DeSantis and his stupid laws

[Hardcore troubadour 14,934]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Why do people want to leave small towns?

No, rural schools? 

[RLLD 4,143]

1 minute ago, TimHauck said:

Yes, I believe the biggest factor in kids' school performance is the environment outside of the school, so to really solve the problem you need to improve that moreso than improving the school. Here was a post I made when there was a similar discussion in a different thread:

 

 

 

Agree compeletly. I would like to see church groups, community groups and to a lesser extent local government get more involved in an incentive-driven approach.  No hand outs or give aways, but instead empowerment through employment, engagement and offerings around education and training.  Fix it from the roots....  focus on families, incentivizing the family unit and community involvement.

[Wade Garrett 155]

26 minutes ago, TheNewGirl said:

What?!

Yes they do. they have to follow an IEP if there is one on file.

I am starting to believe you don't know much about private schools. 

Unless you're talking about some elite private school with a history with the ivy's, private schools don't have close to the resources for students that public schools do.  Not even close.  Private schools are taught by the bottom of the barrel teachers with little aide support.  If your kid has special needs, yank them from private schools and put them in public.  The comparison won't be close. 

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

2 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

No, rural schools? 

I think it's a lot of factors.  I think the biggest is the younger generations are leaving small towns which means there are fewer students.  We're seeing more small town schools close and more schools open in the middle of nowhere in order to service multiple small towns.  I remember when every small town had it's own elementary school but most have closed now.

[Hardcore troubadour 14,934]

3 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Unless you're talking about some elite private school with a history with the ivy's, private schools don't have close to the resources for students that public schools do.  Not even close.  Private schools are taught by the bottom of the barrel teachers with little aide support.  If your kid has special needs, yank them from private schools and put them in public.  The comparison won't be close. 

No special needs, including the ones with behavioral issues are allowed.  

[Hardcore troubadour 14,934]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I think it's a lot of factors.  I think the biggest is the younger generations are leaving small towns which means there are fewer students.  We're seeing more small town schools close and more schools open in the middle of nowhere in order to service multiple small towns.  I remember when every small town had it's own elementary school but most have closed now.

So what does a voucher have to do with the problem that already exists? Why would people want to leave a good school that’s not overcrowded? 

[TBayXXXVII 2,484]

59 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

You're right, but my point is the kids that stay out of trouble, get good grades, and have parents that care more about their future are more likely to be from higher income families.

Do you consider lower middle class to be a "higher income" family?  If so, then I can't say I agree with you.... completely.

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

So what does a voucher have to do with the problem that already exists? Why would people want to leave a good school that’s not overcrowded? 

From what I've read, public schools will not be getting as much money as they need.  This leads to positions being cut, programs being dropped and possibly more students per teacher.

[Hardcore troubadour 14,934]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

From what I've read, public schools will not be getting as much money as they need.  This leads to positions being cut, programs being dropped and possibly more students per teacher.

Yeah but why would people want to take their kids out of the schools? 

[TimHauck 2,619]

5 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Do you consider lower middle class to be a "higher income" family?  If so, then I can't say I agree with you.... completely.

Are they the higher income families from that school?  

[TBayXXXVII 2,484]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

To your last point, don’t you think that parental issues are largely about society, race and economics? I’d argue that it’s all intertwined. 

No, I don't.  I think the vast majority of those people are their own worst enemy.  I think they're lazy, make poor decisions, and listen to rhetoric that enables them to feel entitled to be coddled by society.  It's not a secret.  It's not a conspiracy.  The Brookings Institute did a study that found that if you graduate high school, get a full-time job, and don't have a child before you're married, you're 80% more likely to NOT be poor.  All 3 of those things are controlled by every individual person... it's more true today than ever before because of the number of jobs that are out there that are unfilled.

I think "society, race, and economics" is an excuse, not a reason.

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

3 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Yeah but why would people want to take their kids out of the schools? 

I'm not sure.  I'd have to ask them.

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

1 minute ago, TBayXXXVII said:

No, I don't.  I think the vast majority of those people are their own worst enemy.  I think they're lazy, make poor decisions, and listen to rhetoric that enables them to feel entitled to be coddled by society.  It's not a secret.  It's not a conspiracy.  The Brookings Institute did a study that found that if you graduate high school, get a full-time job, and don't have a child before you're married, you're 80% more likely to NOT be poor.  All 3 of those things are controlled by every individual person... it's more true today than ever before because of the number of jobs that are out there that are unfilled.

I think "society, race, and economics" is an excuse, not a reason.

