Dirty hits by Clark and Nakamura

[Jarvis Basnight 119]

Great...the position to make a form tackle means absolutely nothing.

The guy wanting to lay a big hit rather than use a form tackle is not a sign that it was dirty or illegal.

 

wtf?

[jgcrawfish 232]

I'm done with this thread. I'm done trying to convince two idiots that they are indeed idiots. There's nothing idiot proof to a sufficiently motivated idiot.

[t.j 35]

you sir, are obtuse. if you can't see that his head was turned to the left, you need to have your eyes checked, or you are blatantly stupid, or you are biased in someway...i personally vote for all 3.

 

You're a fool. Look at the initial point of contact. 11 seconds into this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQlmBHY-ALY

You can see Clark's ENTIRE Steelers logo. Right AFTER the contact, Clark's head turns to the left because it has nowhere else to go.

 

Anyone denying that Clark led with the crown of his helmet is absolutely clueless.

[Sho Nuff 720]

WRONG

 

You need to watch it a few more times or learn where the crown of the helmet is...the side of the helmet is not the crown.

[Durtee 0]

From what I watched, he certainly looked like he was trying to land a shoulder to helmet blow, but just missed and landed with his helmet.

 

If the hit could be summed up in one sentence, then I think you got it. Unfortunately 6 pages worth of BS proves that it can't be. I do agree that he wasn't intending on making helmet to helmet contact, but it is pretty obvious that he purposely went high on the ball carrier instead of low and drive through the runner.

 

The part that is amusing to me is that the one's who think the hit was clean are acting like it wasn't even close to a dirty/ illegal hit.. really? 6 pages so far on this forum, every sports network/ paper in America debating it and numerous other forums that are having the same conversation. Just type in Clark or McGahee on any search engine. If it was so obviously clean and legal, then there wouldn't be so much debate about it. Also, I do agree that if McGahee wouldn't have been taken off on a stretcher then it wouldn't be discussed as much, but I also think that it is a very silly point to try to make.....After all McGahee was taken off on a stretcher.

[TD Ryan2 316]

Great...the position to make a form tackle means absolutely nothing.

The guy wanting to lay a big hit rather than use a form tackle

 

it is good that you'll at least recognize that there is a difference between "tackling" and "laying a big hit".

 

you know, with Obama walking across the reflecting pool and all today, maybe we can find and start out on our common grounds.

[t.j 35]

That FACT that there was no flag on the play

 

Yes obviuosly that is a fact. THat is why I started this thread.

 

, and the league is stating it was not illegal pretty much shows it is a fact and you are only spewing ignorance right now.

 

Do you foolishly believe everything Pereira tells you?

[Voice_Of_Reason 0]

Proof right here that you're wrong:

• you pvssie
  
• you Steeler hater
  
• you pansy
  
• go play ballet
  

I don't care who won. I wouldn't care if Balt won.

 

What I saw was him bring his right arm in to launch with his shoulder. Had he been trying to land with his helmet (from my experience playing the game) he wouldn't have tucked the arm, he would have had his arms out in a wrap up motion.

[Sho Nuff 720]

wtf?

 

WTF is right...im talking about is the hit legal or dirty.

That he could have used a form tackle is irrelevant to that.

Did he lead only with the helmet trying to just make helmet to helmet contact? No, not even close. The helmet to helmet contact was incidental.

[Sho Nuff 720]

You're a fool. Look at the initial point of contact. 11 seconds into this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQlmBHY-ALY

You can see Clark's ENTIRE Steelers logo. Right AFTER the contact, Clark's head turns to the left because it has nowhere else to go.

 

Anyone denying that Clark led with the crown of his helmet is absolutely clueless.

 

Umm...your video just showed he was not leading with the crown of his helmet actually. The logo is about where contact is made...just about at the front of the logo. His head turns right before contact, not right after.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Yes obviuosly that is a fact. THat is why I started this thread.

