Failure of the public education system

[Hawkeye21 1,853]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

Ask me if you can. Until then, no.  My kids, my rules. Why is this so hard for you to grasp? 

I grasp your opinion just fine.  I'm just trying to help bring some understanding as to why teachers want to.  You don't have to acknowledge it.

[Fireballer 2,381]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

  I'm just trying to help bring some understanding as to why teachers want to.  

And there's the problem... teachers acting on what they "want" to do and not what they should do.

[Hawkeye21 1,853]

1 minute ago, Fireballer said:

And there's the problem... teachers acting on what they "want" to do and not what they should do.

Not everyone shares the same opinion on that.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,636]

3 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I grasp your opinion just fine.  I'm just trying to help bring some understanding as to why teachers want to.  You don't have to acknowledge it.

Teachers should talk to their Muslim students about gay sex and transitioning. That stuff is against their religion. Teachers need not respect that I guess. 

[Hawkeye21 1,853]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

Teachers should talk to their Muslim students about gay sex and transitioning. That stuff is against their religion. Teachers need not respect that I guess. 

WTF are you talking about now?  Why do you always find a way to twist a discussion into something so stupid?

[Fireballer 2,381]

6 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Not everyone shares the same opinion on that.

You're right and not everyone who is a teacher, should be a teacher.

[Hawkeye21 1,853]

Just now, Fireballer said:

You're right and not everyone who is a teacher, should be a teacher.

Absolutely.  No argument there.

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

37 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

 

In a scenario where a students goes to a teacher after class and says they would like to talk to them about sex, what do you want that teacher to do?  What if the student says they can't talk to a family member about it?  I'm guessing you're going to say they should send them to the counselor, which I agree with.  Now, what if the student doesn't feel comfortable with the counselor either but trusts their teacher instead?  Students spend more time with their teachers and they can form more trust with them.

I know that not every situation would be like this.  I'm also not saying a teacher should go out of their way to talk to students about sex, especially if a student didn't ask too.  That would be creepy.

You are right- and this is what so many people get wrong and/or don't understand. If a teacher is actively going to students and saying "Hey, let's talk about sex and gender" outside of a health class then yes that is wrong and shouldn't happen.

For many students though- they build a rapport with teachers for whatever reason. It isn't some sinister "creepy" thing like people want to assign it to. It is just students spend a lot of time with teachers discussing a litany of topics and many students can't bridge the idea of "friendly but not friends." (TBF- some teachers obviously don't bridge that gap well either). And there are definitely students who might be wrestling with their sexuality and they say things to a teacher knowing that the teacher has to report it to a counselor and it has to go through a chain of command that eventually leads to parents being notified. For some students that meeting is a way to tell their parents and having a support system in place as opposed to just trying to tell their parents for any one reason.

Also, there is a way to let students talk about their gender and sex without the teacher talking about it. It's happened a few times for me in the classroom where students have talked at me but I haven't really said anything back to them other than "Uh huh" or "I understand." And always, always, I encourage them to discuss it with their parents and develop a support system at home. In my role as counselor at the school it is different in how it progresses. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,636]

31 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

WTF are you talking about now?  Why do you always find a way to twist a discussion into something so stupid?

So peoples religion shouldn’t be respected? Some religions ban homosexuality.  Don’t get mad at me, I didn’t make that rule. So how should a teacher handle that? 

[Hawkeye21 1,853]

2 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

So peoples religion shouldn’t be respected? Some religions ban homosexuality.  Don’t get mad at me, I didn’t make that rule. So how should a teacher handle that? 

If a student feels the need to go to a teacher for advice then I have no issues with it.  The student obviously trusts that teacher for advice.

You have a tendency to derail discussions with nonsense.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,636]

7 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

If a student feels the need to go to a teacher for advice then I have no issues with it.  The student obviously trusts that teacher for advice.

You have a tendency to derail discussions with nonsense.

Peoples faith is nonsense now, and you think a teacher should just disregard it? 

[Gladiators 1,904]

I completely disagree with a teacher talking to students about sex.  It's the same scenario for me as a coach.  My players trust me and look up to me much like a teacher.  I'm not talking to them about sex.  It's not my place.

[Hawkeye21 1,853]

4 minutes ago, Gladiators said:

I completely disagree with a teacher talking to students about sex.  It's the same scenario for me as a coach.  My players trust me and look up to me much like a teacher.  I'm not talking to them about sex.  It's not my place.

You don't have to talk to them about sex or anything personal if you don't want to.  I would understand if you did though if a player said you were the only one they knew they could talk to though.

[Hawkeye21 1,853]

5 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Peoples faith is nonsense now, and you think a teacher should just disregard it? 

