NBA Finals Thread

[listen2me 23 1,542]

NBA is so predictable. Miami is favored by 7 tonight. SEVEN!!!

 

They will cruise tonight and then win a close game 7. NBA makes profit. James/MJ talks return. Tebow is happy. Drones are flying in the sky.

[cbfalcon 824]

NBA is so predictable. Miami is favored by 7 tonight. SEVEN!!!

 

They will cruise tonight and then win a close game 7. NBA makes profit. James/MJ talks return. Tebow is happy. Drones are flying in the sky.

 

I would say "You're crazy".......But I just read that Joey Crawford is working the game tonight. That being the same Joey Crawford that kicked Duncan out of a game for laughing and then challenged him to a fight.

 

He previously worked game 2.

[KSB2424 3,083]

 

I would say "You're crazy".......But I just read that Joey Crawford is working the game tonight. That being the same Joey Crawford that kicked Duncan out of a game for laughing and then challenged him to a fight.

 

He previously worked game 2.

 

On the flipside, Lebron has fouled out of two playoff games in his career. Joey Crawford worked both of those games. Crawford is simply a bad ref who likes to make himself the story.

 

Regarding predictions for tonight? Its hard not to like Miami to win the game as they've responded every single time when their backs have been against the wall for going on two years now. However a small part of me thinks you simply can't keep putting yourself in those positions as it will eventually bite you in the ass. Miami has to come with that same suffocating defensive effort and be agressive at both ends.

 

I like them to win, but I'm not laying 7 points. Its just to many points in my estimation. I may take them on the moneyline but 7 is a big number.

[cbfalcon 824]

The back and forth has been fun. The games have sucked individually, but the series has been good. In Miami's wins, the Spurs seemed to play poorly. Whereas Miami played well in 2 of the 3 Spurs wins. That tells me that when both teams play well, San Antonio can handle Miami.

 

Tonight I expect both teams to play well. Miami due to desperation. The Spurs due to being so close and wanting to avoid a game 7. It'll look a lot more like game 1 than anythig else we've seen. Spurs win by 7.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

I'm also predicting a close game tonight, but I think the Heat will be the victors.

 

The Heat are returning home and have their backs against the wall. Yes San Antonio will be motivated to end the series tonight, but I think Miami's controlled desperation wins out. The refs may help too, I hate to say.

 

If San Antonio does win, I think it will be because the Heat wear down and give up. So I foresee the Spurs running away with it late in that scenario.

[MedStudent 56]

 

Regarding predictions for tonight? Its hard not to like Miami to win the game as they've responded every single time when their backs have been against the wall for going on two years now. However a small part of me thinks you simply can't keep putting yourself in those positions as it will eventually bite you in the ass. Miami has to come with that same suffocating defensive effort and be agressive at both ends.

 

That's basically the essence of why I don't put LeBron on the same platform with Jordan or even Kobe. Those two, especially Jordan were ultracompetitive and would never let their teams let up the way Miami has appeared to in this series and in in the Indiana series. I don't think LeBron has quite the killer instinct that Kobe and Jordan had. I don't think he wills his team to victory like those two did. Sometimes I think LeBron cares more about being liked than winning. Jordan and Bryant were not afraid to call out teammates and push them.

[Sho Nuff 719]

 

That's basically the essence of why I don't put LeBron on the same platform with Jordan or even Kobe. Those two, especially Jordan were ultracompetitive and would never let their teams let up the way Miami has appeared to in this series and in in the Indiana series. I don't think LeBron has quite the killer instinct that Kobe and Jordan had. I don't think he wills his team to victory like those two did. Sometimes I think LeBron cares more about being liked than winning. Jordan and Bryant were not afraid to call out teammates and push them.

 

They are just different types of players.

Wade is more of that Kobe/Jordan mold as far as the killer instinct. And Lebron defers to that at times.

Lebron is more the hybrid...he can take over at times and score and dominate other players...but also works like Magic to open up other things and make some great assists.

[Sho Nuff 719]

LeBron will never have a legacy like Jordan, Bird, Bryant, Magic, Russell, etc. because he left Clevland to get his ring(s). And it's not like he did a Ray Allen, to chase a ring before he retired. He punked out, in the prime of his career.

