Timmy’s thread for general discussion

[TimHauck 2,633]

4 minutes ago, iam90sbaby said:

You're one dumb fock.

Lol aren’t you the guy that said we should only let in immigrants with college degrees?  That might be the worst idea I’ve ever heard, unless your plan is for them to bring wages down and take middle/upper class jobs away from Americans 

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

56 minutes ago, Ron_Artest said:

Gets his "facts" from propaganda YouTube videos

It’s also really sad. Putin is a dictator and jon is attacking someone who was imprisoned and murdered for speaking out against the dictatorship. 
 

I have speculated in the past that among at least some conservatives there is this strange love for Putin. They admire him. It’s not just Trump. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,247]

18 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I have posted study after study that demonstrates the exact opposite. Facts do matter. @TimHauck is essentially correct; we need them to keep prices low. It’s true that right now they’re coming in too quickly in too large numbers so we need to contain that, but in the long run the fact that they are a positive has been proven again and again and again. 

If you don’t believe me ask yourself this question: why in all the years of conservative proposals on this subject, including from Trump, there has never been a push to punish employers for hiring undocumented immigrants? If you truly wanted to get rid of them, punishing the employers, particularly the large agriculture companies, would surely be the fastest way: fines and jail time. Yet this has never happened. Why is that? What does it tell you? 

When it’s a reasonable sure I’ll go along with that. We’ve never seen numbers like this.  Your study is completely invalid.  Please show when we have ever been building illegal shelters housing them in schools and airports?

there aren’t 8 million low paying jobs to fill a year for this invasion to continue 

but at the end of the day it helps your team so you are all for it 

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

Good article on CNN about the cost of living being too high for so many Americans: 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/02/economy/american-dream-cost-of-living-housing-childcare/index.html

Our economy is booming. But the cost of everything has gone up too much for most people. 
It is this issue that is generating the xenophobia, the reaction to undocumented immigrants, the support for Trump, the opposition to further aid to Ukraine. I believe this issue is at the heart of it. 

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

Just now, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

When it’s a reasonable sure I’ll go along with that. We’ve never seen numbers like this.  Your study is completely invalid.  Please show when we have ever been building illegal shelters housing them in schools and airports?

there aren’t 8 million low paying jobs to fill a year for this invasion to continue 

The numbers have never been this high. You’re correct about that. We need to take some emergency action to contain them. Biden has been derelict. I agree with all of this. 
 

I was willing to accept the compromise proposals that James Lankford worked out. They leaned heavily to the right, IMO. I will never accept Trump’s suggested proposals and I suspect most Democrats will never accept them, which makes them unworkable unless Trump can actually become the dictator he wants to be. So that puts us back at square one. We need to work together to solve this problem but it’s not happening. 

[iam90sbaby 2,503]

1 hour ago, TimHauck said:

Lol aren’t you the guy that said we should only let in immigrants with college degrees?  That might be the worst idea I’ve ever heard, unless your plan is for them to bring wages down and take middle/upper class jobs away from Americans 

I would let in a very small amount of carefully selected college educated immigrants from European countries. 1000-5000 per year. It would have zero effect on the overall US economy. The very best surgeons, programmers, etc.. that those countries have to offer

You're dumbazz thinks letting in thousands and thousands of cheap labor immigrants has a positive effect on the economy and helps Americans. You're actually a stupid person.

[TimHauck 2,633]

2 minutes ago, iam90sbaby said:

I would let in a very small amount of carefully selected college educated immigrants from European countries.

European countries only, lol

[jonmx 2,424]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

I wasn’t being smug, The recent focus on undocumented immigrants as mostly violent angry criminals is not only false, it’s a form of bigotry IMO, and fuels xenophobia and the sort of Trumpian divisiveness which I despise. Frankly it terrifies me. I am relieved to see any pushback against it. There’s no smugness involved. 

There are over 4,000 illegals crossing the border every day filling our streets with fentanyl and trafficking women and children into prostitution, and you are going to claim the seemingly false arrest of a single illegal proves they are all innocent, and this is blown way out of proportion.  The truth is they just arrested the wrong illegal.  The guy seems like a big turd regardless.  Biden's white house has intentionally allowed the illegal border crossings to spiral out of control, and we are allowing the worst of the worst to come into this country instead of having some controlled screening process.  I actually favor a significant level of immigartion, but it has to be fully controlled and the people we allow in need to be screened so we are accepting people who will contribute positively.   

