Victor Cruz "fumble"

[Giants Fan 85]

For those who didn't see it, Cruz caught the ball and was touched, but then seemed to regain his balance, and then fell down again. With the clock ticking, he got up and left the ball on the ground and Arizona argued that he had made a football move, or something and wasn't touched when he went down and it should be a fumble. Refs did not allow a challenge.

[MDC 5,892]

It was a fumble. He was touched, steadied himself and took several more steps without being downed. Then Cruz voluntarily dove to avoid what would've been a hit, and without being touched down he tossed the ball as if the play were over and started trotting back to the huddle. The ball was recovered by the Cards and should've been ruled their ball but the refs said Cruz "voluntarily gave himself up," but again - the player wasn't touched down and the ball was therefore live, even if Cruz dove.

 

Awful call.

[The Hood 9]

Refs claimed he "gave himself up" on the play so he was ruled down.

 

That was not what he did. He fell down and was not touched. Should have been a fumble.

[RLLD 3,455]

Not a fumble, but I can certainly see why anyone might think it was.

[tanatastic 2,061]

He gave himself up, or at least gave the refs a good reason to say he did. Legit play, couldv gone either way.

 

 

Yes I'm a Nicks owner.

[Giants Fan 85]

So, if I am following this right, there was NOT A WHISTLE before he left the ball on the ground. At least not from the refs. I mean, if there was a whistle ... totally not his fault. If there was no whistle ... it's a debate.

[Big Blue 06 195]

I say fumble, and good on the Giants for taking advantage of their break.

[roroco 75]

This shouldn't even be debatable. He didn't "give himself up". Why on earth would he? Only QBs give themselves up. WRs and RBs run until they are taken down or thrown out of bounds.

 

It was simple. He thought he was down and got up and dropped the ball. It was a dumb move by Cruz, and it was a fumble. The refs made a very bad call and came back with the lame excuse of "giving himself up."

[heavy-set 39]

he was running, went down like he got shot by a sniper, and the play was over.

[RicemanX 20]

Fumble.

 

Mental error by Cruz, mistake by the refs.

 

But Cards shouldn't have given the Giants the opportunity to drive for the win, they had a RB who was doing well, but they decided to throw it a bunch in the 4th. Dumb.

[da_mane_man 1]

if you don't know the rules (like i didn't) then you think it's a fumble... but it's NOT.

 

the rule was read on NBC during the sunday night football pre game. it states that a runner is down if he goes out of bounds or if he gives himself up and doesn't attempt to gain any more yards.

 

if you watch the replay, that's EXACTLY what cruz did. he dove down to avoid getting hit and then left the ball as he started walking back to the huddle.

[Giants Fan 85]

I agree ... his intent was clear.

[Low Score 0]

Tony Dungy said refs historically have called "giving yourself up" only when sliding feet first. I'll have to research a little but I'm pretty sure there have been a few instances in the past where players have made the same mistake and it's been ruled a fumble. The refs, in theory are allowed to make that call, but I've only ever seen it with QBs sliding and not the few times that a player has actually messed up and relinguished the ball without being tackled. I wish I could remember the details but one game several years ago, a player actually tossed the ball to the ref and the ref moved out of the way because it was a live ball. What a doofus. I wish I could remember who did that. Probably a decade ago or so.

 

Also...foudn this online article:

According to NFL.com -The referees ruled Cruz down by non-contact. The NFL rule book allows officials the leeway to make that call.

 

The language, per the rule book: “Official shall declare ball dead … when runner declares himself down by falling to ground or kneeling & making no effort to advance.”

 

It’s a judgment call that Mike Pereira, former NFL vice president of officiating who now works as a Fox analyst, believed the refs got wrong.

 

“I don’t know that he gave himself up,” Pereira said. “When you talk about giving yourself, you are actually talking about deliberately going to the ground. I think he stumbles and then lets the ball go. I think you have to play that.”

[Giants Fan 85]

I betcha Cruz hands the ball to the ref next time.

[Quickolas1 80]

“Official shall declare ball dead … when runner declares himself down by falling to ground or kneeling & making no effort to advance.”

 

and what if a guy pretends to make no effort to advance and then starts running down the field?

if that wasnt a fumble...then every player who goes to the ground should be ruled down

 

it should be QB sliding feet first or if someone takes a knee

 

the NFL has a bunch of terribly written and worse enforced "rules"

i still have no idea if a defender is allowed to even touch a QB who doesnt slide feet first

they're calling 15 yd penalties on DBs every week now for hitting a "defenseless" receiver...

...I guess you just have to let them catch the ball now?

and then there's the calvin rule...just ridiculous

[WR Guru 31]

My immediate reaction when I saw the play live was that he purposely did a belly flop, i.e. "gave himself up", to end the play, which I know that players are allowed by rule to do. I've seen nothing in the replays to change that evaluation. Anyway, it's a judgement call. The refs believe that he purposely went to the ground which you could argue is supported by the replay. Just one of those calls that could have legitimately gone either way. Tough luck for the Cards.

