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Hawkeye21

Internet for All

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5 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

If schools start going to online teaching would it be fair to say that internet is a basic service that everyone should have access to?  Make it available like over-the-air TV broadcasts to everyone for free.  I saw this brought up on Twitter and I found it interesting.

Instead of giving a commodity out for free, how about this - Because all school functions are being cancelled or suspended, money for extra curricular activities is not being spent.  How about... spend that money on thumb drives?  Teachers are putting together things for kids to do online, they can create pdf's and just put it on the thumb drives.  The parents of these kids can then pick up these thumb drives at the schools and them home to the kids.  The kids can then do their work and put it on the thumb drive and then bring them to the school.  At the school, there can be people there who can upload that to wherever it needs to go for the teachers to look at it.  I mean, it's not that much of an effort since we're only talking about a very small amount of kids.  If the school has 1,000 students, we're only talking about 200 (if the 20% is actually accurate), so the effort should be minimal.

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2 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Instead of giving a commodity out for free, how about this - Because all school functions are being cancelled or suspended, money for extra curricular activities is not being spent.  How about... spend that money on thumb drives?  Teachers are putting together things for kids to do online, they can create pdf's and just put it on the thumb drives.  The parents of these kids can then pick up these thumb drives at the schools and them home to the kids.  The kids can then do their work and put it on the thumb drive and then bring them to the school.  At the school, there can be people there who can upload that to wherever it needs to go for the teachers to look at it.  I mean, it's not that much of an effort since we're only talking about a very small amount of kids.  If the school has 1,000 students, we're only talking about 200 (if the 20% is actually accurate), so the effort should be minimal.

That's definitely cost efficient.

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Just now, Hawkeye21 said:

That's definitely cost efficient.

You can go onto Amazon.com right now and by a 20 pack of 2GB thumb drives for $50.  If there's 200 kids, that's 10 packs... $500.  I'm willing to bet that if a school wanted to get 1,000 2GB thumb drives (so that there's backups), a deal can be made at a cost less than $2,000.  Each kid can get one.  Heck, you can even set up a few computers at the school that the parent can go to and upload the kids work and download the teachers information.

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5 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

If schools start going to online teaching would it be fair to say that internet is a basic service that everyone should have access to?  Make it available like over-the-air TV broadcasts to everyone for free.  I saw this brought up on Twitter and I found it interesting.

Some cities already offer free internet.  Santa Monica, CA has free internet service.  You can go down to the beach, sit a a bar, and get on the internet for free on a laptop.

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5 hours ago, fandandy said:

According to my daughter, her school cannot do internet-based learning during this lockdown because 20% of her classmates do not have the internet at home.  

Online learning is going to be much more common in the future and this issue needs to be addressed.  Not sure how or by who but something needs to be done.  

Actually what's going to happen is the need for an actual school will go away because it'll be vastly cheaper for parents to organize their own home schooling on the internet.

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8 minutes ago, riversco said:

Some cities already offer free internet.  Santa Monica, CA has free internet service.  You can go down to the beach, sit a a bar, and get on the internet for free on a laptop.

Porn?

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How do China and North Korea distribute the internet to their citizens? Is it free for them, and are certain websites censored so that citizens can only see what the government wants?

I would speculate that if the USA had free internet, and the Democrats ever regained power, internet propaganda would be off the charts.

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6 hours ago, TimmySmith said:

Been saying it for years.  The internet is the gateway to commerce and therefore should be for for all.  And will be eventually. 

Cool.  Then the gubmint can just turn it off whenever they want.

Democrats - once they get back in power - will be silencing opposing voices by shutting it down on them.

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4 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

Cool.  Then the gubmint can just turn it off whenever they want.

Are you under some delusion they can't do that right now?

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6 hours ago, lickin_starfish said:

How do China and North Korea distribute the internet to their citizens? Is it free for them, and are certain websites censored so that citizens can only see what the government wants?

I would speculate that if the USA had free internet, and the Democrats ever regained power, internet propaganda would be off the charts.

Nothing is free in this world. Socialists and Communists just do't like to put on the receipt that being a slave to the government is the actual price you pay.  

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I just want better faster and cheaper like the rest of the world.  We get raked over the coals for crap internet.

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17 hours ago, Strike said:

You clearly don't know how the internet works.  If you did know how the Internet works then you'd know data flows BOTH ways.  It's not like TV.  You don't just broadcast from an antenna to a receiver.  And you said you want it to be good enough for videoconferencing.  Videoconferencing, as well as video in general, is very sensitive to latency.  Most technologies lesser than DSL/Cable modem suck due to latency.  That's why satellite internet, while better than dial up due to it's speed, is not considered a good technology for internet. 