[jerryskids 6,594]

13 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

In a discussion I had with @jerryskids a couple of days ago he asserted that much of Western Europe has taken issue with American medical opinion about transgenders. I wanted to investigate the accuracy of this claim. Turns out it’s not that accurate, the situation is much more complicated: 

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/06/us-europe-transgender-care-00119106

Thanks Tim, I appreciate the good discussion.

I find your link to be completely in sync with my "claim" or position.  I feel like I've been consistent with it and stated it multiple times, but in the interest of further good discussion, I'll repeat it yet again.

I believe that gender dysphoria exists, but is very rare.  Until recently, remedies like hormones or surgery were reserved for extreme, severe cases.  What changed is that it has become a social contagion, enabled by the psychiatric community.  Every single country in your link, every one, is in some stage of increasing restrictions, limiting care to extreme cases, requiring multidisciplinary teams to diagnose cases, etc.

One of many examples:

Quote

A year and a half after the Karolinska decision, the National Board of Health and Welfare, a Swedish government agency, updated its guidelines on gender-affirming care for minors. It stated that puberty blockers, hormones, and mastectomies should only be used in “exceptional cases,” as the risks are likely to outweigh the benefits. In addition, the board said, mental health care should be offered to patients when doctors are assessing them.

You refuse to even consider the existence of this contagion, and the associated lack of rigor by the medical community.  Yet if you read your link through this lens, it is clear that that is exactly what is being addressed.  Perhaps stated another way:  if you do not believe it, then what issue do you think they are addressing with these restrictions?

If we could revert to a time where such rigor was implemented, I would be much more open to discussion of medical intervention for minors in extreme cases.  Or in other words, deferring to the experts.  But when those "experts" think such interventions are needed for anyone who feels trans, I will consider them idiot quacks who are caught up in a social movement, not experts.

HTH  

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,247]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

The numbers have never been this high. You’re correct about that. We need to take some emergency action to contain them. Biden has been derelict. I agree with all of this. 
 

I was willing to accept the compromise proposals that James Lankford worked out. They leaned heavily to the right, IMO. I will never accept Trump’s suggested proposals and I suspect most Democrats will never accept them, which makes them unworkable unless Trump can actually become the dictator he wants to be. So that puts us back at square one. We need to work together to solve this problem but it’s not happening. 

Once again there doesn’t need to be a bill or anything passed in order for the govt to do it’s job. 
 

all it takes is a zero tolerance and immediate deportation policy for criminals 

currently all they are doing is participating in human trafficking. Watch the last thing Dr Phil has been talking about. It’s horrendous 

[TimHauck 2,633]

16 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

Once again there doesn’t need to be a bill or anything passed in order for the govt to do it’s job. 
 

all it takes is a zero tolerance and immediate deportation policy for criminals 

currently all they are doing is participating in human trafficking. Watch the last thing Dr Phil has been talking about. It’s horrendous 

And are you defining criminal as anyone who crosses the border illegally?

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

43 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Thanks Tim, I appreciate the good discussion.

I find your link to be completely in sync with my "claim" or position.  I feel like I've been consistent with it and stated it multiple times, but in the interest of further good discussion, I'll repeat it yet again.

I believe that gender dysphoria exists, but is very rare.  Until recently, remedies like hormones or surgery were reserved for extreme, severe cases.  What changed is that it has become a social contagion, enabled by the psychiatric community.  Every single country in your link, every one, is in some stage of increasing restrictions, limiting care to extreme cases, requiring multidisciplinary teams to diagnose cases, etc.

One of many examples:

You refuse to even consider the existence of this contagion, and the associated lack of rigor by the medical community.  Yet if you read your link through this lens, it is clear that that is exactly what is being addressed.  Perhaps stated another way:  if you do not believe it, then what issue do you think they are addressing with these restrictions?

If we could revert to a time where such rigor was implemented, I would be much more open to discussion of medical intervention for minors in extreme cases.  Or in other words, deferring to the experts.  But when those "experts" think such interventions are needed for anyone who feels trans, I will consider them idiot quacks who are caught up in a social movement, not experts.

HTH  

Well the article mentioned some alternative reasons: they don’t have the facilities. In a sense their desire for restrictions mirrors my reluctant agreement that we need to contain the flow of undocumented immigrants: too much too soon. 
 

I weary of this topic because it’s become political and it shouldn’t be. Let’s cut to the chase: minors under 18 shouldn’t be allowed surgery. They can have treatment but not the surgery until they’re 18. No other restrictions- let people do what they want. No biological males competing in girls sports. Harsh rules/laws against bullying. And let’s move on as a society. 

