For all you Iraq war supporters

[Q.Lazzarus 0]

You can't go to hell for budget projections that are trillions of dollars off, mortgaging off your country, or provoking a war.

 

You can only go for getting a blowjob from an intern.

[torridjoe 48]

I'm not talking about the Catholic Church. I'm talking about the evangelical Church which takes the Bible seriously.

 

I see--so what you're saying is that it depends on what TYPE of Christianity we're talking about, and that there apparently is a TRUE Christianity (that Catholicism is not?). I imagine that's just what Muslims would say--and Wahabbi doesn't have anywhere NEAR the respect in Islam that Catholicism has in Christianity.

 

The Bible commands to love your enemies and to help the poor. Bush does neither, in fact actively working oppositionally.

[gocolts 300]

Is homosexuality the "ultimate perversion of nature"?

 

[gratefulted 14]

FYI - There's no need to resort to name calling with me. I will reply to honest debate.

 

And I don't think it is logically defensable to argue that, for me to support the war, I must be standing in Iraq holding a gun and dodging roadside bombs. Surely a person can believe in the virtue of fighting the war on terror and still have a normal life and job in the US, especially if I pay my taxes and vote. Am I not entitled to support such a cause in that case?

Sorry about the name calling, I do get too riled up about this stuff. I also take it personally when the potus lies to start a war which involves my fellow soldiers. I'm not anti-war, in fact I thought Saudi Arabia would be much a better choice to fight. I do believe that if you back a war you should also be willing to fight it. Are you sure your taxes that you're paying now are going to this war?

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

No offense, but you're confused about the nature of Christianity.

 

I might be confused about the nature of your Christianity. I am just fine with mine. You are close minded because you believe that yours is the only true religion. That type of arrogance is why we have religious wars.

 

BTW - you indicated how Muslims felt about certain things, but you still have not shown how the Qur'an teaches them any differently than the Bible teaches Christians. Start with the Ten Commandments and compare the similarities.

[Blitzen 1]

our strategic interests are well served by being forward deployed in Iraq...any threat to the free flow of oil now has an instant repsonse...

 

Strange but I seem to remember a bunch of us claiming that the war in Iraq was about oil a couple of years ago and being shot down by dweebs like you saying it was really all about saving the Iraqis from their despot (after it had all been about saving us from Saddam's WMDs of course).

 

Nice to see you've finally joined those who had a basic grasp of what was really going on...only took you a couple of more years.

[Franknbeans 46]

Strange but I seem to remember a bunch of us claiming that the war in Iraq was about oil a couple of years ago and being shot down by dweebs like you saying it was really all about saving the Iraqis from their despot (after it had all been about saving us from Saddam's WMDs of course).

 

Nice to see you've finally joined those who had a basic grasp of what was really going on...only took you a couple of more years.

Another couple years and he'll admit what a huge clusterfuck it is

[Uh-huh 0]

Strange but I seem to remember a bunch of us claiming that the war in Iraq was about oil a couple of years ago and being shot down by dweebs like you saying it was really all about saving the Iraqis from their despot (after it had all been about saving us from Saddam's WMDs of course).

 

Nice to see you've finally joined those who had a basic grasp of what was really going on...only took you a couple of more years.

Fastfish doesn't "grasp" or "think" anything.

 

He just repeats the right-wingnut talking points for the day.

 

As you said, most people that aren't in W's backpocket suspected what this war was all about since before Day 1.

[TyCobb 0]

BTW - you indicated how Muslims felt about certain things, but you still have not shown how the Qur'an teaches them any differently than the Bible teaches Christians. Start with the Ten Commandments and compare the similarities.

 

Jihad passages in the Quran

 

Here's a start. I'm the dreaded "night poster" now with friends coming over tonight, so it'll be a while before I can devote any time to this.

[Uh-huh 0]

Jihad passages in the Quran

 

Here's a start. I'm the dreaded "night poster" now with friends coming over tonight, so it'll be a while before I can devote any time to this.

Here's another comparison... somewhat biased but interesting nonetheless.

[Red White and Blue 81]

IMO the biggest difference between Christianity and Islam these days is that many more of the world's Muslims live in poverty under oppressive regimes, and are therefore more susceptible to a radical perversion of their faith. If the United States were a third world country, I think many more people would be attracted to the kind of "Christianity" that people like Pat Robertson preach and we'd end up with something not unlike the enemy we are fighting today.

 

My two cents.

[kpbuckeye 3]

Fastfish doesn't "grasp" or "think" anything.

 

He just repeats the right-wingnut talking points for the day.

 

As you said, most people that aren't in W's backpocket suspected what this war was all about since before Day 1.

 

 

and you just repeat the left-wingnut talking points for the day. whats the difference?