[Giants Fan 85]

Like I said, I think his intent was clear. And under the rules, if it's the refs discretion, they made the call. I mean, it's not as if someone hit him, and the ball came squirting out ... he left it on the ground because he thought he was down. He was clearly hit, regained his balance, but saw nowhere to go and took a dive. Get back to the huddle ... clocks ticking.

 

The kid has a lot of talent ... he's just got to eliminate the mistakes.

[Gepetto 988]

He gave himself up. Even if he tripped, he still did not try to get up and advance the ball; he got up and went back to the huddle - that's in the rule thus making the play over.

[Giants Fan 85]

He gave himself up. Even if he tripped, he still did not try to get up and advance the ball; he got up and went back to the huddle - that's in the rule thus making the play over.

 

Agreed. That's the rule. I applaud the refs for getting this very complicated call correct.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,585]

if you play for the Giants, its giving yourself up and the play is dead.

 

if you play for the Chargers against the P*triots, its a fumble. Richard Goodman did the same thing last year against the Patsies and it was a fumble.

[Giants Fan 85]

if you play for the Giants, its giving yourself up and the play is dead.

 

if you play for the Chargers against the P*triots, its a fumble. Richard Goodman did the same thing last year against the Patsies and it was a fumble.

 

The Patriots never get any calls.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHEQtASq9BI

 

[chroniciguana 13]

Agreed. That's the rule. I applaud the refs for getting this very complicated call correct.

 

I seem to recall another rule. Hard to forget. Coaches kept screaming it at me. Play the whistle! No whistle = live ball. Whistle = dead ball. Even an inadvertent whistle means the ball is dead and the play is over.

[Giants Fan 85]

Didn't Ronnie Brown try and throw the ball during a run today in that Niners game? They called it a fumble.

 

When this game is rectified ... sure they changed the rules, they changed where the refs stand on FGs .... but when this PLAYOFF game is CHANGED to a WIN for the Giants .... you all can complain all you want about bad calls. The "Scoreboard" game. Named for when Owens was celebrating a 2 point conversion, still down by 16 and Strahan pointed to the scoreboard (4:10). Crassic.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xneDY8BJ_M

 

Mebe .... the most rooned game ever .... by crappy refs not making the right call .... the announcers, everybody on the field knew it was pass interference .... refs claim they didn't see it until reviewing the tapes the next day, where they admitted that they blew the call. Giants lost because of it. When asked about the refs admitting they blew the call, Mooch replied, "Bummer."

 

I still want that win. Giants deserved to win that game.

[ricanrockers 39]

It was a fumble. He was touched, steadied himself and took several more steps without being downed. Then Cruz voluntarily dove to avoid what would've been a hit, and without being touched down he tossed the ball as if the play were over and started trotting back to the huddle. The ball was recovered by the Cards and should've been ruled their ball but the refs said Cruz "voluntarily gave himself up," but again - the player wasn't touched down and the ball was therefore live, even if Cruz dove.

 

Awful call.

 

Awful as it may have been, that next strike to Nicks for a TD basically sealed my victory against my opponent. My opinion, it should've been ruled a fumble. The NFL will probably edit the current rule or just add another rule on how a player can give himself up. Giants got lucky this week.

[Giants Fan 85]

You know what really made me mad? How Fassel just wiped his nose and walked off the field .... he shoulda been freaking out!

 

Of course the Niners lost the next week, had no business in the playoffs, but that Giants team .... coulda made some noise. The whole 2002 NFL season is tainted, IMHO. Should have a * next to it.

 

* Giants should have advanced over 49ers

 

So .... don't talk to me about bad calls.

[Giants Fan 85]

Only Seahawks fans have more to cry about.

[shovelheadt 62]

if you don't know the rules (like i didn't) then you think it's a fumble... but it's NOT.

 

the rule was read on NBC during the sunday night football pre game. it states that a runner is down if he goes out of bounds or if he gives himself up and doesn't attempt to gain any more yards.

 

if you watch the replay, that's EXACTLY what cruz did. he dove down to avoid getting hit and then left the ball as he started walking back to the huddle.

 

Agree 100%. You see him start to juke a bit, then glance to his right as he's about to get hit. I have no doubt in my mind that he meant to give himself up.

[Portis26 0]

FYI, as a D1 college football official, the whistle does not stop the play. The play ends itself.

 

remember when burress got up and spiked ball, how cone that wasn't an illegal forward pass, which was incomplete.?? By rule, 5 yards from spot of illegal forward pass + loss of down.. Steelers should have kept ball.

 

I think this will open up alot of - is he down or giving him self up? If the D hits him is it late hit? This isn't the NCAA, you (NFL) aren't down until someone touches you while your down or knocks u down.

 

..

[roroco 75]

So when Plaxico caught the ball, got up without being touched, and spiked the ball. That was called him "giving himself up" too? He didn't have any intent to move the ball forward. Same situation.