[iam90sbaby 2,503]

1 hour ago, TimHauck said:

European countries only, lol

Yep, exactly.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,247]

19 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

And are you defining criminal as anyone who crosses the border illegally?

No. But we should as a country Be making a statement that anyone from this day forward caught crossing illegally it is a crime as per federal law and will be enforced. You have an administration who openly invited this so it’s really hard to punish those people. But we can’t take any more. It’s been stupidity beyond belief 

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

11 minutes ago, iam90sbaby said:

Yep, exactly.

Isn’t this too inclusive? Some people from the eastern/southern parts of Europe might be the wrong skin color. Or the wrong religion. Better be more restrictive. 

[jerryskids 6,594]

15 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Well the article mentioned some alternative reasons: they don’t have the facilities. In a sense their desire for restrictions mirrors my reluctant agreement that we need to contain the flow of undocumented immigrants: too much too soon. 
 

I weary of this topic because it’s become political and it shouldn’t be. Let’s cut to the chase: minors under 18 shouldn’t be allowed surgery. They can have treatment but not the surgery until they’re 18. No other restrictions- let people do what they want. No biological males competing in girls sports. Harsh rules/laws against bullying. And let’s move on as a society. 

I just reread it and saw nothing about not having the facilities as a reason to reduce treatment.  Also, you tagged me for this, so I'm going to finish my thoughts. 

I think you once again refuse to see the rush to diagnosis as the problem. 

UK:  "The NHS cited an internal review that raised concerns that children were being referred too quickly, causing an unsustainable surge in patients"

France: "The NHS cited an internal review that raised concerns that children were being referred too quickly, causing an unsustainable surge in patients."

Sweden: "Part of the coverage focused on criticism of Stockholm’s Karolinska University Hospital for allegedly rushing children into treatment and failing to adequately consider whether they suffered from mental health problems."

Norway: Not as good of an example, so I'll put "Norway made headlines last year after one of its independent agencies recommended defining gender-affirming care for minors as “experimental.”"

Anyway, include hormones and puberty blockers in your restrictions for minors, and I basically agree with your suggestions.   

[IGotWorms 4,057]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Good article on CNN about the cost of living being too high for so many Americans: 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/02/economy/american-dream-cost-of-living-housing-childcare/index.html

Our economy is booming. But the cost of everything has gone up too much for most people. 
It is this issue that is generating the xenophobia, the reaction to undocumented immigrants, the support for Trump, the opposition to further aid to Ukraine. I believe this issue is at the heart of it. 

It’s a real issue but don’t agree with the bolded at all. This all started well before inflation, really back in 2010 with the tea party movement then the birther movement then the head birther being elected president in 2016.

However it will be inflation that dooms Biden this year. People are sour AF over it. Nobody remembers that we would’ve had a monumental economic depression without pumping all that money into the economy.

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

Latino students at Georgia receiving death threats after murder: 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/02/us/latino-students-at-uga-face-hostility-after-police-say-suspect-in-laken-rileys-death-is-undocumented/index.html

 

[Strike 5,261]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

Latino students at Georgia receiving death threats after murder: 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/02/us/latino-students-at-uga-face-hostility-after-police-say-suspect-in-laken-rileys-death-is-undocumented/index.html

 

FTA:

Quote

CNN has not independently verified these posts,

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

1 hour ago, jerryskids said:

I just reread it and saw nothing about not having the facilities as a reason to reduce treatment.  Also, you tagged me for this, so I'm going to finish my thoughts. 

I think you once again refuse to see the rush to diagnosis as the problem. 

UK:  "The NHS cited an internal review that raised concerns that children were being referred too quickly, causing an unsustainable surge in patients"

France: "The NHS cited an internal review that raised concerns that children were being referred too quickly, causing an unsustainable surge in patients."

Sweden: "Part of the coverage focused on criticism of Stockholm’s Karolinska University Hospital for allegedly rushing children into treatment and failing to adequately consider whether they suffered from mental health problems."

Norway: Not as good of an example, so I'll put "Norway made headlines last year after one of its independent agencies recommended defining gender-affirming care for minors as “experimental.”"

Anyway, include hormones and puberty blockers in your restrictions for minors, and I basically agree with your suggestions.   

I don’t agree with your intrepretation of the article but I won’t quibble about it. 
 

I strongly disagree with the hormones and blockers restrictions. If a minor decides to do this in consultation with doctors and/or parents it’s none of the state’s business. The surgery is a different issue and I can agree to compromise on that. Not on this. 

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

Just now, Strike said:

FTA:

So what? Do you doubt it? Would it really surprise you, given the current climate of bigotry and hatred that Trump and others are spreading? 

