Kansas bill would allow teachers to carry guns in schools...

[jerryskids 6,825]

 

So because you don't like his line of argument and he falls to the liberal side on this one issue, you just assign him as a liberal even though he espouses pretty conservative viewpoints regularly? And then you hit him with your "See, liberals lack empathy!" line. Gee, that's convenient.

 

Nice. I entered this discussion by pointing out that the idea is not to arm Mary the Librarian, and for him to take that MSM/HuffPo position was to eliminate any healthy debate on a topic I admitted was controversial and worth discussing. His response, showing tremendous empathy, was to change it to Suzie the Home Ec teacher. I wasted some more time with him until Penny admitted that he completely lacks the ability to understand the need to debate because the answer is so obvious.

 

Anyway, what is cyclone's line of argument other than since one resource officer didn't enter the fray no other armed officers/teachers will ever do so ever, and they are all old lady teachers?

[Hardcore troubadour 15,486]

What kind of training goes into getting a CC permit? None in most states. Why are we assuming they are proficient with a handgun?

[parrot 789]

 

Nice. I entered this discussion by pointing out that the idea is not to arm Mary the Librarian, and for him to take that MSM/HuffPo position was to eliminate any healthy debate on a topic I admitted was controversial and worth discussing. His response, showing tremendous empathy, was to change it to Suzie the Home Ec teacher. I wasted some more time with him until Penny admitted that he completely lacks the ability to understand the need to debate because the answer is so obvious.

 

Anyway, what is cyclone's line of argument other than since one resource officer didn't enter the fray no other armed officers/teachers will ever do so ever, and they are all old lady teachers?

 

It's not my job to interpret what cyclone is trying to say. It's just funny to see you haul out your 'Liberals lack empathy' thing when he is one of the 'Liberals' in question. I don't think many people think of cyclone as terribly liberal.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,486]

A NY teachers aid was arrested for bringing a gun to school today in West Nyack, an outer ring suburb of NYC. The gun was discovered when she left her bag open and left a room by the teacher. Yeah, she's a fully licensed CC holder. Great.

[jerryskids 6,825]

 

It's not my job to interpret what cyclone is trying to say. It's just funny to see you haul out your 'Liberals lack empathy' thing when he is one of the 'Liberals' in question. I don't think many people think of cyclone as terribly liberal.

 

He has clearly established himself as liberal on this topic.

 

Instead of playing mindless party hack, and since you own guns and support gun ownership, do you agree that this is a topic worth debating?

[SUXBNME 1,512]

What kind of training goes into getting a CC permit? None in most states. Why are we assuming they are proficient with a handgun?

 

What are the training requirements for obtaining a California License to Carry?

For new license applicants, the course of training for issuance of a license under Section 26150 or 26155 may be any course acceptable to the licensing authority, shall not exceed 16 hours, and shall include instruction on at least firearm safety and the law regarding the permissible use of a firearm.

The licensing authority may require a community college course certified by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, up to a maximum of 24 hours, but only if required uniformly of all license applicants without exception.

For license renewal applicants, the course of training may be any course acceptable to the licensing authority, shall be no less than four hours, and shall include instruction on at least firearm safety and the law regarding the permissible use of a firearm. No course of training shall be required for any person certified by the licensing authority as a trainer for purposes of this section, in order for that person to renew a license issued pursuant to this article.

The applicant shall not be required to pay for any training courses prior to the determination of good cause being made pursuant to Section 26202.

[cyclone24 1,913]

 

Nice. I entered this discussion by pointing out that the idea is not to arm Mary the Librarian, and for him to take that MSM/HuffPo position was to eliminate any healthy debate on a topic I admitted was controversial and worth discussing. His response, showing tremendous empathy, was to change it to Suzie the Home Ec teacher. I wasted some more time with him until Penny admitted that he completely lacks the ability to understand the need to debate because the answer is so obvious.

 

Anyway, what is cyclone's line of argument other than since one resource officer didn't enter the fray no other armed officers/teachers will ever do so ever, and they are all old lady teachers?

Jesus...Jerry laid out numbered reasons. It's in this thread if you looked. Instead you're hung up on me calling the librarian Mary or some .

 

Here...Dave the PE teacher. Better? Same difference.

[mobb_deep 920]

 

I am, in the context of this discussion. Have you seen our exchange? Has he shown any ability whatsoever to acknowledge let alone get my point about arming Mary the Librarian?

Hes also a pro-choice atheist.

[cyclone24 1,913]

Hes also a pro-choice atheist.