I think you make a very solid point here.

[TBayXXXVII 2,484]

1 minute ago, TimHauck said:

Are they the higher income families from that school?  

I don't think that matters because they all live in NJ which is a very expensive state to live in.  A child living in a household income of say $75k is NOT a higher income family, regardless of what school they go to.

[TimHauck 2,619]

3 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

I don't think that matters because they all live in NJ which is a very expensive state to live in.  A child living in a household income of say $75k is NOT a higher income family, regardless of what school they go to.

I think it does, because Cumberland County has the lowest median income of any county in the state.   So even if the families getting out of Millville, Bridgeton and Vineland HS's are not "high income" by NJ standards, they are more likely to be the higher income families for those particular schools.  So by taking them out of the public schools, you are reducing the average income for those schools, and thus more likely to see a reduction in test scores.

[TimHauck 2,619]

11 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

No, I don't.  I think the vast majority of those people are their own worst enemy.  I think they're lazy, make poor decisions, and listen to rhetoric that enables them to feel entitled to be coddled by society.  It's not a secret.  It's not a conspiracy.  The Brookings Institute did a study that found that if you graduate high school, get a full-time job, and don't have a child before you're married, you're 80% more likely to NOT be poor.  All 3 of those things are controlled by every individual person... it's more true today than ever before because of the number of jobs that are out there that are unfilled.

I think "society, race, and economics" is an excuse, not a reason.

You don't think someone growing up poor as a child has a disadvantage in achieving those 3 things?

[TBayXXXVII 2,484]

1 minute ago, TimHauck said:

I think it does, because Cumberland County has the lowest median income of any county in the state.   So even if the families getting out of Millville, Bridgeton and Vineland HS's are not "high income" by NJ standards, they are more likely to be the higher income families for those particular schools.  So by taking them out of the public schools, you are reducing the average income for those schools, and thus more likely to see a reduction in test scores.

They're not being taken out of public schools.  CCTech is a public school, Gloucester County also has a tech school and so does Atlantic County that allows kids from Salem and Cape May Counties to attend.  They're all public schools, free of charge to everyone.  The kids leaving for school choice are going to other public schools like Delsea, Buena, Washington Twp, and Franklin Twp.

[TBayXXXVII 2,484]

5 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

You don't think someone growing up poor as a child has a disadvantage in achieving those 3 things?

Sure, but I think that's because their parents are douchebags and not because of society itself.  Can there be some that don't have douchebags for parents?  Sure.  But I think we're going majorly disagree on how many that really is.

[TimHauck 2,619]

3 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

They're not being taken out of public schools.  CCTech is a public school, Gloucester County also has a tech school and so does Atlantic County that allows kids from Salem and Cape May Counties to attend.  They're all public schools, free of charge to everyone.  The kids leaving for school choice are going to other public schools like Delsea, Buena, Washington Twp, and Franklin Twp.

Sorry, was referring to those 3 specific schools you mentioned.

[TimHauck 2,619]

9 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Sure, but I think that's because their parents are douchebags and not because of society itself.  

Could be, but my point is moreso that the children of poor parents are at a disadvantage.   Which will likely only be widened by school choice programs because their parents aren't going to care enough to enroll them in such programs.

[TBayXXXVII 2,484]

14 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Sorry, was referring to those 3 specific schools you mentioned.

Yeah, so was I.  Cumberland County didn't reduce the money going to those schools, they increased the school tax to pay for CCTech.  No one left to go to a private school, that wasn't already.  The enrollment for CCTech is around 1k, which is on par with Millville and about 50% smaller than Bridgeton, but about 2.5x smaller than Vineland.  Odds are that the bulk of the kids are from Vineland, that are going to CCTech.  There are definitely some from Millville, but I'd venture to say that Bridgeton has the smallest representation.  Again though, none of those schools got less money because of CCTech.

CCTech opened in 2016.  For example, Vineland... for the school year of 2015-2016 (the year before CCTech opened), Vineland's school budget was at $198.6M (of which 80% came from the state).  For the upcoming year, it's $218M of which, 81.2% is coming from the state, for approximately the same amount of students.  At a $20M increase in spending for the same amount of students after 7 years, they're clearly not being affected by money.

[TBayXXXVII 2,484]

36 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Could be, but my point is moreso that the children of poor parents are at a disadvantage.   Which will likely only be widened by school choice programs because their parents aren't going to care enough to enroll them in such programs.