[Strike 5,261]

3 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

So what? Do you doubt it? Would it really surprise you, given the current climate of bigotry and hatred that Trump and others are spreading? 

Apparently the article is about harassment on a social media app called "Yik Yak" that I've never heard of.  But apparently, much like 4chan, this app is a haven for harassment and bigotry to the point that the app was shut down in 2016 for that very reason.  The problem here is social media and with apps such as "Yik Yak".  So this issue is always going to exist.   You're going to be able to write this article for ANY incident you want.  IOW, IDGAF.   But go ahead and have a hissy fit over it.  Funny you never do when someone like Riley Gaines is threatened on social media.  But you do you.

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

1 minute ago, Strike said:

Apparently the article is about harassment on a social media app called "Yik Yak" that I've never heard of.  But apparently, much like 4chan, this app is a haven for harassment and bigotry to the point that the app was shut down in 2016 for that very reason.  The problem here is social media and with apps such as "Yik Yak".  So this issue is always going to exist.   You're going to be able to write this article for ANY incident you want.  IOW, IDGAF.   But go ahead and have a hissy fit over it.  Funny you never do when someone like Riley Gaines is threatened on social media.  But you do you.

Social media is certainly part of the problem. I hate it. But the other part, which you deny, is the hatred against Latinos being nurtured by Donald Trump in his rhetoric about undocumented immigrants. 
 

I had to look up who Riley Gaines was. Such stories don’t interest me. I don’t believe that biological males should compete in girls sports but it’s such a minor issue that I tend to ignore the headlines about it. iMO the only reason that most conservatives make a big deal about it is so they can continue their obsessive anti-trans harassment which is pretty ugly. Even so if she’s been threatened that’s wrong. 

[Strike 5,261]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

Social media is certainly part of the problem. I hate it. But the other part, which you deny, is the hatred against Latinos being nurtured by Donald Trump in his rhetoric about undocumented immigrants. 
 

I had to look up who Riley Gaines was. Such stories don’t interest me. I don’t believe that biological males should compete in girls sports but it’s such a minor issue that I tend to ignore the headlines about it. iMO the only reason that most conservatives make a big deal about it is so they can continue their obsessive anti-trans harassment which is pretty ugly. Even so if she’s been threatened that’s wrong. 

I said "people like" Riley Gaines you dolt.  You can substitute Ben Shapiro for her if you must.  It's not about what she stands for.  It's about her ability to exercise her RIGHT to free speech without being threatened or harassed.  If you don't care about people like Ben Shapiro or Riley Gaines why should I care about people who read Yik Yak?   And if they weren't reading Yik Yak they wouldn't even know about these non verified threats. 

[jerryskids 6,594]

7 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I don’t agree with your intrepretation of the article but I won’t quibble about it. 
 

I strongly disagree with the hormones and blockers restrictions. If a minor decides to do this in consultation with doctors and/or parents it’s none of the state’s business. The surgery is a different issue and I can agree to compromise on that. Not on this. 

Hormones and puberty blockers vs surgery are somewhat distinctions without a difference.  They are processes by which you can physically modify your body.  It seems inconsistent to me to favor one and oppose the other.

Also it occurs to me that if you need to take hormones to feel like a different sex, that might be an indication that the problem is psychological.  But that's a different discussion.

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

4 minutes ago, Strike said:

I said "people like" Riley Gaines you dolt.  You can substitute Ben Shapiro for her if you must.  It's not about what she stands for.  It's about her ability to exercise her RIGHT to free speech without being threatened or harassed.  If you don't care about people like Ben Shapiro or Riley Gaines why should I care about people who read Yik Yak?   And if they weren't reading Yik Yak they wouldn't even know about these non verified threats. 

Nobody deserves death threats. I don’t believe that politicians should foster hatred of people. I think that’s happening much more on one side than on the other. 

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Hormones and puberty blockers vs surgery are somewhat distinctions without a difference.  They are processes by which you can physically modify your body.  It seems inconsistent to me to favor one and oppose the other.

Also it occurs to me that if you need to take hormones to feel like a different sex, that might be an indication that the problem is psychological.  But that's a different discussion.

I don’t accept your first argument. If I did then I’d have to believe that surgery should be legal for minors as well. I think there’s a difference, but if there isn’t then my fallback is always that the state shouldn’t play a role. 

[BrahmaBulls 628]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

Nobody deserves death threats. I don’t believe that politicians should foster hatred of people. I think that’s happening much more on one side than on the other. 

Agreed.  Your side should do much better here.