This isn't about religion, it's about a student going to a teacher with questions.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,636]

6 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

This isn't about religion, it's about a student going to a teacher with questions.

And what if that students religion forbids the subject? What do you do then? 

[Gladiators 1,904]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

You don't have to talk to them about sex or anything personal if you don't want to.  I would understand if you did though if a player said you were the only one they knew they could talk to though.

Coaches aren't supposed to ever be alone with a player.  It should be the same for teachers IMO.  I don't care if a kid trusts me and wants to talk to me.  Don't take that as me not caring, as I have coached the same group of kids for about 5 years now and they do feel like family to me.  However, talking about sex is not ok.  I also wouldn't talk politics or religion with them.  

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

3 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

And what if that students religion forbids the subject? What do you do then? 

You don't talk about it.....why is this so hard to understand?

[Hawkeye21 1,853]

4 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

And what if that students religion forbids the subject? What do you do then? 

That's up to the student, not the teacher.

[Hawkeye21 1,853]

4 minutes ago, Gladiators said:

Coaches aren't supposed to ever be alone with a player.  It should be the same for teachers IMO.  I don't care if a kid trusts me and wants to talk to me.  Don't take that as me not caring, as I have coached the same group of kids for about 5 years now and they do feel like family to me.  However, talking about sex is not ok.  I also wouldn't talk politics or religion with them.  

I don't blame you.  I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it either.  I understand why some teachers do it though.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,636]

2 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

You don't talk about it.....why is this so hard to understand?

Oh, so only the religious people’s kids are excluded from teachers talking to them about sex? 

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

Oh, so only the religious people’s kids are excluded from teachers talking to them about sex? 

Do you get off to being intentionally obtuse?

And either way- if the student says stuff to me about and I never say anything---so be it. I can't stop someone from thinking out loud while I'm around. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,636]

5 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

That's up to the student, not the teacher.

A third grader? Really? 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,636]

Just now, Sean Mooney said:

Do you get off to being intentionally obtuse?

And either way- if the student says stuff to me about and I never say anything---so be it. I can't stop someone from thinking out loud while I'm around. 

That’s reasonable. I wouldn’t hold you accountable in that type of situation. 

[Hawkeye21 1,853]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

A third grader? Really? 

If it's a third grader then probably not.

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

2 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

A third grader? Really? 

I highly doubt.....really highly doubt that a 1st grade teacher or 3rd grade teacher is having really in depth discussions about sex and gender with their students. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,636]

3 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

I highly doubt.....really highly doubt that a 1st grade teacher or 3rd grade teacher is having really in depth discussions about sex and gender with their students. 

Well, the law in Florida was about k-3 and the union is fighting against it. Teachers, and yes it’s a small minority of them, are also speaking out against it. I think most teachers silently object to this nonsense.  But they have to stop letting the few dictate to the many. You guys need new leadership. 

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

33 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Well, the law in Florida was about k-3 and the union is fighting against it. Teachers, and yes it’s a small minority of them, are also speaking out against it. I think most teachers silently object to this nonsense.  But they have to stop letting the few dictate to the many. You guys need new leadership. 

The reason teachers are speaking out about it is more because the thinking it will eventually try to apply for 4-12th grade. They are trying to get ahead of it.

And sex or gender discussion- either with a teacher, or counselor, or whatever- with a 17 or 18 year old is vastly different than with a 7 or 8 year old. 

[Cloaca du jour 2,064]

2 hours ago, Fireballer said:

And there's the problem... teachers acting on what they "want" to do and not what they should do.

Should do what??  All they want to do is teach.  Not deal with 50k behavior problems.

[Utilit99 4,099]

I think we are in good shape now to say the majority of public schools out there are failures because of the teachers and those who direct them. 

There are also shlt parents out there so that doesn't play into anything other than the kids are on their own in life and that's not a good thing for anyone.  

Congratulations everyone. Case closed. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,636]

37 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

The reason teachers are speaking out about it is more because the thinking it will eventually try to apply for 4-12th grade. They are trying to get ahead of it.

And sex or gender discussion- either with a teacher, or counselor, or whatever- with a 17 or 18 year old is vastly different than with a 7 or 8 year old. 

So fears of what may happen is justification for what is happening? 

[MDC 5,890]

Whatever happened to that freak mom who issued 100 FOIA requests in a month to try to find CRT in a he school’s curriculum? I don’t blame teachers for fighting this. Who wants to spend all day dealing with obsessive weirdos who have a political axe to grind?

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

24 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

So fears of what may happen is justification for what is happening? 

I would guess it is more the line of- "Teachers aren't discussing this with K-3 so why is it being passed as a law" with the assumption being that the end goal is to pass it from 4-12...

I'm not sure what you mean by "what is happening". The actual law passing or the teachers speaking out against the law?

