penultimatestraw 473 Posted May 21, 2018 I don't I learned long ago that people are inherently evil, and it takes strong will to be a good person. Its much easier to shift into evil than to go in the other direction when you believe as I do, you want to have the means to protect yourself from evil I believe almost the opposite - most people are inherently good, albeit selfish, but their circumstances can lead them down a bad path. And while its easier in the short term to do the wrong thing, ultimately life is much simpler if you try and do things right. If you believe as I do, you don't worry too much about protecting yourself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745 Posted May 21, 2018 I believe almost the opposite - most people are inherently good, albeit selfish, but their circumstances can lead them down a bad path. And while its easier in the short term to do the wrong thing, ultimately life is much simpler if you try and do things right. If you believe as I do, you don't worry too much about protecting yourself. Ill split the difference. Sins of action, murder, theft, rape, etc., Ill agree with you. Most people dont do such things, for a variety of reasons. Its the sins of omission where I agree with him. To be a good person requires discipline. Work. Effort. And still, we all fail and always will. That is the kind of sin we all battle everyday. Being a selfish pr!ck. Being a good friend. A good parent. Just a generally good person. That is one of the major flaws of the last several generations. They all grow up believing they are good. Special. Perfect even. Why work to become better, either as a person or in any endevour? (Btw, I use sin as to mean anything that harms someone else. I dont give a fock what the imaginary guy and his book say.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penultimatestraw 473 Posted May 21, 2018 Ill split the difference. Sins of action, murder, theft, rape, etc., Ill agree with you. Most people dont do such things, for a variety of reasons. Its the sins of omission where I agree with him. To be a good person requires discipline. Work. Effort. And still, we all fail and always will. That is the kind of sin we all battle everyday. Being a selfish pr!ck. Being a good friend. A good parent. Just a generally good person. That is one of the major flaws of the last several generations. They all grow up believing they are good. Special. Perfect even. Why work to become better, either as a person or in any endevour? (Btw, I use sin as to mean anything that harms someone else. I dont give a fock what the imaginary guy and his book say.) Fair enough. I'm far more on the Pollyanna end of the spectrum. But I'm not saying people are perfect; rather they are mostly good. While its easy to be lazy, a lot of everyday sins require effort to maintain. Greed and dishonesty in particular will quickly bite you in a$$. I can't imagine going through life assuming everyone is inherently evil. No wonder guys resort to mind altering substances to escape that sh!tty reality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745 Posted May 21, 2018 Fair enough. I'm far more on the Pollyanna end of the spectrum. But I'm not saying people are perfect; rather they are mostly good. While its easy to be lazy, a lot of everyday sins require effort to maintain. Greed and dishonesty in particular will quickly bite you in a$$. I can't imagine going through life assuming everyone is inherently evil. No wonder guys resort to mind altering substances to escape that sh!tty reality. I was raised that way more or less. My dad used to always say to never, ever trust anyone. People will always fock you over given the chance. That sort of thing. My legal education and experience reinforced that. I agree with you. That attitude is poison. What is the point of living that way? Its a fine line. Too far one way and youre destined to be sucker. Constantly being screwed over. Too far the other and youre a bitter miserable solitary person. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penultimatestraw 473 Posted May 21, 2018 I was raised that way more or less. My dad used to always say to never, ever trust anyone. People will always fock you over given the chance. That sort of thing. My legal education and experience reinforced that. I agree with you. That attitude is poison. What is the point of living that way? Its a fine line. Too far one way and youre destined to be sucker. Constantly being screwed over. Too far the other and youre a bitter miserable solitary person. My dad was the same way. Always carried a gun, trusted no one. His final words to me on his deathbed: don't let women ruin your life. Seeing how miserable he was pushed me the other way. I'd much rather believe in the goodness of humanity and be taken advantage of now and then, than submit to such a toxic world view. About half way done, so far, so good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alias Detective 1,179 Posted May 21, 2018 I wouldnt go so far as a murder charge. But assuming his guns were not in a safe or otherwise secured he should be held criminally liable to the tune of jail time IMO. If someone stole a knife or car from me and did the unthinkable......I still bad? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MDC 5,895 Posted May 21, 2018 If someone stole a knife or car from me and did the unthinkable......I still bad?No, but stabbing people / driving over then isnt the primary purpose of a knife or car. Why are you so opposed to gun owners responsibly locking up their firearms? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alias Detective 1,179 Posted May 21, 2018 No, but stabbing people / driving over then isnt the primary purpose of a knife or car. Why are you so opposed to gun owners responsibly locking up their firearms? I'm not. I just need to know the level of lock up as AGAIN the person who doesn't do ANYTHING wrong can get burned. How about we immediately hang those who steal guns right in the downtown square for all to see. Do you support that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