Yeah... conservative. Amirite? No? Ok.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,486]

A fifth grade teacher has been arrested for killing two people in a gang related incident in Georgia. The victims were 11 and 15. It was a home invasion, with the teacher being the invader.

[jerryskids 6,825]

Jesus...Jerry laid out numbered reasons. It's in this thread if you looked. Instead you're hung up on me calling the librarian Mary or some ######.

 

Here...Dave the PE teacher. Better? Same difference.

 

Do you punch yourself in the face before you post this stuff?

 

I'll try one more time but it is apparent I was right in the first place that I'm wasting finger muscles on you. It's not Mary or Suzie or Dave, some random teacher you hand a Glock and say "here, go kill someone$#@!" The idea would be to have actual trained teachers, perhaps with military or LEO background. I acknowledged that this is still a topic of discussion and that folks like MDC had brought up good topics to debate, I even introduced some concerns for such a debate. But you and folks like Penny are incapable of having those discussions, so congrats, enjoy letting 17 yr olds set your constitutional policy while you lose this fight where you might have actually accomplished something.

 

I honestly don't think you have two neurons to rub together, it is amazing your brain allows you to breathe.

[mobb_deep 920]

 

Do you punch yourself in the face before you post this stuff?

 

I'll try one more time but it is apparent I was right in the first place that I'm wasting finger muscles on you. It's not Mary or Suzie or Dave, some random teacher you hand a Glock and say "here, go kill someone$#@!" The idea would be to have actual trained teachers, perhaps with military or LEO background. I acknowledged that this is still a topic of discussion and that folks like MDC had brought up good topics to debate, I even introduced some concerns for such a debate. But you and folks like Penny are incapable of having those discussions, so congrats, enjoy letting 17 yr olds set your constitutional policy while you lose this fight where you might have actually accomplished something.

 

I honestly don't think you have two neurons to rub together, it is amazing your brain allows you to breathe.

Yeah cyclone! You just keep letting 17 year olds set your policies, while the rest of us let 80 year old lobbyists do it!

[cyclone24 1,913]

 

Do you punch yourself in the face before you post this stuff?

 

I'll try one more time but it is apparent I was right in the first place that I'm wasting finger muscles on you. It's not Mary or Suzie or Dave, some random teacher you hand a Glock and say "here, go kill someone$#@!" The idea would be to have actual trained teachers, perhaps with military or LEO background. I acknowledged that this is still a topic of discussion and that folks like MDC had brought up good topics to debate, I even introduced some concerns for such a debate. But you and folks like Penny are incapable of having those discussions, so congrats, enjoy letting 17 yr olds set your constitutional policy while you lose this fight where you might have actually accomplished something.

 

I honestly don't think you have two neurons to rub together, it is amazing your brain allows you to breathe.

Lol...says the guy that thinks there's just allllll these retired military people lining up to be teachers.

 

What other fantasy land ideas you want to vomit out in all your enlightenment? Maybe send teachers through seal training? Moron.

[jerryskids 6,825]

Lol...says the guy that thinks there's just allllll these retired military people lining up to be teachers.

 

What other fantasy land ideas you want to vomit out in all your enlightenment? Maybe send teachers through seal training? Moron.

 

What if there were though? I actually suspect that a lot of folks retire from the military and look towards teaching as a next career, although I don't have that data to confirm. I mentioned in another thread that I personally know two formal military men, one AF and the other Navy, who are teachers here. Tubby mentioned multiple National Guard Reserve teachers in his area.

 

So... what if we could leverage such folks? This may require you to walk and chew gum at the same time, but if you can process this possibility, let me know and we can talk.

[cyclone24 1,913]

 

What if there were though? I actually suspect that a lot of folks retire from the military and look towards teaching as a next career, although I don't have that data to confirm. I mentioned in another thread that I personally know two formal military men, one AF and the other Navy, who are teachers here. Tubby mentioned multiple National Guard Reserve teachers in his area.

 

So... what if we could leverage such folks? This may require you to walk and chew gum at the same time, but if you can process this possibility, let me know and we can talk.

Well pudding head... I've mentioned multiple times I'm ok with this as security, not as teachers. Chris Kyle and his friend were taken by surprise....so if those two can't draw quick enough I can't fathom how ex military guy focused on teaching suddenly will.

[jerryskids 6,825]

Well pudding head... I've mentioned multiple times I'm ok with this as security, not as teachers. Chris Kyle and his friend were taken by surprise....so if those two can't draw quick enough I can't fathom how ex military guy focused on teaching suddenly will.