 

Jordan, Bird, Bryant, Magic...all would have done the same thing if their teams were being put together as poorly as Cleveland was putting together teams.

[cbfalcon 824]

 

Jordan, Bird, Bryant, Magic...all would have done the same thing if their teams were being put together as poorly as Cleveland was putting together teams.

 

Keep in mind, Chicago had never won a title before Jordan. Detroit had never won before Isiah. Houston had never won before Hakeem. The Spurs had never won before Duncan. And so on.

 

Lebron's teams were finishing with the best record in his conference and challenging for championships. I have zero doubt he'd have eventually won 2-3+ titles there. People would have come to play with him.

 

Win 2-3 titles in Cleveland and do so with multiple MVPs, his stats, and whatnot, and he'd go down as a top 5 player all time. But the decision changed the target. He probably needs 5 titles now to be seen in that same light. If you are going to form super teams, you gotta get as many as Kobe and Duncan at least. Winning these next 2 games would sure help quite a bit.

[KSB2424 3,083]

 

Keep in mind, Chicago had never won a title before Jordan. Detroit had never won before Isiah. Houston had never won before Hakeem. The Spurs had never won before Duncan. And so on.

 

Lebron's teams were finishing with the best record in his conference and challenging for championships. I have zero doubt he'd have eventually won 2-3+ titles there. People would have come to play with him.

 

Win 2-3 titles in Cleveland and do so with multiple MVPs, his stats, and whatnot, and he'd go down as a top 5 player all time. But the decision changed the target. He probably needs 5 titles now to be seen in that same light. If you are going to form super teams, you gotta get as many as Kobe and Duncan at least. Winning these next 2 games would sure help quite a bit.

Phil Jackson, Chuck Daley, Greg Popovich. Scottie Pippin, Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant, Joe Dumars, Tony Parker, David Robinson, Manu Ginoboli all were on those teams you mention.

 

Lebron was in Clevland for 7-8 years waiting, wanting a Tony Parker or a David Robinson. It didn't happen year after year. Do you realize his two coaches for most of his career have been Mike Brown and Erick Spoelstra? Think about that for a minute. Can you imagine if he was in LA with a Phil Jackson or with a Pop as his coach? Or a Mark Cuban willing to do whatever it took, spend whatever it took to bring in players?

 

And they tried bringing in other stars. LeBron might have stayed in Cleveland if the team could convince Chris Bosh to come to Cleveland. But Bosh didn't want to go there. No offense, but its Cleveland. Florida and Texas has the tax breaks. NY, LA, Boston, Chicago are the big time cities. Thats where guys want to go play.

 

Mike Brown? Dan Gilbert? These are the coaches and front office we are talking about there. Who was the best player Lebron ever played with as a teammate in Cleveland? Zyldrunas Illguaskus maybe?

 

Like I said previously, to win multiple titles in a smaller market you need a great coach, great GM/Owners, other really good-great players and a bit of luck. The 2002 - 2009 Clevland Cavs had none of those and nothing was changing. Not one.

[KSB2424 3,083]

 

That's basically the essence of why I don't put LeBron on the same platform with Jordan or even Kobe. Those two, especially Jordan were ultracompetitive and would never let their teams let up the way Miami has appeared to in this series and in in the Indiana series. I don't think LeBron has quite the killer instinct that Kobe and Jordan had. I don't think he wills his team to victory like those two did. Sometimes I think LeBron cares more about being liked than winning. Jordan and Bryant were not afraid to call out teammates and push them.

 

I sorta agree here. However I think the problem isn't the fact that LeBron is different than an MJ in that way, its that people try and compare the two players so much. Lebron is more Magic Johnson than he is Michael or Kobe. Lebron is a different kind of player. A part of me does wish he had a bit more of that 'killer' instinct. But if he did would he be as good as a teammate/faclitator/passer as he is now? I doubt it.

 

All the greats have different strengths and weaknesses. When its all said and done people will debate who's better than who, but that should be done in totality not based on one single quality.

[NewbieJr 540]

Love is sort of a weird word when speaking about other men in uniforms......maybe Newbie or edjr is more qualified.