Do you foolishly believe everything Pereira tells you?

 

No, but I believe he and just about every other analyst and former player more than I believe some whiner on the internet who has no clue what a spear is and where the crown of the helmet is.

[Jarvis Basnight 119]

WTF is right...im talking about is the hit legal or dirty.

That he could have used a form tackle is irrelevant to that.

Did he lead only with the helmet trying to just make helmet to helmet contact? No, not even close. The helmet to helmet contact was incidental.

 

Well then we're talking about totally different things. I've never stated the hit was illegal by nfl standards. See my posts.

 

I'm talking about how stupid the style is - arms down, head down - and how the league should take a serious look at how some of these DB's are "tackling". Not all of them, some of them.

[Voice_Of_Reason 0]

If the hit could be summed up in one sentence, then I think you got it. Unfortunately 6 pages worth of BS proves that it can't be. I do agree that he wasn't intending on making helmet to helmet contact, but it is pretty obvious that he purposely went high on the ball carrier instead of low and drive through the runner.

 

The part that is amusing to me is that the one's who think the hit was clean are acting like it wasn't even close to a dirty/ illegal hit.. really? 6 pages so far on this forum, every sports network/ paper in America debating it and numerous other forums that are having the same conversation. Just type in Clark or McGahee on any search engine. If it was so obviously clean and legal, then there wouldn't be so much debate about it. Also, I do agree that if McGahee wouldn't have been taken off on a stretcher then it wouldn't be discussed as much, but I also think that it is a very silly point to try to make.....After all McGahee was taken off on a stretcher.

I think the fact that he launched himself rather than performing a proper tackle is indicitive of a culture that loves WWF style antics. Big hits, flashy plays, ooooooooh types moments to excite the weak minded, low esteem, undeducated masses of America.

 

Regardless of what is right, our culture teaches our kids, that a 10 second highlight video is much better than a proper tackle and drive.

[Snuff 10]

Ok, I can see no one in this thread is going to have their mind changed on the matter. Now what I would really like to know, is how this hit ended the Ravens season.

[Durtee 0]

I think the fact that he launched himself rather than performing a proper tackle is indicitive of a culture that loves WWF style antics. Big hits, flashy plays, ooooooooh types moments to excite the weak minded, low esteem, undeducated masses of America.

 

Regardless of what is right, our culture teaches our kids, that a 10 second highlight video is much better than a proper tackle and drive.

 

OMG you really are the Voice of Reason aren't you?

[parrot 789]

I do agree that he wasn't intending on making helmet to helmet contact, but it is pretty obvious that he purposely went high on the ball carrier instead of low and drive through the runner.

 

I don't think this hit was illegal, whether it was "dirty" can be debated ad nauseam. One thing that's obvious though is that Clark is a guy who likes to go high, i.e. he's a headhunter. Kudos to him for being fearless and willing to lay to those kind of hits, because obviously they're hard on him too. But part of the reason football coaches teach good form tackling is to protect the tackler, and if Ryan Clark someday breaks his neck trying to lay one of these hits I won't have much sympathy for him.

 

And to anyone saying he somehow forced to used this technique due to McGahee's size, he used the exact same technique on Wes Welker.

[Jarvis Basnight 119]

I think the fact that he launched himself rather than performing a proper tackle is indicitive of a culture that loves WWF style antics. Big hits, flashy plays, ooooooooh types moments to excite the weak minded, low esteem, undeducated masses of America.

 

Here's an ooooooh hit that's perfectly legal.

 

[Snuff 10]

 

I don't think this hit was illegal, whether it was "dirty" can be debated ad nauseam. One thing that's obvious though is that Clark is a guy who likes to go high, i.e. he's a headhunter. Kudos to him for being fearless and willing to lay to those kind of hits, because obviously they're hard on him too. But part of the reason football coaches teach good form tackling is to protect the tackler, and if Ryan Clark someday breaks his neck trying to lay one of these hits I won't have much sympathy for him.