 

I'm saying that many such folks are already teachers, Slingblade. And you use another isolated incident, this time with American Sniper, to logically prove that no trained responder let alone an ex military guy could ever in the history of ever draw quick enough? What the hell does that even mean? Do you expect psycho HS kids to lure such teachers into being alone and then draw their AR-15's unexpectedly and off them? Please bash your face into your keyboard in the hope that it knocks some sense into you.

 

For others, I'm still willing to entertain the intelligent debate.

[cyclone24 1,913]

 

I'm saying that many such folks are already teachers, Slingblade. And you use another isolated incident, this time with American Sniper, to logically prove that no trained responder let alone an ex military guy could ever in the history of ever draw quick enough? What the hell does that even mean? Do you expect psycho HS kids to lure such teachers into being alone and then draw their AR-15's unexpectedly and off them? Please bash your face into your keyboard in the hope that it knocks some sense into you.

 

For others, I'm still willing to entertain the intelligent debate.

Wake us up when you have something intelligent to say mmkay?

Considering it's past your bedtime already...grab your metamucil, drop your teeth in the jar by the bed and hope your eyes open in the morning.

 

I love you

[penultimatestraw 473]

Awesome! So you've lost the millions of us in the middle because you, like Cyclone, lack the ability to empathize with the other side. A typical liberal fatal flaw BTW. Carry on.

 

 

You think arming teachers is an “in the middle” position? How did you come to that conclusion?

 

For me at least, this has nothing to do with political ideology...I just think it’s a dumb idea, for all the reasons already mentioned.

[jerryskids 6,825]

Wake us up when you have something intelligent to say mmkay?

Considering it's past your bedtime already...grab your metamucil, drop your teeth in the jar by the bed and hope your eyes open in the morning.

 

I love you

 

Nice, old person insults, good debate. Is this where I mention you sitting at home eating bonbons playing with your bagina while your husband supports your family?

[cyclone24 1,913]

 

Nice, old person insults, good debate. Is this where I mention you sitting at home eating bonbons playing with your bagina while your husband supports your family?

I don't even eat bon bons....I mean unless yours buying. Have some?...ok I'll grab some... sounds good.

[the s is ilent 69]

The teachers probably will not be allowed to engage an active shooter. To much room for error.

 

More of a lock down and protect your classroom situation.

[jerryskids 6,825]

You think arming teachers is an “in the middle” position? How did you come to that conclusion?

 

For me at least, this has nothing to do with political ideology...I just think it’s a dumb idea, for all the reasons already mentioned.

 

I think enabling trained teachers, particularly ex military and LEO, to have access to weapons in the case of a mass shooting, is a middle position. You've already stated that you have no middle position and you think it is dumb, so I don't know why I bothered typing this.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,486]

 

I think enabling trained teachers, particularly ex military and LEO, to have access to weapons in the case of a mass shooting, is a middle position. You've already stated that you have no middle position and you think it is dumb, so I don't know why I bothered typing this.

Maybe if you said exclusively ex military and LEO it wouldn't sound so silly.

[jerryskids 6,825]

Maybe if you said exclusively ex military and LEO it wouldn't sound so silly.

 

Well, that could be part of the intelligent discussion that noone seems to want to have.

[frank 2,307]

Who's Kansas Bill?

[MDC 7,471]

You know a thread has gone south when I am getting invoked as the voice of reason.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Nice. I entered this discussion by pointing out that the idea is not to arm Mary the Librarian, and for him to take that MSM/HuffPo position was to eliminate any healthy debate on a topic I admitted was controversial and worth discussing. His response, showing tremendous empathy, was to change it to Suzie the Home Ec teacher. I wasted some more time with him until Penny admitted that he completely lacks the ability to understand the need to debate because the answer is so obvious.

 

Anyway, what is cyclone's line of argument other than since one resource officer didn't enter the fray no other armed officers/teachers will ever do so ever, and they are all old lady teachers?

How do you expect to have a reasoned debate when you characterize opposing viewpoints as purely based on the media in a derogatory manner?

 

I came to my conclusion without referencing said media BTW.

[penultimatestraw 473]

I think enabling trained teachers, particularly ex military and LEO, to have access to weapons in the case of a mass shooting, is a middle position. You've already stated that you have no middle position and you think it is dumb, so I don't know why I bothered typing this.

Im trying to understand where you’re coming from...and I don’t think it is anywhere near the middle.

 

I think a middle position may be more armed security in schools, but I’m not sure most people even want that. Particularly if you factor in the cost of such security vs. metal detectors/controlled access and other solutions. The small subset of highly trained teachers to which you refer might be accepted as well, but I think there a too few ex-Leo, etc. in the classroom to make a meaningful difference.