 

You're the queer wearing sweater vests and being in the chess club in high school. Believe me, there is no one here more qualified than you to talk about their love of men in uniforms. We all see how you gargle with Lebron and Tiger's come everyday like it's Listerine.

[cbfalcon 824]

Like I said previously, to win multiple titles in a smaller market you need a great coach, great GM/Owners, other really good-great players and a bit of luck. The 2002 - 2009 Clevland Cavs had none of those and nothing was changing. Not one.

 

It seems like they had nothing because you are comparing them to the greatest dynasties of all time. Guess what, playing for the Showtime Lakers or Jordan's Bulls isn't a God Given right. Sometimes you get drafted by the Mavericks and have to deal with the departure of Steve Nash, then you have to carry Jet Terry and some over the hill names to a title. Sometimes you have to carry an average broken down David Robinson to a title. Sometimes your second best player is Otis Thorpe or Vernon Maxwell, yet you create a legend for yourself.

 

And speaking of Jordan..... It took him 7 years and his 4th coach before winning one. Nobody knew Phil Jackson was a legend when he was hired. Lebron experienced more team success in Cleveland than Jordan did in his first 6 years. Point being, it wasn't as if there was no hope. Miami had the best team in basketball in 2010 and 2009. The 3 previous seasons they were a 4, 2, and 4 seed.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

 

I sorta agree here. However I think the problem isn't the fact that LeBron is different than an MJ in that way, its that people try and compare the two players so much. Lebron is more Magic Johnson than he is Michael or Kobe. Lebron is a different kind of player. A part of me does wish he had a bit more of that 'killer' instinct. But if he did would he be as good as a teammate/faclitator/passer as he is now? I doubt it.

 

All the greats have different strengths and weaknesses. When its all said and done people will debate who's better than who, but that should be done in totality not based on one single quality.

It's not about "killer instinct" exactly. It's more "competitveness" and "drive".

 

Lebron took the easy way out when he went to Miami. Say what you will about Cleveland, but it's undeniable that Lebron could have stayed and tried to will that damn team to a few titles. He chose not to.

 

Lebron has also lacked the will at times to take over and win a series. Against the Mavericks two years ago and now, possibly, against the Spurs. Both series could have been taken. Lebron famously did not take the Mavs series and it looks like he may not take this one either (he's still got two games to do it though).

 

I realize this is being very nitpicky and asking a lot, but if we're going to count him as amongst the best players to ever play the game I don't think it's unfair.

[cbfalcon 824]

but if we're going to count him as amongst the best players to ever play the game I don't think it's unfair.

 

I need to make this point as well. Obviously I think he is amazing. He is obviously a lock top 20 player of all time. But I look at his talent level and think he could easily be top 5 right there with MJ., Magic, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, etc. 2-3 titles in Cleveland (along with the MVP's and stats) would have gotten him into that conversation.

 

Had he stayed, he didn't have to win 5-6 titles and match the Jordan's, Kobe's, Shaq's, and Duncan's. Bird only won 3, and did so with other Hall of Famers, yet he is in the conversation. Hakeem won 2 and is considered top 10 by many. 2-3 would have done it in Cleveland. But he changed the conversation with his choices.

[FeelingMN 273]

Phil Jackson, Chuck Daley, Greg Popovich. Scottie Pippin, Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant, Joe Dumars, Tony Parker, David Robinson, Manu Ginoboli all were on those teams you mention.

 

Lebron was in Clevland for 7-8 years waiting, wanting a Tony Parker or a David Robinson. It didn't happen year after year. Do you realize his two coaches for most of his career have been Mike Brown and Erick Spoelstra? Think about that for a minute. Can you imagine if he was in LA with a Phil Jackson or with a Pop as his coach? Or a Mark Cuban willing to do whatever it took, spend whatever it took to bring in players?

 

And they tried bringing in other stars. LeBron might have stayed in Cleveland if the team could convince Chris Bosh to come to Cleveland. But Bosh didn't want to go there. No offense, but its Cleveland. Florida and Texas has the tax breaks. NY, LA, Boston, Chicago are the big time cities. Thats where guys want to go play.

 

Mike Brown? Dan Gilbert? These are the coaches and front office we are talking about there. Who was the best player Lebron ever played with as a teammate in Cleveland? Zyldrunas Illguaskus maybe?