 

 

Over 80% of the country were in favor of the war in the begining. should I post a poll from them or would you like to take your foot out of your mouth? Unless of course the 80% were all in W's backpocket?

[hoytdwow 202]

Over 80% of the country were in favor of the war in the begining, before they realized all the WMD crap was BS.

[TimmySmith 2,783]

The Bible commands to love your enemies and to help the poor. Bush does neither, in fact actively working oppositionally.

 

Exactly, it's good to see that you depart from the mainstream left's opinion that Bush's decisions are guided by the Bible and religion, and are really guided by his concern for the American population as a whole.

[Red White and Blue 81]

and you just repeat the left-wingnut talking points for the day. whats the difference?

Over 80% of the country were in favor of the war in the begining. should I post a poll from them or would you like to take your foot out of your mouth? Unless of course the 80% were all in W's backpocket?

 

I think a lot of those people either feel duped or they're disgusted with the halfarsed way the war has been waged. At least, a lot of high profile conservative pundits (Andrew Sullivan, William Buckley, Geoge Will, etc.) who initially supported the war now either regret their decision or they've declared the war a failure.

[Voltaire 5,534]

I think a lot of those people either feel duped or they're disgusted with the halfarsed way the war has been waged. At least, a lot of high profile conservative pundits (Andrew Sullivan, William Buckley, Geoge Will, etc.) who initially supported the war now either regret their decision or they've declared the war a failure.

 

There's a difference between old school thinking conservatives and the retards. The Iraq war drives a wedge between these two groups.

[What is the deal? 1]

Am I confused or do I see people comparing Christianity and the Muslim religion and acting like their one and the same.

 

There is a big difference between Joel Osteen and Osama Bin Laden. If you guys can't see that then your confused.

 

I was raised Catholic, but at this time I am not involved with organized religion. However, I can still see the difference between one religion that preaches tolerance and another that preaches hate.

[Voltaire 5,534]

Am I confused or do I see people comparing Christianity and the Muslim religion and acting like their one and the same.

 

There is a big difference between Joel Osteen and Osama Bin Laden. If you guys can't see that then your confused.

 

I was raised Catholic, but at this time I am not involved with organized religion. However, I can still see the difference between one religion that preaches tolerance and another that preaches hate.

 

Christians had their problems in the past when they spent 200 years killing each other in reformation times. But that's pretty much done. Even the most rabid ones like Pat Robertson haven't killed anyone, just think out loud about it. Hopefully Islam eventually gets tired of killling themselves off too but they're just 25 years into the venting process and may need another 200-300 years.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

Jihad passages in the Quran

 

Here's a start. I'm the dreaded "night poster" now with friends coming over tonight, so it'll be a while before I can devote any time to this.

I did not go through all of the passages quoted, but the first two are interesting:

 

[2.178]...retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain... [2.179] ...there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.

Excerpt K 2:190-191

 

Sure sounds like guarding yourself and retaliating for transgressions against them

 

 

Set 2, Count 3+4 [2.190]

...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

 

Again, if you read the context, this is a retaliation scenario. If they fight you, then you shall fight them with all of the power of Allah.

 

Both of these sound similar to passages in the Bible. Not sure how you are going to convince me with this sort of thing.

 

I was raised Catholic, but at this time I am not involved with organized religion. However, I can still see the difference between one religion that preaches tolerance and another that preaches hate.

 

Show us where the "religion" teaches hate. That is all I am asking for.

 

All that I have seen is that there are nutjobs (and there are a lot of them) who are twisting the words in the Qur'an to suit their hateful message and use it as a rallying cry. Same thing happened during the Crusades with the Bible.

 

The religions are very different, but the point is that there are basic philosophies (think Ten Commandments) that each shares. It is the bastardization of these philosophies by the whackjobs that messes this up.

[What is the deal? 1]

Show us where the "religion" teaches hate. That is all I am asking for.

 

All that I have seen is that there are nutjobs (and there are a lot of them) who are twisting the words in the Qur'an to suit their hateful message and use it as a rallying cry. Same thing happened during the Crusades with the Bible.

 

The religions are very different, but the point is that there are basic philosophies (think Ten Commandments) that each shares. It is the bastardization of these philosophies by the whackjobs that messes this up.

OK, whatever I'll rephrase. There was a time when Christianity spread hatred- just ask the Pagans. Anyways Christians have evolved and understand that the Pagans (what few are left) can have a place in the world now just like the Muslims, Jews, etc... The extremist Christians that don't agree with this do not have power they once had. One reason is because most predominantly Christian Soceities have seperation of church and state the other is because those extremists are just that- extreme they are just like radicals on either side of the fence. They are a minority.