[tubby_mcgee 701]

Well pudding head... I've mentioned multiple times I'm ok with this as security, not as teachers. Chris Kyle and his friend were taken by surprise....so if those two can't draw quick enough I can't fathom how ex military guy focused on teaching suddenly will.

 

 

So is this armed gunman just going to pop in and surprise the the teacher with the gun? If that's the scenario you wrote up, then no. Teacher stands no chance.

 

I picture this:

 

Gunman comes into school...begins shooting...or maybe seen on camera and code red is announced. Chaos ensues. Gunman looking for targets. People running everywhere. Gunman doesn't know where the teacher is or which teacher or teachers have guns. He is unaware of his proximity to the person with the gun because he wasn't told before he entered the school "Mr. Jones has a gun, and he is on the couch in the teachers lounge". He walks past or points his gun or is looking around...when ....BAM....shot through his back into his heart and lungs.

 

From your posts, you envision this somehow being an organized showdown between a kid with an AR and a teacher with a single shot .22.

 

I don't see it that way.

[cyclone24 1,913]

 

 

So is this armed gunman just going to pop in and surprise the the teacher with the gun? If that's the scenario you wrote up, then no. Teacher stands no chance.

 

I picture this:

 

Gunman comes into school...begins shooting...or maybe seen on camera and code red is announced. Chaos ensues. Gunman looking for targets. People running everywhere. Gunman doesn't know where the teacher is or which teacher or teachers have guns. He is unaware of his proximity to the person with the gun because he wasn't told before he entered the school "Mr. Jones has a gun, and he is on the couch in the teachers lounge". He walks past or points his gun or is looking around...when ....BAM....shot through his back into his heart and lungs.

 

From your posts, you envision this somehow being an organized showdown between a kid with an AR and a teacher with a single shot .22.

 

I don't see it that way.

Actually what I Envision is kid goes into his classroom pulls a gun from his bag and mows down the teacher. Then he wipes out his class. Then goes out in the hallway and takes his chances.

Not sure the death toll is lower. I would anticipate the gunman just taking a different tactic than aimlessly roaming halls....for the very reason you stated.

[MDC 7,471]

 

 

So is this armed gunman just going to pop in and surprise the the teacher with the gun? If that's the scenario you wrote up, then no. Teacher stands no chance.

 

I picture this:

 

Gunman comes into school...begins shooting...or maybe seen on camera and code red is announced. Chaos ensues. Gunman looking for targets. People running everywhere. Gunman doesn't know where the teacher is or which teacher or teachers have guns. He is unaware of his proximity to the person with the gun because he wasn't told before he entered the school "Mr. Jones has a gun, and he is on the couch in the teachers lounge". He walks past or points his gun or is looking around...when ....BAM....shot through his back into his heart and lungs.

 

From your posts, you envision this somehow being an organized showdown between a kid with an AR and a teacher with a single shot .22.

 

I don't see it that way.

[tubby_mcgee 701]

Would you (any of you against it) rather have trained, prepared teachers potentially protecting your kid fvs a wild gunman or nothing at all?

If you say "nothing at all", I think you truly are scared of guns.

You seem to envision the worst. If I had told you I had 2 kids and a wife, and guns in the house, and a burglar breaks in, I think, that the scenario that many of you envision is, me, since I am not "secret service green beret trained" or am not wearing a cop uniform, that during the events of the break in, I'll start shooting, and the burglar will run off and my 3 bullets that I fire end up hitting my wife and each of my kids between the eyes.

I seriously think that because so many of you come up with scenarios where the teacher is completely focking retarded with the gun and is a liability instead of an asset.

Where I grew up and live.....80% of us see guns as "good" as we don't see the same things on our local news and a wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy higher percentage of families have guns, but wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy less gun violence (almost ZERO) occurs around here. That's the only thing I can think of why some of you are as seemingly paranoid about guns. It has to do with the area you grew up and live.

[cyclone24 1,913]

Would you (any of you against it) rather have trained, prepared teachers potentially protecting your kid fvs a wild gunman or nothing at all?

If you say "nothing at all", I think you truly are scared of guns.

 

You seem to envision the worst. If I had told you I had 2 kids and a wife, and guns in the house, and a burglar breaks in, I think, that the scenario that many of you envision is, me, since I am not "secret service green beret trained" or am not wearing a cop uniform, that during the events of the break in, I'll start shooting, and the burglar will run off and my 3 bullets that I fire end up hitting my wife and each of my kids between the eyes.