edjr 5,568 Posted May 21, 2018 I am 100% anti-gun. Sadly, guns are not the issue. That being said, no one needs an AR for any reason Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MDC 5,895 Posted May 21, 2018 I'm not. I just need to know the level of lock up as AGAIN the person who doesn't do ANYTHING wrong can get burned. Sure, the appropriate level of locking up your guns is a gun safe. HTH? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bert 1,092 Posted May 21, 2018 Don't care about the he quote. Amazes me this guy is still around. Bad comic. Limited part in one sitcom 30 years ago. Still, just keeps clawing for whatever gig he can get. Sounds like Bill Maher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MTSkiBum 1,594 Posted May 21, 2018 Fair enough. I'm far more on the Pollyanna end of the spectrum. But I'm not saying people are perfect; rather they are mostly good. While its easy to be lazy, a lot of everyday sins require effort to maintain. Greed and dishonesty in particular will quickly bite you in a$$. I can't imagine going through life assuming everyone is inherently evil. No wonder guys resort to mind altering substances to escape that sh!tty reality. This. The vast majority of people are good people, they will help out strangers, and are not looking to do harm to other people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iam90sbaby 2,125 Posted May 21, 2018 People that think most people are inherently good are naive as hell. We are the most savage species the Earth has ever seen. There were once what once 5-6 other homo-species on the earth or something? We wiped every single one of them out. We are nasty. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parrot 789 Posted May 21, 2018 Sure we have a mental health problem, so let's give the guy in the padded room access to a fire ax. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DankNuggs 305 Posted May 21, 2018 I am 100% anti-gun. Sadly, guns are not the issue. That being said, no one needs an AR for any reason Its like everything else. No responsibility... Why isnt the father locked up who allowed his son to take his guns and shoot up a school? If you can not protect your weapons from being taken you shouldn't have them. If they are taken and used in a crime you should be liable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penultimatestraw 473 Posted May 21, 2018 People that think most people are inherently good are naive as hell. We are the most savage species the Earth has ever seen. There were once what once 5-6 other homo-species on the earth or something? We wiped every single one of them out. We are nasty. Meh. But I think we're getting at why some of you have such a strong need for weapons. Probably why a lot of people kill themselves as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iam90sbaby 2,125 Posted May 21, 2018 Meh. But I think we're getting at why some of you have such a strong need for weapons. Probably why a lot of people kill themselves as well. We don't. The left just doesn't see a need for them at all so any want that the right has is seen as a strong need. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RaiderHaters Revenge 3,594 Posted May 21, 2018 I am trying to find the study presented thru Prager that says the largest reason why people are on the left or the right, is the way you view good/evil. Most on the left feel people are good, with some bad ones, while most on the right feel people are bad and it requires morality to be good Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penultimatestraw 473 Posted May 21, 2018 We don't. The left just doesn't see a need for them at all so any want that the right has is seen as a strong need. It's especially sad that you feel so cynical about humanity at such a young age. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iam90sbaby 2,125 Posted May 21, 2018 I am trying to find the study presented thru Prager that says the largest reason why people are on the left or the right, is the way you view good/evil. Most on the left feel people are good, with some bad ones, while most on the right feel people are bad and it requires morality to be good I watched that a few months ago. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iam90sbaby 2,125 Posted May 21, 2018 It's especially sad that you feel so cynical about humanity at such a young age. I don't feel cynical about people. The people I allow in my life I know are good, loving and caring people. But to assume any stranger you meet is a good person more than willing to help you out is stupid. Really stupid. People are liars and they are selfish. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penultimatestraw 473 Posted May 21, 2018 I am trying to find the study presented thru Prager that says the largest reason why people are on the left or the right, is the way you view good/evil. Most on the left feel people are good, with some bad ones, while most on the right feel people are bad and it requires morality to be good Sounds interesting, and would explain a lot. But it's not that I don't believe in morality, rather, I just disagree with you regarding at the starting point for most people on the good-evil spectrum. Also note MTSki is conservative, so it probably shouldn't be conflated to political ideology. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penultimatestraw 473 Posted May 21, 2018 I don't feel cynical about people. The people I allow in my life I know are good, loving and caring people. But to assume any stranger you meet is a good person more than willing to help you out is stupid. Really stupid. People are liars and they are selfish. That's oversimplifying things, but amazingl,y both of us can exist believing as we do. And Ive been on this planet a lot longer than you, with no real bad consequence from my beliefs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RaiderHaters Revenge 3,594 Posted May 21, 2018 Sounds interesting, and would explain a lot. But it's not that I don't believe in morality, rather, I just disagree with you regarding at the starting point for most people on the good-evil spectrum. Also note MTSki is conservative, so it probably shouldn't be conflated to political ideology. no its just a generalization. And quite frankly probably has a lot to do with religion, I know I am in the extreme minority of being an atheist conservative Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IMMensaMind 459 Posted May 21, 2018 Fair enough. I'm far more on the Pollyanna end of the spectrum. But I'm not saying people are perfect; rather they are mostly good. While its easy to be lazy, a lot of everyday sins require effort to maintain. Greed and dishonesty in particular will quickly bite you in a$$. I can't imagine going through life assuming everyone is inherently evil. No wonder guys resort to mind altering substances to escape that sh!tty reality. How