 

And to anyone saying he somehow forced to used this technique due to McGahee's size, he used the exact same technique on Wes Welker.

 

I believe Welker was going across the field to some extent. McGahee was running full speed down the middle of the field. He also weighs a bit more than Welker. Show me anyone...anyone, that can make that tackle by driving through the person. Not gonna happen.

[Voice_Of_Reason 0]

OMG you really are the Voice of Reason aren't you?

Why yes, yes I am.

[Phurfur 70]

Revised, whacked out the end stuff:

 

I'd rather have phillybear use a horse needle to inject aids in my 3 inch pencil of love than root for the Eagles. Then again, I am an idiot who enjoys muzak, thinks soccer is a sport, and chooses to live in a town which Billy Joel called a shiothole 27 years ago, so I am doomed to a life of faylyure. I know now that the Eagles will forever be the Washington Generals of the NFL. The Eagles secondary is standing outside of Cardinals headquarters wearing leather bikinis, handcuffs, and lubed asses hoping to get dominated by Fitz again.

 

Is this still going? He did not lead with his helmet - legal hit - end of thread!

 

and no, i didn't read any of this thread.

[Snuff 10]

Because had a penalty been thrown, the Ravens keep the ball, plus 15 yards and are still "in it". That's not to say that the win or not though.

 

Exactly, no one knows. Plus, it wasn't a penalty. Maybe dirty in some of your minds, but not a penalty/illegal.

[parrot 789]

I believe Welker was going across the field to some extent. McGahee was running full speed down the middle of the field. He also weighs a bit more than Welker. Show me anyone...anyone, that can make that tackle by driving through the person. Not gonna happen.

I brought up Welker in response to those suggesting Clark had to use extraordinary tactics due to McGahee's size. The fact that he hit Welker - who, as you say, is much smaller - the same way would suggest that he just likes hitting people that way.

 

I'm not sure what you're saying here... are you suggesting that Clark couldn't have brought down McGahee with a proper form tackle, or just that a proper form tackle wouldn't have had the fireworks that hit did?

 

I'm pretty sure Troy Polamalu could have made a good driving form tackle there and brought down McGahee. I'm pretty sure Ryan Clark could have as well. As already mentioned, he was in perfect position to do exactly that.

[Melissa Stark 1]

Spearing shouldn't even be brought into this.

 

The old basic spear was when a Qb was diving with the ball and defenders flying up and leading with their helmets, hitting them on the way down, thus the QB slide is used to protect them now.

 

The other was when the ball carriers forward progress was stopped while still on their feet, when a defender came flying into the pile. Now the refs can stop the play.

 

 

THe latest is defenders leading with their helmets at a Wr who is not looking.

 

The Form tackle is useless in the Clark play anyway.

 

McGahee was already cutting back to his right from were Clark was coming from.

 

Clark clearly over judged his position for the tackle, had to turn back to his left, McGahee started to drop, Clark was hit either at his temple to ear hole.

Dangerous, yes. Illegal-No

[parrot 789]

The Form tackle is useless in the Clark play anyway.

 

McGahee was already cutting back to his right from were Clark was coming from.

 

Actually McGahee was turning to his left - upfield, parallel to the hashmarks - right into Clark until he ducked off at the last second. Clark was in perfect position to make a form tackle.

 

Backside view.

[Jarvis Basnight 119]

The Form tackle is useless in the Clark play anyway.

 

McGahee was already cutting back to his right from were Clark was coming from.

 

Clark clearly over judged his position for the tackle, had to turn back to his left, McGahee started to drop, Clark was hit either at his temple to ear hole.

 

Completely disagree with all of this. McGahee made no kind of cut whatsoever, he was just bracing for the hit. Clark chose to go high, but could have chosen to tackle correctly.

[parrot 789]

Here's an ooooooh hit that's perfectly legal.

 

 

Interesting, almost the exact same play.

