OK let’s talk about the border

[The Real timschochet 7,443]

With the impending Supreme Court decision, this issue is coming to a head. And we need to seriously think about what to do. 

Anyone who read my posts at FBG knows I am a liberal and have been VERY liberal on this issue. I’ve wanted fairly open immigration, much more refugees taken in, a path to citizenship for those already here without papers, etc. I’ve implied, simplistically, that those who disagreed with me were racist- the truth is that some were, most were not. 

But it’s time to face facts. My solutions are unpopular and have no chance of being enacted. And even if they were it wouldn’t have much of an effect on the current crisis. And it is a crisis. There are too many people coming over the border. There are too many refugee applicants. It’s an economic crisis to every city that has to deal with any part of it. And the presence of fentanyl has changed the ballgame entirely and made everything much worse. 
 

So I don’t have solutions to this. The current Republican solution, as practiced by the Trump administration is too cruel for me. I can’t accept it. I regard rounding up people, and dividing families, as inhumane and un-American. I will never accept that. On the other hand, the Democratic solution of doing nothing and pretending that everything is under control is unacceptable as well. And of course both sides seem far more intent on using this issue as a political cudgel to beat their opponents than actually trying to come up with some reasonable solutions. I was all for the Thom Tillis proposal but that died a quick death as it was opposed by the radicals from the right and left. So now I have no idea what to do. Does anybody hear? I’m going to put away all of my preconceived notions and prejudices and try to listen with an open mind. Come up with something new. Please. 

[iam90sbaby 2,727]

Merit based immigration with a strict cap on the amount we let in per year. 100k-250k. No immigrants from Islamic countries. Must have a bachelors degree and be ready to contribute to society day one. We don't border any war torn countries so that is someone else's problem as far as I'm concerned. It's actually an easy solution, retards make it complicated.

[BuckSwope 654]

Good luck with this around here,Tim! 

I've had some back and forth, but IMO it's not worth the effort on people who truly believe one side wants to fix it and the other doesn't.  

My stance is that neither truly want to fix it because, well profits for multiple huge industries with powerful lobbies.   Instead, the parties just play the games and basically just increase and decrease the flow across the border without actually addressing the infrastructure and ability to process claims quickly and keep it running how we intended.  We've let that fester for decades and we are finally feeling the weight of that.  

 

 

[Cloaca du jour 2,157]

The omnibus has tons of $$$ for border protection.  It is just for other country's borders..like ukraine.

Im curious to see your position on guns....we send thousands of weapons and guns to Ukraine and we even traded a gun/weapon dealer for a pothead.  So explain to me why liberals are so anti gun?

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

It’s all a scam. Democrats hide behind being humanitarian but what they really want is future voters and to please their corporate/ Wall Street/ donors and the banks . Uniparty republicans also want to please their corporate/ Wall Street donors so they let them in but they don’t want them to get citizenship because they will vote democrat.  So anyone spouting humanitarian nonsense is a sucker. 

[The Real timschochet 7,443]

3 minutes ago, Cloaca du jour said:

The omnibus has tons of $$$ for border protection.  It is just for other country's borders..like ukraine.

Im curious to see your position on guns....we send thousands of weapons and guns to Ukraine and we even traded a gun/weapon dealer for a pothead.  So explain to me why liberals are so anti gun?

To your points: 

1. I know some conservatives have tried to make a connection between helping Ukraine and dealing with the border. It reminds me, in a way, of radical leftists who opposed the space program in the 1960s who thought that the money should go to helping the inner cities instead. I don’t think we should look at government spending as an “either or” situation. If it makes sense to spend money on something do it; otherwise don’t. Each item should be looked at separately. 
 

2. I don’t think most liberals are “anti-gun”. I think they want to see what they regard as reasonable restrictions, like universal background checks, a ban on certain weapons they regard as too dangerous, and perhaps registration as a means to help law enforcement. But that’s about it. There is a movement within the radical left that would love to remove ALL firearms, but most liberals are opposed and anyhow know it’s never going to happen. 

[The Real timschochet 7,443]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

It’s all a scam. Democrats hide behind being humanitarian but what they really want is future voters and to please their corporate/ Wall Street/ donors and the banks . Uniparty republicans also want to please their corporate/ Wall Street donors so they let them in but they don’t want them to get citizenship because they will vote democrat.  So anyone spouting humanitarian nonsense is a sucker. 