[kmbryant09 1]

It was a fumble. He was touched, steadied himself and took several more steps without being downed. Then Cruz voluntarily dove to avoid what would've been a hit, and without being touched down he tossed the ball as if the play were over and started trotting back to the huddle. The ball was recovered by the Cards and should've been ruled their ball but the refs said Cruz "voluntarily gave himself up," but again - the player wasn't touched down and the ball was therefore live, even if Cruz dove.

 

Awful call.

You said it yourself - Cruz voluntarily threw himself to the ground - which is essentially another way of saying that Cruz gave himself up. He didn't stumble. He didn't trip. He literally just crumbled to the ground in between 2 defenders, dropped the ball, and started walking away for a second while he got up. He was giving himself up.

 

This shouldn't even be debatable. He didn't "give himself up". Why on earth would he? Only QBs give themselves up. WRs and RBs run until they are taken down or thrown out of bounds.

 

It was simple. He thought he was down and got up and dropped the ball. It was a dumb move by Cruz, and it was a fumble. The refs made a very bad call and came back with the lame excuse of "giving himself up."

Seriously? Only QB's give themselves up? Ever watch Marvin Harrison play? He did this all the time. Call it cheap if you want - most WR's do it to avoid a big hit. Especially late in the game, it was pretty clear that Cruz was giving himself up in between 2 defenders - to not only save time of being tackled and laid on for a few seconds, but to avoid a hit.

[el_duderino 0]

I seem to recall another rule. Hard to forget. Coaches kept screaming it at me. Play the whistle! No whistle = live ball. Whistle = dead ball. Even an inadvertent whistle means the ball is dead and the play is over.

 

This is because coaches are still coaching based on the rules they learned as players decades ago. THe whistle doesn't kill the play....the play ends when it naturally ends. Any high school officiating clinic will teach you this.

[Dr Hook 6]

This shouldn't even be debatable. He didn't "give himself up". Why on earth would he? Only QBs give themselves up. WRs and RBs run until they are taken down or thrown out of bounds.

 

It was simple. He thought he was down and got up and dropped the ball. It was a dumb move by Cruz, and it was a fumble. The refs made a very bad call and came back with the lame excuse of "giving himself up."

I agree

[phillybear 364]

There was around 2:51 left, if I am not mistaken, when the play happened. Considering the amount of time left in the game, considering the amount of time before the 2 minute warning, the situation dictates there is zero reason for a player to give themselves up and give up control of the ball. Logically, it makes no sense; then again, the league has become infuriating with every single change and interpretation they come up with. The league is as rugged as ice dancing and is as logical as a retard explaining quantum physics.

[da_mane_man 1]

There was around 2:51 left, if I am not mistaken, when the play happened. Considering the amount of time left in the game, considering the amount of time before the 2 minute warning, the situation dictates there is zero reason for a player to give themselves up and give up control of the ball. Logically, it makes no sense; then again, the league has become infuriating with every single change and interpretation they come up with. The league is as rugged as ice dancing and is as logical as a retard explaining quantum physics.

 

they were in a hurry up offense. he was trying to keep that going. also, he's a young player without much experience, he could easily have been unaware of exactly how much time was left.

 

Also, to touch up on the plaxico play, i don't exactly remember it and i can't find it online anywhere, but i think he went to the ground trying to catch the pass. he didn't "give himself up" ... that's the big difference. this is being made into a big issue when it's really not. dispute the rule if you want, not the interpretation of it in yesterday's game.

[rumbleready00 3]

First of all, I think this should have been a fumble. However, according to the way the rules are written, this is not a fumble. I think too many people thinking the other way are going by what they think should be called, based on their knowledge of the game and the way it has been refereed/called in the past. In the past, giving yourself up was thought of as sliding first or taking a knee. This was not the case here, but Cruz was still clearly giving himself up - thus the referee called it according to the written rule. This is very similar to the Calvin Johnson catch - we all know this should have been a touchdown, but was not according to the way the rule was written. What gets me is this candyass Pereira, whereby he states the officials got this one wrong. He has almost always sided with the officials and usually brings up the written rule to side with the official. He is in fact again siding with the official because 99 times out of 100, the official calls this a fumble - but according to the rule, it is not.

[rumbleready00 3]

Clarification of the rule and "what is considered giving yourself up" will solve this dilemma going forward.

[roroco 75]

Even Manning, in his post game conference, said he thought it was going to be called a fumble.

[heavy-set 39]

if you don't know the rules (like i didn't) then you think it's a fumble... but it's NOT.

 

the rule was read on NBC during the sunday night football pre game. it states that a runner is down if he goes out of bounds or if he gives himself up and doesn't attempt to gain any more yards.

 

if you watch the replay, that's EXACTLY what cruz did. he dove down to avoid getting hit and then left the ball as he started walking back to the huddle.

i read your post, then saw your avatar.

[heavy-set 39]

Even Manning, in his post game conference, said he thought it was going to be called a fumble.

donavan mcnabb didnt know there were ties in football, either. qbs are dummies

[GameDay Guru 1]

Watch the first play on this Marvin Harrison highlight video and explain to me the difference between what he did and Cruz did....it can't go both ways....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gd1tEtl3UM