The NBA stands with the Asian Community.....

[dogcows 1,029]

2 hours ago, jonmx said:

You need to get away from whatever ivory tower you belong to and talk to real people.  88% of whites think the media coverage of police shootings are overblown (UMass Lowell Research).  63% of whites think our country has done enough in giving equal rights to blacks (pew research).   54% of whites do not believe they receive advantage from their race (pew research) .  So most white people think you as full of crao with your white privilege rhetoric and your excessive media coverage of these issues. 

So a lot of white people think that systemic racism isn’t real; this isn’t a surprise. It makes sense since they never personally experienced it. Funny how almost all black people say it’s real. And yet I read in this forum that it’s only “woke white liberals” who care about this. Obviously from the polls you quoted, the people who care most about it are black people, not white bleeding-heart libz.

Those whining about excessive media coverage just want to live in THEIR bubble where the world just turned to sunshine and lollipops for black people the day the Supreme Court ruled on Brown v. Board of Education.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,646]

1 minute ago, dogcows said:

So a lot of white people think that systemic racism isn’t real; this isn’t a surprise. It makes sense since they never personally experienced it. Funny how almost all black people say it’s real. And yet I read in this forum that it’s only “woke white liberals” who care about this. Obviously from the polls you quoted, the people who care most about it are black people, not white bleeding-heart libz.

Those whining about excessive media coverage just want to live in THEIR bubble where the world just turned to sunshine and lollipops for black people the day the Supreme Court ruled on Brown v. Board of Education.

I don’t think you or those black people know the difference between systematic and feeling uncomfortable.  

[dogcows 1,029]

6 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I don’t think you or those black people know the difference between systematic and feeling uncomfortable.  

You’re quite the expert on systemic racism now, eh? BTW, it’s systemic, not systematic. They mean different things. 

[jonmx 1,589]

47 minutes ago, dogcows said:

So a lot of white people think that systemic racism isn’t real; this isn’t a surprise. It makes sense since they never personally experienced it. Funny how almost all black people say it’s real. And yet I read in this forum that it’s only “woke white liberals” who care about this. Obviously from the polls you quoted, the people who care most about it are black people, not white bleeding-heart libz.

Those whining about excessive media coverage just want to live in THEIR bubble where the world just turned to sunshine and lollipops for black people the day the Supreme Court ruled on Brown v. Board of Education.

At least you know when to backtrack.  When you lose an argument pull the race card.  Liberals are real turds.  

[listen2me 23 1,542]

48 minutes ago, dogcows said:

So a lot of white people think that systemic racism isn’t real; this isn’t a surprise. It makes sense since they never personally experienced it. Funny how almost all black people say it’s real. And yet I read in this forum that it’s only “woke white liberals” who care about this. Obviously from the polls you quoted, the people who care most about it are black people, not white bleeding-heart libz.

Those whining about excessive media coverage just want to live in THEIR bubble where the world just turned to sunshine and lollipops for black people the day the Supreme Court ruled on Brown v. Board of Education.

You want a Utopia that isnt possible and ruins things in the process of failing.  

We take some major stand now although blacks have it better than ever before.  

NYU students came out and wanted segregated dorms.  Is that progress?

You cant kill racism.  Keep progessing instead of acting like all of a sudden there is a major problem.  

You didnt care about this 20 years ago when it was more of a problem I am sure.  But the media has you.

[Utilit99 4,099]

48 minutes ago, dogcows said:

You’re quite the expert on systemic racism now, eh? BTW, it’s systemic, not systematic. They mean different things. 

Not only are you racist, you are a really uninformed one.

[Gladiators 1,904]

Never thought there would be someone on this bored more racist than Peenie, but I think dogcows takes that crown.

[jerryskids 5,206]

2 hours ago, dogcows said:

You’re quite the expert on systemic racism now, eh? BTW, it’s systemic, not systematic. They mean different things. 

Good point.  Here is a discussion on the difference:

https://www.dictionary.com/e/systematic-vs-systemic/

Systematic is synonymous with methodical.  It’s tangible.  You can point to specific things to address.