 

SpaceX is working on a low-earth orbit (LEO) satellite constellation called Starlink which, if successful, would overcome the latency problem.  Motorola tried this decades ago with a project called Teledesic which was a followon to Iridium.  Iridium is GEO and is still a successful business for governments and companies that need phone service in the middle of nowhere.  Anyway, Teledesic failed because a LEO satellite, by definition, does not stay in one place relative to a location on earth.  Therefore, instead of a single transceiver pointed to a fixed location, they needed two transceivers which moved:  one tracking the current satellite, and the other moving to find and lock on the next satellite, then vice versa.  This is hella expensive in equipment, maintenance (broken servos from the rigors of constant movement), not to mention SW complexity.

I don't know how Elon and crew plan to overcome this, but I presume they have one.  :dunno:

17 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Instead of giving a commodity out for free, how about this - Because all school functions are being cancelled or suspended, money for extra curricular activities is not being spent.  How about... spend that money on thumb drives?  Teachers are putting together things for kids to do online, they can create pdf's and just put it on the thumb drives.  The parents of these kids can then pick up these thumb drives at the schools and them home to the kids.  The kids can then do their work and put it on the thumb drive and then bring them to the school.  At the school, there can be people there who can upload that to wherever it needs to go for the teachers to look at it.  I mean, it's not that much of an effort since we're only talking about a very small amount of kids.  If the school has 1,000 students, we're only talking about 200 (if the 20% is actually accurate), so the effort should be minimal.

A problem with thumb drives is that they are security nightmares; very easy for malware to get on them and transfer to another computer.  But I like the premise of your idea.  :thumbsup:

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51 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

A problem with thumb drives is that they are security nightmares; very easy for malware to get on them and transfer to another computer.  But I like the premise of your idea.  :thumbsup:

If I remember correctly, don't virus' need to be a part of an executable file?  If all a student is doing is reading off of a pdf, doing the work however is needed, then putting that file on the thumb drive, no executable files are being run.  After the thumb drive is brought to the school, the information is then being uploaded to wherever it needs to go without any files being run.

 

Who's a computer nerd... am I right, you need an executable file?

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5 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

If I remember correctly, don't virus' need to be a part of an executable file?  If all a student is doing is reading off of a pdf, doing the work however is needed, then putting that file on the thumb drive, no executable files are being run.  After the thumb drive is brought to the school, the information is then being uploaded to wherever it needs to go without any files being run.

 

Who's a computer nerd... am I right, you need an executable file?

You are incorrect.  Malware payloads can be driven by all sorts of file types.  The only known file type that is secure is a TXT file because it is pure text.  Anything else can deliver a payload.  Furthermore, just plugging in a USB drive can infect the device.  This is why many firms prevent their use.  

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1 minute ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

You are incorrect.  Malware payloads can be driven by all sorts of file types.  The only known file type that is secure is a TXT file because it is pure text.  Anything else can deliver a payload.  Furthermore, just plugging in a USB drive can infect the device.  This is why many firms prevent their use.  

Gotchya, thanks.

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The biggest problem with Internet for All, or any <insert thing> for All, is the "All" part.  It's a typical liberal unicorn that makes things unworkable.  Medicare for All, etc.  The last 10% generally costs 50% or more of the total.  Tell you what, if you choose to live in the sticks of Montana or the swamps of Florida with nobody around for miles, you don't get internet for free.  If you want to pay, fine.  If you want to remotely educate your kids, too bad, move somewhere that has internet.  We have no constitutional obligation to provide you internet (or for that matter, free education) because you live in the boonies.

Also we would need a disruptive technology like Starlink to make it feasible in any event.  And we should severely limit the access/data rates available through such means.

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5 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

The biggest problem with Internet for All, or any <insert thing> for All, is the "All" part.  It's a typical liberal unicorn that makes things unworkable.  Medicare for All, etc.  The last 10% generally costs 50% or more of the total.  Tell you what, if you choose to live in the sticks of Montana or the swamps of Florida with nobody around for miles, you don't get internet for free.  If you want to pay, fine.  If you want to remotely educate your kids, too bad, move somewhere that has internet.  We have no constitutional obligation to provide you internet (or for that matter, free education) because you live in the boonies.

Also we would need a disruptive technology like Starlink to make it feasible in any event.  And we should severely limit the access/data rates available through such means.

I th8nk people building in flood prone areas should Pound want too.  Especially coastal areas.