[Strike 5,261]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Nobody deserves death threats. I don’t believe that politicians should foster hatred of people. I think that’s happening much more on one side than on the other. 

Yep.  You libs have a lot of hatred built up

[Strike 5,261]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

I don’t accept your first argument. If I did then I’d have to believe that surgery should be legal for minors as well. I think there’s a difference, but if there isn’t then my fallback is always that the state shouldn’t play a role. 

What about corporal punishment?  If a kid shows up at school all bruised and beat up, should the state care? 

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

6 minutes ago, Strike said:

What about corporal punishment?  If a kid shows up at school all bruised and beat up, should the state care? 

Yes of course. Do you really think this is a good analogy? 

[Strike 5,261]

7 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Yes of course. Do you really think this is a good analogy? 

It's not intended to be an "analogy".  It just shows that the question isn't whether the state should care, but at what point.  The drugs given to kids for "gender dysphoria"  do irreversible damage, just as the surgeries do.  I believe, and I think this is Jerry's stance as well, that when it gets to the point of irreversible damage is when the state should care.

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

1 minute ago, Strike said:

It's not intended to be an "analogy".  It just shows that the question isn't whether the state should care, but at what point.  The drugs given to kids for "gender dysphoria"  do irreversible damage, just as the surgeries do.  I believe, and I think this is Jerry's stance as well, that when it gets to the point of irreversible damage is when the state should care.

I’m not sure but I don’t believe the changes are irreversible. Also the word “damage” is quite revealing. And very inaccurate. 

[Strike 5,261]

Just now, The Real timschochet said:

I’m not sure but I don’t believe the changes are irreversible. Also the word “damage” is quite revealing. And very inaccurate. 

I'm shocked at your ignorance!!!!

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

9 minutes ago, Strike said:

I'm shocked at your ignorance!!!!

https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-estrogen-hormone-therapy#:~:text=Many of the effects of,absent fertility are not reversible.
 

“Many of the effects are reversible…” 

[iam90sbaby 2,503]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Isn’t this too inclusive? Some people from the eastern/southern parts of Europe might be the wrong skin color. Or the wrong religion. Better be more restrictive. 

It's more about culture/religion than race. Only slightly though.

[jerryskids 6,594]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-estrogen-hormone-therapy#:~:text=Many of the effects of,absent fertility are not reversible.
 

“Many of the effects are reversible…” 

"Reversible" is incorrect.  The drugs work for the time they are used.  If puberty blockers are used for 2 years, you cannot get that time back.  You can stop taking them and whatever is left of your pubescence process will continue, but whatever you've lost in development for those two years is lost forever.  So if you are a man, you might have a tiny/micropenis, tiny testicles which generate no sperm or testosterone, etc.

The trans community intentionally obfuscates this to make it sound better than it is.

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

5 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

"Reversible" is incorrect.  The drugs work for the time they are used.  If puberty blockers are used for 2 years, you cannot get that time back.  You can stop taking them and whatever is left of your pubescence process will continue, but whatever you've lost in development for those two years is lost forever.  So if you are a man, you might have a tiny/micropenis, tiny testicles which generate no sperm or testosterone, etc.

The trans community intentionally obfuscates this to make it sound better than it is.

You mean worse than it is. “better” than it is, like “damaged” implies that this whole thing is a mistake for most people. From what I’ve read only a tiny percentage ever regret it, though the few that do obviously get a lot of play from conservatives. 

[jerryskids 6,594]

5 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

You mean worse than it is. “better” than it is, like “damaged” implies that this whole thing is a mistake for most people. From what I’ve read only a tiny percentage ever regret it, though the few that do obviously get a lot of play from conservatives. 

No, I mean better.  Your link makes it seem like "no harm, no foul" for the most part.  Although they do mention infertility.  The damage is irreversible, and the impact depends on the length of time taking them.

I'm not even addressing that last sentence; it is pablum and I've addressed it already in this thread and many others.  You just refuse to process the words.

[The Real timschochet 6,512]

2 hours ago, jerryskids said:

No, I mean better.  Your link makes it seem like "no harm, no foul" for the most part.  Although they do mention infertility.  The damage is irreversible, and the impact depends on the length of time taking them.

I'm not even addressing that last sentence; it is pablum and I've addressed it already in this thread and many others.  You just refuse to process the words.

I process them, I just sharply disagree. And I think you’re being incredibly patronizing to transgenders, by telling them they’re doing damage to themselves, or that they’re sick or mentally ill. I hope they don’t spend any time listening to you- or to me either. They should trust their doctors.