 7,291]

Just now, KSB2424 said:

Great point as always sweater vest. 

[IGotWorms 4,057]

2 hours ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

I can't believe the amount of antisemitism in this thread.  It's completely absurd.  And it's coming from the same side of the aisle (the left side) that also claims THEY are not racists either. 

We've even got antisemitic Jews in here.  Holy Crap!

I haven’t seen much other than from CDub and maybe one or two other righties.

Got some posts you can point to?

[The Real timschochet 6,640]

36 minutes ago, GutterBoy said:

Actually the current PLO president Abbas does want a 2 state solution and still pushing for it.  Hamas does not.

See this is problematic. It’s partly true but not entirely true: 

Abbas, like Arafat before him, has voiced support for a 2 state solution. Yet there have always been 3 conditions and 1 problem  to this support which Israel will not accept: 

1. The Palestinian Authority (Abbas/Fatah) wants 100% of the settlements on the West Bank occupied by Jews since 1967 removed. But some of these settlements are over 50 years old and you’re talking about the forced removal of thousands of people, some of which have sworn that they will die before they leave. At one point during the Clinton Presidency the Israelis agreed to remove 95% of these settlements but never 100%. The PA has always insisted on 100%. However, most long time negotiators believe that this problem can be settled. 

2. The Palestinians have always insisted on the Right of Return, meaning that anyone of Palestinian descent of any age can “return” to Israel and become a citizen of Israel. Given that there are many more Palestinians than Jews, this would inevitably result in Israel ceasing to exist, which is why Israel will never agree to it. And it’s this condition that causes people like @jerryskids to correctly point out that most Palestinians want a “one state solution”. However most long time negotiators again believe that this problem can ultimately be settled, perhaps by only allowing Palestinians of a certain age to return, or some kind of monetary settlement for lands lost (reparations if you will.) 

3. The Palestinians have always insisted on Jerusalem being their capital, for historical and religious reasons. The Israelis will never agree to this for historical and religious reasons. Negotiators have struggled with this issue and been unable to solve it, but the USA has tried to take a neutral stance by having its embassy in Tel Aviv rather than Jerusalem, until Trump changed that in order to make one of his biggest donors happy, the late Sheldon Adelson. Now we continue to pay the cost for that blunder. 

4. The problem, beyond these conditions, is that Gaza and the West Bank are not contiguous. Israel divides them, so it would be problematic to have a state of Palestine in which the land is separated. The British Raj solved a similar problem in 1948 by creating two separate Muslim territories out of India: Pakistan and Bangladesh. But that would entail a 3 state solution. 

5. The position of Hamas is pretty simple: Israel will never agree to any of this so Fatah is weak. The only way there will ever be a Palestinian homeland is to destroy Israel. There is a lot of sympathy for Hamas among Palestinians because they appear to be fighters, fighting back, etc. Many leftists won’t speak out against Hamas because leftists are sympathetic to Palestinians in general. But in truth, I believe that very few Palestinians, and almost no leftists, are so fanatic against Israel that they want to see it completely destroyed. That’s where I think Jerrykids and others get it wrong. 

 

[GutterBoy 2,899]

34 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

See this is problematic. It’s partly true but not entirely true: 

Abbas, like Arafat before him, has voiced support for a 2 state solution. Yet there have always been 3 conditions and 1 problem  to this support which Israel will not accept: 

1. The Palestinian Authority (Abbas/Fatah) wants 100% of the settlements on the West Bank occupied by Jews since 1967 removed. But some of these settlements are over 50 years old and you’re talking about the forced removal of thousands of people, some of which have sworn that they will die before they leave. At one point during the Clinton Presidency the Israelis agreed to remove 95% of these settlements but never 100%. The PA has always insisted on 100%. However, most long time negotiators believe that this problem can be settled. 

2. The Palestinians have always insisted on the Right of Return, meaning that anyone of Palestinian descent of any age can “return” to Israel and become a citizen of Israel. Given that there are many more Palestinians than Jews, this would inevitably result in Israel ceasing to exist, which is why Israel will never agree to it. And it’s this condition that causes people like @jerryskids to correctly point out that most Palestinians want a “one state solution”. However most long time negotiators again believe that this problem can ultimately be settled, perhaps by only allowing Palestinians of a certain age to return, or some kind of monetary settlement for lands lost (reparations if you will.) 

3. The Palestinians have always insisted on Jerusalem being their capital, for historical and religious reasons. The Israelis will never agree to this for historical and religious reasons. Negotiators have struggled with this issue and been unable to solve it, but the USA has tried to take a neutral stance by having its embassy in Tel Aviv rather than Jerusalem, until Trump changed that in order to make one of his biggest donors happy, the late Sheldon Adelson. Now we continue to pay the cost for that blunder. 