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10 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

The biggest problem with Internet for All, or any <insert thing> for All, is the "All" part.  It's a typical liberal unicorn that makes things unworkable.  Medicare for All, etc.  The last 10% generally costs 50% or more of the total.  Tell you what, if you choose to live in the sticks of Montana or the swamps of Florida with nobody around for miles, you don't get internet for free.  If you want to pay, fine.  If you want to remotely educate your kids, too bad, move somewhere that has internet.  We have no constitutional obligation to provide you internet (or for that matter, free education) because you live in the boonies.

Also we would need a disruptive technology like Starlink to make it feasible in any event.  And we should severely limit the access/data rates available through such means.

Is it possible that in the future, internet for all could be a constitutional right like OTA broadcast is?

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2 hours ago, jerryskids said:

SpaceX is working on a low-earth orbit (LEO) satellite constellation called Starlink which, if successful, would overcome the latency problem.  Motorola tried this decades ago with a project called Teledesic which was a followon to Iridium.  Iridium is GEO and is still a successful business for governments and companies that need phone service in the middle of nowhere.  Anyway, Teledesic failed because a LEO satellite, by definition, does not stay in one place relative to a location on earth.  Therefore, instead of a single transceiver pointed to a fixed location, they needed two transceivers which moved:  one tracking the current satellite, and the other moving to find and lock on the next satellite, then vice versa.  This is hella expensive in equipment, maintenance (broken servos from the rigors of constant movement), not to mention SW complexity.

 

- Musk is predicting good latency from his endeavor but when he first proposed it he didn't expect it to be that good.   So, we will see.....

- Musk has already said that his system wouldn't work in urban areas.  So it might help with the rural area issue but would fail us as a single solution in big cities.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/03/musk-says-starlink-isnt-for-big-cities-wont-be-huge-threat-to-telcos/

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34 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Is it possible that in the future, internet for all could be a constitutional right like OTA broadcast is?

OTA TV is a constitutional right? 

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2 minutes ago, Strike said:

OTA TV is a constitutional right? 

I believe it is under the First Amendment, from what I've read.

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2 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I believe it is under the First Amendment, from what I've read.

Surely you can provide a link to "what you've read."

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6 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I'm not going to go through that doc point by point as it's long and legal, but I will quote this one section:

Quote

It may seem logical to conclude that since the Supreme Court recognizes an individual’s right to receive information, the Court would similarly recognize a corresponding state obligation to provide information. In the television context, therefore, this obligation would seemingly require the government to supply an operating TV to each individual without the means to purchase one. The Court, however, has never read the right to receive information to require positive government action. Rather, the right to receive information, like most individual rights, has always been used to imply a “negative” right, that is, the right to be free from state interference.

So, even if we were to agree on the constitutional right to TV/Internet, there would be no obligation for the government to provide it.

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5 minutes ago, Strike said:

I'm not going to go through that doc point by point as it's long and legal, but I will quote this one section:

So, even if we were to agree on the constitutional right to TV/Internet, there would be no obligation for the government to provide it.

It's kind of confusing so I may not have it right.

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1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

It's kind of confusing so I may not have it right.

Not really.  The doc you linked was in regards to a program the feds put in place when they were phasing out analog TV in favor of digital TV.  Well, that would have made all the analog TV's in America worthless without a digital converter box.  So, the feds said they'd provide one on a one time basis.  You can't get them to give you one now.  Basically, while they discussed the right to information what the doc/lawsuit was about was getting the government to retrofit current TV's to accept digital signals.  You're trying to take this "right to communication" and make it much more than it is.  What they're saying is the government can't stop you from getting information and, in that case, the government would have by making your TV obsolete unless you spent additional money.  So, the government gave it to you for free.  That's it.  No requirement that the government actually provide you information, or the means to get it.

If anything, your own link disproves your theory that there is some right to TV and/or Internet.

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20 hours ago, riversco said:

Actually what's going to happen is the need for an actual school will go away because it'll be vastly cheaper for parents to organize their own home schooling on the internet.

Hahahahahhahahahahahha

Maybe 10 percent of parents...the rest dont care...

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20 hours ago, riversco said:

Some cities already offer free internet.  Santa Monica, CA has free internet service.  You can go down to the beach, sit a a bar, and get on the internet for free on a laptop.

Not today you can't. 

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If a family doesn’t have internet, the likelihood of them working and understanding a thumb drive is very low. 
Also, you’re assuming the parent(s) to be motivated to help their kids. 

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So, if I have to pay for them to have Internet, do they also require a device to use?  Just trying to figure out where all of the handouts end.  I don't quite understand socialism real well. 

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8 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

So, if I have to pay for them to have Internet, do they also require a device to use?  Just trying to figure out where all of the handouts end.  I don't quite understand socialism real well. 

They'd have to provide their own device or use one provided by the school if they do that.

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