Systemic is subjective.  Fungible.  Undefinable.  It’s the WHOLE SYSTEM man#@!~!!~@#!  At the end they even give examples.  Things like “blacks have twice the infant mortality rate.”  Or “higher arrest rate.”  Is that because they are black?  Or maybe... poor?  High percentage of fatherless homes?  Cultural disrespect for education?  It’s the entire system.  

Some people, and by some I mean people like you, only want to talk about part of the system though.  The part that is whitey’s fault.  Never what people can do to clean up their own house.

[dogcows 1,029]

5 hours ago, jerryskids said:

Good point.  Here is a discussion on the difference:

https://www.dictionary.com/e/systematic-vs-systemic/

Systematic is synonymous with methodical.  It’s tangible.  You can point to specific things to address.

Systemic is subjective.  Fungible.  Undefinable.  It’s the WHOLE SYSTEM man#@!~!!~@#!  At the end they even give examples.  Things like “blacks have twice the infant mortality rate.”  Or “higher arrest rate.”  Is that because they are black?  Or maybe... poor?  High percentage of fatherless homes?  Cultural disrespect for education?  It’s the entire system.  

Some people, and by some I mean people like you, only want to talk about part of the system though.  The part that is whitey’s fault.  Never what people can do to clean up their own house.

I’m happy to talk about the whole system. The issue with systemic problems is, as you said, they are not easy to solve, especially when you’re talking about huge systems like federal housing, policing, education, etc. In the 1960s and earlier, such systems were explicitly racist. When the laws changed, the systems didn’t change overnight.

Mass incarceration of black men increased the percentage of homes without a father. Schools with terrible facilities don’t engender “respect for education“ from students. Having an entire race of people who were born into poverty up until at least the 1960s because of specifically racist policies doesn’t go away overnight, or even in 10 or 20 years. I grew up in, let’s say, a below-average income area, and if I look up people from there today, most didn’t climb that far up the economic ladder in one generation. Now put an entire race of people into that same category. It’s not a mystery.

Do ‘cultural’ factors play a role as well? Yes, to a lesser extent. Both sides of the issue need to be owned up to and addressed.

Good discussion… btw - black fatherlessness is higher than among white people, but it is often exaggerated… the link below has some opinion stuff in it, but it shows the actual numbers are not as bad as often is claimed.

https://www.newsweek.com/absent-black-fathers-myth-racism-1509085

 

[JustinCharge 2,397]

Its like sho went nuts on this forum and drive himself off, then rusty blew up and embarassed himself, then rusty got tired of destroying himself on this forum and now dogcows steps into the box and has made it his mission to show everyone how much of a racist jerk he is LOL.  What IS it with these types?

[JustinCharge 2,397]

3 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Good discussion… btw -

Oooooh.  Another disgusting trait of the left.  Being condescending. "good talk".  Patting people on the head like they are half-wits.

[dogcows 1,029]

10 minutes ago, JustinCharge said:

Oooooh.  Another disgusting trait of the left.  Being condescending. "good talk".  Patting people on the head like they are half-wits.

I was talking to somebody else who regularly engages in discussions that I’ve enjoyed even though we each probably think the other is wrong about most things.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,646]

Black men have to do a better job of being fathers. Many are absentee fathers. Do you know why NFL players put either Sr. Or Jr. On their jersey’s? Sr. Is to signify their father wasn’t around and the bloodline starts with the player. Jr. means their father was around and they are proud of his name. I guess they do they be issue black fathers being absent is a myth. Some Newsweek dweeb said so. 

[jerryskids 5,206]

2 hours ago, dogcows said:

I’m happy to talk about the whole system. The issue with systemic problems is, as you said, they are not easy to solve, especially when you’re talking about huge systems like federal housing, policing, education, etc. In the 1960s and earlier, such systems were explicitly racist. When the laws changed, the systems didn’t change overnight.

