How do you feel about immigration?

[The Psychic Observer 498]

Vote

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

Lots of Texor restaurants are struggling and even closing because they can't find employees. This country as a whole has a labor shortage. Seems like we could find a way to capitalize on all these people who want to come here. 

[weepaws 3,191]

Who are they? 

[5-Points 3,528]

Come through the front door, bring some skills, get to work, learn English, assimilate and stay off the dole.

Otherwise GTFO and don't come back. 

[Nomad99 742]

9 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

Come through the front door, bring some skills, get to work, learn English, assimilate and stay off the dole.

Otherwise GTFO and don't come back. 

This

I get it that people can often find a better life in America. My problem is that many of them get that better life being supported by our government....thus the taxpayers. It's painful enough to pay the taxes we pay......it's even more painful to see that money spent that way. We have PLENTY of homeless Vets, plenty of other homeless due to bad fortune rather than drugs. I really think that money should be spent there FIRST. You wouldn't feed your neighbors & watch your family starve. If you do come to this country, come legally. Work hard, learn OUR language, retain your culture, heritage & history but adapt to & accept our culture. There is a reason it's better here......KEEP IT THAT WAY. Never forget the opportunity presented to you & strive to be part of that. There is a difference between the immigrants of the 1800's & a lot of the current ones. Taking advantage of an opportunity is vastly different than taking advantage. We are all byproducts of the first wave of immigrants & we/they built this country. I don't see that type of pride & fortitude in a lot of what's coming now. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

24 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

Come through the front door, bring some skills, get to work, learn English, assimilate and stay off the dole.

Otherwise GTFO and don't come back. 

I’m good with this 

[The Real timschochet 6,763]

4 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

I’m good with this 

I’m not. 
Hey I’m the only guy who voted for the top choice! Go figure! 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,101]

33 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

Come through the front door, bring some skills, get to work, learn English, assimilate and stay off the dole.

Otherwise GTFO and don't come back. 

This is the way. 

And that is NOT even debatable.  There is no other option.

[seafoam1 3,023]

Ghey wimpy hate-filled democrats love open borders.

 

We already knew this...

[The Real timschochet 6,763]

30 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

Come through the front door, bring some skills, get to work, learn English, assimilate and stay off the dole.

Otherwise GTFO and don't come back. 

Let’s break this down. 
 

1. Only works if the front door is available for everyone equally. It isn’t and never has been. 

2. We need unskilled labor from abroad. Always have and always will. 

3. Most of these folks work harder and longer hours than native born Americans so you don’t have to worry about this. 

4. What business is it of yours? There is no official language in this country. Why don’t you learn Navajo? 

5. Assimilation works both ways. America has assimilated to every group of immigrants that has come here far more than they have assimilated to those already here. 

6. Let’s get native born Americans off the dole first. Lots more of them, especially in red states. 
 

7. They have as much right to be here as you do, according to the ideals of our Founding Fathers. Thats what this country is supposed to be about. If you don’t like it then maybe it’s you who should GTFO. 

[listen2me 23 1,873]

5 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

2. We need unskilled labor from abroad. Always have and always will. 

If we get rid of abortions we could have a nice supply of unskilled labor.  Judt put thr babies straight into the olympic training center.  The most elite unskilled workers in the world!

[listen2me 23 1,873]

45 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

Come through the front door, bring some skills, get to work, learn English, assimilate and stay off the dole.

Otherwise GTFO and don't come back. 

But this for me.   The immigrants that came over in the early 1900s are rolling in their graves.  

Why not spend more money on this and let people in with questionable backgrounds in less?   Why not get rid of these people when they act up within weeks of appearing here?  These things seem like a simple compromise.   Immigration?  Cool.  Lets do it the best way possible.  Lets put effort into doing it the cleanest way possible for the rest of our citizens.  There was no plan.  Many are mooching.  The rate of bad people coming in has to be higher than it could and should be.  No housing.  

What happens when more automation kicks in?   Right after we took the load of "cheap labor".  Then what?  A GM would get fired.  

[Nomad99 742]

27 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Let’s break this down. 
 

1. Only works if the front door is available for everyone equally. It isn’t and never has been. 

2. We need unskilled labor from abroad. Always have and always will. 

3. Most of these folks work harder and longer hours than native born Americans so you don’t have to worry about this. 

4. What business is it of yours? There is no official language in this country. Why don’t you learn Navajo? 

5. Assimilation works both ways. America has assimilated to every group of immigrants that has come here far more than they have assimilated to those already here. 