Oh, I don't disagree with that the kids of poor parents are at a disadvantage, but I don't think restricting school choice hurts them.  In fact, I'd even argue that school choice helps them.  Why?  Because it keeps the teacher/student ratio down.  Kids who have a harder time learning, benefit from having more time with the teacher.  The more kids in your school equals less time for each kid.  I'd even argue that it would be even worse because teachers will gravitate more towards the better students and would be more likely to neglect the kids who are struggling.  What I think hurts the kids more from the crappy parents is their lack of putting a focus on education.

What I like about the Tech schools here are that it mitigates the lazy/crappy parent affect.  The Tech schools are public schools... all you have to do is test for it to get in.  That helps the kids of the crappy parents because the kids take the tests in 8th grade.  Every kid gets a test.  You don't have to register, sign up, or apply... you just take the test.  If you get in, then your in.  You get on the bus in the morning just like every other kid, and go to school.  The parents don't really have to do anything.

[TimHauck 2,619]

1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Oh, I don't disagree with that the kids of poor parents are at a disadvantage, but I don't think restricting school choice hurts them.  In fact, I'd even argue that school choice helps them.  Why?  Because it keeps the teacher/student ratio down.  Kids who have a harder time learning, benefit from having more time with the teacher.  The more kids in your school equals less time for each kid.  I'd even argue that it would be even worse because teachers will gravitate more towards the better students and would be more likely to neglect the kids who are struggling.  What I think hurts the kids more from the crappy parents is their lack of putting a focus on education.

What I like about the Tech schools here are that it mitigates the lazy/crappy parent affect.  The Tech schools are public schools... all you have to do is test for it to get in.  That helps the kids of the crappy parents because the kids take the tests in 8th grade.  Every kid gets a test.  You don't have to register, sign up, or apply... you just take the test.  If you get in, then your in.  You get on the bus in the morning just like every other kid, and go to school.  The parents don't really have to do anything.

That's great if the parents don't actually have to do anything for the kids to get in.

But didn't you just say in your last post that the enrollment at Vineland was about the same as several years back, so you didn't think the tech school was actually reducing the number of students at Vineland?  That's possible, but it's likely that the median family income is going down and as you said earlier, it's probably becoming a higher % minority.

[TBayXXXVII 2,484]

Just now, TimHauck said:

That's great if the parents don't actually have to do anything for the kids to get in.

But didn't you just say in your last post that the enrollment at Vineland was about the same as several years back, so you didn't think the tech school was actually reducing the number of students at Vineland?  That's possible, but it's likely that the median family income is going down and as you said earlier, it's probably becoming a higher % minority.

Yeah, the way the Tech school is being handled is a good thing for everyone, I'm actually surprised.

Yes, currently VHS has about the same enrollment as the year before CCTec opened, but there was a drop in between, though not a big one.  I'm guessing that's probably the same for most school districts?   But CCTech pulls from the entire county and only has 1k students, so while there are probably more kids from Vineland who go there, they may not be the majority of the whole.  Vineland has a high Hispanic count because of the farming.  I think it would be foolish to not think that there's a constantly growing Hispanic population because of that.  So yes, it's possible to that the student body's family income is lower.  But, there's not less money going to the school because over 81% of the budget comes from the state and 6% from DC.  Only 13% is local.  The vast majority of the local tax money is coming from East Vineland, which is highly populated with wealthy white people.  So, even though less than 20% of the VHS student body is white, they're still carrying the local heavy lifting.

Vineland has a LOT of Section 8 housing.  That number grows every year... it probably accounts for why the school enrollment isn't much lower than it was in 2016, and probably confirms your thought that the median income is going down.  But like I said, not much is local tax money.

[jonmx 2,424]

On 8/7/2023 at 6:45 AM, TimHauck said:

But it’s OK if they marry their students as soon as they graduate and turn 18, got it.

You are learning.   

[TimHauck 2,619]

23 minutes ago, jonmx said:

You are learning.   

OK groomer

[jerryskids 6,567]

On 8/7/2023 at 12:06 PM, Hawkeye21 said:

The new voucher system.

I'll add that rich people already had a "voucher" system -- just eat the tax cost and pay to send their kids to a private school anyway.  Vouchers open private schools up to a lot more (and less wealthy) people.

 

[Hardcore troubadour 14,934]

Here in the suburbs of NY we pay a separate school tax from our property tax. Is that how the rest  of you do it? 

[Strike 5,186]

4 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Here in the suburbs of NY we pay a separate school tax from our property tax. Is that how the rest  of you do it? 

No.  In a lot of places it's baked in to property taxes.