 

Like I said previously, to win multiple titles in a smaller market you need a great coach, great GM/Owners, other really good-great players and a bit of luck. The 2002 - 2009 Clevland Cavs had none of those and nothing was changing. Not one.

Phil Jackson's first coaching gig was with the Bulls. He was unproven before then. Same with Pop. Chuck Daly was a disaster with Cleveland before turning Detroit around under his command.

 

Plus, Mike Brown and Erik Spoelstra have higher than .650 winning percentages.....and that's even with LeBron brushing shoulders with them on the sideline.

 

And I don't know why smaller markets need a good organization and big markets don't. The only way to win is with a good organization....in New York or Charlotte. The only big market franchise to win multiple titles in the past 13 years is the Lakers....and that has more to do with management than being a big market....ask the Clippers.

 

I don't fault LeBron for making the move to Miami though....it's just the way that it all went down that bugs the crap out of me.

[nobody 2,044]

I thought it was going 7, but I have to think Spurs close it out tonight since most of the talking heads are predicting a Heat win.

[JT 137]

I don't believe San Antonio can beat miami twice in a row at home playing small ball. Once you get the tempo up and the crowd into it, it's a pretty daunting task.

 

That said, Danny Green's other-worldly 3 pt shooting has been the wild card throughout.

 

I'm not a big fan of counting on role players to step up and win huge games on the road, even when they've been this hot.

 

Still think it's Miami in 7.

[Stewburtx8 67]

 

And speaking of Jordan..... It took him 7 years and his 4th coach before winning one. Nobody knew Phil Jackson was a legend when he was hired. Lebron experienced more team success in Cleveland than Jordan did in his first 6 years. Point being, it wasn't as if there was no hope. Miami had the best team in basketball in 2010 and 2009. The 3 previous seasons they were a 4, 2, and 4 seed.

 

 

Cleveland was only that "successful" because they played in a AWFUL Eastern Conference at the time and had Lebron James, who was quickly becoming the best player in the NBA by the time Cleveland was reaching conference finals and then the NBA Finals. You only needed Lebron James and some role players to win in the Eastern Conference at the time.

 

I don't fault Lebron at all for going to Miami. The whole "Decision" thing was stupid and overdone, but the actual decision to go to Miami seems like a sound one. That being said, Wade and Bosh are only getting older. My guess is Lebron ends up back in Cleveland in 2015 and everyone forgives him for the "Decision." Lebron, Kyrie Irving, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, and likely Nerlens Noel or Alex Len, plus any free agent additions that want to play with Lebron.

[Mungwater 588]

I don't believe San Antonio can beat miami twice in a row at home playing small ball. Once you get the tempo up and the crowd into it, it's a pretty daunting task.

 

That said, Danny Green's other-worldly 3 pt shooting has been the wild card throughout.

 

I'm not a big fan of counting on role players to step up and win huge games on the road, even when they've been this hot.

 

Still think it's Miami in 7.

They don't have to beat them twice, only once

[KSB2424 3,083]

Phil Jackson's first coaching gig was with the Bulls. He was unproven before then. Same with Pop. Chuck Daly was a disaster with Cleveland before turning Detroit around under his command.

 

Plus, Mike Brown and Erik Spoelstra have higher than .650 winning percentages.....and that's even with LeBron brushing shoulders with them on the sideline.

 

And I don't know why smaller markets need a good organization and big markets don't. The only way to win is with a good organization....in New York or Charlotte. The only big market franchise to win multiple titles in the past 13 years is the Lakers....and that has more to do with management than being a big market....ask the Clippers.

 

I don't fault LeBron for making the move to Miami though....it's just the way that it all went down that bugs the crap out of me.