I agree with some of this cynicism. I am, however, a sucker. 

[The Real timschochet 7,443]

12 minutes ago, iam90sbaby said:

Merit based immigration with a strict cap on the amount we let in per year. 100k-250k. No immigrants from Islamic countries. Must have a bachelors degree and be ready to contribute to society day one. We don't border any war torn countries so that is someone else's problem as far as I'm concerned. It's actually an easy solution, retards make it complicated.

Thanks for the response but I obviously disagree with all of this. I don’t see the need to limit overall immigration to such small numbers. I don’t understand how you would define “merit based” and make it workable; I don’t think you can. I oppose your anti-Muslim prejudice. Your bachelors degree proposal makes no sense: we need workers here, not more people with college degrees. I oppose your isolationism; it’s in our interests to be internationally committed. 
 

Most important of all, none of your proposals would do anything to address the current crisis at the border. 

[wiffleball 4,797]

We had just secured the border, then we never would have had to deal with the Justin Bieber problem.

[The Real timschochet 7,443]

Also as regards the theory that Democrats want more immigrants to come here and vote Democrat: even if that were true in terms of motivation, it’s a pipe dream. Most Latino Americans tend to be socially conservative. Practically the only reason so many of them vote Democrat is because of the immigration issue. If you ever remove that from the equation, a majority of them will vote Republican. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

Don’t forget illegals count in the census. More house seats for democrats. 

[BuckSwope 654]

7 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Also as regards the theory that Democrats want more immigrants to come here and vote Democrat: even if that were true in terms of motivation, it’s a pipe dream. Most Latino Americans tend to be socially conservative. Practically the only reason so many of them vote Democrat is because of the immigration issue. If you ever remove that from the equation, a majority of them will vote Republican. 

Or at the very least, stop talking about them as though they are "other" immigrants as a whole.  A lot of generalizing and framing immigration as the Africans and Asians doing it the 'right' way and the Latinos not welcome. 

[wiffleball 4,797]

It's pretty simple. Remember the Panama canal? So we build a Mexico canal. Connect the gulf to the Pacific.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

Democrats are using a secure border as leverage to get amnesty. WTF? We have to bargain for a secure border on our own country? Who else does that? 

[dogcows 1,065]

58 minutes ago, iam90sbaby said:

No immigrants from Islamic countries.

You don’t believe in freedom of religion?

[Nomad99 813]

Take your country back so you don't have to run from it.

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

I wonder if it's possible to address the problem's root, that being why so many people want to leave their crapass countries. Is there an incentive to get Mexico to keep people from using it as a doormat and to secure the border on their side?

[BuckSwope 654]

2 minutes ago, Pimpadeaux said:

I wonder if it's possible to address the problem's root, that being why so many people want to leave their crapass countries. Is there an incentive to get Mexico to keep people from using it as a doormat and to secure the border on their side?

Or at the very least, make Mexico better so they stop there instead?   

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

Mexico is a narco state, the cartels call the shots. The cartels make a killing on the open border with human trafficking and drugs. They are the ones you would have to give an incentive to, not the government.  Good luck with that. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

1 minute ago, BuckSwope said:

Or at the very least, make Mexico better so they stop there instead?   

Sure , so then Mexicans can lose their jobs and pay the cost of all these new people. Nah. Stupid America will take them. And the powerful here will get more power and money.  

[Fireballer 2,677]

4 minutes ago, Pimpadeaux said:

I wonder if it's possible to address the problem's root

Kamala did that...once.  How did that work out?

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Mexico is a narco state, the cartels call the shots. The cartels make a killing on the open border with human trafficking and drugs. They are the ones you would have to give an incentive to, not the government.  Good luck with that. 

Wouldn't be a bad thing to help Mexico take down the cartels.

[dogcows 1,065]

48 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Thanks for the response but I obviously disagree with all of this. I don’t see the need to limit overall immigration to such small numbers. I don’t understand how you would define “merit based” and make it workable; I don’t think you can. I oppose your anti-Muslim prejudice. Your bachelors degree proposal makes no sense: we need workers here, not more people with college degrees. I oppose your isolationism; it’s in our interests to be internationally committed. 
 

Most important of all, none of your proposals would do anything to address the current crisis at the border. 

We already have plenty of H1B visas, so I agree. I think we need a guest worker program with a pathway to citizenship for those who want it. Some might just want to be guest workers for a period of time, so allow for that.