can people be both inherently good and inherently selfish? That's a contradictory thought, as there is nothing 'good' about selfishness. The fact that you acknowledge a base selfish is evidence that you don't feel comfortable fully coming to terms with something your subconscious is already telling you. I can assure you: you can navigate life just fine if you understand that the core nature of man is evil. It prepares you far better to protect yourself against hardship or danger, and it allows you to more adeptly navigate reality, instead of trying to 'escape' it. Just because man's nature is evil doesn't mean that the forces which counter said evil are powerless. My belief is that our nature is evil, because our nature is imperfect; that nature itself is imperfect (it decays: entropy). Before an in-depth conversation on this topic can take place, we would need to define both good and evil. That's difficult to do, without introducing metaphysical terms and religious beliefs for both. 1. Does everyone even accept the existence of 'evil' beyond an act which is consciously engaged in which would be considered deleterious to another party? 2. Is 'evil' the opposite of 'good', or merely the absence of it? 3. Is 'bad' something else, or simply a degree of 'evil' that we assign to describe unacceptable behavior? 4. Do some things (ignorance, apathy, lack of discipline, etc) leave us prone to tip either way? Lots of ground to cover. I believe that the origin of both good and evil are conscious entities, and our reality is shaped around the influence that these conscious entities have on us and our surroundings. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IMMensaMind 459 Posted May 21, 2018 This. The vast majority of people are good people, they will help out strangers, and are not looking to do harm to other people. How do you know that their outward charitable behavior is not conditioned, but inherent? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iam90sbaby 2,125 Posted May 21, 2018 How can people be both inherently good and inherently selfish? That's a contradictory thought, as there is nothing 'good' about selfishness. The fact that you acknowledge a base selfish is evidence that you don't feel comfortable fully coming to terms with something your subconscious is already telling you. I can assure you: you can navigate life just fine if you understand that the core nature of man is evil. It prepares you far better to protect yourself against hardship or danger, and it allows you to more adeptly navigate reality, instead of trying to 'escape' it. Just because man's nature is evil doesn't mean that the forces which counter said evil are powerless. My belief is that our nature is evil, because our nature is imperfect; that nature itself is imperfect (it decays: entropy). Before an in-depth conversation on this topic can take place, we would need to define both good and evil. That's difficult to do, without introducing metaphysical terms and religious beliefs for both. 1. Does everyone even accept the existence of 'evil' beyond an act which is consciously engaged in which would be considered deleterious to another party? 2. Is 'evil' the opposite of 'good', or merely the absence of it? 3. Is 'bad' something else, or simply a degree of 'evil' that we assign to describe unacceptable behavior? 4. Do some things (ignorance, apathy, lack of discipline, etc) leave us prone to tip either way? Lots of ground to cover. I believe that the origin of both good and evil are conscious entities, and our reality is shaped around the influence that these conscious entities have on us and our surroundings. Post more. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RaiderHaters Revenge 3,594 Posted May 21, 2018 This one? thats the one 90's makes complete sense to me 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bandrus1 413 Posted May 21, 2018 Who needs to read Locke and hobbes when you have this guy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MTSkiBum 1,594 Posted May 21, 2018 Who needs to read Locke and hobbes when you have this guy I read every Calvin and Hobbes when I was a kid, is that close? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penultimatestraw 473 Posted May 21, 2018 This one? Interesting, but way too simplistic. Good and evil are a spectrum; where each us fall is the question at hand. Inherently, I think we're much more on the good side, though we can certainly be made better to overcome bad qualities like selfishness. Likewise, we can be made worse. Its a combination of nature and nuture. But the idea that most people being born good obviates the need for parenting is ridiculous. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kutulu 1,551 Posted May 21, 2018 Am I evil? Yes I am. Am I evil? I am man, yes I am Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloaca du jour 2,064 Posted May 21, 2018 I read every Calvin and Hobbes when I was a kid, is that close? Used to be a great doc on netflix. Dear Mr. Watterston. If its still there...check it out. I loved C&H growing up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wiffleball 4,647 Posted May 22, 2018 Sounds like Bill Maher Bill was in a sitcom? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bandrus1 413 Posted May 22, 2018 Interesting, but way too simplistic. Good and evil are a spectrum; where each us fall is the question at hand. Inherently, I think we're much more on the good side, though we can certainly be made better to overcome bad qualities like selfishness. Likewise, we can be made worse. Its a combination of nature and nuture. But the idea that most people being born good obviates the need for parenting is ridiculous. That's because it is completely over simplified and stupid... Good and evil is completely normative in this video Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penultimatestraw 473 Posted May 22, 2018 That's because it is completely over simplified and stupid... Good and evil is completely normative in this videoyep. Post more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BunnysBastatrds 1,921 Posted May 22, 2018 Meh. But I think we're getting at why some of you have such a strong need for weapons. Probably why a lot of people kill themselves as well. This is the most retarded thing I've heard here in a while. Amazing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bandrus1 413 Posted May 22, 2018 yep. Post more. Post more? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites