Game of Thrones (no spoilers)

[IGotWorms 4,058]

I hadn't considered Margery? but no way the Lannisters let that happen.

I think you're right about Tywin - he'd be "steward" or something like that until the rightful Lannister heir was "old enough".

 

but imagine that - Margery becomes queen in Cersei's place? huh - that's a keen twist.

 

RE: Cersei

I hear you Worms/Maid - I get that she's suffered her own miseries and that it's "nice' to see her regain her chops a bit.

But from a TV viewers standpoint - she hasn't had a redeeming moment yet the way Jamie or the Hound has. Agreed that Martin does a GREAT job of humanizing everyone - keeping it real/believable with human motives and behaviors instead of archetypical black/white characters.

But there are a few that just haven't redeemed themselves in any way:

Cersei

Lyssa

Joffrey

The Mountain

Theon's torturer

 

even bad guys like Tywin and Littlefinger have some respectability.

We know that Cersei is disturbed that she has raised a total sociopath, and that he is definitely going to make an awful, tyrranical king if left to his own devices.

 

We also know that she is every bit as cunningand shrewd as her father and the other Lannister men, but that she's never recognized or taken seriously because she is a woman, and this has had a big impact on her psyche.

 

It's not a lot but I think those details do humanize her a bit.

[Quickolas1 80]

So the succession rules to Westeros are set up to have a male ruler no matter what? Im not arguing, i just am asking if this was something covered in the books.

 

I always kind of thought Stannis' claim to the throne was based on Joffrey's age, not his status as Robert's brother. IOW Stannis was attempting to become king on an interim basis, with an eye toward Joffrey mysteriously disappearing after the coronation.

 

you missed a big plot point

[southcarolina 166]

 

you missed a big plot point

I have a history of that. Care to elaborate?

[IGotWorms 4,058]

So the succession rules to Westeros are set up to have a male ruler no matter what? Im not arguing, i just am asking if this was something covered in the books.

 

I always kind of thought Stannis' claim to the throne was based on Joffrey's age, not his status as Robert's brother. IOW Stannis was attempting to become king on an interim basis, with an eye toward Joffrey mysteriously disappearing after the coronation.

I thought Stannis' claim to the throne was based on a belief that Joffrey isn't Robert's son at all. Right?

[southcarolina 166]

I thought Stannis' claim to the throne was based on a belief that Joffrey isn't Robert's son at all. Right?

I thought Ned was the only one who knew that.F0ck i thought i had a handle on all this....

[MedStudent 56]

I thought Ned was the only one who knew that.F0ck i thought i had a handle on all this....

 

Everybody in the kingdom has heard the rumors.

[southcarolina 166]

Everybody in the kingdom has heard the rumors.

Except me.

[MedStudent 56]

I agree with Td on just about everything. I think Bran is the Stark future star. I love the hound. Most multilayered character along with Jaimie.

 

I hate Sansa. Dumbest biotch on the show and she threw her sister under the bus.

And what's up with the youngest Stark? Are they ever going to give him a personality or is he going to get killed off first. I wouldn't mind seeing him, Sansa and mother stark get killed off. Then it would leave the three best Starks and Jon snowe.

[Quickolas1 80]

Stannis sent letters to all around the kingdom saying he is the rightful heir because King Joffrey, Princess Myrcella, Prince Tommen (in that order by age) are not Robert's. Based on Ned sending him a letter.

 

When the Night's Watch got the letter their response (books) was basically "whaaaaaaatever, we don't care about any of that."

 

The generally accepted succession order is:

1. son

2. daughter

3. brother

4. sister

5. wife (if at all...?)

 

it has to be... because they married Sansa to Tyrion because they think she is next. They all know Robb got married and don't care about his wife vs Sansa.

 

Bastards need not apply.

 

So if Stannis got off'ed... the "trueborn heir" right now would be... Shireen. He has no sons.

Shireen is Stannis' burned-face daughter reading to Davos in the dungeon.

Of course, that's assuming a Targaryan isn't around from the ousted Mad King bloodline.

 

Cersei has one prominent redeeming quality... love for her children.

[MedStudent 56]

 

Bastards need not apply.

 

 

You sure? Why are they killing all the bastards off?

[OldMaid 2,130]

So the succession rules to Westeros are set up to have a male ruler no matter what? Im not arguing, i just am asking if this was something covered in the books.

 

I always kind of thought Stannis' claim to the throne was based on Joffrey's age, not his status as Robert's brother. IOW Stannis was attempting to become king on an interim basis, with an eye toward Joffrey mysteriously disappearing after the coronation.

Quickolas is right. The succession goes as: Male issued children first, if none, then the next oldest brother to the King would inherit the throne. Women are the last resort, unless the heir is a minor, then they can rule as Queen Regent.

 

 

Stannis knew the truth about Cercei and Jamie- that Robert's kids were not actual Baratheons, which is why he made a claim to the throne. That is also why there was a "purge" of all of Robert's bastards. Technically, they would have had a legitimate claim to the throne, as well.

[Quickolas1 80]

they tried to kill all of robert's bastards because they all had dark hair and could have exposed the lie.

 

Cersei loving and protecting her children (awwww...)

[OldMaid 2,130]

they tried to kill all of robert's bastards because they all had dark hair and could have exposed the lie.

 

Cersei loving and protecting her children (awwww...)

 

Not so much... Remember when Ned took down Robert's last words and he changed the wording... he did that so it would include any of his male children.

[IGotWorms 4,058]

they tried to kill all of robert's bastards because they all had dark hair and could have exposed the lie.

This is correct, at least from the TV series.

[OldMaid 2,130]

This is correct, at least from the TV series.

I'm pretty sure the changing of the wording in Robert's will is portrayed in both the book and the show.

[TD Ryan2 316]

yup. Good call OldMaid.

 

but Quickolas brings up a good point about the "hair of black" angle and the Lannisters wanting b@st@rds dead - was Tywin in on this slaughtering or was it just Cersei purging evidence of her and Jaimie.

 

Claim to throne or not, those black haired kids added proof to Joff's incestuous origins and they were dead anyways.

 

After all, it wasn't Stannis trying to kill 'em - it was always the Lannisters - and they had 2 very good reasons (at least in their minds).

 

I'm thinking Joffrey is dead in this season Finale - maybe it's a Scorsese type montage where all three cursed get dead - Rob, Balon, and Joff. It would make for one helluva' finale - and with that, I'll predict it all happens in episode 9, not 10. Seems that Thrones makes the second to last episode more of a finale.

[OldMaid 2,130]

yup. Good call OldMaid.

 

but Quickolas brings up a good point about the "hair of black" angle and the Lannisters wanting b@st@rds dead - was Tywin in on this slaughtering or was it just Cersei purging evidence of her and Jaimie.

 

Claim to throne or not, those black haired kids added proof to Joff's incestuous origins and they were dead anyways.

 

After all, it wasn't Stannis trying to kill 'em - it was always the Lannisters - and they had 2 very good reasons (at least in their minds).

 

I'm thinking Joffrey is dead in this season Finale - maybe it's a Scorsese type montage where all three cursed get dead - Rob, Balon, and Joff. It would make for one helluva' finale - and with that, I'll predict it all happens in episode 9, not 10. Seems that Thrones makes the second to last episode more of a finale.

 

Maybe, maybe not. After all, When Jon Arryn found out, they didn't automatically start killing them. It wasn't until Robert died, that they started to kill the bastards.

[TD Ryan2 316]

Maybe, maybe not. After all, When Jon Arryn found out, they didn't automatically start killing them. It wasn't until Robert died, that they started to kill the bastards.

ohhh OldMaid - yer no Cersie - John Arryn was the beginning of the "purge". Arryn was the source of the leak. They killed Arryn and only after learning from him realized how much "water" was in the boat.