I seriously think that because so many of you come up with scenarios where the teacher is completely focking retarded with the gun and is a liability instead of an asset.

 

Where I grew up and live.....80% of us see guns as "good" as we don't see the same things on our local news and a wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy higher percentage of families have guns, but wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy less gun violence (almost ZERO) occurs around here. That's the only thing I can think of why some of you are as seemingly paranoid about guns. It has to do with the area you grew up and live.

Not at all. But you guys want to promote this as the Cure to our gun problem. More guns!

 

We're just pointing out the potential problems and logical issues this would most likely create.

 

I have zero doubts that if we arm a bunch of teachers the number of deaths from those guns would far outweigh the number of lives saved in an average school shooting.

I mean go down that road. Let's say a good number for a school shooting was the Parkland shooting and let's put it at 17. Pretty high number I would say. There is no way if you armed teachers in every school in America that fewer than 17 would die because of the guns the teachers had.

[tubby_mcgee 701]

Actually what I Envision is kid goes into his classroom pulls a gun from his bag and mows down the teacher. Then he wipes out his class. Then goes out in the hallway and takes his chances.

Not sure the death toll is lower. I would anticipate the gunman just taking a different tactic than aimlessly roaming halls....for the very reason you stated.

 

So we call the cops? We wait for the cops to show up? The cop will get him.

 

I think its crazy you are fixated on "non cop" = hopeless.

 

If I need a 3/4" wrench to fix the focking leaking pipe, but all I have is a focking adjustable (crescent) wrench, by god, I'm gonna go with it.

[tubby_mcgee 701]

Not at all. But you guys want to promote this as the Cure to our gun problem. More guns!

 

 

 

 

There is no cure. None. Zero.

 

But, if you were somehow targeted by a gang of drug dealers (I'm thinking like on Breaking Bad), you're telling me you would choose NO ARMED GUARDS vs HAVING ARMED GUARDS?

 

Which would you pick?

 

Essentially, these kids in schools are targeted. So you are saying NO PROTECTION for them is BETTER than ARMED PROTECTION?

 

That makes zero sense.

[cyclone24 1,913]

 

So we call the cops? We wait for the cops to show up? The cop will get him.

 

I think its crazy you are fixated on "non cop" = hopeless.

 

If I need a 3/4" wrench to fix the focking leaking pipe, but all I have is a focking adjustable (crescent) wrench, by god, I'm gonna go with it.

No I've mentioned earlier I'm okay if one of those types of people is a security person for the school. I just don't want them teaching.

 

I mean if you want them teaching I think you have to admit being realistic since they are not focused on security that they are going to get taken by surprise. I think you would have to also logically say the shooter will probably have more Firepower coming in.

I'm not saying they would be helpless but what I am saying is they would be put at two very distinct disadvantages right off the bat.

[cyclone24 1,913]

 

 

There is no cure. None. Zero.

 

But, if you were somehow targeted by a gang of drug dealers (I'm thinking like on Breaking Bad), you're telling me you would choose NO ARMED GUARDS vs HAVING ARMED GUARDS?

 

Which would you pick?

 

Essentially, these kids in schools are targeted. So you are saying NO PROTECTION for them is BETTER than ARMED PROTECTION?

 

That makes zero sense.

I'm advocating fixing the problem not just adding more guns and experience to combat our gun problem. I mean let's be honest all we are really going to do even if we prevented every school shooting is just move them over to our malls or sporting events or to our grocery stores. In my opinion that's not really fixing the problem

[SUXBNME 1,512]

Actually what I Envision is kid goes into his classroom pulls a gun from his bag and mows down the teacher. Then he wipes out his class. Then goes out in the hallway and takes his chances.

Not sure the death toll is lower. I would anticipate the gunman just taking a different tactic than aimlessly roaming halls....for the very reason you stated.

Kinda hard to fit one of them "assault rifles" in a bag that won't be noticed

Plus the fact that one can't "mow them down" with one either.

 

I know what you're getting at, though. Point taken

[SUXBNME 1,512]

 

And if you get clipped by a 9mm, you're more likely to still be mobile, than if you got clipped by .223 or .308 projectile.

Uhh, yea right.

Take it from someone experienced with this. If you get hit with a .22, you're gonna take note and pretty much fall down withering in pain wondering wtf just happened to you.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Uhh, yea right.

Take it from someone experienced with this. If you get hit with a .22, you're gonna take note and pretty much fall down withering in pain wondering wtf just happened to you.

Tell us more about your experience being shot.