Part of the reason for inflation is not enough workers. If we allow more workers to immigrate, that would alleviate the labor shortage. We could re-evaluate the numbers allowed year-by-year depending on our needs, with a certain minimum we never go below.

Finally, we have pretty low birth rates. So if we want our country (and its economy) to grow, we need to allow more immigration.

Unless Republicans change their xenophobic tune, this won’t happen. Any Dem in a close race won’t risk trying to fix it either, fearful of the ad campaign the R’s will mount if they do.

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

If you arrived here illegally you should never get citizenship or governmental benefits, not even if they marry a citizen. They can stay as a permanent resident alien so long as they commit no felonies, but no vote and no governmental benefits.  Their children born here are citizens, but the illegal can never be.  If they get deported for committing a felony their minor children go with them though they retain citizenship and can return at the age of majority.

Prioritize immigration for those with capital to invest or degrees in the sciences.  I feel we can absorb one to two million per year with that number advancing over time.  Divide the number to a pro rata number for each continent or region so that racial, ethnic, or religious complaints are minimized.  We do not prioritize any particular race, culture, language or religion.

Allow a generous guest worker visa system.  Guest workers would need a citizen sponsor.  They could stay as long as employed profitably.  So that employers may not abuse the sponsorship allow those present on a guest visa three months to find a new sponsor if they leave their job.  If they find a sponsor, terrific.  If not they leave, but in good standing to return whenever.  Sponsors would need to provide reasonable and minimal healthcare.  Children born to guest workers would not be citizens. Guest workers are taxed like everybody else.  Unfair, perhaps, but that is an economic decision I allow them their freedom to make.

A generous guest or visitor visa, non-working, with some preference for our immediate neighbors and our allies, but open to all except to citizens from countries on a terrorist watch list and the making of that list should not fall to the administrative branch of government alone. Again felons are ousted and all guests must show medical insurance before entering.

Allow a generous number of student visas to students from allied countries only.  Let's not train our enemies.

Allow a safe haven program for war refugees but not political refugees.  If a home country is being shelled, invaded, or shot up from land air or sea by government forces be willing to accept, even embrace, our pro rata population share of refugees.  If they find meaningful employment within 2 years they may begin a five year path to citizenship which includes full employment, paying of taxes, no receipt of government assistance beyond the first year of refugee relocation, and all of their children enrolled in school. If not deport back to country of origin once a truce, armistice, or surrender has been negotiated.

Political refugees should not be allowed.  It will always be subject to massive abuse.  If we believe countries are abusing their citizens we ought to actively work through the U.N to ameliorate the sitiuation but we need to understand we are not the conscience or the police force for the world.  We can lead by example but not by force or by prioritizing the world over our own citizens.  Captains of life boats need to make hard decisions.  When the boat is in danger of being swamped by too many we have to recogize that some, no matter the urgency of their need, simply can not be brought aboard.

Send Maxine Waters, Lauren Bobert, AOC, and MTG to Venezuela for an eqivilent number of Ms. Venezuela beauty pagent contestants.

[Fireballer 2,677]

5 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Unless Republicans change their xenophobic tune, this won’t happen.

So if every current factor with illegal border crossing was the same, whith the exception that they were all white Europeans, Republicans would take a 180* turn?  Tucker Carlson would immediately become an illegal immigrant cheerleader?  

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

6 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Sure , so then Mexicans can lose their jobs and pay the cost of all these new people. Nah. Stupid America will take them. And the powerful here will get more power and money.  

Well, you're more than welcome to get off the grouch couch and offer some solutions. The wall is a waste of money because it can be tunneled under, flown over and cut through. You'd whine like a little b!tch if you paid higher taxes to support the kind of manpower it would take to guard the whole thing. What else you got?

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

14 minutes ago, Pimpadeaux said:

Wouldn't be a bad thing to help Mexico take down the cartels.

Well, Mexico would have to want that. Their latest president is more liberal than you. And it’s been tried already.  No one could be trusted.  

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Well, Mexico would have to want that. Their latest president is more liberal than you. And it’s been tried already.  No one could be trusted.  

I think the real solution is whining about it and blaming Biden on this low-rent message board.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

2 minutes ago, Pimpadeaux said:

Well, you're more than welcome to get off the grouch couch and offer some solutions. The wall is a waste of money because it can be tunneled under, flown over and cut through. You'd whine like a little b!tch if you paid higher taxes to support the kind of manpower it would take to guard the whole thing. What else you got?