Killing Arryn was step 1.

Mopping up the rest was step 2.

 

it was all about containment.

[OldMaid 2,130]

ohhh OldMaid - yer no Cersie - John Arryn was the beginning of the "purge". Arryn was the source of the leak. They killed Arryn and only after learning from him realized how much "water" was in the boat.

Killing Arryn was step 1.

Mopping up the rest was step 2.

 

it was all about containment.

I'm afraid I can't comment on this as it would contain spoilers.

[Quickolas1 80]

Not so much... Remember when Ned took down Robert's last words and he changed the wording... he did that so it would include any of his male children.

 

he changes the will to say rightful heir... which is Stannis (in Ned's eyes)... which is why he sends Stannis the letter detailing the truth behind Cersei's children.

 

if bastards have legit claims to the throne... then Stannis' argument holds no water. bastards are the lowest of the low.

 

Cersei would have been killing bastards long before Robert died if they had been an imminent threat to her babies.

[TD Ryan2 316]

I'm afraid I can't comment on this as it would contain spoilers.

I appreciate that then. Thanks!

[OldMaid 2,130]

feel free to post the wording. does it say "child"?

 

if bastards have legit claims to the throne... then Stannis' argument holds no water. bastards are the lowest of the low.

Ned replaced the words "My son Joffery" with "my trueborn heir".

 

 

Yes, I admit that it is highly unlikely that a bastard would be raised to the throne, but it IS possible. There have been countless coups throughout the history of the world that has seen unlikely people seated on the throne. The people disliked Stannis so much, that Renly fought to take his claim. And, after all, Robert got the throne by warring for it. When you're fighting for something so important, it's best not to leave anything to chance.

[southcarolina 166]

Show me an attractive succubi any day of the week and I'll fall all over myself for her.

You should watch Lost Girl then

[The Moz 69]

You should watch Lost Girl then

Because of the hot chicks on it I want to like that show - but just can't watch the entire episode.

[southcarolina 166]

Because of the hot chicks on it I want to like that show - but just can't watch the entire episode.

I make it thru entire episodes precisely because of the hawt chicks. You just never know when they are going to cram another girl on girl kissyface scene in there.

[rallo 136]

Quickolas is right. The succession goes as: Male issued children first, if none, then the next oldest brother to the King would inherit the throne. Women are the last resort, unless the heir is a minor, then they can rule as Queen Regent.

 

 

Stannis knew the truth about Cercei and Jamie- that Robert's kids were not actual Baratheons, which is why he made a claim to the throne. That is also why there was a "purge" of all of Robert's bastards. Technically, they would have had a legitimate claim to the throne, as well.

 

Supposing all of the stark boys died, would you say Benjen would be next in line then? (Assuming he's alive) or does Sansa get the nod... (not that any of this would play out)

[OldMaid 2,130]

Supposing all of the stark boys died, would you say Benjen would be next in line then? (Assuming he's alive) or does Sansa get the nod... (not that any of this would play out)

I would go with Benjen, if still alive. But I don't think anyone believes that to be true. Hence why everyone wanted to get control of Sansa.

 

Edit: I might have to re-think this stance, since their wasn't a King in the North (currently) before Rob. So, since Rob and no children and no surviving brothers, Sansa would probably be technically the next in line.

[CantTouchThis 23]

....And what of Genry? I don't think Stannis kills him. Maybe I read this in the various spoilers here, but I get the notion that he ends up becoming an important character.

 

However, I agree that in the end, the 4 truly main characters are Dani, Jon Snow, Arya, and Bran. I think Genry could end up as one of the top secondary characters though. No one, besides Dani, who is in real power right now will end up in the Iron Throne or in power once sh1t hits the fan.