6. Let’s get native born Americans off the dole first. Lots more of them, especially in red states. 
 

7. They have as much right to be here as you do, according to the ideals of our Founding Fathers. Thats what this country is supposed to be about. If you don’t like it then maybe it’s you who should GTFO. 

You should  retitle your response to "let's FAKE this down". Someone so wise & learned as you can't possibly convince yourself that you could push your cherry picked, best case scenario, shangri-la version of what's happening over on us poor, earthbound conservative dolts. Your character.....or lack of, shows itself every time you post bullchit like this. You don't even try to be reasonable.....you just spread frosting on crap & call it cake. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,429]

I think we need to take a little break and sort this mess out. I’d say about 10 pct of them are usefull. They can stay but the rest gotta go.  We don’t need fat Guatemalan women coming here to clean Tim’s house. There are plenty of fat American women that can do that. 

[Maximum Overkill 1,988]

100% Pro Legal Immigration 

100% Anti ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

And that's how every American should think 

[seafoam1 3,023]

48 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Let’s break this down. 
 

1. I'm a dumbass.

2. I'm still a dumbass.

3. Nothing will change the fact that I'm a dumbass.

Got it.

[5-Points 3,528]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Let’s break this down. 
 

1. Only works if the front door is available for everyone equally. It isn’t and never has been. 

2. We need unskilled labor from abroad. Always have and always will. 

3. Most of these folks work harder and longer hours than native born Americans so you don’t have to worry about this. 

4. What business is it of yours? There is no official language in this country. Why don’t you learn Navajo? 

5. Assimilation works both ways. America has assimilated to every group of immigrants that has come here far more than they have assimilated to those already here. 

6. Let’s get native born Americans off the dole first. Lots more of them, especially in red states. 
 

7. They have as much right to be here as you do, according to the ideals of our Founding Fathers. Thats what this country is supposed to be about. If you don’t like it then maybe it’s you who should GTFO. 

Yeah, let's do that. 

1. Nobody has a right to immigrate here. We have the right to decide who we allow in. 

2. You equate manual labor to unskilled labor. Brick laying is a skill. Landscaping is a skill. Folding laundry and mopping floors are not. 

3. They wouldn't have to work such long, hard hours if cheapskates like you didn't take advantage of them to save a few bucks. 

4. If you want to live in a foreign country, learn to communicate effectively with the natives. It's in everyone's best interest. 

5. It is incumbent on the immigrant to assimilate to the new country they wish to reside in. Not the other way around. 

6. Native born have more of a right to live on the dole than do illegals. 

7. No, they don't. 

That will be all. 

[The Real timschochet 6,763]

16 minutes ago, Nomad99 said:

You should  retitle your response to "let's FAKE this down". Someone so wise & learned as you can't possibly convince yourself that you could push your cherry picked, best case scenario, shangri-la version of what's happening over on us poor, earthbound conservative dolts. Your character.....or lack of, shows itself every time you post bullchit like this. You don't even try to be reasonable.....you just spread frosting on crap & call it cake. 

1. So you think I’m cherry picking? I would argue that it’s the other way around. The points I made are not true all of the time but I will stand firmly on the theory  that they are true MOST of the time. Those that focus on individual acts of violence and crime by undocumented immigrants are the ones cherry-picking because they do not represent the majority. 
 

2. I don’t think conservatives are poor, earthbound or dolts. I think that, on this issue, you’re wrong. You’re not any dumber than me, you’re just wrong. Don’t put words in my mouth please. I don’t regard myself as “wise and learned” on this issue. The facts are available to anyone who wants to look for them. 

3. You wrote that I don’t even try to be reasonable. But I was responding to someone who wrote “GTFO”. I don’t think that’s a reasonable argument. There are 15 million undocumented people in this country and more coming every day for reasons that have gone unaddressed both here and in most public discussions of this issue. If you’re going to demand a reasonable discussion of this subject, let’s begin with the recognition that the vast majority of these people aren’t going anywhere. If you’re unwilling to accept that fact, then IMO no reasonable discussion is possible. 

[The Real timschochet 6,763]

1 minute ago, 5-Points said:

Yeah, let's do that. 

1. Nobody has a right to immigrate here. We have the right to decide who we allow in. 

2. You equate manual labor to unskilled labor. Brick laying is a skill. Landscaping is a skill. Folding laundry and mopping floors are not. 

3. They wouldn't have to work such long, hard hours if cheapskates like you didn't take advantage of them to save a few bucks. 

4. If you want to live in a foreign country, learn to communicate effectively with the natives. It's in everyone's best interest. 