 

The Muslims have not evolved since the days of religious wars. One of the main reasons is because they handcuff themselves economically by basing their entire commerce off of Allah. This creates a large seperation between the rich and the poor (exactly what Liberals are against in US). The people with religious clout are the same people with Political Power and power in business. They want to keep that money and power so they corrupt their Muslim religion into spreading hate so the lower class poor people can focus on hating Western Civilization rather than hating the rich/powerful people that are holding them down.

 

The core of the religions may not be much different. However, the practice of the religions in today's world is much different. I am not sure what the exact numbers are, but it sure seems to me like the equation above has led to less Christian nutcases and more Muslim Nutbags.

 

So what's the answer? I would say spreading examples of prosperous democracy. The fundamental issue at hand to me seems to be the seperation of church and state which I am for despite being a very spiritual person and what some would call a NeoCon. If there is no seperation between political and religious power than those countries may end up corrupted by the power of a political/religious mixture sooner or later.

[Q.Lazzarus 0]

Christians had their problems in the past when they spent 200 years killing each other in reformation times. But that's pretty much done. Even the most rabid ones like Pat Robertson haven't killed anyone, just think out loud about it. Hopefully Islam eventually gets tired of killling themselves off too but they're just 25 years into the venting process and may need another 200-300 years.

 

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

[Force of Two 0]

I assume you are alluding to the War in Iraq. Not that Bush actually killed someone.

 

If so, the Bible doesn't preclude appropriate times of war :

 

For instance : "For everything there is an appointed time... A time to kill, and a time to heal ... a time for war, and a time for peace." (Eccl. 3)

 

But my question relates to Torridjoe and his belief that, if the Bible is correct, Bush is going to Hell. I'm wondering why he feels that way.

 

I just felt like I was in the middle of a late 60's early 70's song

[torridjoe 48]

Jihad passages in the Quran

 

Here's a start. I'm the dreaded "night poster" now with friends coming over tonight, so it'll be a while before I can devote any time to this.

 

Yoel Natan? That's your source for the Qu'ran? A near-Zionist who thinks all Muslims should be immediately deported from the US, and that Japanese internment was the right thing to do--and we should amend the Constitution to allow it?

 

[torridjoe 48]

and you just repeat the left-wingnut talking points for the day. whats the difference?

Over 80% of the country were in favor of the war in the begining. should I post a poll from them or would you like to take your foot out of your mouth? Unless of course the 80% were all in W's backpocket?

 

If you mean "before we began the war," you're not correct. Pew pegged prewar support at 59%.

 

If you mean "after we started it," you're still not correct. Gallup shows early support around 70%, not 80%. And that's always the case once it starts.

 

 

 

Exactly, it's good to see that you depart from the mainstream left's opinion that Bush's decisions are guided by the Bible and religion, and are really guided by his concern for the American population as a whole.

 

I believe the charge is that HE believes they are, not whether they actually are or not.

[GobbleDog 1,020]

Long term benefits outweigh short term costs... justified through years of serious violations....

 

You disagree on both parts. Yes, we've been down this road before. And I'm still right.

[What is the deal? 1]

Long term benefits outweigh short term costs... justified through years of serious violations....

That's the bottomline

[kpbuckeye 3]

If you mean "before we began the war," you're not correct. Pew pegged prewar support at 59%.

 

If you mean "after we started it," you're still not correct. Gallup shows early support around 70%, not 80%. And that's always the case once it starts.

I believe the charge is that HE believes they are, not whether they actually are or not.

 

 

perfect example of what a nimrod you are. does that 10 percent bother you? Well guess what, its 75 which makes me right and you wrong yet again. get over it little man. geeze.

 

Support for war in Iraq has eroded. When asked if the country had to do it over again, nearly six in ten (59%) said they would support a war against Iraq, while 40% say they would oppose it. In April 2003 polling by Zogby International, 75% supported the war then underway, while 22% opposed.

 

 

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=721

[Brick Tamland 0]

perfect example of what a nimrod you are. does that 10 percent bother you? Well guess what, its 75 which makes me right and you wrong yet again. get over it little man. geeze.

 

Support for war in Iraq has eroded. When asked if the country had to do it over again, nearly six in ten (59%) said they would support a war against Iraq, while 40% say they would oppose it. In April 2003 polling by Zogby International, 75% supported the war then underway, while 22% opposed.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=721

 

As a chickenhawk, do you look fondly on the days of 75% when Americans actually believed an administration wouldn't blatantly lie to them in order to invade a sovereign nation?

[torridjoe 48]

perfect example of what a nimrod you are. does that 10 percent bother you? Well guess what, its 75 which makes me right and you wrong yet again. get over it little man. geeze.