Mass incarceration of black men increased the percentage of homes without a father. Schools with terrible facilities don’t engender “respect for education“ from students. Having an entire race of people who were born into poverty up until at least the 1960s because of specifically racist policies doesn’t go away overnight, or even in 10 or 20 years. I grew up in, let’s say, a below-average income area, and if I look up people from there today, most didn’t climb that far up the economic ladder in one generation. Now put an entire race of people into that same category. It’s not a mystery.

Do ‘cultural’ factors play a role as well? Yes, to a lesser extent. Both sides of the issue need to be owned up to and addressed.

Good discussion… btw - black fatherlessness is higher than among white people, but it is often exaggerated… the link below has some opinion stuff in it, but it shows the actual numbers are not as bad as often is claimed.

https://www.newsweek.com/absent-black-fathers-myth-racism-1509085

 

Where do you get the conclusion that cultural factors are a “lesser” role?  I presume that is your opinion.

And that link made my eyes bleed.  Too many things to comment on, but I’ll try a few.  Here is a gem of a paragraph:

Quote

Broken families are an inevitable consequence of the exact kinds of problems protesters are currently standing up against. Innocent black men who are killed by police obviously won't be there for their families. If you care about black children being fatherless, you should be supporting the protesters. George Floyd, after all, is being remembered as a good father and family man.

Oy.  Are those couple of dozen innocent black men going to make a statistical difference?  I’m sure George Floyd is remembered as a paragon of family virtues, when he wasn’t running drugs, passing counterfeit bills, or holding up pregnant women at gunpoint.

Or this quote:

Quote

 "Black fathers (70 percent) were most likely to have bathed, dressed, diapered, or helped their children use the toilet every day compared with white (60 percent) and Hispanic fathers (45 percent)," the CDC study found.

Sounds good, unless you actually click into the CDC link, where you find that this statement was regarding coresidential fathers.  Of which blacks are significantly less, as stated earlier in the article.

And of course there is the “blacks can’t be good fathers when they are in prison#@!@“ position.  We’ll get nowhere on that one so I’ll just leave it there.

[dogcows 1,029]

17 hours ago, jerryskids said:

Where do you get the conclusion that cultural factors are a “lesser” role?  I presume that is your opinion.

This article has links to a back-and-forth with Ta-Nehisi Coates and Jonathan Chait… about how much “culture” plays a role in poverty among black people.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-source-of-black-poverty-isnt-black-culture-its-american-culture/359937/

Not dissimilar to our discussion.

[Utilit99 4,099]

2 hours ago, dogcows said:

This article has links to a back-and-forth with Ta-Nehisi Coates and Jonathan Chait… about how much “culture” plays a role in poverty among black people.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-source-of-black-poverty-isnt-black-culture-its-american-culture/359937/

Not dissimilar to our discussion.

[Cdub100 3,380]

2 hours ago, dogcows said:

This article has links to a back-and-forth with Ta-Nehisi Coates and Jonathan Chait… about how much “culture” plays a role in poverty among black people.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-source-of-black-poverty-isnt-black-culture-its-american-culture/359937/

Not dissimilar to our discussion.

American culture in literally every land that black people occupy. Wakanda withstanding of course.

[jerryskids 5,206]

4 hours ago, dogcows said:

This article has links to a back-and-forth with Ta-Nehisi Coates and Jonathan Chait… about how much “culture” plays a role in poverty among black people.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-source-of-black-poverty-isnt-black-culture-its-american-culture/359937/

Not dissimilar to our discussion.

Interesting reads, but it is a series of opinion arguments with sprinkles of studies and a clearly biased summary from the Atlantic author.  That being said, in the first Coates article after he feels dissed by a cabbie passing him and his son by, says:

Quote

I think, 15 years ago, with nothing to lose, I would have made a different decision, if only because the culture of my young years made a virtue of meeting disrespect with aggression. This culture was not wrong—the price of ignoring disrespect, in the old town, was more disrespect. The culture was a collection of the best practices for making our socially engineered inner cities habitable. I now live in a different environment. I now have different practices.

He as much as says he was violent when in that culture, and now that he is away from it, he makes better choices.