 

Snow has the leader warrior aspect. Dani has dragons and an exponentially growing army because of people who admire her. Arya is the growing darkness that may take down the Lord of Light in the future. Bran is the prophet.

[Quickolas1 80]

Yes, I admit that it is highly unlikely that a bastard would be raised to the throne, but it IS possible. There have been countless coups throughout the history of the world that has seen unlikely people seated on the throne. The people disliked Stannis so much, that Renly fought to take his claim. And, after all, Robert got the throne by warring for it. When you're fighting for something so important, it's best not to leave anything to chance.

 

We know the claim to the throne is tenuous because anyone can take the throne through force (Renly, Robb, Balon Greyjoy, Robert Baratheon from Targaryan) but regarding the question of policy of the time: the answer is the oldest male son to youngest male son and then oldest daughter. Brother only comes into play when there are no direct descendants - i.e. children. That's why we have Queen Dany, Princess Myrcella (Joffrey's sister who is next in line after Joffrey and his younger brother Prince Tommen) and Sansa and Arya became princesses when Robb declared himself King.

 

Tyrion sent off Princess Myrcella to Dorne (on the way back from the docks the people attacked Joffrey and his Kingsguard and that's when Sansa was almost raped in the TV show) because Tyrion didn't want Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen to all be sitting in King's Landing when Stannis arrived. He could have killed them all. Cersei sent Tommen away as well in the books but it wasn't a focus of the show because it didn't affect the story (Lannisters ended up beating Stannis). They are called Princess Myrcella and Prince Tommen in the books.

 

Stannis doesn't want to be King like Renly did, he believes he should be King - duty not desire - because Robert had no legitimate children with the Queen. Stannis knows about all of Robert's bastards. Same with Ned. This is why marrying off the women is so important to immediately have children. Tywin isn't telling Tyrion to just have a baby... he's saying put a baby IN Sansa.

 

There's almost always a King and Queen by marriage at a given point in time. The subjugation of women still happens even if Dany becomes Queen or Sansa is Queen of the North by the fact that their husband becomes King and has the real power. The Targaryans always married each other so no other ruling family's male would take the real power (or bloodline) - becoming King.

 

Benjen is a non-issue regardless because he took the black. Same with Jon Snow. But I'll stick by the bastard argument and say even if Jon Snow didn't take the black, Sansa would still be next after Robb, Bran and then Rickon because bastards are the lowest of low in this world - they weren't born from both the ruling King and Queen. And then Sansa's husband would be of more importance really anyway.

[OldMaid 2,130]

We know the claim to the throne is tenuous because anyone can take the throne through force (Renly, Robb, Balon Greyjoy, Robert Baratheon from Targaryan) but regarding the question of policy of the time: the answer is the oldest male son to youngest male son and then oldest daughter. Brother only comes into play when there are no direct descendants - i.e. children. That's why we have Queen Dany, Princess Myrcella (Joffrey's sister who is next in line after Joffrey and his younger brother Prince Tommen) and Sansa and Arya became princesses when Robb declared himself King.

 

Tyrion sent off Princess Myrcella to Dorne (on the way back from the docks the people attacked Joffrey and his Kingsguard and that's when Sansa was almost raped in the TV show) because Tyrion didn't want Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen to all be sitting in King's Landing when Stannis arrived. He could have killed them all. Cersei sent Tommen away as well in the books but it wasn't a focus of the show because it didn't affect the story (Lannisters ended up beating Stannis). They are called Princess Myrcella and Prince Tommen in the books.

 

Stannis doesn't want to be King like Renly did, he believes he should be King - duty not desire - because Robert had no legitimate children with the Queen. Stannis knows about all of Robert's bastards. Same with Ned. This is why marrying off the women is so important to immediately have children. Tywin isn't telling Tyrion to just have a baby... he's saying put a baby IN Sansa.