[jonmx 2,424]

3 hours ago, TimHauck said:

OK groomer

You are a fuking dumbazz.  If an 18-year old is old enough to have their balls cut off or their breasts cut off, they certainly are old enough to date people who are older.  At some point kids grow up.  That is not grooming moron.  You bastards are the ones who want to do perverted things to young kids and get upset when a movie exposes bow effing evil you bastards are. 

[squistion 1,952]

31 minutes ago, jonmx said:

You are a fuking dumbazz.  If an 18-year old is old enough to have their balls cut off or their breasts cut off, they certainly are old enough to date people who are older.  At some point kids grow up.  That is not grooming moron.  You bastards are the ones who want to do perverted things to young kids and get upset when a movie exposes bow effing evil you bastards are. 

So eloquent as usual. 

[Mike Honcho 5,097]

 

 

Quote

 

Florida’s Department of Education approves classroom use of videos produced by a conservative group that denies climate change.

Florida’s Department of Education has approved the classroom use of material from the Prager University Foundation, which produces videos education experts say distort science, history, gender and other topics. And those researchers fear that the nation’s third-largest state has opened a door that will help spread the videos to classrooms in other states.

 

An eight-minute video, “Poland: Ania’s Energy Crisis,” exemplifies how PragerU introduces climate denialism to children by subtly attacking established science and the people concerned about global warming.

In the video, teenager Ania is concerned about climate change because of what she learned at school. Climate-denial talking points are introduced almost verbatim in the trusted voice of Ania’s mother and father.

Ania’s parents tell her that the climate has always cooled and warmed — “long before carbon emissions were a factor” — and that climate action is pointless until China and India cut their emissions. Ania also hears that renewable energy is unreliable and too expensive.

Ania repeats her parents’ claims in class and is shunned by her teacher and classmates. Her sadness lifts, however, when her grandfather tells her about life under Nazism in World War II. Ania feels empowered because her grandfather says “fighting oppression always takes courage.”

 

 

[thegeneral 2,910]

Ronald is captaining the SS Turd Bucket.

Still has the debates, maybe Donald strokes out during one of his pep rallies. But big, big trouble for this dude.

[BuckSwope 654]

22 hours ago, jonmx said:

You are a fuking dumbazz.  If an 18-year old is old enough to have their balls cut off or their breasts cut off, they certainly are old enough to date people who are older.  At some point kids grow up.  That is not grooming moron.  You bastards are the ones who want to do perverted things to young kids and get upset when a movie exposes bow effing evil you bastards are. 

You are trying so hard to get around you saying OK to grooming.   It's not the 18 year old deciding at 18 to date a teacher that is the grooming, it's the teacher interacting with the student while they were underage that helped the 18 think it's ok to date their teacher when they turned 18.   You know, the grooming.  

[The Real timschochet 6,421]

What a joke Florida’s education is becoming: 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/26/us/new-college-of-florida-chaos-reaj/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/25/us/florida-flagler-county-schools-black-assembly/index.html

Not that this couldn’t have been predicted. This is what happens when conservative idiots try to interfere with educators. Oh well. 

[seafoam1 2,803]

3 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

What a joke Florida’s education is becoming: 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/26/us/new-college-of-florida-chaos-reaj/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/25/us/florida-flagler-county-schools-black-assembly/index.html

Not that this couldn’t have been predicted. This is what happens when conservative idiots try to interfere with educators. Oh well. 

This is some serious educatiom 

 

[Hardcore troubadour 14,934]

3 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

What a joke Florida’s education is becoming: 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/26/us/new-college-of-florida-chaos-reaj/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/25/us/florida-flagler-county-schools-black-assembly/index.html

Not that this couldn’t have been predicted. This is what happens when conservative idiots try to interfere with educators. Oh well. 

God forbid they want the black kids to have better grades. They should just not educate them like Baltimore and every other blue city shithole. 

[TimHauck 2,619]

13 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

What a joke Florida’s education is becoming: 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/25/us/florida-flagler-county-schools-black-assembly/index.html

Holy sh1t that’s bad, particularly since they included all blacks without checking to see how each was performing

[seafoam1 2,803]

37 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Holy sh1t that’s bad, particularly since they included all blacks without checking to see how each was performing

Yeah, you wouldn't want to hold a black student accountable for their grades. 

[TimHauck 2,619]

4 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Yeah, you wouldn't want to hold a black student accountable for their grades. 

If they wanted the correct audience, they should have included all of the students with poor performance regardless of race. This isn’t rocket surgery