I’d like a wall, but what I would actually do is tell Mexico to stop this crap at their southern border or we are cutting you off. None of your commerce is moving across our border except what we need. The store is closed until. Also, walls work.  You have to be a complete Fockin moron to think they don’t. If the argument is they aren’t perfect then you have lost. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

1 minute ago, Pimpadeaux said:

I think the real solution is whining about it and blaming Biden on this low-rent message board.

Have I brought up Biden? But yeah , the volume we have experienced lately is 100 pct his fault.  

[Big Guy 1,421]

1 hour ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

It’s all a scam. Democrats hide behind being humanitarian but what they really want is future voters and to please their corporate/ Wall Street/ donors and the banks . Uniparty republicans also want to please their corporate/ Wall Street donors so they let them in but they don’t want them to get citizenship because they will vote democrat.  So anyone spouting humanitarian nonsense is a sucker. 

All the better to eat us with my dear

"Us" = Powerful White Men

"Powerful White Men" = Those that benefit from hard work & intellect 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

3 minutes ago, Pimpadeaux said:

I think the real solution is whining about it and blaming Biden on this low-rent message board.

I don’t want anyone to be the victim of a crime perpetuated by an illegal, but if someone is going to be I hope it’s you and anyone  else that supports the flouting of our immigration policy. 

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Have I brought up Biden? But yeah , the volume we have experienced lately is 100 pct his fault.  

I don't blame the weather vane, I blame the wind, and there are plenty blowing a lot of hot air on this issue. 

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

3 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I don’t want anyone to be the victim of a crime perpetuated by an illegal, but if someone is going to be I hope it’s you and anyone  else that supports the flouting of our immigration policy. 

When have I ever flouted our immigration policy? All I've said is that a wall is dumb and that providing the manpower to guard border would be insanely expensive.

You and all the other MAGAtards are all whine and no solutions.

[BuckSwope 654]

29 minutes ago, dogcows said:

We already have plenty of H1B visas, so I agree. I think we need a guest worker program with a pathway to citizenship for those who want it. Some might just want to be guest workers for a period of time, so allow for that.

Part of the reason for inflation is not enough workers. If we allow more workers to immigrate, that would alleviate the labor shortage. We could re-evaluate the numbers allowed year-by-year depending on our needs, with a certain minimum we never go below.

Finally, we have pretty low birth rates. So if we want our country (and its economy) to grow, we need to allow more immigration.

Unless Republicans change their xenophobic tune, this won’t happen. Any Dem in a close race won’t risk trying to fix it either, fearful of the ad campaign the R’s will mount if they do.

The bolded is such a good idea.   I would guess many just want to make some extra money for the family back home.  Hell, a lot just end up sending the money home when they get here anyway.   IMO it would naturally decrease the numbers who stay here because many would prefer to live there.   Also, if we make staying here part of the deal, it just makes it more likely the rest of their family is coming too, instead of them going back to their family if they choose.  

The rest of the post also gets to information we more of and open discussions about.    I think the shut down the border people are nuts, because it's my understanding that the stats reflect what you posted - our birthrates are dropping and we still need the workers.   But we also can't ignore it or pretend that there isn't an upper limit to what we can accept and process.    Like with many issues, I think most of the country lies in the middle of those extremes, but the political party enact those outlier positions, very noticeably in the last 4-5 years.  

[BuckSwope 654]

14 minutes ago, Pimpadeaux said:

When have I ever flouted our immigration policy? All I've said is that a wall is dumb and that providing the manpower to guard border would be insanely expensive.

You and all the other MAGAtards are all whine and no solutions.

Oh they have a solution - you are supposed to house 20 migrant families. 

[MDC 7,881]

I blame the US businesses that knowingly hire illegals and the pitifully weak punishment for hiring illegals more than I blame Mexicans for crossing the border. I’d start by upping the potential punishment to the point where it’s not worth it to hire illegals. 

US consumers would also have to accept higher prices for services / products that right now hire a lot of illegals. Good luck with that.

[JustinCharge 2,397]

oh its far too late.  Russia has smuggled in small nukes across that border.

[wiffleball 4,797]

What I find incredibly funny is Mexicans are getting pissed off that Americans are moving into Mexico and gentrifying the place. LOL

[KSB2424 3,173]

Start by taking the Welcome Home sign down.