 

There's almost always a King and Queen by marriage at a given point in time. The subjugation of women still happens even if Dany becomes Queen or Sansa is Queen of the North by the fact that their husband becomes King and has the real power. The Targaryans always married each other so no other ruling family's male would take the real power (or bloodline) - becoming King.

 

Benjen is a non-issue regardless because he took the black. Same with Jon Snow. But I'll stick by the bastard argument and say even if Jon Snow didn't take the black, Sansa would still be next after Robb, Bran and then Rickon because bastards are the lowest of low in this world - they weren't born from both the ruling King and Queen. And then Sansa's husband would be of more importance really anyway.

 

 

Since you've read the books, then you should already know that is some cases a bastard can be given titles and land. Ramsay Bolton is one example and it is offered to Jon Snow as well. In the case of a power grab for the throne, it's possible that someone seeking power could recognize Gendry (for example) as Robert's legitimate heir and raise him to a Lord so they can make a claim on to the throne.

 

[Quickolas1 80]

 

Since you've read the books, then you should already know that is some cases a bastard can be given titles and land. Ramsay Bolton is one example and it is offered to Jon Snow as well. In the case of a power grab for the throne, it's possible that someone seeking power could recognize Gendry (for example) as Robert's legitimate heir and raise him to a Lord so they can make a claim on to the throne.

 

 

people were asking who is next in line by the generally accepted succession rules that the families follow.

pointing out the throne can be taken by force or an exception (or someone changing the rules) is a different issue.

[parrot 789]

In a way, Cersei is the Lannister I feel the most sorry for. All she's ever wanted was to be powerful and respected like her father. Except, there's only one problem... She's a woman. So, she's inclined to give in to her emotions-jealousy, envy, pettiness, a mother's love for her children, her love for Jamie, etc. All of which keep her from attaining her goals. Plus, women are not generally respected as leaders in Westeros.

 

Most people are lucky, as in their true talents usually align somewhat with their goals. But imagine what it would be like if you were totally unsuited for what your heart truly desires... It has taken it's toll on her and left her angry and bitter.

 

So we are supposed to feel sorry for her because she is an ambitious, unprincipled, power-hungry, sociopath, but she's unable to fully act on these wonderful traits because she's a woman, which adds a generous helping of bitterness to her winning personality? Sorry I can't quite work up any sympathy for that.

 

 

Also, I think you guys may have missed a surviving Targaryen in your headcount.

 

[TD Ryan2 316]

 

So we are supposed to feel sorry for her because she is an ambitious, unprincipled, power-hungry, sociopath, but she's unable to fully act on these wonderful traits because she's a woman, which adds a generous helping of bitterness to her winning personality? Sorry I can't quite work up any sympathy ]

as I said - in that kaleidoscope of ass wholes, she is the brownest.

[IGotWorms 4,058]

 

So we are supposed to feel sorry for her because she is an ambitious, unprincipled, power-hungry, sociopath, but she's unable to fully act on these wonderful traits because she's a woman, which adds a generous helping of bitterness to her winning personality? Sorry I can't quite work up any sympathy for that.

 

Nobody's saying she's a "good guy" or anything. Just that her character is nuanced as are pretty much all the characters on GOT.

[Quickolas1 80]

Also, I think you guys may have missed a surviving Targaryen in your headcount.

 

naw, we just can't talk about that yet in this thread about the show

[OldMaid 2,130]

Ok, after doing some digging I've come to a conclusion about the purge of Robert's bastards:

 

1) To eliminate any threats to the throne

 

2) To conceal evidence of the true parentage of Cercei's children.

 

and

 

3) Out of spite and her hatred for Robert.

 

 

 

 

There is a conversation between Tyrion and Varys, where they are talking about Cercei sending the Gold Cloaks to murder Robert's bastards:

"There was another bastard, a boy, older. I took steps to see him removed from harm's way...but I confess, I never dreamed the babe would be at risk. A base born girl, less then a year old, with a for a mother, what threat could she pose."