 

I don't know what to tell you...here are all the NBA Champions since the merger:

 

Miami Heat

Dallas Mavericks

Los Angeles Lakers

Los Angeles Lakers

Boston Celtics

San Antonio Spurs

Miami Heat

San Antonio Spurs

Detroit Pistons

San Antonio Spurs

Los Angeles Lakers

Los Angeles Lakers

Los Angeles Lakers

San Antonio Spurs

Chicago Bulls

Chicago Bulls

Chicago Bulls

Houston Rockets

Houston Rockets

Chicago Bulls

Chicago Bulls

Chicago Bulls

Detroit Pistons

Detroit Pistons

Los Angeles Lakers

Los Angeles Lakers

Boston Celtics

Los Angeles Lakers

Boston Celtics

Philadelphia 76ers

Los Angeles Lakers

Boston Celtics

Los Angeles Lakers

Seattle SuperSonics

Washington Bullets

Portland Trail Blazers

Boston Celtics

 

All of the multiple winners are from major markets. Miami, Los Angeles and New York as hot-spot destinations for free agents. And big-market teams such as the Lakers and Knicks are flush with cash from their local television contracts. Texas and Florida teams are hot markets because of the income tax.

 

Teams like Charlotte, Minny, Milwakee, Cleveland, etc. must have all the stars align. They either have to hit crazy big in the lottery multiple times (i.e. OKC) or hit it huge in the overseas market AND in the lottery (San Antonio) and couple that with good coaching. Its the way of the NBA. I'm just telling you how it is. We can try to scower the books all we want to find the execptions to the rules, but LeBron took the Cavs as far as they were going. He didn't want the to make the same mistake Kevin Garnett did.

 

Alot of folks think Oscar Robertson was one of the all time greats. But guess what? He didn't win his championship until he finally teamed up with Lew Alcindor with the Bucks. Despite averaging triple doubles and what not for years Oscar couldn't win it all BY HIMSELF.

 

I bet Oscar wishes he could've left Cincinnati earlier too. If he did he might of been talked about more as a top 5 of all time.

[listen2me 23 1,542]

 

 

Cleveland was only that "successful" because they played in a AWFUL Eastern Conference at the time and had Lebron James, who was quickly becoming the best player in the NBA by the time Cleveland was reaching conference finals and then the NBA Finals. You only needed Lebron James and some role players to win in the Eastern Conference at the time.

 

I don't fault Lebron at all for going to Miami. The whole "Decision" thing was stupid and overdone, but the actual decision to go to Miami seems like a sound one. That being said, Wade and Bosh are only getting older. My guess is Lebron ends up back in Cleveland in 2015 and everyone forgives him for the "Decision." Lebron, Kyrie Irving, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, and likely Nerlens Noel or Alex Len, plus any free agent additions that want to play with Lebron.

I could see this happening. It would be pretty sad, but I can see it happening. It is Lebron and it is the NBA.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

Grantland has a great piece right now that explains the see-saw style of this series.

 

Basically, the Heat are really struggling against the Spurs' half-court D and are scoring very well when running down the court in transition.

 

So if the Spurs make their shots, they are then able to set up their stifling defense on the other end. They are essentially rewarded twice.

 

But if they miss their shot, they get gashed in transition. So they get doubly penalized.

 

So you can see how, from this dynamic, one team always has a substantial upper hand over the other.

[JT 137]

They don't have to beat them twice, only once

 

Doh.

 

That's what happens when the finger is faster than the brain.

 

Doesn't change my thoughts on it. I don't see them winning either.

[FeelingMN 273]

I don't know what to tell you...here are all the NBA Champions since the merger:

 

Miami Heat

Dallas Mavericks

Los Angeles Lakers

Los Angeles Lakers

Boston Celtics

San Antonio Spurs

Miami Heat

San Antonio Spurs

Detroit Pistons

San Antonio Spurs

Los Angeles Lakers

Los Angeles Lakers

Los Angeles Lakers

San Antonio Spurs

Chicago Bulls

Chicago Bulls

Chicago Bulls

Houston Rockets

Houston Rockets

Chicago Bulls

Chicago Bulls

Chicago Bulls

Detroit Pistons

Detroit Pistons

Los Angeles Lakers

Los Angeles Lakers

Boston Celtics

Los Angeles Lakers

Boston Celtics

Philadelphia 76ers

Los Angeles Lakers

Boston Celtics

Los Angeles Lakers

Seattle SuperSonics

Washington Bullets

Portland Trail Blazers

Boston Celtics

 

All of the multiple winners are from major markets. Miami, Los Angeles and New York as hot-spot destinations for free agents. And big-market teams such as the Lakers and Knicks are flush with cash from their local television contracts. Texas and Florida teams are hot markets because of the income tax.