We’ll never be able to put a number on it, but if you believe that black culture has zero effect, we have nothing to discuss.  If you believe it is non-zero, then I would argue that that is one thing that the black community has complete control over, and I would respectfully suggest that they get their house in order in that regard.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,646]

Blacks are notorious for having a quick twitch to violence. 

[dogcows 1,029]

13 hours ago, jerryskids said:

Interesting reads, but it is a series of opinion arguments with sprinkles of studies and a clearly biased summary from the Atlantic author.  That being said, in the first Coates article after he feels dissed by a cabbie passing him and his son by, says:

He as much as says he was violent when in that culture, and now that he is away from it, he makes better choices.

We’ll never be able to put a number on it, but if you believe that black culture has zero effect, we have nothing to discuss.  If you believe it is non-zero, then I would argue that that is one thing that the black community has complete control over, and I would respectfully suggest that they get their house in order in that regard.

I believe it has an effect, but even if you say it’s 50% of the problem (I think it is less), you cannot expect the black community to fix the entire problem themselves. Integrating schools would be a great step in two ways - giving black kids access to better schools, and integrating them with different cultures. Win-win.

[dogcows 1,029]

12 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Blacks are notorious for having a quick twitch to violence. 

Save it for your turn at the weekly KKK meeting...

[TimmySmith 2,782]

The most racist white people ever were those who compartmentalized blacks into inner city ghettos, didn't feed them, didn't educate them, fed them drugs, sent them to prison and pitted them against each other.  I present you the northern white liberal.  dogcows appears to be one.

[dogcows 1,029]

4 minutes ago, TimmySmith said:

The most racist white people ever were those who compartmentalized blacks into inner city ghettos, didn't feed them, didn't educate them, fed them drugs, sent them to prison and pitted them against each other.  I present you the northern white liberal.  dogcows appears to be one.

Somebody failed history...

[TimmySmith 2,782]

2 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Somebody failed history...

Somebody failed the present. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

39 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Somebody failed history...

We already know that history tells us that the Democrats were pro-slavery and started the KKK.  What more is there to know about it?

[TimmySmith 2,782]

1 minute ago, TBayXXXVII said:

We already know that history tells us that the Democrats were pro-slavery and started the KKK.  What more is there to know about it?

So true.  And why are we talking about 160 years ago, when lib dems in NY, Chicago, Detroit, and Philly have thrown millions of blacks in jail and destroyed millions of black families in just the past 20 years.   

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

Just now, TimmySmith said:

So true.  And why are we talking about 160 years ago, when lib dems in NY, Chicago, Detroit, and Philly have thrown millions of blacks in jail and destroyed millions of black families in just the past 20 years.   

Heck, how many did Biden throw in jail with the Crime Bill he wrote... that Clinton signed into law?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,646]

4 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Heck, how many did Biden throw in jail with the Crime Bill he wrote... that Clinton signed into law?

That bill was necessary and a tremendous success. 

[jerryskids 5,206]

2 hours ago, dogcows said:

I believe it has an effect, but even if you say it’s 50% of the problem (I think it is less), you cannot expect the black community to fix the entire problem themselves. Integrating schools would be a great step in two ways - giving black kids access to better schools, and integrating them with different cultures. Win-win.

What do you mean by “integrating schools”?  Place unqualified minorities into elite universities?  If so we’ve gotten nowhere in this discussion.  

[KSB2424 3,083]

 

[Utilit99 4,099]

29 minutes ago, KSB2424 said:

 

One home near where I live has signs all over the yard still. Biden/Harris, Black Lives Matter, Trump is a criminal, some rainbow sign, No Human is Illegal, and a few more.

I kind of expected to see rusty out in the yard with 45 cats around him but there's no way he could afford the type of home this is.

[dogcows 1,029]

4 hours ago, jerryskids said:

What do you mean by “integrating schools”?  Place unqualified minorities into elite universities?  If so we’ve gotten nowhere in this discussion.  

I mean we have lots of schools in America that are segregated by race.