- Varys

 

"She was Robert's, that was enough for Cersei it would seem."

- Tyrion's bitter reply

[OldMaid 2,130]

So we are supposed to feel sorry for her because she is an ambitious, unprincipled, power-hungry, sociopath, but she's unable to fully act on these wonderful traits because she's a woman, which adds a generous helping of bitterness to her winning personality? Sorry I can't quite work up any sympathy for that.

 

 

Also, I think you guys may have missed a surviving Targaryen in your headcount.

 

 

I think maybe you're misconstruing what I said (or maybe I wasn't clear enough). I think that had Cercei had different ambitions, she might have turned out much differently. But instead, she choose the one thing that she was most unsuited for and actually never had the power to correct within herself, as her goal. She desperately wanted power and respect- equal to a man. But she wasn't quite clever enough and let her emotions rule her judgements, so she was never able to attain it. Instead of looking inward at herself and seeing the flaws there, she thought if she was more ruthless, she might finally get the recognition she thought she deserved. I don't think she started out as a monster, but the more she wasn't able to be the person she wanted to be, the more horrific she became in trying to attain it.

 

That to me is sad...

[Mookz 1,349]

Hey dudes. I haven't read this thread or seen even a second of the show, but MAD did a parody of GOT this month, so I thought I'd post it in case anyone's interested. It might be worth it for two reasons:

 

1. It's drawn by possibly MAD's most talented artist right now, Hermann Mejia.

2. It will remind you why you have no interest in subscribing to MAD.

 

So without further ado, I give you...

 

wait for it...

 

GAME OF GROANS

 

Cover - http://oi40.tinypic.com/35cpqxk.jpg

 

Pages 1&2 - http://oi42.tinypic.com/359n4vq.jpg

 

Pages 3&4 - http://oi43.tinypic.com/19xb83.jpg

 

Pages 5&6 - http://oi39.tinypic.com/23mt28k.jpg

 

Page 7 - http://oi43.tinypic.com/2zgyj5i.jpg

 

YWIA

[OldMaid 2,130]

Hey dudes. I haven't read this thread or seen even a second of the show, but MAD did a parody of GOT this month, so I thought I'd post it in case anyone's interested. It might be worth it for two reasons:

 

1. It's drawn by possibly MAD's most talented artist right now, Hermann Mejia.

2. It will remind you why you have no interest in subscribing to MAD.

 

So without further ado, I give you...

 

wait for it...

 

GAME OF GROANS

 

Cover - http://oi40.tinypic.com/35cpqxk.jpg

 

Pages 1&2 - http://oi42.tinypic.com/359n4vq.jpg

 

Pages 3&4 - http://oi43.tinypic.com/19xb83.jpg

 

Pages 5&6 - http://oi39.tinypic.com/23mt28k.jpg

 

Page 7 - http://oi43.tinypic.com/2zgyj5i.jpg

 

YWIA

 

 

Those caricatures are awesome.

[Big Blue 06 195]

Hey dudes. I haven't read this thread or seen even a second of the show, but MAD did a parody of GOT this month, so I thought I'd post it in case anyone's interested. It might be worth it for two reasons:

 

1. It's drawn by possibly MAD's most talented artist right now, Hermann Mejia.

2. It will remind you why you have no interest in subscribing to MAD.

 

So without further ado, I give you...

 

wait for it...

 

GAME OF GROANS

 

Cover - http://oi40.tinypic.com/35cpqxk.jpg

 

Pages 1&2 - http://oi42.tinypic.com/359n4vq.jpg

 

Pages 3&4 - http://oi43.tinypic.com/19xb83.jpg

 

Pages 5&6 - http://oi39.tinypic.com/23mt28k.jpg

 

Page 7 - http://oi43.tinypic.com/2zgyj5i.jpg

 

YWIA

 

That's actually pretty awesome. Thanks for the chuckles.