[jgcrawfish 232]

are you guys still throwing fruit to the monkeys??? move along, leave the thread to the whiners...

[listen2me 23 1,873]

If players from back in the day saw this thread they would laugh in shame.

[NewbieJr 541]

Bump

[parrot 789]

If players from back in the day saw this thread they would laugh in shame.

 

Lingering effects from concussions is one of the biggest health problems faced by ex-players. I'm betting a lot of "players from back in the day" are starting to understand the wisdom in protecting players' heads, or would be if their brains weren't scrambled like yesterday's eggs.

[Franknbeans 46]

Lingering effects from concussions is one of the biggest health problems faced by ex-players. I'm betting a lot of "players from back in the day" are starting to understand the wisdom in protecting players' heads.

McGahee thinks you're soft

[NewbieJr 541]

Lingering effects from concussions is one of the biggest health problems faced by ex-players. I'm betting a lot of "players from back in the day" are starting to understand the wisdom in protecting players' heads.

You know when they didn't have many head injuries? When they wore leather helmets.

 

If you made it dangerous to the player leading with the crown of his head, he'd stop doing it. Ever watch vintage football film? Players got drug down or hit with a shoulder into the midsection. They didn't use their bodies as torpedoes because they would have been just as hurt as the player they were launching into. They didn't want to catch a knee to teh head, either, so they kept their eyes on what they were hitting.

[parrot 789]

McGahee thinks you're soft

 

And he's right!

[TD Ryan2 316]

Here's an ooooooh hit that's perfectly legal.

 

 

 

textbook.

[Jarvis Basnight 119]

If players from back in the day saw this thread they would laugh in shame.

Players from "back in the day" would get lit up in the NFL today. Jack Lambert would be form tackling Brandon Jacobs, or he'd just get run over.

[t.j 35]

I take back what I said about the crown of the helmet. I didn't realize the crown was the back of the top of the head, I thought it was the front of the top of the head. I'm a dope. Dan, now I understand why you were "not seeing it".

 

Nevertheless, Clark does clearly make initial contact with the front of the top of his head (about an inch to the right of center), not his shoulder, not the side of his head. It's worth noting that, just as the rule does not specify that the offensive player has to be hit in the head, nor does it specify that the offensive player must be defenseless, the rule also does not specify what part of the helmet must be used in order to draw a penalty.

Rule 12, Section 2, Article 8(g) of the NFL Official Playing Rules: "(The league prohibits)... using any part of a player's helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/'hairline' parts) or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet is impermissible against any opponent, game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protect those players who are in virtually defenseless postures."

 

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t193/si...k_McGahee-1.gif (warning: 2 MB gif)

 

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t193/si...r222/RC_WM_.png

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t193/si...222/RC_WM_0.png

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t193/si...222/RC_WM_1.png

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t193/si...222/RC_WM_2.png

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t193/si...222/RC_WM_3.png

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t193/si...222/RC_WM_4.png

 

The above make clear some corrections to statements from earlier in the thread:

-Contrary to what I said, Clark did not use the crown of his helmet, he used the front of the top of his helmet, slightly to the right of center.

-Contrary to what some have said, Clark did not make initial contact with his shoulder.

-Contrary to what some have said, Clark did not turn his head before contact.

-Contrary to what some have said, Clark did not turn his body before contact.

[Law 241]

...anyone that doesn't think hit was 100% pure football is a bedwetting momma's boy.

 

 

If the shoe fits!

 

[t.j 35]

An excellent article warning about the same problem (lack of enforcement when players spear) from almost 10 years ago:

http://www.americanfootballmonthly.com/Sub...9;99/spear.html

It's sad that the league hasn't made real progress in cracking down on this.

[Law 241]

Good thing no one speared then uh?

 

[MTSkiBum 1,620]

How the hell did this thread hit 7 pages?

 

 

I know i am part of the problem now, but i wanted a free post.