 

Support for war in Iraq has eroded. When asked if the country had to do it over again, nearly six in ten (59%) said they would support a war against Iraq, while 40% say they would oppose it. In April 2003 polling by Zogby International, 75% supported the war then underway, while 22% opposed.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=721

 

You're the one who said 80, which was not correct. It's not 10 percent off, it's 21 percent. 80-59 = 21. Follow?

 

Why are you still reciting figures from AFTER the war started?

[Snuff 10]

Why are you still reciting figures from AFTER the war started?

 

torrid, you yourself have done that many times. tsk tsk

[parrot 790]

Well guess what, its 75 which makes me right and you wrong yet again.

75>80

 

Buckeye math for you right there folks.

[wiffleball 4,797]

Poll: 70% believe Saddam, 9-11 link

WASHINGTON (AP) — Nearly seven in 10 Americans believe it is likely that ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the Sept. 11 attacks, says a poll out almost two years after the terrorists' strike against this country.

 

Sixty-nine percent in a Washington Post poll published Saturday said they believe it is likely the Iraqi leader was personally involved in the attacks carried out by al-Qaeda. A majority of Democrats, Republicans and independents believe it's likely Saddam was involved.

 

The belief in the connection persists even though there has been no proof of a link between the two.

 

President Bush and members of his administration suggested a link between the two in the months before the war in Iraq. Claims of possible links have never been proven, however.

 

The president frequently has called the Iraq war an important centerpiece in the United States' war on terror. But some members of the administration have said recently they don't believe there is a direct link.

____________________________________________

 

This was from 3 years ago. Further back than that, there was a poll where something like 82% of the American public believed that the terrorists on 9/11 were Iraqi. (Even though shortly after 9/11 we had the names, pictures, and nationalities of all 19 printed in every newspaper in the world.)

 

- That's what happens when every time you say "Iraq", you follow it up with "terrorist". - Check out Bush's address to the world about invading Iraq. He said "terrorist", "weapon" or "terror" something like 56 times. He mentioned "liberation" once. - People say GWB is stupid, but really, the American people have proven to be pretty focking stupid themselves.

[torridjoe 48]

torrid, you yourself have done that many times. tsk tsk

 

Not in an attempt to establish public sentiment BEFORE the war started.

 

- That's what happens when every time you say "Iraq", you follow it up with "terrorist". - Check out Bush's address to the world about invading Iraq. He said "terrorist", "weapon" or "terror" something like 56 times. He mentioned "liberation" once. - People say GWB is stupid, but really, the American people have proven to be pretty focking stupid themselves.

 

Careful, there. All I did was call Bush voters willfully ignorant, and I got raked over the coals. "Focking stupid" is a couple steps down the intellect ladder, I'd say.

[Snuff 10]

Not in an attempt to establish public sentiment BEFORE the war started.

 

You have compared the two before, yes.

[torridjoe 48]

You have compared the two before, yes.

 

What are you trying to say? That I used post-action numbers in order to state what the numbers were pre-action? BS.

[Snuff 10]

What are you trying to say? That I used post-action numbers in order to state what the numbers were pre-action? BS.

 

Oh, is that what I said huh?

[wiffleball 4,797]

Not in an attempt to establish public sentiment BEFORE the war started.

Careful, there. All I did was call Bush voters willfully ignorant, and I got raked over the coals. "Focking stupid" is a couple steps down the intellect ladder, I'd say.

 

No. When the names, photos and country of origin are published. When the press reports repeatedly that all of the terrorists came from Saudi. When OBL himself takes credit on behalf of Al Queso. - And the American people STILL think that Iraq was directly responsible for 09/11? that's focking STUPID.

 

 

...and great marketing...

[kpbuckeye 3]

75>80

 

Buckeye math for you right there folks.

 

where did you go to school fucknuts?

I was always taught to round up at mid point.

try reading the premise of the quote before making an arse of yourself.

 

 

You're the one who said 80, which was not correct. It's not 10 percent off, it's 21 percent. 80-59 = 21. Follow?

 

Why are you still reciting figures from AFTER the war started?

 

 

torrid 70%

 

kpbuckeye 80%

 

=10% difference.

 

why? because that is what Uh-duh was refering to. hence my reference.

[Brick Tamland 0]

where did you go to school fucknuts?

I was always taught to round up at mid point.

try reading the premise of the quote before making an arse of yourself.

 

I read it again, and I'm now dumber than I was 30 seconds ago.

 

You didn't answer my question from before:

 

Do you chickenhawk poosays look fondly on a time when 75% of Americans trusted our president enough to believe he wouldn't lie to justify a pre-emptive war?

[parrot 790]

I was always taught to round up at mid point.

 

Rounding up 5% on a poll is hardly the same as decimal rounding you stupid fock.

 

You said "over 80%" then posted a poll that showed 75% as proof that "makes me right ". Even you aren't so stupid that you can't see the stupidity in that statement.