5. It is incumbent on the immigrant to assimilate to the new country they wish to reside in. Not the other way around. 

6. Native born have more of a right to live on the dole than do illegals. 

7. No, they don't. 

 

1. Agreed. 
2. I agree but both types are necessary. 
3. The free market creates wages not me. You can call me and other employers “cheapskates” but any increase of wages gets passed to consumers. 
4. I agree. But it’s not up to you to decide or try to force that on people. 
5. I don’t agree. But the marketplace decides whether that happens not you nor I nor government regulation. 
6. Agreed but my point is most undocumented people aren’t on any kind of dole. The fact is that in most cases they put more into the system than they take out. 
7. This goes back to point #1. I agree that we have a right to decide who comes here. But it’s then a question of what kind of nation we want to be. Our Founding Fathers, particularly Thomas Jefferson, envisioned a nation welcoming to immigrants from everywhere. To him the USA was the “New World”. I think that we should try to live up to his vision, and that of Ronald Reagan who reiterated the argument. 

[jerryskids 6,797]

Freakonomics has a wonderful podcast series out right now about our broken immigration system.  Politically, the host leans left, but it seems to be presenting valid points from both pro and anti immigration:

https://freakonomics.com/podcast-tag/the-true-story-of-americas-supremely-messed-up-immigration-system/

I'm not quite done with it but I've learned a lot.  It'll take a few hours to listen to it all, but worth it IMO if you want to learn the history as well as pros and cons.  The history in a nutshell is:  we haven't always been receptive to anyone but western Europeans and German protestants.

My one concern that they haven't addressed yet is the problem of attributing old data to the current situation.  The "old" data indicates that immigrants cost us money, but their kids and their kids more than make up for it in tax revenues, so it is a net positive.  But they also discuss that in 2014, around the advent of social media, word got out to people that if they (and their families) just come and manage to get into the country, there is a good chance that they will stay for life, so the numbers have exploded.  I'm not convinced that the old data (something along the points that @5-Pointsmade early in this thread) still apply.

This is too nuanced for @The Real timschochet, who just sees the data and concludes that all immigration is good.

[The Real timschochet 6,763]

3 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Freakonomics has a wonderful podcast series out right now about our broken immigration system.  Politically, the host leans left, but it seems to be presenting valid points from both pro and anti immigration:

https://freakonomics.com/podcast-tag/the-true-story-of-americas-supremely-messed-up-immigration-system/

I'm not quite done with it but I've learned a lot.  It'll take a few hours to listen to it all, but worth it IMO if you want to learn the history as well as pros and cons.  The history in a nutshell is:  we haven't always been receptive to anyone but western Europeans and German protestants.

My one concern that they haven't addressed yet is the problem of attributing old data to the current situation.  The "old" data indicates that immigrants cost us money, but their kids and their kids more than make up for it in tax revenues, so it is a net positive.  But they also discuss that in 2014, around the advent of social media, word got out to people that if they (and their families) just come and manage to get into the country, there is a good chance that they will stay for life, so the numbers have exploded.  I'm not convinced that the old data (something along the points that @5-Pointsmade early in this thread) still apply.

This is too nuanced for @The Real timschochet, who just sees the data and concludes that all immigration is good.

I don’t believe all immigration is good. I believe it’s GENERALLY good and in keeping with our ideals. But there are times when it doesn’t work and times when it needs be controlled. And I don’t think undocumented people should be scapegoated and blamed for our problems the way Trump is doing. 
 

I admire Freakanomics and appreciated nuanced arguments. I will take a closer look at this, thank you for posting. 

[The Real timschochet 6,763]

@jerryskids without looking yet at the link there is a problem with what you wrote about 2014. Obama’s term from 2009-2016 saw 50 year lows in undocumented immigration and this pretty much continued throughout most of Trump’s term. It only exploded starting in 2020. Conservatives like to blame this on Biden’s loosening of Trump’s restrictions but if that were the case then it should have been high during the Obama years as well. Which leads me to conclude that the current numbers we’re facing have much more to do with Covid and the economic dislocation it caused in Latin America, (far worse than in this country) than any other issue, whether it be government policy or social media messaging beginning in 2014. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,429]

Comparing immigration now to 100+ years ago.  So Fockin stupid. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,429]

In the 60 years Ellis Island was in operation 12 million people passéd through. But yeah, let’s compare that to the 8 million Biden has let in the last three years. It’s either massive stupidity or dishonesty. Both deserve a smack. 

[Nomad99 742]

12 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Comparing immigration now to 100+ years ago.  So Fockin stupid. 