[Utilit99 4,099]

moonies life is one long Babylonbee article.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

I don't have a problem with a student going to a teacher and asking for advice outside of the classroom.  If the school wants to hire a therapist who IS qualified to discuss these matters, in which the parent is involved, then I'm ok with that.  What I do have a problem with is teachers and schools discussing issues - that they aren't qualified to discuss - in the classroom.  Something else I have a problem with, as I said, I'm ok with a student asking for advice... but I'm against a teacher taking advantage of that opportunity to push their "agenda" onto the kid.

Something that gets overlooked for some reason or another is that teachers, like other professionals, are "specialists" in a field of study... be it math, grammar, history, science, etc... they aren't worldly experts or therapists.

[Fireballer 2,381]

1 hour ago, Cloaca du jour said:

Should do what??  All they want to do is teach.  Not deal with 50k behavior problems.

I was speaking specifically about teachers doing what they want to do vs what they should do when it comes to talking about gender and sexuality with kids

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

10 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

I don't have a problem with a student going to a teacher and asking for advice outside of the classroom.  If the school wants to hire a therapist who IS qualified to discuss these matters, in which the parent is involved, then I'm ok with that.  What I do have a problem with is teachers and schools discussing issues - that they aren't qualified to discuss - in the classroom.  Something else I have a problem with, as I said, I'm ok with a student asking for advice... but I'm against a teacher taking advantage of that opportunity to push their "agenda" onto the kid.

Something that gets overlooked for some reason or another is that teachers, like other professionals, are "specialists" in a field of study... be it math, grammar, history, science, etc... they aren't worldly experts or therapists.

Schools have therapists. What you run into sometimes is kids not wanting to go there because of the stigma it carries but then they also can't go see a therapist while at home. Listening skills, basic human empathy, and being a decent human being are not fundamentally things you need to be "qualified" for, but they are important components to being a teacher. 

I do agree though- teachers shouldn't look to force an agenda on a kid. That is wrong.

And lastly- I've said this before- as parents have looked for the role of teachers to increase in society the need for a "therapist" is more important with kids. 

[Fireballer 2,381]

It's been mentioned countless times here and I still don't get the "I'm not comfortable telling my parents" thing. How did this get so much traction?  What vetting is done to actually decide to not immediately include parents/guardians in on things that students bring to teachers? This excludes actual violence, and at that point it's an LE matter.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

12 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

Schools have therapists. What you run into sometimes is kids not wanting to go there because of the stigma it carries but then they also can't go see a therapist while at home. Listening skills, basic human empathy, and being a decent human being are not fundamentally things you need to be "qualified" for, but they are important components to being a teacher. 

I do agree though- teachers shouldn't look to force an agenda on a kid. That is wrong.

And lastly- I've said this before- as parents have looked for the role of teachers to increase in society the need for a "therapist" is more important with kids. 

By qualified, I'm talking about matters of all fields such as theology, gender, sex, and alike.  They can listen and say that they understand their issues and how they feel to give the kid a sense that someone is at least listening and not judging.  But then, they need tell the kids how to approach their parents and how to address these issues with them... if the student chooses not to talk to a therapist and not give them advise on to proceed in their life.

 

With respect to your last sentence, if that's the case, since Millennial's are the ones who would have kids in the K-8 grades, it's not a surprise to see an escalation.  I'm also willing to bet it's liberals as the dominating demographic.  Conservatives have usually had the mindset of telling the teacher it's ok to put a foot up their kids azz if they act up, but don't tell my kids how to live their life while Liberals have usually been of the mindset of 'don't you dare lay a finger on my little boy', but you have free range to talk to them about anything.

[Hawkeye21 1,853]

4 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

It's been mentioned countless times here and I still don't get the "I'm not comfortable telling my parents" thing. How did this get so much traction?  What vetting is done to actually decide to not include parents/guardians in on things that students bring to teachers? This excludes actual violence, and at that point it's an LE matter.

Not all parents are open to the possibility of their child being being sexually confused.  Not all children feel they can talk to their parents about things like that.

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

5 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

 

 

With respect to your last sentence, if that's the case, since Millennial's are the ones who would have kids in the K-8 grades, it's not a surprise to see an escalation.  I'm also willing to bet it's liberals as the dominating demographic.  Conservatives have usually had the mindset of telling the teacher it's ok to put a foot up their kids azz if they act up, but don't tell my kids how to live their life while Liberals have usually been of the mindset of 'don't you dare lay a finger on my little boy', but you have free range to talk to them about anything.

I will just say that is not necessarily my experience anymore. With parents I would imagine are more conservative it tends to be more of an antagonistic relationship towards teachers and a general feeling of "You don't like my kid, why are you not passing them."