I didn’t say unqualified. I said talented students from sub-par schools who are therefore underprepared. If a school could identify those students, believe me, they would have a better performing student body. Lots of kids that went to the best schools because mommy and daddy laid out the money for it, or because mommy and daddy live in a rich neighborhood with the best public schools in the state… end up getting into the top schools and underperforming because they are more “prepared” than they are smart. Meanwhile, you have some truly talented kids who never get a chance. Since most of the kids in the latter category are minorities, Yale and other schools choose to let in minorities with lower scores than white students. This isn’t a perfect system.

If you have a terrible school in a poor neighborhood, you could just shut it down, split up the group, and bus the students to a handful of nearby high-performing school districts. You give the students better facilities while simultaneously exposing them to a different culture than they see in their impoverished neighborhood.

There are a lot of other solutions proposed too, including this, but it just seems like it never gets far. I mean, NYC - the supposed liberal Mecca… has some of the most segregated schools in the nation. I don’t know if it will be fixed anytime soon, but until it is, I think colleges will continue their policy in hopes of finding some “diamonds in the rough” so to speak.

[jerryskids 5,206]

44 minutes ago, dogcows said:

I mean we have lots of schools in America that are segregated by race.

I didn’t say unqualified. I said talented students from sub-par schools who are therefore underprepared. If a school could identify those students, believe me, they would have a better performing student body. Lots of kids that went to the best schools because mommy and daddy laid out the money for it, or because mommy and daddy live in a rich neighborhood with the best public schools in the state… end up getting into the top schools and underperforming because they are more “prepared” than they are smart. Meanwhile, you have some truly talented kids who never get a chance. Since most of the kids in the latter category are minorities, Yale and other schools choose to let in minorities with lower scores than white students. This isn’t a perfect system.

If you have a terrible school in a poor neighborhood, you could just shut it down, split up the group, and bus the students to a handful of nearby high-performing school districts. You give the students better facilities while simultaneously exposing them to a different culture than they see in their impoverished neighborhood.

There are a lot of other solutions proposed too, including this, but it just seems like it never gets far. I mean, NYC - the supposed liberal Mecca… has some of the most segregated schools in the nation. I don’t know if it will be fixed anytime soon, but until it is, I think colleges will continue their policy in hopes of finding some “diamonds in the rough” so to speak.

You didn't say unqualified, I did.  And I defined it.  "Qualified" has a denotative meaning, and these kids are not qualified.

How do you identify these talented kids, in the absence of any objective grades, scores, or curriculum? Many schools don't require interviews either.  An essay on an application?

I agree philosophically with the rich brat idea, although you seem to think all children of rich parents are less deserving.  Pro tip: they are still getting into the Ivies, particularly the legacies.  It's the qualified middle class kids getting screwed 

[dogcows 1,029]

13 hours ago, jerryskids said:

You didn't say unqualified, I did.  And I defined it.  "Qualified" has a denotative meaning, and these kids are not qualified.

How do you identify these talented kids, in the absence of any objective grades, scores, or curriculum? Many schools don't require interviews either.  An essay on an application?

I agree philosophically with the rich brat idea, although you seem to think all children of rich parents are less deserving.  Pro tip: they are still getting into the Ivies, particularly the legacies.  It's the qualified middle class kids getting screwed 

Considering that almost all kids getting in via the “legacy” positions are from a legacy that started before black people were even allowed into the school, those are slots de facto for white kids. So let’s compromise: remove all legacy slots and replace them with minority slots. You’ve now improved the academics of the school, and haven’t decreased the slots for the middle class white kids either... in fact if you do this, you could remove the other slots saved for minority applicants from sub-par schools... and have more “generic” slots open.

The school actually gets to decide who is or isn’t qualified. BTW. It’s not a purely objective matter. If they think somebody demonstrates the talent even though they didn’t get 1600 SATs and straight A’s, they can take them.

[jerryskids 5,206]

2 hours ago, dogcows said:

Considering that almost all kids getting in via the “legacy” positions are from a legacy that started before black people were even allowed into the school, those are slots de facto for white kids. So let’s compromise: remove all legacy slots and replace them with minority slots. You’ve now improved the academics of the school, and haven’t decreased the slots for the middle class white kids either... in fact if you do this, you could remove the other slots saved for minority applicants from sub-par schools... and have more “generic” slots open.