Exactly.......that immigration made this country great.

[weepaws 3,191]

Why are they?  I want to be able to trust you.  

[5-Points 3,528]

5 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

In the 60 years Ellis Island was in operation 12 million people passéd through. But yeah, let’s compare that to the 8 million Biden has let in the last three years. It’s either massive stupidity or dishonesty. Both deserve a smack. 

12 million, over 60 years, came invited and vetted, through the front door, at a time when we needed them, and over a period of time we could absorb them into the fabric of society. During which time they became U.S. citizens and assimilated to American culture. 

vs

8 million, over 4 years, busting in through the open back door, uninvited, unvetted, during a period of time we don't need and can't afford them, with no intention of assimilating to American culture and many of whom are determined to destroy the country. 

You'd have to be an idiot to try to equate the two. 

 

[MDC 7,424]

I’m pro legal immigration, the only kind that Trump reduced.

[The Real timschochet 6,763]

11 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

12 million, over 60 years, came invited and vetted, through the front door, at a time when we needed them, and over a period of time we could absorb them into the fabric of society. During which time they became U.S. citizens and assimilated to American culture. 

vs

8 million, over 4 years, busting in through the open back door, uninvited, unvetted, during a period of time we don't need and can't afford them, with no intention of assimilating to American culture and many of whom are determined to destroy the country. 

You'd have to be an idiot to try to equate the two. 

 

Of course it’s comparable. 
 

First off they weren’t vetted. Second, the population of the USA was much smaller then so the number of immigrants, by percentage was much larger. Third they huddled in the big cities, spoke their own languages, refused to assimilate, and caused much more upheaval and violent crime and poverty than the current group. Finally the exact same anti-immigrant rhetoric was made then, nearly as ugly as it is now. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,429]

When my parents came here no one handed them a cash card, phone, a place to stay, medical and schooling for their kids. Stfu. 

[Maximum Overkill 1,988]

47 minutes ago, MDC said:

I’m pro legal immigration, the only kind that Trump reduced.

Says the Biden voter

[Cdub100 3,907]

7 hours ago, Pimpadeaux said:

Lots of Texor restaurants are struggling and even closing because they can't find employees. This country as a whole has a labor shortage. Seems like we could find a way to capitalize on all these people who want to come here. 

What is it with liberals and their desire for slaves?

[jerryskids 6,797]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

@jerryskids without looking yet at the link there is a problem with what you wrote about 2014. Obama’s term from 2009-2016 saw 50 year lows in undocumented immigration and this pretty much continued throughout most of Trump’s term. It only exploded starting in 2020. Conservatives like to blame this on Biden’s loosening of Trump’s restrictions but if that were the case then it should have been high during the Obama years as well. Which leads me to conclude that the current numbers we’re facing have much more to do with Covid and the economic dislocation it caused in Latin America, (far worse than in this country) than any other issue, whether it be government policy or social media messaging beginning in 2014. 

The 2014 came from the pods. I have no other supporting info. 

[kutulu 1,676]

In or out?

[Hardcore troubadour 15,429]

Lots of restaurants are closing because people aren’t going out to eat as much, not because of a lack of labor.  Rusty just making things up. 

[Maximum Overkill 1,988]

 

[jonnyutah 287]

13 hours ago, Pimpadeaux said:

Lots of Texor restaurants are struggling and even closing because they can't find employees. This country as a whole has a labor shortage. Seems like we could find a way to capitalize on all these people who want to come here. 

Why is this a problem? Once some restaurants close those workers can go work at the other restaurants. The owners can too. 

Restaurants close all the time. Why? Because there are too freaking many of them. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

20 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

I’m not. 
Hey I’m the only guy who voted for the top choice! Go figure! 

We know. You don’t like American culture and don’t think people should assimilate. And you like giving freebies to people who don’t give a fock about this country 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

19 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

@jerryskids without looking yet at the link there is a problem with what you wrote about 2014. Obama’s term from 2009-2016 saw 50 year lows in undocumented immigration and this pretty much continued throughout most of Trump’s term. It only exploded starting in 2020. Conservatives like to blame this on Biden’s loosening of Trump’s restrictions but if that were the case then it should have been high during the Obama years as well. Which leads me to conclude that the current numbers we’re facing have much more to do with Covid and the economic dislocation it caused in Latin America, (far worse than in this country) than any other issue, whether it be government policy or social media messaging beginning in 2014. 

Biden told them to flood the borders 

[The Real timschochet 6,763]

32 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

Biden told them to flood the borders 

Link?