 

Teams like Charlotte, Minny, Milwakee, Cleveland, etc. must have all the stars align. They either have to hit crazy big in the lottery multiple times (i.e. OKC) or hit it huge in the overseas market AND in the lottery (San Antonio) and couple that with good coaching. Its the way of the NBA. I'm just telling you how it is. We can try to scower the books all we want to find the execptions to the rules, but LeBron took the Cavs as far as they were going. He didn't want the to make the same mistake Kevin Garnett did.

 

Alot of folks think Oscar Robertson was one of the all time greats. But guess what? He didn't win his championship until he finally teamed up with Lew Alcindor with the Bucks. Despite averaging triple doubles and what not for years Oscar couldn't win it all BY HIMSELF.

 

I bet Oscar wishes he could've left Cincinnati earlier too. If he did he might of been talked about more as a top 5 of all time.

Not sure of your point here. Are you telling me Showtime was a dynasty because LA is a major market? Who cares. It's irrelevant. The Lakers drafted Magic, Worthy, Cooper....traded for Scott and Kareem. Boston drafted Bird, McHale, Ainge.....traded for Chief. Bulls drafted MJ, Grant.....traded for Pippen on draft day. Rockets drafted the nucleus of their team. So did the Bad Boys. So did San Antonio. That's like 95% of all championships.....built from the ground up by great organizations.

 

Maybe a bit of apples to oranges here......but look at baseball. St. Louis is a great organization.....and they win despite being outspent. The Yankees spend....but still have a good enough organization to win. Lots of teams spend top dollar....but do so unwisely. Look at the Angels.

 

Teams win....in any sport....multiple championships because there's a culture of winning from the top down. It really doesn't matter if its a small market or whatever. Good ownership....good GM.....good coach will win more over the long run than players who flash for a couple years.

[listen2me 23 1,542]

It is crazy just how scared Lebron is to shoot from the outside. Never seen teams dare the other's best player to shoot so often. They just give him shots and he is so frightened to take them.

[cbfalcon 824]

It is crazy just how scared Lebron is to shoot from the outside. Never seen teams dare the other's best player to shoot so often. They just give him shots and he is so frightened to take them.

Meanwhile, Tim Duncan is trying to punctuate a career as the greatest PF in NBA history. He has no fear of any moment. Never has, the magnificent bastard (as a Mavs fan, nobody had kicked my team's ass more)

[rallo 132]

Duncan really showed up for the first half... basically put the spurs on his geriatric back and carried them to halftime... LeBron should take notes for future reference

[listen2me 23 1,542]

Meanwhile, Tim Duncan is trying to punctuate a career as the greatest PF in NBA history. He has no fear of any moment. Never has, the magnificent bastard (as a Mavs fan, nobody had kicked my team's ass more)

Tim Duncan is all business tonight.

[Broheim Steamrollers 0]

I've never seen a team complain so much, holy fock. Especially in an elimination game, you gotta be kidding me Miami. I'm rooting for the Spurs but man this complaining is embarassing for the Heat.

[The Moz 69]

Spurs had the game and then just couldn't buy a basket. Missing so many gimme shots and wide open 3's in the 4th. Lebron I admit is playing possessed but The spurs really helped by just not making any shots.

[The Moz 69]

Meanwhile, Tim Duncan is trying to punctuate a career as the greatest PF in NBA history. He has no fear of any moment. Never has, the magnificent bastard (as a Mavs fan, nobody had kicked my team's ass more)

If Bill Russell played today he would be a PF -- therefore Tim Duncan will never be the best PF ever.

[Reality 2,710]

Duncan really showed up for the first half... basically put the spurs on his geriatric back and carried them to halftime... LeBron should take notes for future reference

Looks like he did..

[jerryskids 5,206]

Turned into quite a game here in the 4th.

[jerryskids 5,206]

That Parker guy is pretty good.

[WhiteWonder 2,172]

cough cough

[Reality 2,710]

That Parker guy is pretty good.

True statement

[The Moz 69]

Thats one Frenchie that doesn't surrender.

[MDC 5,892]

Muaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

[The Moz 69]

Looks like he did..

Then he remembered he always chokes in big games and followed suit.