The school actually gets to decide who is or isn’t qualified. BTW. It’s not a purely objective matter. If they think somebody demonstrates the talent even though they didn’t get 1600 SATs and straight A’s, they can take them.

You misunderstand me; I'm not justifying legacies.  I'm telling you that these schools like to put on a woke front to make people like you happy, but behind the scenes they sure as hell aren't going to reject a kid of a donor, if they are at all qualified.  Unofficially of course, as they would never have such a formal policy.  It's the middle class white kids that get screwed.

Also you keep avoiding my question and changing words, thinking a semantics change somehow answers the question.  So I'll ask again:  how does somebody "demonstrate the talent" even though they didn't score well on tests or grades?  And don't forget, how have they shown that they can succeed in a rigorous academic setting. 

[dogcows 1,029]

56 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

You misunderstand me; I'm not justifying legacies.  I'm telling you that these schools like to put on a woke front to make people like you happy, but behind the scenes they sure as hell aren't going to reject a kid of a donor, if they are at all qualified.  Unofficially of course, as they would never have such a formal policy.  It's the middle class white kids that get screwed.

Also you keep avoiding my question and changing words, thinking a semantics change somehow answers the question.  So I'll ask again:  how does somebody "demonstrate the talent" even though they didn't score well on tests or grades?  And don't forget, how have they shown that they can succeed in a rigorous academic setting. 

That's the problem though, isn’t it? Some kids aren’t even given the opportunity to try their hand at a rigorous academic setting. These kids are being punished for growing up in a crappy neighborhood and going to a crappy school. If we can’t solve that, then I think colleges are going to have to keep trying to find qualified students among poorer communities with subpar schools.

[Fireballer 2,382]

6 minutes ago, dogcows said:

That's the problem though, isn’t it? Some kids aren’t even given the opportunity to try their hand at a rigorous academic setting. These kids are being punished for growing up in a crappy neighborhood and going to a crappy school. If we can’t solve that, then I think colleges are going to have to keep trying to find qualified students among poorer communities with subpar schools.

What would a school be like for you to define it as "crappy"?

[dogcows 1,029]

4 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

What would a school be like for you to define it as "crappy"?

Check out some of these schools. Why don’t they just close such schools and split the students up among higher-performing schools in the area? When your school has only 10% proficiency in math and reading level, do you think they offer AP Physics? If we can’t fix this problem, then I have no problem with colleges trying to find talented students from such schools who would never have a chance.

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/blog/top-100-worst-schools

[jerryskids 5,206]

1 hour ago, dogcows said:

That's the problem though, isn’t it? Some kids aren’t even given the opportunity to try their hand at a rigorous academic setting. These kids are being punished for growing up in a crappy neighborhood and going to a crappy school. If we can’t solve that, then I think colleges are going to have to keep trying to find qualified students among poorer communities with subpar schools.

I’ve already addressed that as well, suggesting that this generation go to lower tier schools and build up.  But you haven’t responded to that, like you’ve pretty much not responded to any of my points, instead just repeating your “K-12 sucks so let’s just give them a shot” mantra.  I was hoping to have an intelligent debate on this, apparently not.  Carry on.   

[dogcows 1,029]

8 hours ago, jerryskids said:

I’ve already addressed that as well, suggesting that this generation go to lower tier schools and build up.  But you haven’t responded to that, like you’ve pretty much not responded to any of my points, instead just repeating your “K-12 sucks so let’s just give them a shot” mantra.  I was hoping to have an intelligent debate on this, apparently not.  Carry on.   

It is my opinion that you are confusing “qualified” with “prepared.” A top 10 draft pick for MLB is almost undoubtedly qualified for the majors…. But they are not prepared for the big leagues yet; they need some time in the minors.

The top schools are looking for the qualified students. If they only get the prepared students, they might be missing out on top talent. I believe some schools have programs to help talented, yet under-prepared students catch up and some tutoring during the freshman year to also help.

I honestly don’t see a problem if they want to do that. It’s their school and the courts have consistently ruled that race can be one of many factors in admissions.