4. The problem, beyond these conditions, is that Gaza and the West Bank are not contiguous. Israel divides them, so it would be problematic to have a state of Palestine in which the land is separated. The British Raj solved a similar problem in 1948 by creating two separate Muslim territories out of India: Pakistan and Bangladesh. But that would entail a 3 state solution. 

5. The position of Hamas is pretty simple: Israel will never agree to any of this so Fatah is weak. The only way there will ever be a Palestinian homeland is to destroy Israel. There is a lot of sympathy for Hamas among Palestinians because they appear to be fighters, fighting back, etc. Many leftists won’t speak out against Hamas because leftists are sympathetic to Palestinians in general. But in truth, I believe that very few Palestinians, and almost no leftists, are so fanatic against Israel that they want to see it completely destroyed. That’s where I think Jerrykids and others get it wrong. 

 

Good post, and the theme here is "It's complicted", which is why this kind of discussion is impossible here.  The bulk of the people here are simple minded and black or white (not race).  They don't understand nuance or complex situations.  It's all gotcha BS like "You tear down a poster you're an antisemite" or "so and so thinks men can menstruate" or any of the other nonsense.

We have the same thing here, "Israel wants a 2 state solution, Palestine does not".  Nothing in life is that simple, especially not this.

[jerryskids 6,730]

36 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

See this is problematic. It’s partly true but not entirely true: 

Abbas, like Arafat before him, has voiced support for a 2 state solution. Yet there have always been 3 conditions and 1 problem  to this support which Israel will not accept: 

1. The Palestinian Authority (Abbas/Fatah) wants 100% of the settlements on the West Bank occupied by Jews since 1967 removed. But some of these settlements are over 50 years old and you’re talking about the forced removal of thousands of people, some of which have sworn that they will die before they leave. At one point during the Clinton Presidency the Israelis agreed to remove 95% of these settlements but never 100%. The PA has always insisted on 100%. However, most long time negotiators believe that this problem can be settled. 

2. The Palestinians have always insisted on the Right of Return, meaning that anyone of Palestinian descent of any age can “return” to Israel and become a citizen of Israel. Given that there are many more Palestinians than Jews, this would inevitably result in Israel ceasing to exist, which is why Israel will never agree to it. And it’s this condition that causes people like @jerryskids to correctly point out that most Palestinians want a “one state solution”. However most long time negotiators again believe that this problem can ultimately be settled, perhaps by only allowing Palestinians of a certain age to return, or some kind of monetary settlement for lands lost (reparations if you will.) 

3. The Palestinians have always insisted on Jerusalem being their capital, for historical and religious reasons. The Israelis will never agree to this for historical and religious reasons. Negotiators have struggled with this issue and been unable to solve it, but the USA has tried to take a neutral stance by having its embassy in Tel Aviv rather than Jerusalem, until Trump changed that in order to make one of his biggest donors happy, the late Sheldon Adelson. Now we continue to pay the cost for that blunder. 

4. The problem, beyond these conditions, is that Gaza and the West Bank are not contiguous. Israel divides them, so it would be problematic to have a state of Palestine in which the land is separated. The British Raj solved a similar problem in 1948 by creating two separate Muslim territories out of India: Pakistan and Bangladesh. But that would entail a 3 state solution. 

5. The position of Hamas is pretty simple: Israel will never agree to any of this so Fatah is weak. The only way there will ever be a Palestinian homeland is to destroy Israel. There is a lot of sympathy for Hamas among Palestinians because they appear to be fighters, fighting back, etc. Many leftists won’t speak out against Hamas because leftists are sympathetic to Palestinians in general. But in truth, I believe that very few Palestinians, and almost no leftists, are so fanatic against Israel that they want to see it completely destroyed. That’s where I think Jerrykids and others get it wrong. 

 

Bless your heart.  From Ben Shapiro's recent debates/discussions at Oxford University:

 

https://youtu.be/-1NFirxhXWE?t=364

https://youtu.be/-1NFirxhXWE?t=874

[League Champion 1,909]

 

[GutterBoy 2,899]

20 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Bless your heart.  From Ben Shapiro's recent debates/discussions at Oxford University:

 

https://youtu.be/-1NFirxhXWE?t=364

https://youtu.be/-1NFirxhXWE?t=874

When your only reply is to post youtube videos of a guy who burned Barbie dolls in protest, you know you've lost.